liquidh8

So here is my latest snapshot 1/4 mile from the EBL. BTW, when I first got the EBL I datalogged while at Atco raceway and I must say it is dead accurate on e.t., MPH is +/- 1-3, but my speedo is quirky so that may be the reason.

Here is a snapshot from a WOT run on a deserted road. 4000 lbs w/me, street trim, 17inch street tires, low 2k rpm launch.

I am trying to get the lean spike then rich dip out of it when I stomp the throttle, it is killing my 60ft time. These 2 log files are better, but it goes real rich, which is hurting me. The afr is now like 15.2 on the lean spike, but goes to high 10 low 11 afr on the rich bog. This engine doesn't like a reall rich afr. I have since took the same bin, (ve within +/- 1/2 on the last 4 days learning, yay!) and the timing is 29 degree total. I have to fix a few exhuast leaks I think are giving my some very erratic knock counts.

So what I did was take the current bin, and start out with the supplied EBL.bin ae tables, I turned my pe enable up to 90%tps, and I am trying again from scratch, I may have screwed up what i have? who knows. I also think the wb value in the dump file is like 4-6 lines lagging. Because if I adjust the dtps/dmap table to the value when the wb says it's rich/lean, I make it worsti.e, don't adjust what i an trying to adjust.

The injectors are 90's, fp is 23 WOT w/vafpr. I have been playing with the bpc filter, I had it to like 75 at one point, but have put it down to 40 or so. I remember reading somewhere, I think it was RBob, saying the factory vafpr is a bit slow, not as fast as say the aeromotive unnt Dom is using. I thought this filter could be helping screw me up, but I can't seem to see/feel where it is best

Any thoughts?

:edit: I have a question on the tps/map ae filters. From the posts i read i gather this is a time thing, meaning that the lower the number, the longer the AE lasts, and the higher the number, the less it lasts. Is this correct?

Or is this affecting the delay of the AE, like making it come on faster, or slower? Reason I ask is if I stomp the go pedal, I'll get a lean (19 afr) spike, then immediately followed by 10 to 11 afr and climbs up. I it is a lean spike, the rich bog, the cleans up. I have the PE enable to 90%, so PE isn't making it richer. I have been dropping the AE tps enable, now at about 1%.

Any input/suggestions here guys? This is the main part Peeing me off. I seem to get everything else ok.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Did you ever run the tune without the VAFPR hooked up?. If so what are your observations of b4 and after? idle and AE and general drivability. I have a manual. WOT is no concern.

I never got around to running mine yet i was told to get on the VAFPR program as a great benefit.

liquidh8

I had ran the big injectors without the VAFPR before I got the EBL. and it was a bear to tune, and idled like crap with 18-22 psi fuel pressure. It runs soooo much better with the VAFPR, idles @ 725 with the cam smoothly, I don't wan't to take it off, lol. Ultimately I think I will got to an external, something that is boost referenced. So I guess I would have to try and tune for a set FP from 0-100 KPA. Unless the make a regulator that is vacuum/boost referenced.

I have my VE tables, as i showed in another post, at about 88 in the 4800/100 KPA table, peak torque for this engine I guess. I prolly could set the FP at say 20 PSI, and return the VE tables, since I am continuosly playing with the VE, I shouldn't take real long.

Most of my tip in and driveablity seems fine. every once in a while it get a quirk and try and tweek it. But the go pedal stomp lean/rich thing is driving me crazy, I can't seem to get it.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Yea I looked at the first of two and see the PE-WOT going rich. As RPM's climb the A/F goes rich almost linear.

What is your PE table looking like?. I dont have it at office but I thought it is referenced to RPM. Can you move the 4800-6000 RPM a .50 point leaner?

Is the air cleaner restrictive?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Another thought. The BPC vs VAC where VAC is zero(MAP 100) or Vac is 5 and 10. What if you increase the BPC to what is in the VAC 15 column? So Vac 15-10-5-0 are all equal as far as BPC? Maybe the VAFPR is doing something to A/F? Just a thought?

liquidh8

The air cleaner is a 4 inch open element K&N, I have the hypertech soupbowl, and a 4 inch cowl hood. My MAP at WOT is like 98-100, My commanded PE is 12.9 for all RPM's, I guess I could fundge it some up top to keep it from going too rich. Below 12.5 afr and it is noticably slower, starts breaking up, and it was slower at the track. If you look at the log, when the afr drops, the RPM's stop climbing so fast.

