Tbi-MAX

im in the process of beginning to tune, and really did not know where to start.. i read the stickies and stuff, so things are a little clearer.. but what is the 1st thing i do?

I notice that questions were short in this section, but i wanted to know if I can ask all my tuning related questions in this 1 thread??

in reference here is my build thread.. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...oker-plus.html
I have tried locally at PCM4Less to get this combo tuned, but it has come down to me doing the job myself.. Alvin got it nice and close with the SBC throttle body, but the BBC throttle body, seems to have got him stuck.. as a matter even after the SBC tb tune, the engine would still chug/pause when i WOT, then haul **** afterwards... (its just the small stuff why I decided to jump in and tune myself)

i was told to do it myself i need to get the Ostrich, ALDL cable, fuel gauge, & a Wideband..

the pcm 7427 pcm i believe...

my 1st question is where do i find all the things i need to order? and is it anything that I am missing? also i never used a WB02, can i install it in the tail pipe? or must i weld another bung... or just replace the NB02 with the WB02?

also links to the parts would be more than helpful!!

liquidh8

go to www.moates.net. You can get your hardware there. Then get tunerpro to modify you bin files. There is a wealth of info on this message board. I went from not drivable to running great, but after all this time, I still don't have it perfect.

Tbi-MAX

well at least its 1 guy trying to help.. thanks.. i dont know if this is the right or the wrong section.. i couldnt delete my thread..



anyways, i did go to moates, and i still do not know what to order.. the 2 things that makes sense to order are the Ostrich $175 and the WB02 they sell for $80.00

the other parts, are sort of confusing, as to what i need.. and it seems like help is hard to get..

comp

lurking here

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I have my NB in the L ext pipe right after the collector. I have my WB in the R ext pipe but about 12-18 further back in the ext stream. I did this as I thought the failure of the sensor was heat related. Since it lasted a whole season it appears I was correct.

You can place it at ext pipe outlet as there is an adapter that can be used to do so. That may be more commonly used to tune multiple cars.

I have mine wired ign on sensor on. fuel pump off sensor off. starter on sensor off. engine running sensor on. that format seems to help sensor life. my install is permanent.

Tbi-MAX

my setup will be permanent.. and it will ONLY be ON when the engine is running, ill wire that up easy, as i am a electrician.

but its the individual parts i need to order, i am still confused about.. I have the 7427pcm... i was told if i buy a wb02 i need to buy a controller as well.. its like all these hidden things i need.. and this is exactly why i am trying to get a list of what ALL i need to start tuning!

so far its nearing near 500$ plus.. something isnt right!

titchener

TBI-

You don't have to get the WB setup right away to start tuning, all you need is:

TunerPro RT from: http://tunerpro.markmansur.com

and the $0D .ads and .xdf files for your ECM from: http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/downloadBinDefs.htm

It looks to me like the best setup for your ECM would be the
APU1 AutoProm Package: USB Version from moates.net, it does the logging, chip burning/reading and emulation (so you don't need the Ostrich) but I'd check with Craig at Moates, he'll set you straight on the best setup.

Once you have that setup, its best to start first getting a good idle, then working your way up through part throttle operation, first no load, then light load, then medium load. This is all in closed loop so you don't need a WB O2 sensor for this part of the tuning phase, the ECM will be adjusting for 14.7, and you'll be making VE table adjustments to get your fuel table correct. After this phase you can start tweaking the AE settings by "seat of pants" to get a good response when you open the throttle.

You should be able to find a starting spark advance curve on these forums that is pretty close for your engine, I'd stick that in and not mess with it until later, final spark tuning is best done after your VE curves are close.

This way of tuning will get the car running well for daily driving. The next phase is WOT. If you have some experience tuning carbs by looking at the plugs and seat of pants feel you can actually tune this phase without the wideband 02, but its a lot easier with the WB. The WB also helps get your AE right. The most cost effective WB is the Innovate LC-1. You don't have to buy the display for it, you can use your laptop for that. Another good unit is the Zeitronix ZT-2 I like this one because it has a higher sampling rate than the LC-1, but it costs more

So if $ is tight, hold off on the WB until you get the part throttle tune right, just don't pound the gas peddle yet.

