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Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled

Engine Swap Everything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.

Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled

Old 05-17-2005, 12:44 AM
  #151  
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Originally posted by DAVECS1
........I think it looks sharp and it is realitively inexpensive. Anything aluminum you can just grab and take a buffing wheel to it and it fits the scheme. My favorite part is any scratches or new parts can can be blasted with easy to match paint.
Davecs1,

It does look extremely sharp. I don't think anything would have looked better in our engine compartment, other than a gold to match the car. If we went that route we'd need a high heat version of the color and that would probably get very expensive.

We're going to remove the casting imperfections and ridges from the casting forms from the heads and block. We'll also sand down all the areas to be painted (a little) to get a smoother finish. That should help keep the thing cleaner and make the paint look better (similar to yours but probably not that good).

We're going the Black & Chrome route as that's a bit cheaper than Aluminum and will still give a nice "Bling" effect. The Chrome Oil Pan just arrived a day or two ago.

Thanks again,

Kurt & Derek
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Old 05-17-2005, 10:43 AM
  #152  
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Well let me know if you guys need any odds or ends. I have small stuff laying around that did not make the final cut if you know what I mean. If you do not know what i mean you will! I have some bolts brackets and fittings, air filtration stuff, etc. I would be happy to donate to the cause, but you may have to kick in shipping.
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Old 05-17-2005, 11:46 AM
  #153  
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Be careful with those chrome pans. I have a buddy who needed to lift the engine off the mounts, put a board under the pan and jacked it up like we all do, and it's leaked ever since. Apparently they aren't as thick as factory pans.

On the dampers, the keyway lines up with the #1 crank throw. You can see the lower one in the picture has the timing mark well away from the keyway. The other one, which can't be seen well in the pic, has the timing mark closer to the keyway but not quite aligned with it. You should be able to use the 305 damper and front cover, as long as the cover mates properly to the pan.

As for my project, I haven't spent any time in the garage since the family's been gone except to change the oil filter on the daughter's car, and wax the Camaro. Too busy just doing the things of life (new "healthy" diet, which I've had to shop and cook for myself, isn't helping any...).
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Old 05-17-2005, 08:03 PM
  #154  
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(off topic) I'm with you on the diet thing. I dropped 14 pounds in two weeks... eating rabbit food so i can join the army.
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Old 05-17-2005, 11:07 PM
  #155  
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Originally posted by five7kid
On the dampers, the keyway lines up with the #1 crank throw. You can see the lower one in the picture has the timing mark well away from the keyway. The other one, which can't be seen well in the pic, has the timing mark closer to the keyway but not quite aligned with it. You should be able to use the 305 damper and front cover, as long as the cover mates properly to the pan......
Five7Kid,

I made a better picture in the event anyone was interested in the the diferences you mentioned.

We plan on using the 305 parts since the damper appears to be in better shape, and I/we think it will be much easier to set the timing. With the A/C and Power Steering mounted in the PROPER locations.... the 350 setup would be extremely difficult to view maybe even impossible.

Sincerely
Kurt & Derek
Attached Thumbnails Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled-z28_timing305_350small.jpg  
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Old 05-17-2005, 11:55 PM
  #156  
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Originally posted by DAVECS1
............ I have small stuff laying around that did not make the final cut if you know what I mean. If you do not know what i mean you will! I have some bolts brackets and fittings, air filtration stuff.......
DaveCS1,

RE: If you do not know what i mean you will!

I had no idea how much STUFF (the kind word) we have laying around. For starters (which we have 2...LOL), there were only two complete engines here at the start, now it seems like three or four. I don't like to keep trash but I also have a hard time tossing stuff. In addition, we (probably more "I") absolutely love the J.Yard. Derek doesn't have enough experience to understand what a delight it is to get a bargain on that ".......maybe we can use this piece" . I can find two or three pieces we need on EVERYnearly completely picked over piece of crap in any J.Yard!

CASE IN POINT (see photo).....
I took a vacation day yesterday to stop by the machine shop and goof off a little. Afterwards. I went to the J.Yard for a little "RELAXATION" ..... without Derek I can ENJOY every greasy minute and really pick some cars over. I found an aluminum GM intake on a '85 Z-28. I start thinkin..... how much HP is a Edel"BROKE" really gonna give us? if we use this we can have an extra couple bucks for paint etc.

I better grab this intake!!.... WOW the proper throttle cable gotta get that.... Berlinetta with all the proper A/C & steering brackets (regular belting) better grab this too........... 2 hours and $60 later the Accord's trunk is full of parts again

I gotta get rid of some of this extra stuff!

After a lot of bead blasting the THIRD intake from the '85 Z-28 looks like the winning candidate for our CC Carb 350 engine project (finally decided). We can upgrade the intake later if we choose but we'll stuff all our extra money into the long-block and paint.

If anyone has any thoughts or reservationsabout the intake we're planning to use (photo aluminum) please reply (before I toss the other two).

FYI...tidbit.... Cast Iron Boat Anchor Intake(s) 42lb. each.... Aluminum Only 16-3/4 lb. What a difference!!!

Respectfully,
Kurt & Derek


P.S.
If anyone can think of anything from the 305 they want (rods, crank, whatever is left) I will also extend the offer to send it wherever for shipping$ only. Also, if anyone needs that little something they cannot find in their local J.Yard PM me and I'll keep an eye open for one and help ya'll get it. I keep pretty good notes about every car and J.Yard in my PDA.
Attached Thumbnails Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled-z28_intake3small.jpg  
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Old 05-18-2005, 09:48 AM
  #157  
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That aluminum piece is a find! I know of a couple guys that would pay good money for that. There are certain SCCA classes that require stock engine and intake. You can get some good flow by port matching and smoothing the inside dividers. If you can find a good quadra jet, there are a couple of articles on how to make it flow 750 cfm. I still think the cam I listed in the combo in my previous post will work pretty well. I would be carefull buying a used quardajet, they will be next to impossible to tune if it is leaking around the assembly screws in the bottom. Problem is you cannot see the leak and it is hard to diagnose. The Jet offering is a very slick piece and easy to tune, but I think the the price is a little steep, but definetly worth the money.

Did you ever figure out anything on those heads? I think l98 heads would really make that combo!
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Old 05-18-2005, 12:00 PM
  #158  
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I just stumbled across this thread -- it's great!