I didn't want to fudge the PE vs RPM table, it would be nice to get the numbers rit for it you know? Or maybe I can make the PE afr higher for the lower RPMs? like the 800 to 2k rpm make it like 13.2? What does yours look like?

liquidh8

I thought about that and tried that a while back, jsut flatteneing the the 0-5-10 VAC tables, to see if it would make a difference and as far as the dumplog was concerned, it didn't. When I would stomp it, it would got to 0 vac/100kpa right away, get lean right away, the go 10 afr rich for a second (10/2 lines in the dump log) It would suck to say "hey, nothing you can do, deal with it" you know what I mean. I think I am missing something here in the calibration, and once I figure it out it would be great.

I used the ebl.bin AE tables in my current bin, just dropped som MAP and the cts AE tables, did a log and got it down to 13.6/13.7 for a 1/4 log. 0-60 and 60 ft are still hampered by m issues.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I have the aeromotive unit but never used the VAFPR function. My PE is commanded to 12.7/1 for all RPMs if I recall but I see in WOT WB logs around 12.3-12.4. But in all honesty I never logged WOT past 85 mph. Car never been to track. I suspect it is the BPC vs VAC table that needs a tweek. I would suggest it is OK to tweek that table a bit vs the RPM/PE. Be nice to have a log of fuel pressure in you current logs. OR BPW.
GM VAFPR is a mechanical devise that possibly does not play fair. Not sure how nicely it responds to a WOT drop in MAP. Maybe it is not doing what we expect?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Quote: I used the ebl.bin AE tables in my current bin.

There is no way I can do that. 80 lbs inj's with 19 lbs FP currently.

Mine are waaayy less. I think the AE/TPS are maxed(50%) at 550 usec from 10% 122 usec.

I will say same on AE-MAP. That is enough to provide considerable AE on heat soaked manifold. Are you seeing excessive manifold wetting? Seems that should flash off however? Maybe shorten AE duration?

liquidh8

I had had the MAp AE up high, and the TPS AE lower. So with ths incarnation of the bin, I have been lowering the MAP AE, and raising the TPS AE. I think this is working better for now. The harderst problem I am having is trying to log the AE events after 2000 RPM, so I can get the tables right, the use the RPM addeds to fix the low RPM AE.

In the last bin, I was raising the tps/map ae filters, this is shortening them right? But I don't know how to tell if it is really shortening it. Can you see it in the log? Do I have to move the filter values alot to see a difference?

From first post

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I believe you are correct on the filters comment. My experience was that it best to work lean to rich. I found that I was OK on AE except right at 2400-2800 on a moderate accelleration I was going lean (bog). adding AE.RPM eventually cured that. I added in amounts till it enrichened sufficiently. that event was specically RPM related for me. Adding AE MAP at that MAP in log (which I first did) was no help. AE is probably most difficult to tune as there are variables of manifold temperature as well as intake air temp that affect it.

liquidh8

The fastest I logged was to to top of 3rd gear, about 109/110 MPH, then I get out of it. I have played with the BPC vs VAC table, but when I start playing with that, other than WOT, the VE table gets all screwy. I had my autometer FP hooked up to the EBL, but it wasn't accurate at all. I had that somewhere in another post. If I could adjust the output in the EBL for FP, I could make it the same as the gague and get an accurate log.

I had noticed that in the TPI bins, there is a % change added for PE vs RPM. Seems to me it is a lower PE AFR at lower RPMs, then gets richer as the r's increase. So I moved my PE vs RPM table to read 13.6 @ 800, 13.4 @ 1200, 13.2 @ 1400, and 12.9 from 1600 on up. ( i think those rpm's are right) and I will try that. Though it may not make a difference since my launch rpm is anywhere from 2100 to 2700 RPMs, I just wanted to take it slow and go from there.

