LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Hypereutectic pistons are less resistant to detonation than even cast pistons, so I wouldn't use nitrous or any other power adder with them...hence the expressions you often hear at the track, "hyper pathetic", "hyper-u-cracked-it", etc. They are better in some respects than a cast piston, and superior for a naturally aspirated engine, but they are more brittle than cast and will not tolerate detonation for very long. If you think you might ever want to use a power adder, go forged. If not, they'll be fine.

flyitlikustolit

just wondering. I had thought about n2o, but had pretty much ruled it out and decided to go N/A 383 for now, just to drive the car and have a lot of fun. this just confirms it. thanks!

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Actually they work good in boosted applications if you can keep the detenation to a min. They do not expand or contract as much as cast or forged pistons. There for they hold up well to the high heat conditions caused by forced induction.

firehawkslplus

IIRC the differance between a regular cast and hyper. is the percentage of silicon present regular castings only have 6-7 percent silicon content. The hypers have 14-18 percent this has the effect of making the piston harder and therefor stronger it also allowes runnig closer tolerances (piston to wall) than a forging "=" less piston slap, better ring seal and easier on the cylinder walls. All of this doesn't mean much on a race eng with regular tear downs; but on a street car expected to go 10's of thousands of miles. The down side to that hardness is makes them more brittle and likely to crack under detonation. In trems of price and stength fall in between forged and rebuilder castings.

Personal testimonial is I used them in an IT car that was later moved to more auto-X, track day for 5yrs never missed abeat. Retired when a 30 year old axel let go at PCA event in Corpus Christi lucky for me it was slow R. hander. Spun it , plowed the field, walked away. Got it back to gether and gave it away to a fellow H-body. That eng still running to day.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

In a low boost application with perfect tuning, they're fine...but if you're building a motor with the intent of using a supercharger, turbo, nitrous etc forged pistons are the way to go. Actually, cast pistons are better in these applications than Hyper, since they aren't as hard (brittle).

kboehringer

TGO Guys,

I talked to the machine shop on the phone today and the price quoted actually included "Hypers" (as the machinist and others on this board have referred to them).

The price was $13.00 each. I didn't ask how much for the cast or the forged. Since we are not looking at; boost, N20 or other similar add-ons, we'll take your recommendations and use the Hypers.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek.

kboehringer

It does not have the little scoops on the side so Derek must have been correct with the year ('90).

The headlamp reinforcement is an identical match. And although we have not done a Test Fit of the '90 nose the F-Body CD indicates that the bumper's reinforcement is the same part (#16502633). We've decided to paint it gold when the car get's painted..... Just in case. We can always remove it from Derek's wall and bolt it on...Let's just hope we don't have to!

We're going to be spending the remainder of the week and the long weekend cleaning the engine bay and the underside of the car. It's a real mess under there! There is also some rocker panel damage on the passenger side that needs repair.

We have not been able to find the correct mounting for the TH700 in any of the J.Yards. They must be pretty popular as several cars still had tranny's but no mounts. We'll keep looking this weekend. If we don't have any luck this weekend we'll buy the aftermarket item that one of the guys suggested in a previous post.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

If you mean a 700r4, you are in luck I just happen to have an extra cross member and possibly a torque arm mount.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Don't toss your stock crossmember out. List it on the classifieds on this board. People are looking for them all the time for putting TH350's in their 3rd gens.

wgripp

iTrader: (1)

My highschool used to have an entire wing dedicated to shop classes. We had small engines, auto shop, wood/metal shop, household wiring, drafting, etc. Then the computer age came along, and they moved all those classes to votech (meaning that anyone who wanted to go to college couldn't learn any practical skills). There used to be 6 instuctors who worked down there. I was fortunate to take a couple classes (shop and drafting) with the last remaining teacher. He retired after I graduated, and now my hs doesn't even offer shop. It's pathetic. Home economics is still around. The politcally correct school system wants to neuter our kids, and make them pay thru the nose for auto repair.

kboehringer

Five7Kid,

Our cross member is anything but "STOCK". As with everything else on this car it's been modified/screwed up. I seriously doubt anyone would want this thing to support their tranny.