My $0.02, FWIW:

1. Don't use the 305 torsional damper on a 350, and likewise don't use a 350 damper on a 305. Use the proper damper for the engine you choose. Look at the difference, in the pix, of the thickness of the outer ring on each damper. The rotary mass is different on each because each is tuned to a different torsion frequency because the engines are different. You have shocks to absorb vibrations in the car that could, eventually, shake the hell out of it and form cracks in the frame. The engine also has a shock absorber only it's connected to the front of the crank and it's called a torsional damper (it's also errantly called a harmonic balancer). Using the wrong damper, or no damper, eventually can lead to torsional failure (a shearing failure) of the crankshaft. The torsional damper is designed to work properly with the engine it was intended for.

2. FIND someone near you who has skills in reworking GM factory electrical connectors. You can rebuild an entire engine harness back to factory spec with the old connectors (from similar vintage GM cars) and new wire and new connector pins (available from NAPA). But it helps ALOT to have someone show you how the connectors come apart and go back together. Making the car look factory-spec will be very worthwhile in addition to avoiding later electrical problems from poor wiring/soldering practice. A 3rdgen owner would be the best help, so you have a car to compare to.

3. Go to Helm's online store. See if you can buy the FSM (factory service manual) for the car. Worth every penny, and a great learning tool for your son. The other service manuals pale in comparison to the factory version. You can also look for one on eBay.

4. This is your son's first foray into this field, then I suggest you keep the induction simple and cheap. Either go with a carb, or go with a 2-bore TBI from a GM truck or car, and get the entire engine wiring harness + computer. TAKE pictures before you remove it. BTW the original Crossfire *is* a TBI system; the only difference is that it uses two laterally separated single-bore throttle bodies each having a single fuel injector. The truck/car TBI units on later GM vehicles is a single assembly having two bores and two injectors. Both can be made to run well and make decent power (as many people have done here and on the Crossfire vault website). So choose based on cost/availablity. And yes, the TBI systems should get better mpgs and emissions than the carb and better overall driveability than a carb UNLESS you have outstanding carb tuning skills.

5. The 993 heads are open chamber -- they will flow well after porting but they won't make as much power as the 416 heads. Do at least the minimum of DIY porting to the 416 heads, and keep the stock sized valves -- bigger valves will be shrouded in the small chamber of the head unless you have the head cut (deshrouded)... and all of that is extra money you don't need to spend.

I admire what you are doing and thanks for growing the thread.
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Old 05-18-2005, 12:31 PM
  #159  
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If you need any reasonably priced performance items, or chrome dressup stuff, or any of the miscellaneous little things that come up when putting a car back together, check out Barnett Performance. They're near downtown Atlanta on Memorial Drive; just take I75N to I20E, get off at the Boulevard exit, and take a left. Go down the hill to the stoplight (Memorial) and make a left; they're at the top of the hill on the left, in a white building with multicolor stripes around it. It doesn't look like much, but they have near everything you might want (including the right timing cover), and they price match to Summit and Jegs (if not cheaper already). The guys there are really helpful esp Chris and Keith at the counter, and they have a very good stock.
800-533-1320
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Old 05-18-2005, 03:07 PM
  #160  
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yessir. bought lots o stuff from kieth and them at Barnett. also, I'm curious. why keep the compute just for the timing... why not just remove the check engine bulb and stick on an old-school HEI?
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Old 05-18-2005, 03:37 PM
  #161  
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Originally posted by kdrolt
1. Don't use the 305 torsional damper on a 350, and likewise don't use a 350 damper on a 305. Use the proper damper for the engine you choose. Look at the difference, in the pix, of the thickness of the outer ring on each damper. The rotary mass is different on each because each is tuned to a different torsion frequency because the engines are different. You have shocks to absorb vibrations in the car that could, eventually, shake the hell out of it and form cracks in the frame. The engine also has a shock absorber only it's connected to the front of the crank and it's called a torsional damper (it's also errantly called a harmonic balancer). Using the wrong damper, or no damper, eventually can lead to torsional failure (a shearing failure) of the crankshaft. The torsional damper is designed to work properly with the engine it was intended for.
The dampers aren't "tuned" to a 305 vs. 350. If they were, Fluidampr and ATI would have been breaking people's cranks or causing all sorts of vibration problems for selling the same damper for 262-350 V8s, and 4.3L 90 degree V6's.

The factory used different diameters, thicknesses, and weights of dampers for different reasons.
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Old 05-18-2005, 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by five7kid
The dampers aren't "tuned" to a 305 vs. 350. If they were, Fluidampr and ATI would have been breaking people's cranks or causing all sorts of vibration problems for selling the same damper for 262-350 V8s, and 4.3L 90 degree V6's.

The factory used different diameters, thicknesses, and weights of dampers for different reasons.
I know about the reasons --- I learned about them in college.

The damping mechanism of the two designs (masses damped by a trapped fluid, vs a metal ring supported by a shear layer of vulcanized rubber) are completely different. The factory item is tuned to have a severely damped torsional resonance so that it optimally damps torsional vibration at one frequency (in this case, whichs maps to one specific rpm of the engine). You usually design it to damp the torsional mode that's most likely to (eventually) crack the crankshaft. It's very good for that but not so good at higher rpms (where more torsional modes occur).

The fluid damper designs are non-resonant but have more damping over a wider range of torsional frequencies and therefore engine rpms. So they don't work great at the lowest torsional mode speeds of the crank but they do work better over a very wide range of engine speeds while the tuned-mass torsional damper (an OEM unit) do not. That's the difference. The OEM units are cheap to make and are good for what's intended of them, the fluids units work better over a wider range of speeds but are not cheap to make so they cost more.

So when you say that the (factory) dampers aren't tuned to different (rotating mass) engines like 305s and 350s, and then use fluid-entrained dampers as an example, you are comparing apples to oranges and you haven't proven your case. The dampers ARE tuned to different torsional frequencies, because the masses on the two outer rings (shown in this thread) are different and because the shear rubber thickness also looks different. The math to support this (which I know, but won't post) will be in a mech engr book, and it's probably in one of many books on automotive engr.

I did a brief search to find a frequency response plot (or a plot of damper response vs rpm) to show this; I think the fluid damper people have those type of comparisons on their web sites but in the short time I searched I came up empty. (EDIT: there are plots in the GMPP engine book.)