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

Do you feel the stumble from the lean spike? I've found that there will always be a lean spike on a throttle stomp that shows on the WB whether or not I actually feel it or not. I've just told myself that it's the wideband updating itself faster than the computer can compensate for the throttle opening with AE, whether or not thats true I don't know....

liquidh8

Yes, I can feel it, it's almost a pop, like whaaa_______, then rich, wubwub then it's screaming through first-second-most of third, and as I lean out the AFR in the upper RPMS, it is getting better.


Latest 1/4 log

Igot out of it a little over 12.5 seconds, so the last secon and a half I was coasting.

liquidh8

Update:

Ok, So I started out with the ebl AE tables with my current bin, then i dropped the MAP AE significantly. TPS AE is higher. The CTS AE tables I had to drop at all the lower temps. With the filters, I made the numbers LOWER, and closer together, this seems to help. Is this shortening the AE? Making it happen sooner? What would happen if I make all the entries in the filter table 0?


I had the PE set to come in at 90% tps, I dropped to 65%. But it still seems that when the PE is engaged at the earlier tps, the AFR is rich. i.e., the PE overlaps th AE event, and makes it rich, like 10.8 to 11.5 AFr, and the car is sluggish. Now, If I leave the PE TPS @90, the stomp the gas to about 80% TPS, let the AE end, and pless it the rest of the way to enable PE, it never bogs and the AFR doesn't get all rich. Am I missing something here? It seems with the added AE fuel, and the added PE fuel, it is too rich.

Redoing all the AE from scratch, i have made more progress the past few days in dialing it in, the I had with a years worth of novice tuning. I just had things so messed up i think, I could never get the AE right. Now I am so close I can taste it. I am just missing something here I think.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

A lower filter value increases the duration & volume of the AE.

The delta TPS (dTPS) AE is faster responding then the delta MAP AE.

Use as little delta MAP (dMAP) AE as possible.

It isn't unusual to have more AE PW at lower dTPS values then at higher dTPS values.

The AE vs RPM compensation table can be used to reduce the volume of AE. It may be that at the mid-RPM range the AE can be reduced.

RBob.

liquidh8

That is what I have been doing, I have the MAP AE very low, the 0 KPA is the next value from 0, (64?), then 10 kpa is 122, but I had to ramp it up from 30 up, to keep from getting a lean pop from a fast throttle/map change. I am just trying to get these filters right. I guess I should make the filter numbers as high as possible, to keep the AE as short as i can?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

In general the dTPS filter values are higher then the dMAP filter values. This gives a shorter duration to the TPS AE. But with greater PW values for that quick initial burst of AE.

Then the dMAP AE just fills in with a lower AE PW but for a longer period of time.

Have you looked at a dump log to see what kind of dMAP, dTPS, tpsAE, mapAE, and aePW values there is?

May also want to drop back from full throttle stomps and do 1/3 & 1/2 throttle quick press & hold. Need to work from the lower end of the MAP/TPS PW tables and once they are OK move to the higher deltas of those tables.

You may find that the high dTPS areas of the PW table don't need to be as high as the lower dTPS areas of the table.

RBob.

liquidh8

RBob, thanx for the input. I've been slow to realize the statement you just made. I have put the PE enable back to 90%, so I can finish getting the AE right. I had the TPS AE value from 30% tps on up just clibing. The today I had sort of an epiphany, on holley carb's thee is a pump cam that is mounted on the back side of the throtle arm. And at first the cam has a very steep incline, then after a certain amout it dies off. It doesn't keep climbing. You can change cams to have different profiles, but they are all similar in that there is a big pmp shot at first, then it is less as the throttle is opened more. He I am, , tuning the TPS AE in a totally different matter, making it start from zero, then keep climbing higher and higher at an almost constant rate. So what I did was make the AE die off after like 32%, to see if that helps in the areas giing me a hard time. I can't seem to adjust the right area everytime as the Wb output is lagging the actual AE event in the dump log. But I'll keep yous guys informed on how I make out. I'm close.

liquidh8

Just a small update for er'body. I took the AE MAP filter and made the numbers lower, lengthening the AE, just kept looking at the log to make sure it was long enough, cause I did go to far both ways. I kept making the TPS filter numbers higher and higher, so they don't last so long. That is helping with the AFR goping to 10:1 when I stab the throttle, now it is dropping to high 11's AFR. So I am getting there. I had to creep up on the RPM multiplier in the 1800 rpm range, and continue to drop the 800 rpm range. It's a fine line when you are getting close. lol. My map AE is real low at 0, 10, 20 MAP, but ramps up fast for 30 kpa and up. The TPS AE goes up fast upt to 12.5, I have to keep lowering a bit at a time all through 15.6 tp 25 TPS, then I have been raising it higher and higher up to 50 % tps. It is better then before. I dropped it all to get the lean pops out, so It is a matter of making sure I get rid of all the lean conditions going in. The is still work to be done, but I am slowly gettting there.

