Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
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Lastly, while I was taking pics, took one of the battery re-location tray: This swap would not have been possible without the input from all you guys. I have a long way to go, but will keep on with TGO.
Boo.
Originally posted by Motor City Mike When I originally fit the engine in the chassis, I lowered and moved it back, which gained much needed space around the steering shaft for the header pipes coming out of the left cyl. head (they go underneath the shaft). Moving the engine down and rearward also gives a more favorable weight distribution (F to R) and gains much needed hood clearance.
I'm interested in doing exactly this and would like to know how you went about doing it
Is that an aluminum housing for the pinion bearing? I've heard that's a weak point of the 9".
Hey five7kid,
No, the guy that built the pumpkin paints all his pinion bearing housings with aluminum paint to make them look aluminum. I thought it looked pretty cool, so I left it that way.
As long as we are sharing solutions, I got frustrated with the options out there and finally contracted Lemons Headers to make me a set of medium length tri-Y headers that dump right next to the oil sump of my TH400 transmission. I'm certain that Lemons still has the jig used to create my headers and would gladly make them for anybody interested. The headers are a little spendy but fit better than any other header on the market. However, they will not fit with a lakewood bellhousing.
I've said it before Lemons Headers are top quality and worth every cent!!!!
Make sure you discuss the exact specs and what you expect from your headers with Dan Lemons. Its important to get what you pay for, and thats one of the reasons I will always support there headers!
Originally posted by Q I'm interested in doing exactly this and would like to know how you went about doing it
Basically it's just custom made motor motor mounts and stands (starting out as Moroso pieces), custom made trans crossmember, and some firewall "massaging" in the area behind the left cyl. head. Everything was mocked up using a bare block, heads, and a bare trans case. The motor mount stands were welded directly to the crossmember (approx. 2" rearward of original location) once everything was lined up where I wanted it. Keep in mind that custom fabbed headers will be a necessity when doing this. A tubular front crossmember will make things easier to do also, which will provide more oil pan and header clearance.
Hey this threads a couple year sold but since then has anyone tried any of the other Patriot headers for their big block swap. Besides the Patriot H8012s the original person used has anyone tried the H8013 which looks about the same w/ 1 7/8 primaries and a 3 1/2 in. collector. Also i saw true long tube headers by Patriot part # H8026 w/ 2 in primaries, and a 3 1/2 in. collector. How big of a problem would you think it would be to get the full long tube Patriot headers if i get a tubular k member.
Why would you want 1 7/8 primary tubes with a BBC, is a stocker?????
If you have juiced up the BBC dont waste your money on store bought headers!
Also I cant answer your question as I would never use Hooker or Patriot pre made headers for MY CARS ever again.
Don't mean to sound crabby, just have owned them all and you get what you pay for.
The one thing I can tell you if you use a tubular k-member with a rack&pinion you will most likely will have all the clearence you coud want!
Rotten
then get crazy and buy part # 1080569 http://www.theengineshop.com/pdfs/merlin.pdf
personally I think ID have sellected the ALL ALLUMINUM 572 that weights 471 lbs (less than a sbc)for $13,999 on the engine itself and buy a 871 supercgharger kit http://store.summitracing.com/default.as...p;x=30&y=10
WND-7186P $2,749
then stick it in a camaro or corvette for under $30,000 -$35,000 you could have something REALLY IMPRESSIVE, an all aluminum supercharged camaro or corvette engine that weighed less than the orriginal sbc )with well over 850hp
would it not be great to have that kind of cash to blow on a hobby???? but like most of us, Id come to my sences and put that cash on my morgage
Lemons 2.250.jpg
Shift _red
great choice for headers, just so happens that mine are ceramic coated "RED"
Let me know if you need help.....
Later
Rotten
Actullay i made up my mine on the lemon after reading your posts rotten.
Serching the topics on this forum for swap header came up with the:
Hooker
Partiot
ED Quay
Lemon
All of them had problems when installed except for the lemon.......and i cant afford to have one that doesnt fit because am not from the US.
I just contacted them and waiting for a replay, i hope that they have hood customer support.
They have great service!
Dan Lemons fixed me up when my four into one 4" collector needed two degrees of a bend in it. They cut it and tigged it exactly as a had made the diagram. shipped it back in a couple days NO CHARGE.