Paul T.

Tbi-MAX

Someone who final understands! This is exactly the answer I was looking for, I just need to get it drivable at 1st... then at a later date I can get a WB & control, and perfect the tune.. plus I can even do that part, when I get it dynoed for numbers as well!

I just hope I can get more help like this, cause I will have LOTS of questions... Im very intrested in the AutoProm now...

oldred95

http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...roducts_id=41I might suggest getting a couple more chips (four maybe 5 total) while you're at it just incase you break some legs off the chips from time to time (very easy to do.)The chips:http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...ducts_id=39The chip burner:http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...ducts_id=48The ALDL cable:http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...=127Everything I've bought from Craig has been top notch quality. Its so nice to be able to just plug in and it all works and always works.

titchener

TBI, just keep in mind I'm not familiar with your particular ECM (I have a Caprice), so I would definitely send an email to Craig at Moates to find out what he recommends as the best logging/burning/emulating setup for you.

I started out with just the ALDL cable and an old chip burner I had already, which is the cheapest way to go, but popping chips in and out gets old real fast, so a system that includes an emulator is highly recommended.

Paul T.

oldred95

For a beginner you don't need an emulator or a wideband although they are handy at times. Fast said if you don't know what you are doing an emulator is a good way to get yourself stranded if you forget what you changed that fecked it all up. Really the only time I would really want one is for tuning spark and AE but I've done without. You can tune pretty well with a narrow band 02 as well. Once you get into open loop tuning and get nit picky then you'll want a wideband but you are far from that point. Either way I'd go with the PLX unit. Thats what I'm going to get when I can afford it.TBI-Max, if you get what I linked that should be everything you need as long as your laptop has a working USB port. We have the same PCM, same basic truck, just different configuration.

Tbi-MAX

oldred, wow I didnt realize you could get started that easily.. thanks for that option! 1 Question... when I burn the 1st chip this process, how far will it be off? i dont want to have to burn thousands of chips...

yea, for the 7427pcm I will need the Ostrich emulator... I am waiting for him to respond back to my email. I understand chip popping, pulling over, parking, shutting the engine off, then burning, then restarting.. must get old!

I dont want the Autoprom, as its burning chips as well, NOT a emulator.

Well ill keep that in mind as well, but i was just punching some numbers.. this is what i got so far.. if i get all the things you said I should the total comes up to be 220$ burning the traditional way.. no WB or emulator..

Now when I did the Ostrich2.0 & ALDL Xtreme cable I come up with 255$ so thats a 35$ difference, so i am going with the emulator for easy use.... also I was told by a good source! that I can use a WB02 without a controller! I just need to buy the sensor and tap it straight to the TBI computer. Then from the ALDL cable I bought I can read the WB readings! so thats an additional 80$

so for 334$ I can own a WB02, have the Ostrich, and ALDL cable.. this is the route im going!

oldred95

Are you serious? There is no possible way it could even remotely be right on the first chip. You have to establish a base line and build off of that. I started with the stock .BIN and went from there. I'd hate to guess how many chips I've burnt but yes its probably in the thousands range. It takes time. I've been at it a year and a half and still playing with it. A lot of the tuning is redundant. Change one thing and it changes another and you have to go back and compensate for this or that. It just takes time.

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Get another source.
Sorry, Not possible.