I've attached a snapshot of all my AE tables.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I will need to reapproach my AE this spring. I never messed with the filters? Stock EBL-Filter. Car is out of storage today and in shop today trying to determine why I lost clutch pressure after a new master and slave cyl back to back install in two years!

anyway. I see you have a lot of AE MAP in tables 50 KPA and up? I have nowhere that much(80 lbs @ 19 lbsfp). Maybe 30% of what you have. I do not have VAFPR. I see your MAP filters 11-18%. Not sure what is in stock bin but I think you said the filter amt is reduced so duration lenghtened. That seems logical for MAP. Interesting. Not sure what I have but I suspect stock EBL.

AE TPS huge #'s compared to me yet I dont have a lean pop and see adequate enrichment on WB log with not nearly as much. I have maybe less than half of that.

what manifiold are you using? I have no heat to my Holley Projection dual plane. Not sure if the runners in it are considered large. I think coolant passes in front of TB across manifold giving some heat. Not sure. Maybe manifold desigh causes variation in AE requirements.

Never dealt with AE coolant although OL AE seems better than CL?

I think AE in a TBI application is difficult. Add to it larger than average intake runners and large injs at reasonably low FP adds to issues.

Season is here(for me)!

liquidh8

I have the bbc tbi, with the VAFPR. Fp is 22 psi @ WOT. The manifold is and unheated GMPP squarbore intake for the vortec heads. I have an open element (4"), the nitrous plate, and an adapter plate. I started playing with the filters, because when the car was cold, the AE was way rich. So I have been tryijng to make the AE event as short as possible.

RBob said the MAp is typically longer, so I left the map filters close to the ebl bin from 80d cts, but made the shorter (higher numbers) from there down. The TPS has been giving me a real hard time. If I left the filters longer, it would get too rich when PE was overlapping AE. So I have been making the filter numbers higher and higher, i.e, shorter, and making the tps AE higher. Since the filter has an effect on the AE amout too, so I guess that is why they are so high. I think the map AE is low at the lower KPA because of the VAFPR, but it seems when I stomp the throttle, and I get a 50+KPA dmap, I get a lean spike/pop. I'm trying to work out whether or not more TPS is needed, of more MAP. I think the MAP is just bandaiding it for now, as I creep up on the TPS AE.


In retrospect, I'm glad I revisted the AE with a fresh mind, as they are far better than they ever were. I can say, I've been trying to take long drives with the engine speed over 2000 rpm, in drive, so I can get accurate numbers in the log. meaning I can make the changes to the MAP and TPS AE tables without worrying about the RPM multiplier. When I am done with that, I can fine tune the RPM multipliers once and for all.


When you have the open loop at colder temp, you're usually commanding a richer AFR, so you shouldn't need that much more AE to keep from going lean. But if you go to closed loop, with the ECM adjusting fueling, it seems it is more critical to get the AE tables right.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Assuming the VAFPR/BWC tables are spot on it should react same as a non VAFPR setup that I am currently using. So that table being correct/optimized one could then deal with the AE confident the FP changes are not interfearing. It was said that I should get with the program and start utilizing VAFPR as it will help drivability. I was hesitant as I was still trying to get my tune optimized B4 I throw another variable at it. Do you know how one determines the values for BPC? I think that Excell document I have will do that for me. I wonder how the change in BPC is inteacting with the AE usec?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Changing the BPC has no affect on the AE. The AE is all PW based, which is why it changes when the injector flow rate is changed.

Note about the clutch slave cylinder: GM had been building them with the seal in backwards. Check with -=Jeff=- (??) at the CF's. IIRC he was the one that found this error.