My setup required the change because of my frame setup, not because anything they did wrong on there part!!!
Need any help...
Later
RottenPicture_0024.jpg
That's going to cause problems no matter what you do. Tall deck blocks are a tight fit in a third gen no matter what you do. Add raised port heads on it and there's even more problems.
I hope it isn't a street car where you want a heater, wipers, power brakes etc.
__________________
87 IROC-Z
All engine, no power adders! Bests: 9.348@144.71
Have you ever used Victor Reinz (DANA) Head gaskets? I have one of the complete gasket kits and the head set is all silver (I3007) and look kinda flimsy.
My motor is a 11.5:1 396.
LOL that is why Dan didnt replay till now i did mention that it is a tall deck engine......i will wait and see
rotten i will contact you later sure i can use some help
So , has anyone used headers patriot part# H8013 , someone mentioned them as possibly a good option as the primaries were slightly bigger than #H8012's . I am possibly about a month away from getting my 496 up and running. I should have some pics of my short block up by Monday . I was going with some hooker headers but after reading of all the fitment problems I decided not to. The bad thing is if I go with this headers I will be sacrificing some power.
Last edited by Big454blockchevy; 05-21-2006 at 09:07 AM.
exactly how much did you have to "modify" (ie: beat in with a hammer, in inches) the passenger floorboard to fit those H8012s in? I will be using slip on collectors so it shouldnt be as much as you did booboosean, hopefully not anyways.
I had to beat it pretty good as you can tell from the pics. The floor is really thin and easy to dent, the frame rail is another story. It is harder to dent. I went with a slip-on collector too just to gain extra clearance. The reason I went with the 8012's was because I thought it would be easier than the Hookers. If I had it to do again, I might re-think it......but it's done now. The good thing about the 8012's is they exit inside the frame rails and offer a few more options on an exhaust system. Also, the primary tubes are 1 3/4"........that is not a concern for me because my engine only displaces 402 cubic inches. Someone with a 454 or larger would probably want something with 1 7/8' primaries.
hey thanks for the reply man, it helped a lot, i thought this thread was super dead or something so i wasnt expecting info. arent the hookers like freakin $400 uncoated? thaks robbery man, headers arent supposed to cost that much. so i guess its really noticable from sitting in the car on the pass side?
it looked pretty serious, so im not sure, but it looks like i dont have many options for headers anyways, arent the hookers engine swap headers? hmm, will i have to buy a tranny to fit my motor, cause i've heard the ones in them wont bolt up, something about my motor having a bigger flywheel or something. hmm, something to ponder, well thanks for the info man, keep it coming cause not many people around here know much about this swap. i'll save my other questions for another reply, dont wanna bog ya down or anything, haha, i owe you one!
No problem with the reply. I read a lot on the forum, but I've about quit participating because there's always someone who wants to contradict everything you post. Oh well, enough semantics, a BB Chevy will bolt in where a first gen small block once was. The trans bellhousing patterns are the same and the motor mount locations are in the same location. There are two sizes of flywheels, a 168 tooth and 153 tooth.....both can be had with external balancing for a 454 or a SB 400 (the 454 and 400 counterweights are different by the way) or a neutral balance. Either size flywheel will fit inside a "chevy" bellhousing pattern. So, theoretically, a BB will bolt to your stock tranny....how long it lasts is up to your right foot and how well the tranny's built.
About the floor board, it's so far under the dash that you can't see it. The frame had to be beat in about 1/4-1/2 inch. It's hard to swing the hammer between the frame rails so you don't get a heavy blow. I heard the Hookers take a lot of hammering too; however, it's in different places. I refused to "make" a $400 set of headers fit. I wish I could get Patriot to listen to me when I say if they'd make a header for the passenger side that was a mirror of the driver's side, it would drop right in and be an easy swap header for the BB third gen swap.
Another important point, there's so little clearance in my situation that if I were to want to run a tall deck block or a set of heads with raised exhaust ports, I would have to try something else as far as headers. Another option is a set of cast iron manifolds.....I've heard of a few instances where people have used them with success....I know, I know.....that's low performance, but a BB with cast iron manifolds would still put out twice the HP of any STOCK small block offered in our cars (I'm sure I'll get dogged about that comment!!).
