kboehringer

Davecs1,

It does look extremely sharp. I don't think anything would have looked better in our engine compartment, other than a gold to match the car. If we went that route we'd need a high heat version of the color and that would probably get very expensive.

We're going to remove the casting imperfections and ridges from the casting forms from the heads and block. We'll also sand down all the areas to be painted (a little) to get a smoother finish. That should help keep the thing cleaner and make the paint look better (similar to yours but probably not that good).

We're going the Black & Chrome route as that's a bit cheaper than Aluminum and will still give a nice "Bling" effect. The Chrome Oil Pan just arrived a day or two ago.

Thanks again,

Kurt & Derek

__________________
Kurt & Derek Boehringer

1982 Chevrolet Camaro Z-28
------------------------------------
1979 Pontiac TransAm '78 Clone - 455 MONSTER!

DAVECS1

Well let me know if you guys need any odds or ends. I have small stuff laying around that did not make the final cut if you know what I mean. If you do not know what i mean you will! I have some bolts brackets and fittings, air filtration stuff, etc. I would be happy to donate to the cause, but you may have to kick in shipping.

five7kid

Be careful with those chrome pans. I have a buddy who needed to lift the engine off the mounts, put a board under the pan and jacked it up like we all do, and it's leaked ever since. Apparently they aren't as thick as factory pans.

On the dampers, the keyway lines up with the #1 crank throw. You can see the lower one in the picture has the timing mark well away from the keyway. The other one, which can't be seen well in the pic, has the timing mark closer to the keyway but not quite aligned with it. You should be able to use the 305 damper and front cover, as long as the cover mates properly to the pan.

As for my project, I haven't spent any time in the garage since the family's been gone except to change the oil filter on the daughter's car, and wax the Camaro. Too busy just doing the things of life (new "healthy" diet, which I've had to shop and cook for myself, isn't helping any...).

flyitlikustolit

(off topic) I'm with you on the diet thing. I dropped 14 pounds in two weeks... eating rabbit food so i can join the army.

kboehringer

Five7Kid,

I made a better picture in the event anyone was interested in the the diferences you mentioned.

We plan on using the 305 parts since the damper appears to be in better shape, and I/we think it will be much easier to set the timing. With the A/C and Power Steering mounted in the PROPER locations.... the 350 setup would be extremely difficult to view maybe even impossible.

Sincerely
Kurt & Derek

Attached Images

z28_timing305_350small.jpg (68.3 KB, 978 views)

__________________
Kurt & Derek Boehringer

1982 Chevrolet Camaro Z-28
------------------------------------
1979 Pontiac TransAm '78 Clone - 455 MONSTER!

kboehringer

DaveCS1,

RE: If you do not know what i mean you will!

I had no idea how much STUFF (the kind word) we have laying around. For starters (which we have 2...LOL), there were only two complete engines here at the start, now it seems like three or four. I don't like to keep trash but I also have a hard time tossing stuff. In addition, we (probably more "I") absolutely love the J.Yard. Derek doesn't have enough experience to understand what a delight it is to get a bargain on that ".......maybe we can use this piece" . I can find two or three pieces we need on EVERYnearly completely picked over piece of crap in any J.Yard!

CASE IN POINT (see photo).....
I took a vacation day yesterday to stop by the machine shop and goof off a little. Afterwards. I went to the J.Yard for a little "RELAXATION" ..... without Derek I can ENJOY every greasy minute and really pick some cars over. I found an aluminum GM intake on a '85 Z-28. I start thinkin..... how much HP is a Edel"BROKE" really gonna give us? if we use this we can have an extra couple bucks for paint etc.

I better grab this intake!!.... WOW the proper throttle cable gotta get that.... Berlinetta with all the proper A/C & steering brackets (regular belting) better grab this too........... 2 hours and $60 later the Accord's trunk is full of parts again

I gotta get rid of some of this extra stuff!

After a lot of bead blasting the THIRD intake from the '85 Z-28 looks like the winning candidate for our CC Carb 350 engine project (finally decided). We can upgrade the intake later if we choose but we'll stuff all our extra money into the long-block and paint.

If anyone has any thoughts or reservationsabout the intake we're planning to use (photo aluminum) please reply (before I toss the other two).

FYI...tidbit.... Cast Iron Boat Anchor Intake(s) 42lb. each.... Aluminum Only 16-3/4 lb. What a difference!!!

