92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

i just bought an 87 iroc, the previous owner had replaced the steering column when someone attempted to stel the car. the car cranks but dosnt turn over. the previous owner said it started before he swapped the steering column. what do i need to do to get it to turn over. is there a way i can hotwire the car? i just need to see how it runs so i can start working on it. any help would be really appreciated. thank you all.

MP81

So, the starter is working, right?

Then it's either got no fuel or no spark or both.

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

ok, so if it cranks then it has noting to do with the fact that he replaced the steering coloumn? because he said that was when he started to have the problem getting it started. itws got half a ank of gas, is there a way i could force fuel in? i havnt worked with TPI before.

MP81

It almost sounds like you have a dead fuel pump... but it could be spark related too.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Are both plugs connected to the ignition switch? If the one isn't connected it will crank but not fire. Does the fuel pump prime when you turn the key on, or the guages, radio, heater, etc?

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

ive never put in an ignition switch, so im not sure if both things are conected. however there are a few loose connections hanging down. i dunno what it sounds like when the fuel pump"primes" but the gauges work. where would i look for the ignition switch thing, is there a place where it mounts, im reallly not good with electrical, but i got this carfor a stealand would love to see it running in a day or two. i can check the fuel pump to see if it is good. should i dump out the gas that is in it, im sure its been sitting for probably 6 months or so.

MP81

You can usually hear the fuel pump priming.

Put your head down in front one of the rear tires, and have someone turn the key to the on position (don't crank). You'll hear the pump come on.

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

ok, i found what i think is the ignition switch. i looked for tis first because it made more sence to me with the steering coulumn replacement. i found a switch that has two plugs into it, and of course there is only one bundle of wires plugged in, the second plug has what looks like 3 wires, but nothing is plugged into the other end. im fairly sure that the fuel pump works, i heard a noise coming from the rear of the car when i was trying to start it earlier this afternoon. it was like a very low kinda whining noise, ut not like a high pitched whine or anything, like a low moan. it didnt sound like anything bad.

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

It sounds like the previous owner didn't know what he was doing.
He might have put a non-vats steering column into a vats-equipped car. Then you have a problem because the injectors won't fire.

You can easily check for fuel starvation - spray some carb cleaner or brake parts cleaner into the intake and try to start. If it starts and dies, you have spark but no fuel.

Then we can take it from there.

Lou

P.S.: You didn't mention your engine specs, I assume it's a 350 TPI model?

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

to be 100% honewst im not sure if its 350 or 305. vats, is vats where they key is black with a security thing in it? because the key in it now dosnt have the security thing. how owuld this present a problem, is there a wayaround it? the car is an automatic, it has 4 wheel disc brakes and 3.3 posi. it has the tpi intake but i dont know if its a 350 or 305. i worked a long day today and its dark now, so im not sure how much i can get done. i appreciate everyones help, if there is a way to get the car to fire without using the key, i could do that too.

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Again, as I said earlier, spray some carb cleaner into the intake and crank it over. If it fires and dies, you have spark but no fuel.
If the car used to have a key with the little resistor pellet and now it doesn't, that would make it not start, that's a given. There are ways to fix it or bypass it, do a search on VATS here and you'll find LOTS of info.

Hope this hleps.
Lou

P.S.: If you can find the original key with the resistor pellet, that would save you A LOT of trouble.

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

ok, im gunna go try the carb cleaner thing, will update when done. *update* ok, so i sprayed in some starter fluid, and the car started, so i have spark. so i decided to check the fuel pump, like yall have been urging me. so i turned the car into the on position and went to the rear tire. i didnt hear anything, so here is my next question, when the fuel pump primes is it a constant noise, or, do i have to like jump to the back of the car to hear it? the car wasnt making noise wen i went to the rear tire. i need a new fuel pump?

BG84FBIRD

there is another thing i can think of. have you checked the fuel filter, that was ther problem in my car. the other thing is if the car has been parked (as mine was) you might need a couple filters, if that is the problem

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

hmmm, fuel filters arnt expensive either i guess i will go pick one up tommorow after work, are they hard to change out? what other filters should i pick up?

BG84FBIRD

no their not pull off the air cleaner then you will need a 26mm open end wrench and another wrench i can't remember the size use both at the same time the big one to hold the filter housing in place then undo the line with the other.then undo the housing to remove the filter. now ofcorse this is instructions for a carb like mine

MP81

If he has TPI, his filter should be near the back, in front of the tank, a little more to the driver's side.

5/8" and 13/16" are what you'll need, and I recommend not stripping the nuts.

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Get ready for gas coming out of the fuel lines when you disconnect the filter. It's not gonna stop because of gravity. Have a catch pan ready and use some rubber gloves, you don't want all that gas on your hands. Of course, eye protection helps too.