Instead, here's a few links that discuss torsonal dampers:

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/4402/

http://www.enginehistory.org/
http://www.enginehistory.org/NoShortDays/TV.pdf

http://www.grapeaperacing.com/GrapeA...gs/dampers.pdf

HTH.

EDIT: ATI has some useful info on their web page:

http://www.atiperformanceproducts.co.../101/index.htm
especially the tech articles at the bottom of the page.

This one is probably the best one I found:
http://www.vibratechtvd.com/the_facts.htm

Last edited by kdrolt; 05-22-2005 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 05-18-2005, 11:13 PM
  #163  
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Originally posted by kdrolt
...........The factory item is tuned to have a severely damped torsional resonance so that it optimally damps torsional vibration at one frequency ..................that's most likely to (eventually) crack the crankshaft.
Kdrolt,

Thanks for spending the time to provide such a detailed explanation. I checked out the web references you provided and they were chock-full of data about the different dampeners.

Based on the data, a truely high performance engine would sustain catastrophic damage from an improper or damaged damper. For many of our engines I assume we've all probably been getting lucky with one off of another engine. I know the one from my '78 T/A had the living daylights beat out of it. I know this because I was too stupid (at that time) to use a proper puller on it, or intall it with the proper tool. Fortunately, it never eat itself.

We really took a look over both of my dampers and found they were both actually in poor conditon. We also found that the 350's dampener weighed 11# and the 305's weighed in at 9#.

We will make sure to install a good one (J.Yard or New Fluid Type) that is truly in good condition and either from a 350 or rated for one. We're not generally too lucky and my crankshaft would probably end up cracking.

Thanks again for spending the time to explain the differences. Derek and I both took the time to examine the dampers and learned something.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
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Old 05-18-2005, 11:56 PM
  #164  
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I have found the Pioneer units to be pretty reliable up to 6500 rpm repeately. I built a motor for a dirt track modified using this damper on a two piece rear main 383. I think I purchased it at Advanced Auto, but I have seen it many places, for around 60 dollars
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Old 05-19-2005, 12:13 AM
  #165  
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talking about the nice 1-piece balancers? they come with a lot of external balance 383 kits on ebay. I'm getting one with my it in a few weeks.
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Old 05-19-2005, 12:23 AM
  #166  
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We promise!! NO more flip flopping on the intake...

Originally posted by flyitlikustolit
I'm curious. why keep the compute just for the timing... why not just remove the check engine bulb and stick on an old-school HEI?
flyitlikustolit,

We believe (although hopefully someone will correct us if we're wrong) that the computer is doing a good bit more than "Check Engine Bulb".

The computer.......
1.) If we "ditch it" we get a truly "Antique" engine. Probably not a great thing.
2.) We THINK there are advantages to having the computer control the carb. I'm a fair carb tuner but not much better than fair. The computers ability to adjust fuel flow, idle speed, and choke for a cold engine is definately preferred.
3.) We THINK there are advantages to having the computer control the ignition system/timing advance curve.
4.) The T700 needs the computer to "lock-up". Yes, there is a work around, but what mechanic (other than those on this site) will actually know how to repair or trouble shoot it?
5.) We THINK the temp guage, oil pressure and other indicatiors might just need the computer otherwise I THINK we may have to replace or wire them differently.
6.) We're lucky to be beyond inspection requirements in Georgia in one year but who knows where Derek will go to college and what requirements there will be in that location. If we keep the Cat for noise and environmental reasons, why not keep the EGR, O2 Sensor and CC Carb. Maybe it could actually pass an inspection?
7.) We've found a few CC Carbed 5.7's we just need to find one that is not tanked and we can rewire our Z-28 with the 5.7 carb harness in a couple hours. Everything should work with hopefully very little tinkering.
8.) MIGHT be a tidbit better on fuel. MIGHT be!


Here is the Final PLAN........
WE WILL DO NO MORE FLIP FLOPPING!


a.) Basically New/Fresh 350 4-bolt short block.
b.) 416 Heads (some mods as suggested by Five7Kid, SellmanB, Kdrolt, & Others)
c.) Computer (LG4 - as suggested by sellmanB, DENN-SHAH pointed out the T700 issue)
d.) Mild Cam (Comp Cams PN 12-236-3 as suggested by DaveCS1) ,
e.) New lifters, push rods, high-volume oil pump (Common sense?)
f.) Rockers (1.6 as suggested by DaveCS1)
g.) CC Carb (as suggested by SellmanB and others)
h.) Headers (purchased some {but not one of the better rated on the exhaust board} - suggested by Five7Kid and SellmanB)
i.) Cat-Back 3" (suggested by several)
j.) Decent Tranny (T700) (came with the car apparently pretty good choice, to be diagnosed and tuned-up by a local tranny shop.)

This car should be a heck of a lot of fun to drive and not too powerful. Although, we think it just might be a heck of a lot more reliable and powerful than the 180hp 305 cross-fire.

Anybody got a guess-timate of HP for the above described engine? We'd love to get any idea. Come on.... just give us a guess!! We're dying to get an idea!!!

Various parts are showing up on the door step almost daily and the machine shop will have the proposed build sheet ready tomorrow morning. The block was getting dipped today and tomorrow they will let us know what they recommend. In a couple weeks we should be posting photos of Derek installing the crank, pistons, etc. into the short block.

We gotta go find some stuff to throw away.... Gotta make room for the engine stand!

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

Last edited by kboehringer; 05-19-2005 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 05-19-2005, 12:30 AM
  #167  
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Originally posted by DAVECS1
I have found the Pioneer units to be pretty reliable up to 6500 rpm repeately. ..........I have seen it many places, for around 60 dollars
DaveCS1,

For $60 lousy bucks (or thereabouts) I'm not taking any chances, we have too much time and money invested in this project.... I'll be at Advance Auto or AutoZone Tomorrow!