RBob.

liquidh8

I utilized the BPC vs VAC spreadsheet, same as you have, I know you had emailed me a copy, and I did my VE learns and have it +/- 2 all across. It seems good so far, going from 20degree days to 70 degree days. I played with the IAT vs CTS table some. I think I remember seeing to get the BPC table, and VE tables good so your BLM's aren't all over the place. Then attack the AE tables, since the VE table will affect the AE also.

So what I did was just that, I didn't start playing with the AE again till I got the WB fixed, then the WOT VE/AFR in line, it's now between 12.8 and 13.1 afr, and runs good there, before it was 11.1 AFR. There is no need to be richer then needed.

I can attest to the driveabilty improvements with the VAFPR, even with a stock ecm, it was better then having all the FP all the time.

There is a BPC filter table that needs to be taken care of. If the filter isn't right, then the BPC change will be too fast, or slow, to follow the actual FP change. I have mine at like 39%. The EBL bin was 37.5 I believe. I believe RBob had said that the factory style VAFPR is a little slow to change pressure with the vacuum change, so the filter is needed. I think Dominic said he has his filter up to like 65-75% I think. But he is using an aeromotive unit that responds faster. I tried making the filter value higher, but i couldn't really tell a difference myself, I tried to just look in the log to see how the KPA and the BPC compared to each other. I could be messed up here with this, maybe RBob or someone can add to this?

Here is a link to a thread Dominic started last year
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ght=bpc+filter

Now, if I could get the 0-100 PSi autometer FP guage and sender to display correctly in the WUD, I think I could see if I am good here once and for all. But even with the new EBL WUD update, getting the FP to display eludes me.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I remember that post! I will address the BPC filter as well. On filter ? Higher % means more filter action and slower changes in BPC as FP changes? Or faster? Not sure if I get it. Now I will read the link.

liquidh8

The higher the number, the less filter. IOW, it allows the BPC to change at a faster rate. So if you FP changes real fast, you increase the filter value. If you FP changes real slow, decrease to the filter value, slowing the change of BPC.

I wish there was a concrete way to see the correlation of BPC rate of change to FP rate of change. This would make the easy to set up.

liquidh8

Here are my latest AE tables. I dropped the PE down back to like 63%. I'm trying to adjust when it comes in and overlaps the AE event to keep from getting the rich bog. I tuned the MAP AE with the table "above TPS% double MAP AE" at 100%, so my MAP AE wouldn't get doubled and screw me all up. Then after I think I got it close, (hard in the higher map areas, no big hills around here),I turned it to 63%, so the MAP gets doubled over 63%, I had a lean pop when I stabbed the throttle, since I turned alot of things down. Now I have a very short rich condition in an area or 2, (because of the bdl MAP) but overall I think it is a few adjustments away from being "there".

It sux for lower temp AE adjustments since the car is only cold for 10 minutes, but I log it, and I have to wait to see the changes. When it's @ operating temp, about 85c, Everything is coming in nicely. It is going to take many more logs to get the AE filters and the CTS tables right at the lower operating temps. I'm being **** with these too, it seems it is a fine line with the adjustments here. I figure if I can get the WB to read between 13 AFR to 15 AFR throughout the AE event, I'm good.

Here is a pic of all the current settings.

Anybody have any thoughts, or see and problems with my settings here??

liquidh8

Tuning AE is a bear man!! It seems that when you think you have it right, something else turns up. lol. I'm trying to tune it out. But it when I get rid of lean conditions in areas it ends up too rich.

Question: The RPM and CTS multipliers on affect the TPSAE and the MAPAE correct? The MAP and TPS filters are unaffected by the multipliers?

I just want to make sure I am on the right train of thought here. Like I said, I get on the turnpike and get it OD, and get a lot of good logs of AE events over 2300/2400 RPM, above this and I have to have negetive entries in the RPM AE table, as the AE is too much. Then I use the RPMAE table to increase the AE at the lower RPMS. My tables look different from the supplied EBL.bin, but my RPM and CTS multipliers are much lower. The reason I do it like this is I picked a place where the lowest MAP and TPS AE setting was jsut enough for the engine at that RPM, and tune the multipliers from there.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Reset this back to 100%: "above TPS% double MAP AE." Otherwise it causes more problems then it solves.