All of my mechanics at work are all "Exceptional" welders, Mig, Tig, Stick, Braze, Stainless, Aluminum...... They can weld anything.....When they saw this welding they couldn't stop laughing (mostly I think at me for buying this car)!

Sincerely,
Kurt

kboehringer

DaveCS1

Great News, thanks! We can avoid a day on the J.Yard circuit. We know what happens when "I" go to the J.Yard. LOL LOL LOL

Using the information we found on Nasty28.com, a 700R4 is the only thing this tranny can be. We could not numbers on it.

We think we have the proper torque arm mount. We will verify with the F-Body CD. The torque arm has also been modified (those seem to be plentiful in the local J.Yards) We assume the 700 is longer as it seems that the torque arm was cut an welded back together (also very poor welding). We think it was probably shortened. My mechanics are going to verify the weld strength and either reinforce/replace the welds or cut another J.Yard torque arm down and repair it properly.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

kboehringer

wgripp,

It is very unfortunate. There is not a Vo-tech system in our area (as far as I know). I remember Wood Shop and Metal Shop from Junior High and High School in Pennsylvania. I remember looking forward to those classes. Derek also enjoyed Auto Shop. He had to spend 1/3 of the year in the library working on other projects as Auto Shop was abruptly cancelled.

Sincerely,
Kurt

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

As far as I know there should only be one size of torque arm. Your welders should not have to cut anything. I am planning on making my own torque arm at some point or another, but after buying wheels and getting some PMD seat upholstered, my car budget is getting a little thin. If I can offer any advice on torque arms "I would be weary of the Edlebrock piece" I bought one brock it twice and returned to using the stock piece which never gave me problems and has yet to brake or twist. Never under estimate those GM engineers. At anyrate I think your most bang for the buck is an unmolested stock torque arm, with a polyurethane bushing.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

The F-body torque arms are all the same, at least all that I have ever seen, as far as length is concerned. Some do have the notch in the transmission end facing the opposite way, but if you run into one of these you can use it as long as you change your torque arm bushing to match. Even the 4th gen ones will work in a third gen, at the most a bushing change is all that is required.
BTW if you guys take a break anytime this weekend, come on up to the F-Body Gathering at the Marriot on Windy Hill Rd...its a great event (9th annual), and you guys will get lots of inspiration for your project!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The '82 & '83 manual tranny and TH200 torque arms are longer than TH700 and T5 torque arms, because the transmissions are shorter. That's why yours was cut & welded to get the TH700 in (I had a complete donor car, so I just swapped it over).

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

That is good information to know! Is that posted somewhere else on this site? I think it could be very helpful to those people restoring early thirdgens.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I've talked about it before, it's been discussed on the Tranny forum before. I chose not to put it in the V6 Swap sticky because it isn't V6-specific.

kboehringer

LT1Guy,

Just got finished looking over the fbodygathering.com web-site. We'll be there with a camera!! Next year we'll be registered! With the help of the guys on this board we should have a pretty respectable Z-28 by the time Gathering #10 rolls around!

Sincerely,
Kurt

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I forgot that it already had a TH700 grunged into it.

kboehringer

Five7Kid,

It is getting a little discouraging....EVERY thing we look at seems to have been Modified, Installed Improperly, Ruined, Missing, Rusty, Worn Out, or otherwise non-serviceable.

I am really looking forward to taking Derek to see the FBody Car show this weekend! We've got to see what the light at the end of the tunnel looks like.

Should be an opportunity to get RE-Encouraged about our project.