When you turn on the key, the fuel pump "primes" for 2 seconds only. It's a semi-quiet whine from the rear axle. Normally, if you are in a quiet garage (or on a quiet street) without your stereo blasting, you can easily hear it.

Beware, the fuel pump primes only if the key has been off for 20 seconds or more. So turning key on-off-on-off rapidly doesn't do it more than once.

If you have a buddy to assist you, you can pop the hood, find the fuel pump relay on the firewall (in the corner by the brake booster) and when he turns the key on, the relay should click, the pump should whine for 2 seconds, then the relay should click again and pump won't whine anymore.

Stupid question, have you checked the INJ 1 and INJ 2 fuses under the dash? They power the two banks of injectors. It is unlikely that they both are blown but it's just a sanity check.

Please report back with your findings so that we know which test worked and which didn't

Hope this helps.
Lou

MP81

I believe you can use golf tees to plug the fuel lines temporarily, just don't forget to take them out! =P.

Now, when I replaced my fuel filter, the gas that came out was metallic colored - a sign the fuel pump was dying (which it was). If you see metallic fuel (from the feed line - before the filter), it might be a sign of a dead/dying fuel pump.

89RsPower!

You really need to find out if it was a VATS car..I'd have to agree with the other guys who said its a non vats column in a vats car.. changing the fuel filter won't fix that, though you probably could use a new filter anyway.. I'd investigate the vats issues...

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

ok, i went ang to a fuel filter, gunna go put it in right now. i will check the fuses, and have my brother help me check the pump. i will update as soon as im done wrenching on my iroc. prolly like an hour or so. thanks eveyone for the suggestions and help. ill be back soon.

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

ok, so i put the new fuel filter in. i have a few new questions. #1 when i went to put the fuel filter in, one side of it said out, i figured that meant that out was toward the motor, so i mounted it that way. when i took it out it was on the other way. so, flowing from the gas tank, out would be toward the motor, which is how mounted it. would having the filter mounted backwards affect te gas flow? i figure there is a reason there is an in side and an outside. ok, question number 2, would air in the lines affect starting? i dont think it ould because fuel is more dense than air which i would think means the fuel would push the air out, or out of the way and would combust with the fuel, right? ok question number three, i looked by the brake booster and everything looks right save on wire input. there is a square box, about 1 inch by 1 inch, maybe a bit biger that has 4 wires going into it, and what looks like a mount for the fender, would the mount act as a ground? what is te little box for? sorry for all the questions, but i promise, i will only ask once.

MP81

You put the filter on correct.

Did you make sure the o-rings were kept in place?
They have a knack for falling out of place.

Was the gas metallic color, and was the old filter blocked (try blowing through it)?

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

i didnt see any o rings. which is probbly a bad thing. the old filter was not blocked, because when i took the old fittings off, lol, fuel was shooting out both sides. there is no difference in the problem, the car is still cranking, but not starting. right now ive got the steering column loose and am trying to get to the ignition switch. ive got a replacement switch to put in. IF, IF IF IF IF IF the car was equiped with vats there is no way i can change it back or w/e, so i would need to know how to get around vats. which it looks like that is what it is coming down too, the fuel pump primes, the fuel filter is in right, i check the visible fuel lines and there are no kinks. is there a spot, close to the motor, that i can unhook the line and make sure the pump is pumping fuel all the way to the motor?

89RsPower!

painless wiring sells a vats bypass module or you can get a prom burnt without vats in it.. also there is a vats fuse, see if you have a spot labeled vats in your fuse box, not sure if thats what its labeled or located honestly though.. but there is a fuse for it..

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

IF your no-fuel condition is caused by VATS and if you can find the original key, you're saved, you can "fix" it pretty easily. If you don't have the key, it will be a little harder to find which key "number" you had but it's still "fixable".

So the main question is: can you find the original key?

Lou

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I think we need to see wome pics of this not connected wiring under the dash. VATS only has two wires, and they are (usually) both white (Substitute colours are purple/white and white black IIRC), these wires will be very small about 20 AWG and encased in an orange jacket.

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

ok, im having alot of trouble making head or tails of this wiring underneath the dash. so here is what i know, the fuel pump is good, fuel filter is good, and the car has spark. i managed to get the old steering column today, but the previous owner iluded me, his wife gave me the part. i dont not see the wires for the vats on that steering column, i also do not see the wires coming down from the steering coulmn on my car. i checked every fuse, and they are all good. i did however notice on the fuse block, there are two arrows labled IGN, which i assumed was ignition, but only one of the ports for the ign plugs are filled. these are wires having to do with the ignition? or are to wire things to the ignition? ive spent tha last 4 nights cramped in the underdash of this car lol, hopefully im getting close. but the wiring is a mess. any suggestions?