The picture is what I'm using on the Firebird. Two areas differ a little. The dTPS% PW comes in a little quicker. And the RPM comp change% has more of a linear slope. Other then that they are similar.

RBob.

liquidh8

Rbob, thanx for posting that up. I see you have the IAC opening fuel table opened, how does this work, and how does it affect AE? I haven't played with this at all. I also had the "above TPS% double MAP AE" at 100% before, and just recently dropped it back to 63%. I'll raise it up and take it from there again. I am trying to make on or two changes at a time to get it right.

But you are right, I see some similarities to you tables, how you have to drop the RPM multiplier and the lower CTS multipliers, I noticed your TPS AE way up there too. I hve a VAFPR so I am thinking that is why my low KPA MAP AE doesn't need to be real high. But after 30KPA I have it ramp up way faster. I also have a very quick climb in TPS AE up to 12.5%, then a dip and it climbs fast again. I guess that would be the VAFPR also. All in all, I am happier with my progress. It is a learning curve, but I think I am making good progress. I haven't bought a new nitrous 'noid yet, and I have the turbo's for it. But until I get a really good handle on tuning the AE, I'm not using either. IOW, If I see it messed up in the log, I want to be able to zero in on the culprit fast, instead of 10 30 minute logs, lol, if that can be done.

:edit: how would I know wher to set the "below tps double MAP threshold" should be set to? Or how to tell if it is off in the log file? You have yours at 18%, mine is still at the setting from the EBL.bin file.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

With the IAC, whenever it is opening fuel can be added. Basically it is like the throttle being opened. Each time the IAC takes between 1 & 2 steps open a fuel pulse is added to the injector PW. The amount of fuel is the calibration parameter in micro-seconds of PW.

Having the "above TPS% double MAP AE" at 100% is important for your setup. That is most likely where the late rich bog is coming from. As you mash the go-pedal eventually that threshold (say at 63% TPS) is exceeded. All of the sudden the MAP AE is doubled. That's a lot of fuel when big injectors are involved.

In response you may pull a lot of AE out. Then the next time you hit the go-pedal it is only to 61% TPS. Now there isn't enough AE.

For the "below tps double MAP threshold" value. It depends upon the cam and whether a stick or auto. With the ratty 108 LSA and a stick the MAP AE has to be kept under control. This is why it is set higher then the stock stuff.

Real easy to have MAP fluctuations in the manifold pressure at low RPM. What I try to do is to set the value so that low RPM & load MAP fluctuations do not keep adding AE. Then as the engine is up to speed & load, allow a smaller dMAP to add AE. This provides the responsiveness at speed/load without the low end richness from excess AE.

Note that this setup is also running a VRFPR.

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Can you explain the AE-MAP filter and the AE-TPS filter? I understand they are coolant based.

So that being said I presume they add AE fuel on cold coolant and reduce AE on warm-hot coolant.

For instance AE-MAP at 0 degC we have about 4%. Does that mean 100%- 4% or 96% of the AE PW? Or say 100degC value is 18. so is that 100%-18% or 82 % of the AE PW? If so why arent the -40C value then 0 and work up from that?

liquidh8

Interesting stuff right there. I too have the VAFPR, and this is something I will look into adjusting. I also looked at the IAC opening with the AE event, to see if it is contributing to either rich/lean conditions. I jacked up the "above TPS dbl MAP AE" back to 100%, and I shortened the TPS filter a bit more. I will be taking it for a ride to work tomorrow and I will see if it is helping any. I am getting close here,

RONNY, from what I understand it is the duration of AE. How long it lasts. When I first started playing with the tables, I moved everything a huge amount to see the effect. I remember RBob saying the TPS should be as short as possible, (makes sense, just like a carb), and the MAP AE would last longer. I am tuning the MAP AE lenght still. At operating temp for my car, about 85c, if I look at the log, or the WUD while driving, I move the throttle a little, to give it some AE, mostly MAP, and I see it get a little rich 14.x AFR, and a split second later it goes to 15.8-16 AFR, then back to 14.8 (w/128BLMS). So I am gathering I need to lengthen the MAP AE filter for that temp to cover that lean spot. The TPS AE I keep shortening, till I get a good AFR without going too rich, when I stab the go-pedal. Now when you lengthen or shorten the AE filters, it affects the amount of AE too. IOW, if I make the filter number bigger (shorter), it also makes the AE PW lower for that same temp.