Sincerely,
Kurt

92heritageRS

Just stay with it. A wise person once told me "If you want something done right you have to do it your self". Thats the only way it will be the way you want it. Stay with it, the end result is well worth the work. Just take lots of pics from the show this weekend and post them for us.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

If all else fails, crossmember https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=261488

Only a couple of days to act on it, though.

You said you can get a proper torque arm from local JYs.

Yeah, stick with it. Not only do you have to do it yourself if you want it done right, anything worth doing is worth doing right.

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Do not get discouraged. This is a big project. Any car with integrity is. One thing i have learned is it is not going to get done overnight. It takes a while and that is part of it. This has nothing to do with budget or the type of car. Even the shows on TV that do a car correctly with an almost unlimited budget take weeks and months. And they are mostly building from a template nothing fancy or out of the ordinary. My car has been 3 years in the making and it is still far from finished. There will be a day when you slide under the car and you realize that the bottom is starting to look as clean as the top, and you start thinking to yourself, about how far you have come, and what a solid car you have built. You will have down falls ( I blew a custom built 427 small block within 15 minutes of starting it up.) You just have to step away, for awhile, maybe even find another hobby (I chose motorcycles).

firehawkslplus

The only thing I could add would be : do one thing at a time don't try and plan out everything all at once. Just keep doing the next logical or possible thing. No one job is that big a deal it's not redoing the whole car it's abunch of little jobs done one after the other. Eng. swaps to a complete rewire soon you realize there just arn't that mean things left to do and there mostly detail.

sellmanb

Since you'll be replacing the tranny mount, you ought to get a poly trans mount bushing, and torque arm mount bushing from Spohn's website.

These arent too hard to install. The only problem I had with them was that the stud they gave for the trans bushing was slightly too large to stick in the stock 700R4 crossmember, so I took a drill and made the hole slightly larger. It took about 2 minutes, which was mostly me grabbing my drill lol.

You CAN get the correct sized torque arm from Spohn as well, but it will not be nearly as cheap as if you got one from a junkyard (though Spohn's is a huge upgrade). The stock one bends way too easily, which induces wheelhop. Spohn's torque arm is much sturdier if you want some good launches. But I'm sure you guys would be perfectly fine w/ a stock one (from a junkyard, that hasnt been cut and re-welded). I wouldnt re-use that torque arm... I could only imagine how much it will suck when the weld breaks on that torque arm, and your rear differential flies upward, breaking the U-joint, and then all of a sudden there's a driveshaft where your "middle seat" in the rear is supposed to be.

kboehringer

Sellmanb,

We went to the J.Yard today and found an '84 Z-28 (CC Carb)with some good parts on it. We grabbed the entire wiring harness from the engine compartment for a measley $12. I has a couple damaged wires/plugs, but nothing we can't fix easily. I also noticed that the Torque arm looked to be in good shape. We have to go back tomorrow and grab the sensors from the heads, manifold, brake manifold, power steering pump, exhaust manifold, etc. as they are all different from those our engine had. We planned to grab the torque arm as well.

I looked at the Spohn Torque arms and agree they would be a heck of an upgrade. We'll need to wait until next year to get one of those. I noticed the drive shaft safety loops on their mounts and arms. Until we can afford the real thing I might try to get my welders to create something similar.

We went to the FBodyGathering last night and the full crowd had obviously not arrived yet. There were (at that time) very few Third Gens, a few First and Second Gens but a parking lot full of Fourth Gens. We're going back tomorrow for their Stereo Competition at 1:00pm. Hopefully, we can find a couple '82's to look over.

Derek was extremely impressed with the Third Gens we saw.

Sincerely,
Kurt

kboehringer

ThirdGen Friends,

We've spent a lot of time this weekend CLEANING the engine compartment and belly of the PIG with a power washer. We have more to get but it's beginning to look better.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

kboehringer

TGO Friends,
Thanks for the encouragement.... We needed it the other day.