Anyway, good luck, and if you have any more questions, search all of onefast85's posts, also there are several others on this forum that run BBCs that are very knowledgeable....or post here if you want to read my rambling.
yeah i've noticed how some people just post to humiliate other peole or try to sound smart. So i wouldnt even have to unbolt the chassis side of the small block mounts? the reason i'm asking is because i know you can move some mounts forward to different holes. well its good to hear that the floorboard dent isnt visible at least, i just know when i saw your picture it looked like a huge freakin 8" crater so that worried me a bit. I could probably heat the frame where i wanted it dented before i pound on it, that might help. I tired sending you a message asking you a bunch of little questions like if the tall valve covers would interfere with the brake booster. i already know the wiper motor will have to be removed, which kinda sucks. any other fitment problems? are you running a th400? what kind of options do i have for a manual trans? i plan on using an aluminum radiator with dual 13" electric fans and just trash the motor fan since it wouldnt fit with my long water pump anyways. I'll probably buy a scoop to try and keep this beast cool, but if it turns out to now be much of a problem just a cowl. i thought about an oil cooler but i dont know how much it would help. i know i'll have to buy a smaller oli pan (i have a 9qt on it now), will just a stock 5qt pan fit or will i have to buy a 4qt or a chevelle pan? i already figured out which front springs to buy so thats out of the way. well thats all i can think of for now, so thanks again and sorry if i get annoying!
oh and i forgot, how big of a chunk will i have to take out of the firewall/cowl for my stock HEI distributor? and what did you end up doing with your pipes? it looks like it might be a little tricky, i'd like to run 3" or 3.5", what size did you use?
sam,
I am running chrome Moroso tall valve covers and there is plenty of clearance between the valve cover and the booster. There was about 1/4 inch between the valve cover and the wiper motor (It was tricky removing the valve cover, but I didn't see why it would be too close)....I removed my wiper moter to lose a little weight (I never drive the car in the rain....rain-x just in case I get caught in the rain).
I am using an HEI.....once it's in there's plenty of room. The trick is getting it in. You have to remove the cap and rotor for it to clear the top lip on the cowl. I've heard some guys say they had to bend or cut that lip, but in my case, I didn't. I did notice one thing, when I changed the motor mounts to polyeurethane, it raised the motor about 1/2 inch.....they don't compress like rubber mounts (the directions say to check hood clearance after installation and I see why).
I am using a TH400 with a Spohn crossmember. The crossmember is huge and heavy; however, it hangs down so far that you won't mind running a 3 inch exhaust pipe by it. The pipe won't be any lower than the crossmsmber. As far as a manual trans, I don't know. If I were to go manual, I personally would start with a manual trans car that already had the clutch set-up in it from the factory.
You're right, the stock fan will not work with a long waterpump setup. The waterpump pulley is about 2-3 inches from the radiator. I used a brass 3 row with a 14 inch fan in front pushing. 396 castings are very thick and cool easily, but I don't know if the system I'm using will cool a stout 454. I've seen quite a few guys struggle with the cooling system since these cars are bottom breathers.
The oil pan I have on my motor is a 5qt Milodon (I think that's the way you spell it). I can dig up the part number if you want. It allowed for plenty of clearance between it and the crossmember.
After the last few replies I've made, I thinking I should've done an 80's Monte Carlo or something like that. Oh well, it's done now.....I will not do another one though. I've gained a lot of welding and fabrication experience which has been fun.
man, all that info sure gave me some relief, i was worried about the clearances since this car will be driven on the street pretty often. I should have a few more hairs to work with since i will be using the rubber mounts, which might even help that header clear on the passenger side a little since the motor will sit a little lower, in conjunction with the slip-on reducers anyways. so is there any room for a puller fan or will i need a pusher in front of the radiator? If so, how much room do i have to work with? I guess you dont have to answer dumb questions like that one, i'm going shopping for a car tomorrow and will have a look, i wasnt quite sure where that aftermarket radiator was gonna sit though. So how long will the factory rear end last? I'm guessing not long, so whats a good swap? I wasnt sure which axles would be the correct width so i figured youd know. youd still have your header problems with your monte carlo i think, and cooling would still kinda be an issue sinve these cars are closely related but it probably wouldnt have been quite as tricky. that was actually my first plan, but after thinking about it, i guess i just wanted a camaro for some reason, were there much difference in the weight of an SS and an IROC? I'm sure the camaro handles better and all, but that was just something i was wondering. well, thats enough for tonight, i need some rest to get all this off my mind, but im looking forward to the trip to the j-yard tomorrow!