RBob, could you shed some light on the equation for the AE, like what x what / what = total AE? thanks

RBob

iTrader: (1)

For the first statement above look at what the INT is doing. It may very well be dropping from the initial AE which then causes the lean spot. It is better for the INT to increase a little then to drop any.

The AE starts with the filtered TPS & filtered MAP, which is done at 80 times a second. If the filter is at 22%, then 22% of the new TPS (MAP) is used with the remainder (78%) being from the old TPS (MAP) value. By this the lower the filter % the more the filtered value lags the current value.

This filtered TPS% (MAP) is subtracted from the current TPS% (MAP) value to get the delta. The delta TPS% (MAP) is used to look up the TPS AE PW (MAP AE PW). These two PW values are in the data log dump file, along with the delta TPS/MAP values.

The TPS and MAP AE PW's are added together. Along with any pending IAC fuel.

This total AE value is then compensated for RPM

This new total AE value is then compensated for CTS

The result is then added to the sync fueling PW.

RBob.

liquidh8

It seems that the INT for that area stays the same through the AE event, then a seocnd or so later it rises to 133, then back to 128.



I think I fully understand now. Say at second 1 of the 80 X per/sec, the dTPS% is 9.4 then we will take all of the 1770.02 usec of AE from the TPS AE table, and go thourght the addons, CTS, RPM and what not. Then second 2 of the AE, if the tps was 12.5%, and the filter is 22%, we would take 22% of 1840.03 usec (404.81), and the remaining is 78% of the 1770.02 (1380.62) totaling 1785.43. Then the filter adders. I can see how this blends the AE as the throttle is increased. BUt is the filter number is too slow, we won't get enough AE, so we raise the filter to get the higher/lower value faster, instead of it lagging.

This right?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I'll bet the INT stays locked at 128 through out the AE event? There is an option to have that happen, or to let the INT roam freely during AE. Locking it at 128 is usually better.

Not entirely. The lag filters are just to create the delta TPS% & delta MAP Kpa. The AE PW is only from the lookup using the delta TPS% & MAP.

As the code runs it keeps a running updated value of the filtered TPS% and the filtered MAP KPa. These values will always lag the current TPS%/MAP.

Then in the AE routine this lagged TPS% is subtracted from the current TPS% (same for MAP) to create the delta TPS% and delta MAP (dTPS% & dMAP). If the value is greater then zero we may do a AE PW lookup.

The AE PW lookup is done using the dTPS% or dMAP as the argument.

RBob.

liquidh8

Ok then, I just got a little messed up again. So the lagged AE TPS (MAP) value is subtracted from the actual TPS to get the dTPS? So this would mean if our filter TPS is higher, higher filter %, our delta TPS would get lower?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes, higher filter % for a lower delta TPS%. And the delta TPS% doesn't last as long. This is because the filtered TPS% catches up to the current TPS% quicker.

RBob.

liquidh8

Cool, now I understand. Just today on the ride home from work(I'm home now) I set up the TPS filters a much higer percentage rate, not as much as the ones you posted, but higher. It makes a difference in a good way and bad, the throttle response is much better, I guess because the TPS AE is in a short high burst like the manifold seems to need. But I still have a horrible lean POP under 85 CTS, 16-2000 RPM. I hae to look at the log, but I think I'll be adding a bit more TPS AE in a few spots, 1 or 2, but I will be jacking up the MAP AE in areas. Is there a way to tell in the dump log if I need to change the Filters? I have been doing it blindly and by feel, I'm getting there, but it is taking forever. Do I have to compare the actual MAP change with the dMAP to see if the difference is too much or something?

Thanks for all your replies RBob, I hope others are reading this thread, because this is really getting a good in-depth look at AE filters and how they affect things. I think because I have the hugh high rise (GMPP intake, like the performer RPM), big cam, yadda yadda, It is taking alot of TPS AE to fill the intake, but the car doesn't like it to last long. The MAP is hard to discern, since on the lean pops there is a good deal of TPS and MAP AE being added.