Respectfully,
Kurt & Derek


P.S.
If anyone can think of anything from the 305 they want (rods, crank, whatever is left) I will also extend the offer to send it wherever for shipping$ only. Also, if anyone needs that little something they cannot find in their local J.Yard PM me and I'll keep an eye open for one and help ya'll get it. I keep pretty good notes about every car and J.Yard in my PDA.

Attached Images

z28_intake3small.jpg (77.5 KB, 969 views)

__________________
Kurt & Derek Boehringer

1982 Chevrolet Camaro Z-28
------------------------------------
1979 Pontiac TransAm '78 Clone - 455 MONSTER!

DAVECS1

That aluminum piece is a find! I know of a couple guys that would pay good money for that. There are certain SCCA classes that require stock engine and intake. You can get some good flow by port matching and smoothing the inside dividers. If you can find a good quadra jet, there are a couple of articles on how to make it flow 750 cfm. I still think the cam I listed in the combo in my previous post will work pretty well. I would be carefull buying a used quardajet, they will be next to impossible to tune if it is leaking around the assembly screws in the bottom. Problem is you cannot see the leak and it is hard to diagnose. The Jet offering is a very slick piece and easy to tune, but I think the the price is a little steep, but definetly worth the money.

Did you ever figure out anything on those heads? I think l98 heads would really make that combo!

kdrolt

I just stumbled across this thread -- it's great!

My $0.02, FWIW:

1. Don't use the 305 torsional damper on a 350, and likewise don't use a 350 damper on a 305. Use the proper damper for the engine you choose. Look at the difference, in the pix, of the thickness of the outer ring on each damper. The rotary mass is different on each because each is tuned to a different torsion frequency because the engines are different. You have shocks to absorb vibrations in the car that could, eventually, shake the hell out of it and form cracks in the frame. The engine also has a shock absorber only it's connected to the front of the crank and it's called a torsional damper (it's also errantly called a harmonic balancer). Using the wrong damper, or no damper, eventually can lead to torsional failure (a shearing failure) of the crankshaft. The torsional damper is designed to work properly with the engine it was intended for.

2. FIND someone near you who has skills in reworking GM factory electrical connectors. You can rebuild an entire engine harness back to factory spec with the old connectors (from similar vintage GM cars) and new wire and new connector pins (available from NAPA). But it helps ALOT to have someone show you how the connectors come apart and go back together. Making the car look factory-spec will be very worthwhile in addition to avoiding later electrical problems from poor wiring/soldering practice. A 3rdgen owner would be the best help, so you have a car to compare to.

3. Go to Helm's online store. See if you can buy the FSM (factory service manual) for the car. Worth every penny, and a great learning tool for your son. The other service manuals pale in comparison to the factory version. You can also look for one on eBay.

4. This is your son's first foray into this field, then I suggest you keep the induction simple and cheap. Either go with a carb, or go with a 2-bore TBI from a GM truck or car, and get the entire engine wiring harness + computer. TAKE pictures before you remove it. BTW the original Crossfire *is* a TBI system; the only difference is that it uses two laterally separated single-bore throttle bodies each having a single fuel injector. The truck/car TBI units on later GM vehicles is a single assembly having two bores and two injectors. Both can be made to run well and make decent power (as many people have done here and on the Crossfire vault website). So choose based on cost/availablity. And yes, the TBI systems should get better mpgs and emissions than the carb and better overall driveability than a carb UNLESS you have outstanding carb tuning skills.

5. The 993 heads are open chamber -- they will flow well after porting but they won't make as much power as the 416 heads. Do at least the minimum of DIY porting to the 416 heads, and keep the stock sized valves -- bigger valves will be shrouded in the small chamber of the head unless you have the head cut (deshrouded)... and all of that is extra money you don't need to spend.

I admire what you are doing and thanks for growing the thread.