P.S. I hope Derek doesn't spend ANY time at 6500 RPM

Thanks for the info!
Kurt

Last edited by kboehringer; 05-19-2005 at 12:32 AM.
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Old 05-19-2005, 12:31 AM
  #168  
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my motor found it's way to the machine shop today. really friendly, really close, really experienced. all good qualities. he asked me if i was in a hurry, cuz he's goin on vacation for a week tomorrow, i told him nope. I just want it done right, whatever that costs. the cylinders were in great shape, so we're going to clean it, hone it, fresh freeze plugs and oil gallery plugs, clearance it for a stroker crank if need be, and then I'm gonna put it together. I'm figuring a month. good luck with your motor, guys. I decided on an HEI/carb for simplicity's sake, but i totally know what you mean about the emissions deal, and other stuff. I was more concerned with reliable power, and driving the hell out of it, buti have a parts chaser, so if the car breaks it's ok. for you guys, i think it might be worth while to KISS. good luck.
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Old 05-19-2005, 09:59 AM
  #169  
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Well it looks like you guys have settled on a good combo, but I have one concern and maybe others can confirm this concern or tell me I am full of it, hopefully for you guys the later.

The concern I have with the CC setup is your ability to manipulate the timing curve on your engine. Given,, the timing curve should not be too radical in your application, I still think there is a good chance you could miss out on some horse power, efficeincy and mileage. I am thinking that, the curve that is programmed into the CC setup will be for a car that pretty much came at the tail end of the smog era, the time of nuetered V8's. As such I am willing to bet that the timing curve is really tame. I have a collegue I work with who has a Monty SS. I tried to modify the code for his CC, but quite frankly we couldn't find the old eproms used in the ECM or any of the tools or equipment to work on them, much less come up with a clear definition of the programming after I tried to dissassemble the code. Most after market chips at best are a shot in the dark.

So all that being said I would carefully consider regular carb or an EFI alternative, but that is my two cents.

Last edited by DAVECS1; 05-19-2005 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 05-19-2005, 10:13 AM
  #170  
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Hey I found that Harminic Balancer, here is the link. It was used on an old chevy truck 87 with a 350

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...e=1269&ptset=A
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Old 05-19-2005, 01:13 PM
  #171  
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Is that damper, DA3502, an 8", 12 o'clock? If so, you might have to find another front cover, because you don't have a cover for that type. FWIW, the Pioneer damper that came up for 1986 & '87 Camaro LG4 was DA3051, and for 1987 Camaro L98 was DA3071. My current stock 1986 LG4 damper is 8", 12 o'clock, but the crank is also one-piece rear main seal. Somehow or another you're going to have to figure out how to get all this matched up. (I still think we're splitting hairs about the dampers, at least for a 5500 RPM max engine.)

As far as chip tuning goes, the HO 350 Camaro Conversion Kit PROM was 24502457 for '82-'84 LG4, and 24502456 for all others - $66.63 from gmpartsdirect.com. That was with a 1228079 ECM, which is not available (on that site, at least). I believe the PROM will work with stock ECMs, although I'm not completely certain about that. The spark curve was so aggressive that the conversion kit also had a dash decal included that said "Premium Fuel Only". I'm currently running a chip I got from JC Whitney back in 1999 (no longer available, apparently, all they have now is stuff for sport compacts), I never have done back-to-back comparisons with the stock chip. I just know I run regular 85 octane with the base timing set at 8 degrees, it runs fine and doesn't have pinging problems.

Oh, don't forget knock sensor & module if you go with CC q-jet. You'll need 350 pieces, which again from the HO 350 kit and gmpartsdirect.com are 10456288, $27.80, and 16128261, $48.39.
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Old 05-19-2005, 01:16 PM
  #172  
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Oh, you might want to check into getting a Pioneer damper from Summit instead. They list them for about $15-$20 less than partsamerica.com.
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Old 05-19-2005, 01:42 PM
  #173  
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Thats a good find on those dampers Five7kid. I think the one listed for the truck lines up with his engine combo well. Being as it is a two piece rear main 350. i would go to the J. yard and find a cover, blast it paint it black. Better yet, knock the pointers off the ones he has and buy an aftermarket pointer and line it up when you assemble the engine. Then you will know it is dead nut* on and there is nothing to worry about. In fact I think I have a summit piece laying around I could send that way.

I have dyno tested a stock 305 CC Monty with the regular chip, and the HO offering. It gained approximately 5 HP peak at the rear wheels and the curve was much flater through the range. i will see if I can dig those graphs up. So I agree the HO stuff is not bad, but the chip was designed to be used with the HO cam that came in the HO package. I am not sure how it will react to the comp cams offering. I think it may be a roll of the dice, as to whether the results are good or not so good.

I agree about splitting hairs on the dampers, Harmonic Balancers, what ever you want to call em. I won't flaunt my background, but lets just say I have the liberty to sit in my office and respond to these posts all day.

The fact of the matter is, a 305 and 350 have the same firing order, at least if you are using the chevy offering from the early 80s that came in light duty trucks and cars. As such the firing of each cylinder impacts the crank in a similar pattern when compared between the two engines. The part you will get into trouble with will be the difference in mass. As that mass increases speed, roughly put the amount of impact force will change with respect to time.

So what it boild down to is evrybody is somewhat right. Yes you can probably interchange the damper and be fine as long as the following conditions are met.

1. no extended time over 6000
2. using a cast crank or something less than forged (impact propagation is less)
3. It is balanced to suit the rest of your rotating assembly.
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Old 05-19-2005, 01:59 PM
  #174  
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An '87 truck should be one-piece rear main seal. I don't know how much difference that makes, whether they changed the damper when going to one-piece rear main seal, but it definately changes the oil pan. I haven't tried to follow all the changes they've made to the pan/cover interface, but I do know a ZZ3 take-off pan fit my '86 305 block and cover.

I did some checking into dampers a couple of months ago because of the 350 shortblock I've got in the works. I didn't recall seeing any difference between same year/model 305 & 350 dampers at that time, now the Pioneer #'s come up different on partsamerica. So, I may have to rethink my plan to reuse my LG4 damper, in which case I'll probably have to go through the timing mark/timing tab alignment tab thing myself, most likely. However, somewhere in the recesses of my mind I think I recall hearing that the '87 L98 used the same accessory belt arrangement as the '87 LB9, and I know the '87 LB9 arrangement is the same as my '86 LG4 because I have one of those engines. On the other hand, my crank is steel and the rotating assembly has been balanced.

As always, ol' Beelzebub is in the details...
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Old 05-19-2005, 03:56 PM
  #175  
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Re: We promise!! NO more flip flopping on the intake...