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

How do you lock it at 128?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It is Option Word 1 - Bit 5 - INTae

Set or checked to enable INT reset on an active AE event.


There is another option for INT reset when the BLM cell in use changes.

It is Option Word 1 - Bit 4 - INTbl

When set or checked, the INT is reset to 128 whenever the BLM "cell to use" changes. If at cruise in cell 1 and then lifted, the ECM would change to cell 2. The INT would then also be reset back to 128. Then allowed to continue changing from there.

RBob.

liquidh8

Ok, I am getting it better. RBob, I was wondering if you had a few free minutes to take at look at a datalog? I am posting 2 specific events I cut and pasted into different files.

Right at about 81c temp, 1800-2200 RPM, I have a lean spikle, a log one. But as it warms up alittle more to 84-86c, it doesn't seem to do it. Would raising the Map filter and CTS multiplier at 80c help? would that not affect the settings at 85c. I guess the number used in an average of the temp between 2 settings, like between 80 and 92c. If I raise 80c multiplier, I would have to lower the 92c multiplierto get the same number at 84-85c right? It seems to be decent at 85c. I dunno, I'll post em up.

guys

RBob

iTrader: (1)

After looking at the clips I'd increase the AE in the 80C range.

There are the three tables you can change. Try decreasing the TPS AE Filter a bit at 80. For additional AE can then increase the CTS Comp table at 80.

RBob.

liquidh8

That is what i did, I increased 80c in the CTS multiplier. It seems to be getting better now. I have been trying to check the 100KPA VE table from 1800 - 2000 rpm, inda hard to do. Seems that after the AE finishes, for a second or so in that rpm are at 100 KPA it goes to 15.9-16.x AFR, So I gave it a little more VE there too. I'll do some more testing over the weekend and keep er'body posted. All in all it is MUCH better then before I re-visted AE.

liquidh8

OK, I drove to work this morning, had a lean stubmle, not a pop, and looking at the log it was anywhere from 12.5 - 24 dTPS, but I alsoo had from 35 - 55 dMAP there too, so I am adding a little of both. This is the real pain for me, I can't get more than 30 dMAp ae without stomping the throttle. So I am unsure if I am adding AE in the right table.

On a sid note, is the anything saying I should have less in the multiplier tables and more in the dTPS and dMAP tables? I figued it doesn't matter since the math brings me to the same AE.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

For the dTPS & dTPS tables vs. the multipliers, they are adjusted for different reasons. The CTS multiplier being for temperature corrections. The RPM multipler being for RPM corrections.

This is such as: if the above lean stumble was at less then the thermostat operating temperature, then the CTS table should be adjusted.

Otherwise, if the engine was at operating temperature then the dMAP & dTPS tables can be adjusted.

If you note that at a different RPM and the same dMAP & dTPS, then adjust the RPM table.

Another item to watch for is the fuel level in the tank. If the baffling is inadequate and the level is less then 5/8's - 3/4's it is easy to pick up air.

RBob.

liquidh8

I think I have a handle on the above. I started with a "zero" point for my adjustments. When I am driving down the turnpike, (I'm in PA not far from you), the engine is between 2200 and 2600. I have it at operating temp, (85c for me) and based all my TPS and MAP AE tables from there. That is why my 2200 RMP multiplier is 0. The CTS multiplier I kinda adjusted from the EBL,bin. Good info there for others whom are tuning AE.

I just wanted to be sure having alot in the multipliers to get what I need is ok. I have a log from todays run home (from willow grove air base to yardley), I still have to look at it. seems better than yesterday.

As always your are a godsend RBob.

liquidh8

Well, went over my dumplog, looking good! I have to shorten the MAPfilter a bit it seems. I had to up the CTS @ 68c, and shorten the TPSfilter under 54c. I also had to add TPS AE from 12.5 to 28 TPS.

Lets see how I fair tomorrow.

liquidh8

Well, figured I'd post an update. I chased my tail for a bit. But it has come the closest it has ever been. I don't have the real lean spike when I stab the go pedal from a dead stop. It goes rich for a few tenths of a second, but I am working that. I also have a lean area at 78-89 KPA from 1800 to 2400, I was rasing the VE there, but I just today went and change the BPC vs VAC in those MAP's. We'l see how it goes.