We did wiring this weekend (before the rain) and firehawkslplus's suggestion worked well... "do one thing at a time". We determined that wiring was the next most important thing to handle and we removed and installed (most of) a new harness.

LT1Guy pointed us to a J.Yard we had not visited, we found an '86 that WAS a CC-QJet and had the harness.

We learned a LOT about F-Body wiring. As others had mentioned, previously it's not THAT BAD. We replaced 3 of the 4 primary strands.
1.) Computer inside Pass. Fender to Carb, Intake, Etc.
2.) Engine's Starter, Alt, etc. from Driver's F.wall
3.) Heat & A/C around the Pass. F.wall to inside.
4.) Lighting from Driver's F.wall.

We didn't replace #4 (although we have it) as the signal lamps are a different shape/style and will not fit in our '82's lamps. The lamp wiring seems to be identical with the '82.

Getting the Heat & A/C wiring out of the console and pulling the new wires back in (without damage) was the hardest part.

As usual we found more mangled wires and alligator clips inside the console.

Derek and I were talking about it the other day. Although we've found a LOAD of dumb moves made on this car by previous owner (s) we shouldn't expect to find it in much better shape. After all it was only $750 and.... It is nearly 25 years old!.... Considered "antique" next year (Georgia).

If we had spent thousands on day #1, we'd have a car that had been cared for better. However, we wouldn't be working together as much and although it stinks sometimes.... it's usually a heck of a lot of fun!!

Thanks again for the encouragement.
Kurt & Derek Boehringer
Peachtree City, Georgia

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The engine compartment looks great now (and very familiar...). All the more reason to consider repainting the car the same color, IMHO.

Curious if you had any issues with the computer pass-through at the passenger fender. My donor was an '86 as well, and that connector was bigger than the '82 - I had to enlarge the hole for it in the kick-panel. But, my '82 was a V6 originally.

I think you'll find the new wiring a welcome change when you start putting it back together and getting it running.

I also agree with the $'s vs. togetherness thing. My son has done more with me on this current 305 to 350 project than he ever has. He was only 11 & 13 when I did the original swap and upgrades, he didn't seem interested at all then. Now, however, there's the added incentive of him being able to race it when it's done - that he's interested in (even though he knows it's still going to be Dad's to drive...).

kboehringer

NO Problem. The hole in the wall was exactly the same size. However the bundle was somewhat SMALLER as I think the Cross-Fire probably had a few more wires.

There are a few items yet to figure out as the DONER CAR had no carb and a few of the "Little Black Boxes" were missing on the F.Wall. We also think the harness is set-up for an electric fan (which wasn't there). We may decide to make the fan upgrade as well. We grabbed all the sensors our car did not have; Power Steering, Low on block near Starter, Head Temps, Therm Housing, etc. It also seems that the Alternator may have had different wiring requirements (less wires).

HOPEFULLY, the wires are mapped the same from the outside firewall to the fuse panel otherwise....."Derek, do you smell smoke?"

Sincerely,
Kurt

wgripp

iTrader: (1)

If I were you, I'd keep your camaro that nice color. You don't see too many thirdgen's like that.

Bill

kboehringer

wgripp,
We're gonna stick with the gold color. It's way too hard to change without a COMPLETE disassembly of the car. We hate seeing the inside of doors, hoods, and trunks a different color. We also haven't seen any others this color "yet". The color is beginning to GROW on us!
Thanks,
Kurt & Derek

flyitlikustolit

I agree. mine is black, and i'm only changing the color cuz I'm tired of everybody saying "HEY! that's KITT!!!! where's the little light thingy????"

wgripp

iTrader: (1)

HAHAH. I have a black GTA. No KITT comments yet =) KARR was way cooler tho. He didn't have a wussy voice, and David Hasselhoff (sp?) never had a chance to say "WOOOO" when turning on his windshield wipers, I mean pushing turbo boost.