Originally posted by kboehringer
Here is the Final PLAN........
WE WILL DO NO MORE FLIP FLOPPING!


a.) Basically New/Fresh 350 4-bolt short block.
b.) 416 Heads (some mods as suggested by Five7Kid, SellmanB, Kdrolt, & Others)
c.) Computer (LG4 - as suggested by sellmanB, DENN-SHAH pointed out the T700 issue)
d.) Mild Cam (Comp Cams PN 12-236-3 as suggested by DaveCS1) ,
e.) New lifters, push rods, high-volume oil pump (Common sense?)
f.) Rockers (1.6 as suggested by DaveCS1)
g.) CC Carb (as suggested by SellmanB and others)
h.) Headers (purchased some {but not one of the better rated on the exhaust board} - suggested by Five7Kid and SellmanB)
i.) Cat-Back 3" (suggested by several)
j.) Decent Tranny (T700) (came with the car apparently pretty good choice, to be diagnosed and tuned-up by a local tranny shop.)

This car should be a heck of a lot of fun to drive and not too powerful. Although, we think it just might be a heck of a lot more reliable and powerful than the 180hp 305 cross-fire.

Anybody got a guess-timate of HP for the above described engine? We'd love to get any idea. Come on.... just give us a guess!! We're dying to get an idea!!!

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
Sounds like a nice setup. That cam is pretty mild

That sounds like a good setup that's just a cam-swap away from making some formidable ponies.

One thing I might want to add, is that the high volume oil pump is a no-go unless you want to supercharge or turbo charge the car, which I dont think you do?

Anyways, the high volume oil pump will suck the oil pan dry if you keep at some moderately high RPMs for an extended period of time... and well... let's just say "kids will be kids"

A better setup is a "frankenpump" lol. You take the Melling M55 oil pump, the M55-A Oil Pump Pickup, a Mr. Gasket #26 spring, and a 55-SA Oil Pump Driveshaft.

This will keep the oil pressure pegged most the time, at keep it at like 45 or so PSI at idle.

The M55 oil pump is the regular oil pump
The M55-A Oil Pump Pickup is the high volume oil pump's pickup
The Mr. Gasket #26 spring is a pressure spring for the oil pump that lets the pressure release at a higher pressure compared to stock.
The 55-SA oil pump driveshaft is a lightweight one with steel collars, as opposed to the plastic ones that came from the factory.

That setup should help the motor stay alive for a much longer time


Have you decided on an intake to use yet w/ the CC Carb setup? If not you may want to look at the ZZ4 intake. It has all the emissions provisions, the late model accessory provisions (so you can mount your alternator lol), it's aluminum and great for pretty much all RPMs. It's what is used on the ZZ4 crate motor. I plan to use this intake w/ my CC-Carb soon enough, as it has been suggested to me by many many... many people lol.

BTW, I havent forgotten about getting those pictures of my LG4'd 350 to yah, I just broke the USB port on my computer so I have to find another computer to upload them to and send them to you from lol.


If I had to guess at what horsepower you'd be making with the above setup, I'd have to take a guess that it would be probably around 300hp at the flexplate. Which should be more than enough at the wheels to keep Derek happy, but not kill himself while dinking around lol.
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Old 05-19-2005, 05:47 PM
  #176  
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Sellmanb: I would check the lift numbers on the cam with 1.6 roller rockers. That is a moderate amount of lift. From my experience it lets a good amount of air in without the difficulties of excessive overlap. This should make the motor easy to tune and still very powerful. Also it needs to be taken into account that the heads will be the limiting flow factor not the cam. I am by no means an expert that is just my two cents.
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Old 05-19-2005, 07:04 PM
  #177  
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I agree that it's not a BAD cam, not at all. But he is looking for a very mild cam for Derek it seems, something that will still let him toot his horn, but not harm himself or others. Granted that's mostly up to Derek's decision making abilities, but well, let's just say... parents who give their kids a ferrari when they turn 16 is only because they have a good life insurance policy on them.
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Old 05-20-2005, 02:47 AM
  #178  
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Re: Re: We promise!! NO more flip flopping on the intake...

Originally posted by sellmanb
........One thing I might want to add, is that the high volume oil pump is a no-go ......The high volume oil pump will suck the oil pan dry ........... A better setup is a "frankenpump" ............. should help the motor stay alive for a much longer time
SellmanB & DaveCS21,

Thanks for the input. Fortunately, the oil pump is one of the few items we have not actually ordered/purchased yet. It was my intention to purchase it from Powerhouse in SoCal. We thought that there might be some other items we would want from them.

It hadn't occured to "me" that we could be purchasing TOO much pump. Guess bigger isn't always better. We'll use the set-up you just suggested.

Originally posted by sellmanb
Have you decided on an intake to use yet w/ the CC Carb setup?
For the short-term...... We'll be using the GM aluminum manifold (previous post) to save a few bucks. In the future, we can make an easy upgrade. We really need to start thinking about (and saving money for) paint and new seals all around.

This evening we started porting and polishing the 416 heads. One of my mechanics gave me a "Norton Basic Porting Kit - Part No. 636425-03412". It came with some very good instructions and Derek and I read them at least 3 times before we started. The instructions recommend taking out a significant amount of material.... A little scary!!! I don't know if we're going to "push the limits" on the porting job but there is a significant amount of junk in those ports that we are going to get smoothed out.

We followed the instructions and used the 350's orignial heads for practice. We didn't make any mistakes so they can still be used with more polishing and porting if necessary. It was a good idea to get a feel for the tools. We noticed a big difference in the amount of crap in the different heads.... The 305's (416) we're cleaner to start with in all areas. That is not a "physically" clean comparison but rather from the casting's "leftover's".

We looked over the aluminum intake and determined that there wasn't much there to be removed. A stock steel intake however could use a great deal of porting polishing if we were to used it (not a chance- LOL). We're going to leave the majority of the intake alone and just do the "Port-Matching" procedure to make sure the ports on the head and intake align properly and smoothly.

Once complete we'll post a couple photos.

Originally posted by sellmanb
If I had to guess at what horsepower you'd be making with the above setup, I'd have to take a guess that it would be probably around 300hp at the flexplate. Which should be more than enough at the wheels to keep Derek happy..............
Thanks for the HP guess....... "I" have no idea where the modifications would put us. We were hoping that we were going to end up a little bit above 250. That seems like a pretty reasonable amount of power for MOM and I to eat up a "little" highway on the way to Panama City......