LT1guy

If you need any reasonably priced performance items, or chrome dressup stuff, or any of the miscellaneous little things that come up when putting a car back together, check out Barnett Performance. They're near downtown Atlanta on Memorial Drive; just take I75N to I20E, get off at the Boulevard exit, and take a left. Go down the hill to the stoplight (Memorial) and make a left; they're at the top of the hill on the left, in a white building with multicolor stripes around it. It doesn't look like much, but they have near everything you might want (including the right timing cover), and they price match to Summit and Jegs (if not cheaper already). The guys there are really helpful esp Chris and Keith at the counter, and they have a very good stock.
800-533-1320

__________________
Altered State Customs
1987 Trans Am w/455 (in progress)
1985 Trans Am (getting 500ci Caddy)
1997 Camaro SS #359 383 LT1
Co-Builder of RAIF (As seen on TLC's RIDES!)

flyitlikustolit

yessir. bought lots o stuff from kieth and them at Barnett. also, I'm curious. why keep the compute just for the timing... why not just remove the check engine bulb and stick on an old-school HEI?

five7kid

The dampers aren't "tuned" to a 305 vs. 350. If they were, Fluidampr and ATI would have been breaking people's cranks or causing all sorts of vibration problems for selling the same damper for 262-350 V8s, and 4.3L 90 degree V6's.

The factory used different diameters, thicknesses, and weights of dampers for different reasons.

kdrolt

I know about the reasons --- I learned about them in college.

The damping mechanism of the two designs (masses damped by a trapped fluid, vs a metal ring supported by a shear layer of vulcanized rubber) are completely different. The factory item is tuned to have a severely damped torsional resonance so that it optimally damps torsional vibration at one frequency (in this case, whichs maps to one specific rpm of the engine). You usually design it to damp the torsional mode that's most likely to (eventually) crack the crankshaft. It's very good for that but not so good at higher rpms (where more torsional modes occur).

The fluid damper designs are non-resonant but have more damping over a wider range of torsional frequencies and therefore engine rpms. So they don't work great at the lowest torsional mode speeds of the crank but they do work better over a very wide range of engine speeds while the tuned-mass torsional damper (an OEM unit) do not. That's the difference. The OEM units are cheap to make and are good for what's intended of them, the fluids units work better over a wider range of speeds but are not cheap to make so they cost more.

So when you say that the (factory) dampers aren't tuned to different (rotating mass) engines like 305s and 350s, and then use fluid-entrained dampers as an example, you are comparing apples to oranges and you haven't proven your case. The dampers ARE tuned to different torsional frequencies, because the masses on the two outer rings (shown in this thread) are different and because the shear rubber thickness also looks different. The math to support this (which I know, but won't post) will be in a mech engr book, and it's probably in one of many books on automotive engr.

I did a brief search to find a frequency response plot (or a plot of damper response vs rpm) to show this; I think the fluid damper people have those type of comparisons on their web sites but in the short time I searched I came up empty. (EDIT: there are plots in the GMPP engine book.)

Instead, here's a few links that discuss torsonal dampers:

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/4402/

http://www.enginehistory.org/
http://www.enginehistory.org/NoShortDays/TV.pdf

http://www.grapeaperacing.com/GrapeA...gs/dampers.pdf

HTH.

EDIT: ATI has some useful info on their web page:

http://www.atiperformanceproducts.co.../101/index.htm
especially the tech articles at the bottom of the page.

This one is probably the best one I found:
http://www.vibratechtvd.com/the_facts.htm

kboehringer

Kdrolt,

Thanks for spending the time to provide such a detailed explanation. I checked out the web references you provided and they were chock-full of data about the different dampeners.

Based on the data, a truely high performance engine would sustain catastrophic damage from an improper or damaged damper. For many of our engines I assume we've all probably been getting lucky with one off of another engine. I know the one from my '78 T/A had the living daylights beat out of it. I know this because I was too stupid (at that time) to use a proper puller on it, or intall it with the proper tool. Fortunately, it never eat itself.

We really took a look over both of my dampers and found they were both actually in poor conditon. We also found that the 350's dampener weighed 11# and the 305's weighed in at 9#.

We will make sure to install a good one (J.Yard or New Fluid Type) that is truly in good condition and either from a 350 or rated for one. We're not generally too lucky and my crankshaft would probably end up cracking.

Thanks again for spending the time to explain the differences. Derek and I both took the time to examine the dampers and learned something.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

__________________
Kurt & Derek Boehringer

1982 Chevrolet Camaro Z-28
------------------------------------
1979 Pontiac TransAm '78 Clone - 455 MONSTER!

DAVECS1

I have found the Pioneer units to be pretty reliable up to 6500 rpm repeately. I built a motor for a dirt track modified using this damper on a two piece rear main 383. I think I purchased it at Advanced Auto, but I have seen it many places, for around 60 dollars

flyitlikustolit

talking about the nice 1-piece balancers? they come with a lot of external balance 383 kits on ebay. I'm getting one with my it in a few weeks.

kboehringer

flyitlikustolit,

We believe (although hopefully someone will correct us if we're wrong) that the computer is doing a good bit more than "Check Engine Bulb".