man, all that info sure gave me some relief, i was worried about the clearances since this car will be driven on the street pretty often. I should have a few more hairs to work with since i will be using the rubber mounts, which might even help that header clear on the passenger side a little since the motor will sit a little lower, in conjunction with the slip-on reducers anyways. so is there any room for a puller fan or will i need a pusher in front of the radiator? If so, how much room do i have to work with? I guess you dont have to answer dumb questions like that one, i'm going shopping for a car tomorrow and will have a look, i wasnt quite sure where that aftermarket radiator was gonna sit though. So how long will the factory rear end last? I'm guessing not long, so whats a good swap? I wasnt sure which axles would be the correct width so i figured youd know. youd still have your header problems with your monte carlo i think, and cooling would still kinda be an issue sinve these cars are closely related but it probably wouldnt have been quite as tricky. that was actually my first plan, but after thinking about it, i guess i just wanted a camaro for some reason, were there much difference in the weight of an SS and an IROC? I'm sure the camaro handles better and all, but that was just something i was wondering. well, thats enough for tonight, i need some rest to get all this off my mind, but im looking forward to the trip to the j-yard tomorrow!
I have the LWP on my 454 and I use a Griffin 31X19" rad. I lowered the bottom rad tray about 2 inches so the rad would stand up straighter. Now I have room to use the slim Flexalite 220 puller fans. Low Profile Electric Fans at Flex-a-lite Consolidated
I have the LWP on my 454 and I use a Griffin 31X19" rad. I lowered the bottom rad tray about 2 inches so the rad would stand up straighter. Now I have room to use the slim Flexalite 220 puller fans. Low Profile Electric Fans at Flex-a-lite Consolidated
Could i use Derale's dual 13" electric pullers or would i not have enough room? They are a little over 1/2" thicker, but i dont know how much clearance i will have to work with. the radiator im buying is a summit direct fit #SUM-380455 Summit Direct Fit Aluminum Radiators: SUM-380455 - summitracing.com and the fans are # DER-16928 Derale Rad Dual Electric Fans: DER-16928 - summitracing.com
the rad dimensions are 30.625Wx18.500Hx2.250T and the fan dimensions are 13.820Hx28.5Wx3.190T. The Derale's are like $40 cheaper and move more air, the blades dont have to turn as much, but the 50amps they pull is confusing me, the themrostat and controls are another $25-$40 so it about breaks even then, it all depends if i can fit the derale's in there. let me know how much room you have and any info if there are any good, i may end up having to use those low-profile fans if i cant fit the others. so how tough is it to move the radiator mounts cause your rad is bigger than the one i plan on using and is apout the same price. your rad is a bit thicker than the one i had in mind so it would probably cool better too, thanks for the recommendations!
It isn't hard to drop the lower rad tray down. Just cut it off at both side and add the material you need to lower it the distance you want. Then weld it back in place.
I will measure the room from the front of the waterpump to my rad tomorrow and post the distance.
If doing it again I think I would have gone with the short water pump and then had much more room.
Blackroc86, That was a good idea on the radiator support. Kinda wish I'd thought of that.
Sam, I hope you're taking good notes...this swap is not for the faint of heart. It is a good learning experience though. If you're as stubborn as I am, you'll be able to pull it off lol. There is a ton of good info on this forum. Lowering the rad support was a new one on me (I learn something new everyday).
yeah, belive me, im taking GOOD notes so i have everything planned out before i start, hopefully that cuts down on the surprises some. I've already found what headers, hood, radiator, and cooling fans i plan on using, and i'm still deciding on which auto trans i should use.