I also remember meeting a few of these "New" Z-28's at street lights in Va. Beach/Norfolk when they first came out. I guarantee you my '78 T/A's tail lights is all any of them ever saw. They (or their drivers) were slugs! I'm looking forward to Derek letting me drive this thing! Fortunatley for him, his grades are very good and he is making good progress on Eagle Scout. Therfore, there isn't much chance of him losing ownership of this vehicle.

NO fooling, NO empty threats........
Bad Grades (below B) = DAD GETS 100% OWNERSHIP OF Z-28
Bad Grades (below B) = Derek on bicycle!

Sincerely,
Kurt
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Old 05-20-2005, 10:11 AM
  #179  
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no kidding. my parents did it to me, and it worked. i just wish i had a Z...... not a honda in high school.

eagle scout? good luck. it's a hard road, but it opens lots o' doors. I got eagle my sophomore year of high school, and was glad i did because school was getting more and more busy.... it's amazing how much your social lif changes when you get a car.
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Old 05-21-2005, 07:38 AM
  #180  
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Machine Shop Evaluation of 350

TGO Guys,

We got the word from the machine shop on the 350. There gonna need to do the following;

New pistons - Stock pistons are .009 outside of tollerance.
Bore Block - To match Pistons
Turn Crank - Rod Journals outside Tollerance.
Line Bore the Block -

Should have it back in only a few days (maybe a week)
Total cost with all new bearings,pistons, rings, etc. about $700.

We were hoping for a little less machine work.

But....Let's build it right the first time!

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
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Old 05-21-2005, 10:55 AM
  #181  
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rather than turn the crank, see what a crank kit will go for with bearings. ebay has them all the time for more or less what you're paying him to turn the crank for. it's OK to turn a crank, but SBC cranks are quite plentiful..... I'd get a new one just because it's stronger, and it may be cheaper. just my 2 cents.
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Old 05-21-2005, 01:48 PM
  #182  
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now comes the fun stuff

you get to figure out what compression ratio you want to run.

if you plan to use a power additive (NO2, Turbo, Supercharger) in the future (after college perhaps?) then a forged piston that'll give you low compression ratio would be good.

But I have a feeling that what you want is just a reliable, sexy, cruiser... I'd go with Hypereutectic pistons. They have a much greater tensil strength than forged, and cost less.

Cast pistons would probably suffice in your case, but why cheap out when you have the chance to build it right the first time (the easy time).

Streetable compression ratios would be from 8:5 (and less obviously) to around 9:5. Some people go to around 10:1, use 92 octane, and octane additive every time they go to the gas station, but personally, I wouldnt want to have to even bother with the octane additive.

9:5 you should be able to run on premium easy, with some room to spare, or if you want to go a little crazy on the timing it would be borderline.


8:5 would be good for regular gas though.


BTW, the higher the compression ratio, the more power you will make. I believe it's that for every .1% CR you'll add 2% more power, or something like that. I'll have to re-check that, but I'm fairly sure that's what numbers they're supposed to be.
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Old 05-21-2005, 05:16 PM
  #183  
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Originally posted by Burn
This post is going to make me cry. My first car was an 82 Z-28 with a carbed 350 out of a vett in it. I think I paid $1200 for it. After the engine blew I pulled it and dropped a TPI 350 out of a 91 Z28 into it. Everything was ready to roll and the order was placed for a new chip to bypass the vats. One day before the chip came a guy in a dodge ram fell asleep on the way to work and ran into my car as it sat waiting for the last part. BAMMM It was crushed!!! It was hit so hard that it spun around in the parting lot and was sitting facing the wroge way. The drivers seat was about half as wide as it should have been! The poor girl never seen it coming.
Thats similar to a story i have. The first car i learned to work on was a 84 mustang 5.0. I rebuilt the motor (with the help of a friend of course), put a performer intake, .498 lift cam, put long tubes with custom true duals, swapped a posi rear end, did brakes, all regular maintenance, etc. I had 1k miles on a new motor and was about to put a c4 with a 3000 stall in it and about a week before hand BAM! a guys tire blew out (going 25 supposidly) and he lost control taking out the whole drivers side of my car totaling it out. I was so upset, but i moved on to better things getting a 2000 z28 1 year later and totaling that out in 3 weeks thanks to a deer running in front of my car and it flipping into a ditch. Now im awaiting the next project....a 3rd gen with a ls1 (cam, springs, ls6 intake) and a t56 transmission.
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Old 05-21-2005, 10:40 PM
  #184  
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5_21_05 Weekend Update!

Originally posted by sellmanb
now comes the fun stuff ..............

But I have a feeling that what you want is just a reliable, sexy, cruiser...


You're absolutely right. A reliable sexy "SAFE" cruiser is the #1 Goal. I'm sure Derek wants to impress some of the girls that are getting into the **** Burners.....

Whenever there are "nickels & dimes" concerned we'll make the upgrades (I'll pay for....). When an upgrade is more expensive we have to really determine what the "Dollar vs Gain" results will be.

We've got a whole lot of car here to restore; Paint, Interior/Sound, Suspension? If we dump all the available money in the motor........ It'll run like a raped ape, but look and drive like crap. One thing is absolutely sure we have to eliminate all the zip ties, hot glue, mangled brackets, wrong tranny mounts, improperly installed brakes (done that), etc. etc.

We're determined to do a ACE #1A job on the short block & heads. But as ya'll may have figured from our final plan (previous post). We're cutting out the possiblity of a better intake and Performance Carb until a later date. We're also settling for a set of headers that were not on the TGO preferred list. They were pretty cheap and will certainly perform better than stock manifolds.... if we get a year out of them we will upgrade to a better set-up.

There are a few other items that we hadn't mentioned that we are also spending money on... B&M Megashifter (looks pretty cool to Derek and the OEM shifter is screwed up), Needs new tires badly (going with "Classic 80's" raised white letters), Battery is shot, Seats need replacement or recover, Headliner, Carpeting... The nickels are adding up...