The computer.......
1.) If we "ditch it" we get a truly "Antique" engine. Probably not a great thing.
2.) We THINK there are advantages to having the computer control the carb. I'm a fair carb tuner but not much better than fair. The computers ability to adjust fuel flow, idle speed, and choke for a cold engine is definately preferred.
3.) We THINK there are advantages to having the computer control the ignition system/timing advance curve.
4.) The T700 needs the computer to "lock-up". Yes, there is a work around, but what mechanic (other than those on this site) will actually know how to repair or trouble shoot it?
5.) We THINK the temp guage, oil pressure and other indicatiors might just need the computer otherwise I THINK we may have to replace or wire them differently.
6.) We're lucky to be beyond inspection requirements in Georgia in one year but who knows where Derek will go to college and what requirements there will be in that location. If we keep the Cat for noise and environmental reasons, why not keep the EGR, O2 Sensor and CC Carb. Maybe it could actually pass an inspection?
7.) We've found a few CC Carbed 5.7's we just need to find one that is not tanked and we can rewire our Z-28 with the 5.7 carb harness in a couple hours. Everything should work with hopefully very little tinkering.
8.) MIGHT be a tidbit better on fuel. MIGHT be!


Here is the Final PLAN........
WE WILL DO NO MORE FLIP FLOPPING!

a.) Basically New/Fresh 350 4-bolt short block.
b.) 416 Heads (some mods as suggested by Five7Kid, SellmanB, Kdrolt, & Others)
c.) Computer (LG4 - as suggested by sellmanB, DENN-SHAH pointed out the T700 issue)
d.) Mild Cam (Comp Cams PN 12-236-3 as suggested by DaveCS1) ,
e.) New lifters, push rods, high-volume oil pump (Common sense?)
f.) Rockers (1.6 as suggested by DaveCS1)
g.) CC Carb (as suggested by SellmanB and others)
h.) Headers (purchased some {but not one of the better rated on the exhaust board} - suggested by Five7Kid and SellmanB)
i.) Cat-Back 3" (suggested by several)
j.) Decent Tranny (T700) (came with the car apparently pretty good choice, to be diagnosed and tuned-up by a local tranny shop.)

This car should be a heck of a lot of fun to drive and not too powerful. Although, we think it just might be a heck of a lot more reliable and powerful than the 180hp 305 cross-fire.

Anybody got a guess-timate of HP for the above described engine? We'd love to get any idea. Come on.... just give us a guess!! We're dying to get an idea!!!

Various parts are showing up on the door step almost daily and the machine shop will have the proposed build sheet ready tomorrow morning. The block was getting dipped today and tomorrow they will let us know what they recommend. In a couple weeks we should be posting photos of Derek installing the crank, pistons, etc. into the short block.

We gotta go find some stuff to throw away.... Gotta make room for the engine stand!

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

__________________
Kurt & Derek Boehringer

1982 Chevrolet Camaro Z-28
------------------------------------
1979 Pontiac TransAm '78 Clone - 455 MONSTER!

kboehringer

DaveCS1,

For $60 lousy bucks (or thereabouts) I'm not taking any chances, we have too much time and money invested in this project.... I'll be at Advance Auto or AutoZone Tomorrow!

P.S. I hope Derek doesn't spend ANY time at 6500 RPM

Thanks for the info!
Kurt

__________________
Kurt & Derek Boehringer

1982 Chevrolet Camaro Z-28
------------------------------------
1979 Pontiac TransAm '78 Clone - 455 MONSTER!

flyitlikustolit

my motor found it's way to the machine shop today. really friendly, really close, really experienced. all good qualities. he asked me if i was in a hurry, cuz he's goin on vacation for a week tomorrow, i told him nope. I just want it done right, whatever that costs. the cylinders were in great shape, so we're going to clean it, hone it, fresh freeze plugs and oil gallery plugs, clearance it for a stroker crank if need be, and then I'm gonna put it together. I'm figuring a month. good luck with your motor, guys. I decided on an HEI/carb for simplicity's sake, but i totally know what you mean about the emissions deal, and other stuff. I was more concerned with reliable power, and driving the hell out of it, buti have a parts chaser, so if the car breaks it's ok. for you guys, i think it might be worth while to KISS. good luck.