Also, my digital camera got stolen, so i cant take pics, unless i borrow my g/f's camera, and i wont see her till friday.

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Just to make sure that you have power to the injectors, open the hood and measure the voltage (with key on) on the pink wires on the injectors. No need to test them all, one injector per side is enough.

Lou

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

how do i test voltage

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Test light: clamp the wire on a good ground (bolt on the intake or valve covers etc) and pull one injector connector off. Stick the test light needle on the connector pin that has the pink wire on the outside. The light should light up.

DMM (Digital Multi-Meter - also incorrectly called DVOM): put the black probe on good ground (see above) and the red probe in the same connector as above. If the switch is set to DC Voltage (usually called DCV or V==) and around 20V, you should see 12V or more on the display.

Lou

P.S.: If you don't have either, I'd recommend buying at least a test light. They cost 99c - $5. Or a cheap DMM can be had for less than $5. I often see both on sale.

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

ok got a test light. gunna test it wen i get home from work tonight.

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

ok , so i decided to do some research on vats and found out that vats was introduced in 1988, dosnt that mean that my 1987 iroc wouldnt have vats? because gm hadnt put it in the cars yet? so, could the problem be that a vats column was put in a non vats car?

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Nope, it would work fine this way. But it wouldn't work the other way.

When you look at the old steering column, does it have an orange sleeve with two white wires in it, running down the column towards the ignition box? Those would be VATS wires.

Also, if you look under the dash at the fusebox, do you see a VATS fuse?

Lou

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

i only see one orange wire, i cut it and it didnt have anythng but copper iside lol, put the wire back together, and thats all there was t othat. the fuse box, well, all the letters and numbers on it are pretty much faded off, but i checked all the fuses and none are blown. i cant read there labels so i dont know if there is a a vats fuse.

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

ok so i decisded to check the fuel pressure regulator, cuz my friend craig told me too, its right next to t6he disty, the disty cap is really really loose. i tried to start it with starter rfluoid again and didnt get anythingt, im thinking maybe im not getting spark to all cylinders, i wish there was someone close to me, i think im gunna end up havinmg to take it to a shop.

MP81

Try pulling the spark plug wires and seeing if there's spark...

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

ok, so i unpluged two spark plug wires, not at the same time, one after another, and both wires did the same ting when the car was cranked.....nothing. is there supposed to be a noticale spark inside the wire?

MP81

Yes.

Check your distributor connections.

Know anyone with a distrubutor you can borrow?

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

i have another disty on my 92

MP81

Try swapping them.

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

is it a hard swap? i need to have the 92 for a daily driver

TIMMYS89GTA

iTrader: (28)

try changing the ign. module inside the dist. first.
an 87 does not have VATS so thats deffinately NOT your problem.

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

lol, i went to touch my disty, the cap wasnt even screwed down. lol, i screwed it down and forgot to look inside. it seems there is no spark, i unplugged three of the wires and checked to see if there was spark. my dad was working on it wen he said it started with starter fluid, im really starting to doubt that. so, my pla, is to pull out the distrubutor \ (probably tommorow), take the one out of my 92, switch em, and see if the one from my 92 works in the 87. if that works, then i buy a new distributor. or, just a new distributor cap. i feel like im getting closer and closer to havign this car started. i really appreciate all the help eeryone is giving me and cant wait until i have something to offer.

TIMMYS89GTA

iTrader: (28)

Well good luck with that.I really don't think the dist. itself is bad though.Try changing the module out first.You can interchange them.Alot less hassle than pulling the dist. on both cars to only find that one doesn't let the car start and one does.

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

ok check it out. i took off the disty cap, and there was no rotor inside of it. so, im gunna chnage the ign module, but first, what is that, and what does it look like?

MP81

The Ignition Module Looks Like This:


Or this:



Make sure you get the correct module (top is 7-pin, bottom is 4-pin).

Yeah, no rotor will generally cause a car not to start...

92WhiteZ28

iTrader: (1)

could u by chance get me an autozone part #? the on im finding dosnt look like that it looks like this

MP81

Here's the PN for the ACDelcos (Don't buy anything other than ACDelco for the Ignition Module)

D1961A (7 pin)

D1906 (4 pin)

TIMMYS89GTA

iTrader: (28)

hey 92whitez,the pic you have is the right ign. module (not the other one)
however if the rotor is missing,I would reccomend replacing that first.

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Stupid question but how did you get the car to fire up with the carb cleaner if it doesn't have a distributor? :hmm:

Lou