Originally posted by sellmanb
......Streetable compression ratios would be from 8:5 to around 9:5. Some people go to around 10:1, use 92 octane, and octane additive every time they go to the gas station, but personally, I wouldnt want to have to even bother with the octane additive........8:5 would be good for regular gas though.
I'll stop by the machine shop on Monday or Tuesday afternoon. I spoke with the shop briefly about new pistons when they gave me the run down on the block. The machinist mentioned that there were a couple good options available that he thinks are a good choice for a street machine. When I meet with him I'll mention the 8.5 to 9.5 compression "range" as my preference.

We've attached a photo from today's activities..... As planned the entire day was Z-28. Junk Yards, Engine Pulling, a little porting and polishing..... Even the little guy had to lend a hand and he was pretty good at it.. At least he didn't drop it on me!

Kurt & Derek (& Karl)
Attached Thumbnails Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled-z28_enginepull1small.jpg  
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Old 05-22-2005, 05:16 PM
  #185  
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by the look of the hood it seems either the timing was way off and ran that way for a while, or there was a minor engine fire at some point... or is that just in the picture that it looks like that?
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Old 05-22-2005, 08:39 PM
  #186  
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Originally posted by sellmanb
by the look of the hood it seems either the timing was way off and ran that way for a while, or there was a minor engine fire at some point... or is that just in the picture that it looks like that?
Sellmanb,

There was some serious back firing through the carb and possibly a real fire. When we purchased the car there was no air filter assembly of any sort and the car would constantly back-fire and flame-up through the carb. I never attempted to rectify the situation with the timing or the overly rich carb as it was apparent we were going to rip the whole thing out.

In addition to what you noticed on the underside, the upper side of the hood was also damaged as it was missing a large portion of paint in a circular area about 8-12". Around that area, several inches of paint were just chipping off of the fiberglass.

We have spent countless hours removing all the paint from the scoop area, filling with spot putty priming and sanding. It was horrible and time consuming job to preserve the sharp edges and proper contour of the hood.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
Attached Thumbnails Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled-z28_hoodrepairsmall.jpg  
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Old 05-22-2005, 08:57 PM
  #187  
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Kids in a Candy Store!!

Originally posted by DAVECS1
....................I have small stuff laying around that did not make the final cut if you know what I mean. If you do not know what i mean you will! .................................
DaveCS1 & TGO Friends,

We did it again! We went to the J.Yard to get a better reinforcement for behind the front nose. We hadn't noticed ours was cracked and we didn't grab the reinforcement when we got the new RED nose.

The J.Yard has a policy of $29.95 for all you can carry (in one trip). We had a few odds and ends and were certainly going to pay the full price of $29.95. So why not just grab the whole darn nose! My thoughts exactly!!! Take it ALL!!!

The newer style front end is in great shape, and is clearly better constructed than the original 1982 version. But, we'll stick with the '82. We've even considered painting it gold when the car gets done..... JUST IN CASE!.


One idea (that Derek and his little brother LOVE) is to intall standard 110 volt lighting into the headlamps and turn signals, hang it from the wall in their room. It becomes the coolest room lighting ever! Perfect for Camaro Boy's Room!

Honestly can't take too much credit for that idea as we have seen similar things on Extreme Home Makeover and Monster House.

We gotta stop going to the J.Yard....

I somebody needs a White nose... Let me know. I have no idea what year it is although Derek thinks it might be a '90.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
Attached Thumbnails Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled-z28_whitefrontsmall.jpg  
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Old 05-23-2005, 12:03 AM
  #188  
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I have to agree with sellmanb on this one. If you guys are investing in new pistons, I would seriously consider at a minimum the hyperutectic pieces. They are much better than cast and if you are truly building this machine for the long haul, they will hold up better. I assume you will be teaching Derek to tune the car himself. With that will comes stints of burning lean and rich. This will require the engine to take a bit of abuse, all the more reason to consider a piston upgrade. I know the nickles and dimes can creep up on you, I have been there...... wait a minute I still am ,,but this is an area that can use those nickles and dimes. Cheap interiors and cheap strait clean bodies look good if cared for and will not comprimise the performance and reliability of your ride.

On another note, let me step down of my soap box, are you using a one or two piece rear main seal? I have parts left over from an expensive mistake, but they are from a one piece rear main seal engine. Most noteably a Scat 9000 crank that has 15 minutes on it. I would have it magnufluxed, if I was to use it, but I am confident it is in good shape. Also seven GM powder metal rods, the eighth one exited stage right. I also have seven forged pistons but they are for a standard bore 350. The block was a bowtie block brand new.
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Old 05-23-2005, 12:12 AM
  #189  
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CC Q-Jet - Additional Parts

Originally posted by five7kid
............As far as chip tuning goes, the HO 350 Camaro Conversion Kit PROM was 24502457 for '82-'84 LG4, and 24502456 for all others - $66.63 from gmpartsdirect.com. That was with a 1228079 ECM, which is not available (on that site, at least). .............I'm running a chip I got from JC Whitney back in 1999 (no longer available, apparently, all they have now is stuff for sport compacts), .........I run regular 85 octane with the base timing set at 8 degrees, it runs fine and doesn't have pinging problems.

Oh, don't forget knock sensor & module if you go with CC q-jet. You'll need 350 pieces, which again from the HO 350 kit and gmpartsdirect.com are 10456288, $27.80, and 16128261, $48.39.
Five7Kid and DaveCS1,

Thanks for looking up all the part numbers for the CC-Q-Jet. We're pretty far from "running condition" at this stage so we're going to keep a print-out of this data and refer back to it when we get ready to run. We're be back begging for more help in no time.

Please verify this; The L98 was the 350 engine and it wasn't offered until 1987, it came only with TPI? The LG4 and L89 were 305's, with a Q-Jet and were offered 1982-87? Was there ever a HO 350 Camaro/Z-28 with a Q-Jet? Or was this a GM over-the-counter only deal?

These engine codes are really confusing!

I've got my F-Body CD and cannot find anything listed with a 5.7 and a Q-Jet?

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
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Old 05-23-2005, 12:16 AM
  #190  
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Originally posted by five7kid
...the Pioneer damper that came up for 1986 & '87 Camaro LG4 was DA3051, and for 1987 Camaro L98 was DA3071. My current stock 1986 LG4 damper is 8", 12 o'clock ... (I still think we're splitting hairs about the dampers, at least for a 5500 RPM max engine.)
Not to continue beating a dead horse, I finally figured out what I was thinking before - '87 LB9 is also DA3071. I came across the LB9 damper & cover I have while looking for some other things, and it is definately different than my '86 LG4 - 6-3/4", thin ring, 1:30 timing mark. My LG4 part looks like your 305 part.