I hafta admit, Knight Rider was the reason I wanted a Trans Am in the first place. But I dont like the idea of a KITT or KARR conversion for my bird anymore. I like the stock ground effects and wheels, but I wouldn't mind a light scanner on the front of the car if it was integrated into my existing nose.

-Bill

BruceEmbry

Hi,
The 305 engine may be the orginal engine. I would suggust that you have the 305 check, comprsssion test it and if it passes that test, I would go and restore the CrossFire. Or I would do a TunePort conversion. But restoring the CrossFire may be more cost effective.

CrossFire injection is not vary powerful, but what you have is a 23/24 year old car that could be vary easily restored. From looking just at the one picture, it looks like the body is in good shape. In a few years it is possible that the value will skyrocket on that old car.

It is possible to restore the computer harness. I would first remove, strip off the tubing and check all of the wiring. The connectors that are mssing may be found at your local Chevy dealer. You can also check ClassicIndustries, YearOne, etc.

But before you do anything, get yourself a Haynes manual #79019. These manuals can be purchased from Classic Industries.

In 1998 I converted my 82 to TPI using all new parts.


Sorry I jump into this thread late. The carb-Computer CC is a good choice. The TBI will be more durable.

kboehringer

Bruce,

Sorry you jumped into the middle of this post.... It's pretty long to catch up to. If you have the opportunity to quickly review the previous pages of the post you'll see how far we have come and how much help all the Guys at TGO have provided us along the way.....


RE: Very easily restored...

The engine was not original as the numbers indicate it came from an '83 Pontiac (probably a firebird). The trans. is also not original as it is a TH-700 (possibly the same firebird) The engine ran but extremely poorly.

The wiring harness was COMPLETELY hacked. ALL of the Emissions and Cross-Fire equipment was completely gone. Several people had offered to supply/sell parts they had but we needed EVERYTHING, Manifold, TBI (x2), Air Cleaner, Wiring Harness, Fuel Pump, Air Pump, Exhaust Manifolds, Proper Distributor.....

Since the Cross-Fire was only offered for two years, parts in the J.Yards are impossible to find. My son and I have been hunting parts for the conversion to a CC Carb set-up. That's been a little difficult......We have never seen a Cross-fire (or a Camaro that WAS a Cross-fire) in any one of a dozen+ J.Yards we've been visiting almost weekly for the past six months.

We're not at all interested in "RE-SALE VALUE" as this is a "Father & Son Project" the Z-28 has more sentimental value than anyone could ever offer us in cash for this car. Hopefully, this vehicle will remain intact, and in my son's possession for many years.

Since you have done a changeover on an '82, your input could prove very valuable. Please keep an eye on this thread and throw in any advice you have about where we are, and where we are going. We are making some progress every week. Our 350 4-Bolt is due back from the Machine Shop in week or two......

Thanks for the input
Kurt

BruceEmbry

Hi kboehringer

I still have the orginal CCC computer from my LG4. I kept thinking that someone could use it someday. When it was pulled in 98 it was still working.

You and your son are welcome to it. If you guys are intersted Please send me PM with your address and I will ship it to you free.

Sincerely,
BruceEmbry

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

On the Crossfire setups (I know you're not going to run one, and I think thats a good thing!): I have seen 2-3 complete ones at local yards (mostly Pull-A-Part), and many "near complete" units. If anyone here needs Crossfire parts, let me know what you're looking for and if I run across it I'll snag it for you.

BTW Kurt, you're right about better prices at the Buford Hwy Pull-A-Part. Yesterday Redraif and I came out of there with: 2 complete Fiero doors (w/int panels), 2 Fiero hoods, a Fiero GT rear section (the whole upper clip, to make my notchback into a fastback), a Fiero GT rear bumper cover, a near complete set of smooth body moldings, a complete set of NICE dove gray Fiero seatbelts and all the interior panels to match, a console, a Firebird instrument cluster, and lots of miscellaneous brackets and fasteners for a total of $219!!!! Glad you could get some of the goodies off of the Firebird up there!

kboehringer

TGO Friends,

We've been extremely limited in our Z-28 work for the last several days. It's been raining Cats & Dogs in Atlanta. However, we've used the time to Bead Blast and paint many little pieces, brackets, for the engine compartment, head lamp buckets, etc. We're very fortunate to have unlimited access to bead blaster, it's been invaluable in getting all the gunk, rust, and old paint off.