Hi guys , i was looking for this thread for quite a while coulden't remember which site it was on.. I just got a Pro Street T/A from a friend and am transfering a BBC into it (it allready had a blown 502) TH-400 in it so All I have to do is drop mine in ... The problem I had was ground clearence (it has the Hooker Super Comps and 3" pipes back to flowmaster 40 series and dumps near the rear wheels ... all under the floors and rockers I was going to use the Hedders That came with it but would like to get the car lower to the ground and I believe the ones you used would work so I could run the pipes down the tunnel ... my question would be do you have to dent the frame rail itself or just the floor pan ? I can cut the pan and section in a piece for a cleaner look but would rather not cut or dent the frame section if possible ..and what size pipes did you use for the down pipes I have 2 1/2" in mind for more clearence The car is backhalved and has ladder bar suspension so I will have to figure that out but I think I can pick up a couple of inches of ground clearence with the patriot hedders ... any other issues come up after the install ? Thanks BBCAM.
__________________ 88 T/A Pro Street 408 BBC, TH-400, 9" 3.50 gear Caged,Shaved, & tubbed with wheelie bars and a chute.. sounds impressive anyway!
BBCAM,
To keep from denting the frame too much, I went ahead and cut the collector off and re-welded it to angle slightly inward. The Patriots do bring the exhaust within the frame rails. I couldn't figure a way to run the pipes down the tunnel so I ended up routing them down the rocker panels. I built a 3-inch dia system that gives about 3.5-4 inches of ground clearance. My SSM crossmember only has 4 inches so they are about the same. After all this fab-work, I do not recommend using the Patriots unless you are a patient fabricator. The Hookers at least put the outlets where they need to be. My SPOHN trans crossmsmber and driveshaft loop pretty much kept me from running pipes down the tunnel.
Thanks for the reply Boo, I have plenty of fab experiance so I dont think I'll have too bad of a time, I just dont like the hookers I have now, the exhaust is the lowest point on the car and I coulden't get the suspension down where I want it.. the only thing in my trans tunnel is the driveshaft so I should have plenty of room to put the pipes along side of it, do you have any pics of the mod you made to the collector flange ? thanks again BBCAM.
__________________ 88 T/A Pro Street 408 BBC, TH-400, 9" 3.50 gear Caged,Shaved, & tubbed with wheelie bars and a chute.. sounds impressive anyway!
I have a trans cooler line leak and have to get under the car to fix this weekend. I will take a few pics while I'm under there. I noticed you're running a th350....they are a little smaller than the th400...that should give a little more room for pipes too....that's good.
booboosean can we get some info. of where you bought your headers & part#. I was going to go with the super comp long tubes by hooker, but read an article and the guy had a lot of clearance issues.
The Brand is Patriot and the PN is H8012. I bought them from Summit. Check out the rest of this thread and you'll see that I ran into some fitment issues too. I don't see how the Hookers can be any worse.....the patriots just offered an alternative at about 1/3 the price. I ended up running 3 inch tubes inside the rocke panel kinda like the Hookers would exit. As I've said before, I would try something else before I used these headers again........there's gotta be something better than these or the Hookers. On the up side, the shorties do leave some options of where you run your pipes.
Ok, I'm convinced. My son and I were going to swap the v-6 in our RS to a SBC, but the BBC's at the U-Pull-It are plentyful and cheap. I am a decent fabricator, and there is SO much info on this post, I am confident we can pull it off. I would love to keep the stick in it to see how long it lasts. We will probably end up with a 700r4, and the 7 5/8 probably won't last long either. Thanks guys for ALL of the good info. I printed most of this post for reference. Don't let the "your car's wrong and mine is right" guys discourage, this post is helping alot of us......
I saw that someone had trimmed the factory frame rails just forward of the trans x-member. Did that help with collector/exhaust pipe clearance? I think I could fab that up, and will probably have to to get rid of the rust after the new floor pans are in. I didn't know these cars rusted so bad.....
The crossmember on mine is on fabbed frame rails we cut the originals off where they start to go straight back eliminating the turned in parts , so basicly its framed from the firewall back but fabricated frame connectors could be used the same way as long as they were welded in , it does make it easier to run stuff down the tunnel ...
__________________ 88 T/A Pro Street 408 BBC, TH-400, 9" 3.50 gear Caged,Shaved, & tubbed with wheelie bars and a chute.. sounds impressive anyway!
. I was going with some hooker headers but after reading of all the fitment problems I decided not to. The bad thing is if I go with this headers I will be sacrificing some power. 
88 T/A Pro Street 408 BBC, TH-400, 9" 3.50 gear Caged,Shaved, & tubbed with wheelie bars and a chute.. sounds impressive anyway! 