Oh, I had the diameter of the LG4 wrong, too - it's 6-3/4" (that's what I get for trying to picture things rather than going out and looking).
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Old 05-23-2005, 12:24 AM
  #191  
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L98, 350, VIN code 8, was only offered with TPI, starting in the 1987 model year. There weren't any production 350's with q-jets.

LB9 is 305 TPI, VIN code F. That's a "Bee", not an eight.

LG4 and L69 were 305's with q-jets, VIN code H and G, respectively. The L69 was the only true "HO" engine offered in 3rd gens. Q-jets were used from '82 through '87, as you stated.

The "HO 350 Camaro Conversion Kit" was offered through dealers to install a ZZ4 crate engine in carb'd Camaros, in an emissions-legal package. It is no longer available, unless a dealer happens to have it sitting in the corner of their warehouse and forgot about it. I'm doing basically a clone of that kit with headers and iron heads.
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Old 05-23-2005, 12:26 AM
  #192  
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Originally posted by DAVECS1
I have to agree with sellmanb on this one. If you guys are investing in new pistons, I would seriously consider at a minimum the hyperutectic pieces. They are much better than cast and if you are truly building this machine for the long haul, they will hold up better.
We're sold.... I'll make sure to try and spell that word right when I order them at the machine shop. "hyperutectic"

Originally posted by DAVECS1
....are you using a one or two piece rear main seal?
The current block (1973-4) and crank are two-piece rear seal(s). I wish I could capitalize on the mistake but apparently not.

According to the Shop our current rods checked out fine as the bearings did not actually "spin". The crank was apparently in pretty good shape but the two journals that we had wondered about could not be fixed properly without a slight (I think he said 10 thousanths) undersize for all rod journals.

They also want to line-bore the crank mains. He said they were "a little loose".

I'm going to meet with them early this week to approve/modify the work order.


Sincerely,
Kurt
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Old 05-23-2005, 12:29 AM
  #193  
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Re: CC Q-Jet - Additional Parts

Originally posted by kboehringer
The LG4 and L89 were 305's, with a Q-Jet and were offered 1982-87?
Oh, I bet that was a fat-fingered "L69", right?
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Old 05-23-2005, 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by kboehringer
We're sold.... I'll make sure to try and spell that word right when I order them at the machine shop. "hyperutectic"
Actually, it's "hypereutectic". Often called "hypers".

(Let me know if you want an explaination of what "hypereutectic" means.)
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Old 05-23-2005, 12:47 AM
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I've heard conflicting definitions. can you post it for al of us? I've heard everything from half-*** forged to specially heat treated, and I'm still not actually sure what the difference is... other than they're better than stock.
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Old 05-23-2005, 12:55 AM
  #196  
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Explain Please!

Originally posted by five7kid
Actually, it's "hypereutectic". Often called "hypers".

(Let me know if you want an explaination of what "hypereutectic" means.)
Five7Kid,

Don't have a CLUE what that means...... Please explain.

OTHER - OFF TOPIC

One of my friends was over this afternoon and we were showing him the Z-28 and explaining our plans etc.

He mentioned that the markings on the sides of the head meant something good. I did a search for "Camel Humps" and found a ridiculous thread from a guy with a 307 Camaro. nuf said..

To avoid searching for hours... Do these really mean ANYTHING?

Thanks,
Kurt

EDIT:
I continued searching and found a photo on one of the posts. I also learned that true "Camel Humps" are very old technology and wouldn't have the proper bolt holes etc. need for a modern car. The markings on these don't mean squat and if they were "Camel Humps" I wouldn't have wanted to use them anyway.... Sorry for the off-topic... should have kept looking first.

Kurt
Attached Thumbnails Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled-z-28_camel.jpg  

Last edited by kboehringer; 05-23-2005 at 01:21 AM.
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Old 05-23-2005, 02:09 AM
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Golden opportunity on those camel humpers

You can sell them to someone as camel humps. Some of the old timers will jump for joy, like your friend who pointed them out. This could help negate the cost of whatever mods you might do to the car. Granted you might not sell them for too much, but still

If you give us a side picture of the ground effects on that nose we can help you find out what year it came off of. If it has little "scoops" on the end of the ground effects then it's a 91-92 ground effects. If it's not then it's more than likely from a 90 like Derek thought.

Also, I'm not completely sure about the bumper support fitting that year nose... you may want to try a test fit.


BTW. you guys did a GREAT job with the hood! a little smudgy around the edges, but it looks like a work in progress and most of the hard stuff looks done
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:45 AM
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"Hypereutectic" - "hyper" means above or over. "Eutectic" is an alloying term, in the case of aluminum, the percent of silicon in the aluminum. At the eutectic point, the metal goes from solid to liquid as temperature rises. At a percentage above or below the eutectic, there is a middle "slush" phase of part solid and part liquid. The easiest to cast is an eutectic alloy, since it is all liquid until it solidifies in the mold. However, the higher the silicon content, the stronger and more wear resistant the metal. So, a casting process has been developed using an aluminum with other helpful alloying elements, that keeps the hypereutectic alloy all liquid as it is poured, until the mold is filled. It is then allowed to cool and solidify, forming a finished product with greater strength than regular cast but cheaper than forged.
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Old 05-23-2005, 11:38 AM
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Five7kid, thank you for catching my speeling mistake. If you all have not figured out by now I cannot type, and when I type fast and furiously, well it comes out sounding like I have a 2nd grade education.

At any rate Five7kid, that was a good explanation on the pistons, but I was disappointed you did not talk about the alpha beta phase and the precipitating process that takes place during the cold working of the alloys during the casting process.

All joking aside flyitlikeustoleit (I think that is right) pretty much sumed it up. They are better than stock and thats about all you need to now unless you are going nuts with power adders or alkayline fuels like methonol or alchohol. There are some advantages to hypereutectic pistons as far as tolerances during a heat cycle is concerned and the amount of impact they can take.
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Old 05-23-2005, 11:51 AM
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are they good for nitrous?
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