DAVECS1

Well it looks like you guys have settled on a good combo, but I have one concern and maybe others can confirm this concern or tell me I am full of it, hopefully for you guys the later.

The concern I have with the CC setup is your ability to manipulate the timing curve on your engine. Given,, the timing curve should not be too radical in your application, I still think there is a good chance you could miss out on some horse power, efficeincy and mileage. I am thinking that, the curve that is programmed into the CC setup will be for a car that pretty much came at the tail end of the smog era, the time of nuetered V8's. As such I am willing to bet that the timing curve is really tame. I have a collegue I work with who has a Monty SS. I tried to modify the code for his CC, but quite frankly we couldn't find the old eproms used in the ECM or any of the tools or equipment to work on them, much less come up with a clear definition of the programming after I tried to dissassemble the code. Most after market chips at best are a shot in the dark.

So all that being said I would carefully consider regular carb or an EFI alternative, but that is my two cents.

DAVECS1

Hey I found that Harminic Balancer, here is the link. It was used on an old chevy truck 87 with a 350

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...e=1269&ptset=A

five7kid

Is that damper, DA3502, an 8", 12 o'clock? If so, you might have to find another front cover, because you don't have a cover for that type. FWIW, the Pioneer damper that came up for 1986 & '87 Camaro LG4 was DA3051, and for 1987 Camaro L98 was DA3071. My current stock 1986 LG4 damper is 8", 12 o'clock, but the crank is also one-piece rear main seal. Somehow or another you're going to have to figure out how to get all this matched up. (I still think we're splitting hairs about the dampers, at least for a 5500 RPM max engine.)

As far as chip tuning goes, the HO 350 Camaro Conversion Kit PROM was 24502457 for '82-'84 LG4, and 24502456 for all others - $66.63 from gmpartsdirect.com. That was with a 1228079 ECM, which is not available (on that site, at least). I believe the PROM will work with stock ECMs, although I'm not completely certain about that. The spark curve was so aggressive that the conversion kit also had a dash decal included that said "Premium Fuel Only". I'm currently running a chip I got from JC Whitney back in 1999 (no longer available, apparently, all they have now is stuff for sport compacts), I never have done back-to-back comparisons with the stock chip. I just know I run regular 85 octane with the base timing set at 8 degrees, it runs fine and doesn't have pinging problems.

Oh, don't forget knock sensor & module if you go with CC q-jet. You'll need 350 pieces, which again from the HO 350 kit and gmpartsdirect.com are 10456288, $27.80, and 16128261, $48.39.

five7kid

Oh, you might want to check into getting a Pioneer damper from Summit instead. They list them for about $15-$20 less than partsamerica.com.

DAVECS1

Thats a good find on those dampers Five7kid. I think the one listed for the truck lines up with his engine combo well. Being as it is a two piece rear main 350. i would go to the J. yard and find a cover, blast it paint it black. Better yet, knock the pointers off the ones he has and buy an aftermarket pointer and line it up when you assemble the engine. Then you will know it is dead nut* on and there is nothing to worry about. In fact I think I have a summit piece laying around I could send that way.

I have dyno tested a stock 305 CC Monty with the regular chip, and the HO offering. It gained approximately 5 HP peak at the rear wheels and the curve was much flater through the range. i will see if I can dig those graphs up. So I agree the HO stuff is not bad, but the chip was designed to be used with the HO cam that came in the HO package. I am not sure how it will react to the comp cams offering. I think it may be a roll of the dice, as to whether the results are good or not so good.

I agree about splitting hairs on the dampers, Harmonic Balancers, what ever you want to call em. I won't flaunt my background, but lets just say I have the liberty to sit in my office and respond to these posts all day.

The fact of the matter is, a 305 and 350 have the same firing order, at least if you are using the chevy offering from the early 80s that came in light duty trucks and cars. As such the firing of each cylinder impacts the crank in a similar pattern when compared between the two engines. The part you will get into trouble with will be the difference in mass. As that mass increases speed, roughly put the amount of impact force will change with respect to time.

So what it boild down to is evrybody is somewhat right. Yes you can probably interchange the damper and be fine as long as the following conditions are met.

1. no extended time over 6000
2. using a cast crank or something less than forged (impact propagation is less)
3. It is balanced to suit the rest of your rotating assembly.