Tbi-MAX

after installing TunerProRT last night, and looking at each table... i see all the things ill be able to change.. but it seems to be tons of trial and error. all the tables were 0 as it was not connected to the aldl

i got the bin file and aldl deffinition from here: http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/downloadBinDefs.htm

so the Ostrich emulator and the Xtreme cable is what I am going to use to get started 1st... the WB02 will wait..

interesting, as you are like the 3rd person who told me that will not work.. but this guy has been tuning and has a very difficult combo, and thats how he uses his WB...

he told me it was a PIN that was not used, that you can wire the wb02 signal into.. then you can use the aldl port and data logging software to read the 02... 7427pcm

either way, im just getting the Ostrich and Xtreme ALDL cable interface to get started.. ill figure out the WB02 stuff by then, if not Ill just buy the WB02 combo sensor and LC1 controller cord at a later date.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I would hold off on the WB till later. And there is no sin in burning/flashing a chip and dropping it in your socket or ZIF. I did not burn a chip every hour. Was more like one per day I drove vehicle and did a datalog(25 min on average) and interpreted log. Once VE was looking good then I believe I burned one an hour after experiencing AE issues/drivability. So a change in AE table and reburn does not take all that much time effort. That is where I spent some time-AE. Not sure what the added cost is for emulator? I will say the ostrich is a temporary as it plugs into the ECU socket. You may need to burn a final chip? I chose not to go Ostrich as I wanted a permanent emulator that is not socketed. I had socket issues at a point in time so I eventually went Prominator after burning dozens of chips.

Keep in mind if you get the underlying VE tables reasonably close the WOT or "PE" is commanded off those tables and or BLM it sees just before the onset of PE. that is reasonably accurate? So if the value in VE table is close to 128 BLM it does the calc and the result is what you commanded for WOT-PE say 12.5/1. I guess it would not hurt to command a bit rich to start say 12.3/1. anyway this is how I did it dday one on dyno. commanded to `12.5 and dyno showed 12.0/1 on WB

91chevz71

how was BLM before PE entry

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

That was three years ago!

I dont think it mattered. I am going out on limb and will suggest the PE calc factors in the BLM in the last cell it sees B4 it goes PE. So if it is 122 or 142 it will make a correction in the calc. my PE ended up rich which was a concern as I had no idea the outcome of the dyno pull. the fact it ended up .50/1 rich may suggest something was off(BPC? VEfueling rich? BLM rich?). the engine was at 5500 rpms with 3.07 gears. I forget the speed but it was a bit scary. computers are amazing things.

Tbi-MAX

combo:
7427pcm
383 cubes inches
454 BBC tbi
90# BBC injectors
VAFPR: set @ 16psi - (will use vac if needed)
9:7.1 compression ratio
1625 RPM stall converter
vortec heads with z28 springs
.442/.465 214/224 @50 with 112lsa
headman longtube headers
3" custom exhaust system (no kitty)

tools:
p3 laptop
ostrich 2.0
aldl usb datacord


i dont think im missing anything

now my good buddy is working on a .bin for me... and im sure its going to be darn close.. im going to edit it and go from there if i like it. i will always have a copy of that and improve on it the more i get into the process of dataloging etc....

but the question i have now.... is if i want to start from scratch where do i get a .bin file to start with? that matches my combo? and what is the 1st thing i need to do?

i do not have a reader, so i cant read Alvin.bin just yet... (pcm4less dyno tune)

with the ostrich, i can switch to my "gas".bin, back and forth with my buddies bin?

i want the bin i start with to be soley gas mileage reasons... and then my buddies bin i can edit more for performance...

how many of you have different .bins you switch back and forth to? or different chips from different reasons?

sorry for the newbie questions.

getsideways

you can download a bin named "0099BJYL" $0D bin on moates website. its from a 95 auto 350 with 3.42 rear end, truck or tahoe i think. thats what i started with when i did my 305 to 350 swap. just need to make the appropriate cylinder volume, injector flowrate, and rpm/vss adjustments for your rear end ratio. but with the ve in stock form it will only run good enough to start logging, maybe worse. for me, getting it drivable was the easy part. fine tuning is the long part. if you arent going to have a wideband hooked up, be very careful with wide open pulls. 90 lbers at 16 psi might go static before 5000rpm on your 383. you will need to do some plug checks to see whats going on.