Does anybody watching this thread have a '86 with a CC-Qjet? We'd love to have a photo taken from the front of the intake (passenger side) looking toward the Distributor. We would use it to see house and wire routing and connections.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Hey I am sorry for the delay in getting that part to you. I have also been busy. I just received a shippment of new car parts. I got them all on to attend a show last Sunday (that got rained out), and then had my fuel pump go out as I was heading home from the show, but those new wheels looked great on the side of the road

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I took this after I pulled the carb. But, the harness is laying there for the general lay-out.

I'll have to check the computer where I saved all my pics and see if I took one like that with the carb still on there. If not, it'll probably be a couple of weeks before I can take another, I'm afraid.

kboehringer

Five7Kid,

Thanks for the quick response. This should help us figure out where "Most" of the stuff should be.

Thanks
Kurt

BruceEmbry

Hi
The picture is missing the air management stuff, smog-pump, etc. I'am going to scan and print some pages from my haynes manual to include in with the computer.
You'e have to have the air management in order to pass emissions in GA.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

That was a mid-process shot while taking the engine/trans out for upgrading.

Hasn't the car already been through GA emissions? Or was that something else?

kboehringer

Five7Kid,

Yes. The car passed for 2005. However, it MAY have to be re-inspected one (1) last time on/before my birthday next year (May/2006).

However, if I have read the rules correctly the 25 year antique window begins at the "Manufactured Year" (1981) not the Model Year (1982). I may be able to apply for the "Antique Plate" in May rather than have the vehicle inspected......Don't know for sure..... If it passed this year..... It'll pass next year. I have not seen ANY sign of a visual inspection. We have lived in GA for 6+ years. We've had 4-cars inspected each year and NEVER has a hood been opened for any of the inspections.

For the newer of our vehicles they just plug-in to the computer port, the older vehicles ride the wheels for about 60 seconds at 25mph and get their exhaust sniffed. That's it!

Kurt

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Here's the only shot I took with the air cleaner off and carb on. It's from the "wrong" side, and an overall shot rather than detail of the carb.

kboehringer

Five7Kid,

Thanks, We can see a few more of the wires/connections in that photo. We should be able to get everything into the right area. From that point it might become a matter of seeing what is in that area the wires will reach.

We also have been planning to attend the local F-Body club's monthly meeting. Hopefully, one of the members has a Mid-80's 305 w/CC Carb.

Sincerely,
Kurt

stenseltizm

iTrader: (1)

That aluminum intake you media blasted looks great, what are you planning on doing to keep it looking nice. I'm blasting mine today, but I don't know how to protect it. can you clear-coat them or that just dumb? all I know is it looks like **** after sitting under hood for just this winter. I don't have a garage stall anymore, so It'll be sitting out every winter

kboehringer

stenseltizm,

Derek sprayed it with clear (High Temp PJ1). I'm a little bit concerned about it yellowing but we'll see what happens. They do get pretty nasty from what I can tell of the J.Yard ones. However we don't plan on spilling crap all over it and not spending the time to wipe it off.

OFF TOPIC....
A lot of guys have posts on the TGO site about tools they want or need. (i.e. Welders etc.) Having access to a good blaster would be my #1 tool choice if I was rebuilding a car like ours (25 yrs. old), and making use of so many J.Yard parts. Fortunately we have free and easy access to a washer and a blaster. A parts washer would be my #2 Choice an they can be had for only a couple hundred.


Kurt