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Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled

Engine Swap Everything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.

Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled

Old 03-13-2005, 09:22 PM
  #51  
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Car: 1982 - Z28
Engine: 350 / CCC Q-Jet
Transmission: THM-700R4
Axle/Gears: 10 Bolt - 3.73
Re: Friendly comment

Originally posted by 87pontiac
Hey there!
I just wanted to say how good it is in todays day and age to see father and son being able to do things together while the kids are still young enough to learn and do something other than drugs or drinking or getting into trouble.

Thanks for all the help to all of those in this terrific place called Third Gen, from all of us parents!!!!!

Ron and Devinn
New Brunswick,Canada
Thanks for the input Ron. We are having a lot of fun with the car. I also think that kids get into trouble and drugs because they "don't have anything to do" that's fun and available. My son can find something to do on this car for the next six months (Minimum).

I've had to catch up on some of the "Honey Do List" around the house for the past week. I'm heading out of the country (to Japan) for a work related trip and needed to put the Z28 on a "Partial" hold for a week or two. I assigned my son several projects and he's been doing pretty good with a few pointers here and there. He also enlisted the help of his little brother Karl and the dog (see attached photo) Although the dog only barks and drinks your soda if you're not looking...LOL LOL LOL. Derek will learn to put it on the roof next time LOL LOL LOL LOL.

In two weeks, when I'm back from Japan one of my employees is going to bring over a cherry picker from the plant and we're gonna get the motor and tranny out of the car. Until then, my son(s) get to remove the ground effects and tackle a few other projects.

I'd also like to thank 3rd Gen. This is a great place to get a little "parenting help"

We'll keep ya'll informed, Thanks again guys..........

P.S. Believe it or not I actually turned the A/C on in my car today. Spring is definately here in GEORGIA.....

Kurt & Derek Boehringer
Peachtree City, Georgia
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Old 03-13-2005, 09:41 PM
  #52  
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Car: 1982 - Z28
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Transmission: THM-700R4
Axle/Gears: 10 Bolt - 3.73
Originally posted by JamesY
Build sheets have a list of the items you have installed within the engine as you cannot just look at it and figure it out. When you get an engine rebuilt they give you a build sheet so you know what you got in there. Same with crate engines and such.
We did find some interesting stuff inside the driver's door. We pulled the inside panel off to replace the inside door handle and Dad found little baggies in bottom of the door. He rinsed it down the drive with the garden hose.

We don't have anything like build sheets. We diond't even have an owner's book untilwe found one for an 1983 in the junk yard. But my dad has a folder in the computer we put all the photos in and we've taken a lot. We also have a Spreadsheet where i have to log all the purchases from everything we buy. I place all the receipts in a clasped folder in case something needs to get returned. We want to keep track of how much we spend too. We're gonna try and make a budget for the whole car project.
I also have to enter all the numbers we find onto another spreadsheet. LIke the heads and their numbers and the rear axle, and etc.


Thank you,
Derek Boehringer
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Old 03-13-2005, 10:16 PM
  #53  
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Car: 1982 - Z28
Engine: 350 / CCC Q-Jet
Transmission: THM-700R4
Axle/Gears: 10 Bolt - 3.73
Originally posted by five7kid
Sounds like a poor job installing a TH700. It wasn't offered in 1982, and the trannies that were offered in 1982 were shorter. So, the torque arm is too long, the crossmember doesn't have the bolt holes needed to fully mount it, etc., etc., etc. Done right with factory TH700 parts, or conversion parts from someone like our sponsor, Spohn, above, it is actually pretty nice. Been there, done that.
We'll definately be purchasing the proper parts from Spohn to complete the job properly. I don't know if the TH700 was offered in '83 with the Firebird, but that is "most likely" where the Engine came from based upon the engine ID number. The guy probably replaced both at the same time.

My son purchased a "History of Camaro" book and it stated that the '82 Camaro was a fantastic handler and received great accolades for it's handling. Motor Trend named it car of the year. In 1984 the suspension was "slightly revised" and the 1984 Z28 won Best-Handling from Car & Driver defeating the CORVETTE!

However, the same book also indicated that the stock transmission was a major dis-appointment. "Even the cheapest economy cars of the time offered more up-top-date transmission offerings than the 1982 Camaro".

Maybe this is THE ONE change the previous owner made for the better on this Z-28. Although, I think it needs to be rebuilt......

Thanks Again,
Kurt Boehringer
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Old 03-13-2005, 10:54 PM
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Great job guys. You will have this thing a show stopper in no time.
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Old 03-14-2005, 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by kboehringer
We did find some interesting stuff inside the driver's door. We pulled the inside panel off to replace the inside door handle and Dad found little baggies in bottom of the door. He rinsed it down the drive with the garden hose.

Thank you,
Derek Boehringer

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Old 03-14-2005, 06:06 PM
  #56  
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Engine: 350 tbi
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maybe this could be a sticky?

I agree this is a very good read, its great that you and your son are both doing this project. I can't wait until my son grows up and we can do basically the same thing (but that will be a while, he is only 2).
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Old 03-14-2005, 10:18 PM
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Car: 1981 Chevy Malibu, 1987 Formula 350
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Re: maybe this could be a sticky?

Originally posted by red90bird
he is only 2.
so? haha
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Old 03-14-2005, 10:45 PM
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I tried telling my wife that, didn't work
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Old 03-18-2005, 11:58 AM
  #59  
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I too have been reading this post from the start. I'm currently a senior and have have the advantage to work on my Camaro with the help of my dad. I know for me its been a great experience, especially being that I get to spend time with my dad; my parents divorced when I was 4. I agree with the dads on here that it's never to early to start learning. Good job and keep us posted
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Old 03-21-2005, 05:22 PM
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something i cna add is this. if the car is still able to start i would suggest getting an aftermarket catback for it (something like a Hooker catback) it wont offer very much in the performance category, but it will be better flowing than the stocker and last longer. but more importantly he can learn to weld if he already hasnt and hell get to hear it when he starts it. that could be a nice little prize for a job well done. something to think about.
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Old 03-21-2005, 07:53 PM
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Hey guys, Redraif and I aren't too far from you (Jonesboro), and we'll be glad to help answer any questions you may have. I could probably help you out with some parts, and good (cheap) sources for nearly anything you'll need to rebuild your car. We both have a lot of experience with these cars and can help steer you in the right direction. We're both members of the ACFA (Atlanta Camaro-Firebird Assoc), which meets in Mcdonough
http://www.atlantacfa.com
Its a great group, with a growing # of third gen owners.
PM me if you have any questions, or we can help with anything!
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:28 AM
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hey kurt,

i've been reading your posts, and i have to say i'm both touched and jealous. I wish my dad had shown the interest in me, my interests, and most importantly, doing things with me to build a lasting relationship that you clearly have for your son. i promise you, 30 years from now, he's going to look back on this project as one of the best times of his life i hope he appreciates how lucky he is to have a dad like you.

a couple of things:

first, in the counties in georgia surrounding atlanta, cars must pass a yearly emissions test until they're 25 years old. while i agree that in your situation it would be much better and simpler to simply do away with the computer and use a carb, you'll have to pass emissions for two more years.

i wouldn't recommend crossfire injection, though. the computer-controlled quadrajet was also available in 82 and is, in my opinion, a better choice.

next, i'd recommend not putting any money at all into the 305, and i'd also recommend not building your own 350. you can get a NEW, complete, goodwrench 350 from scroggins-dickey for 1359.95. http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/130/...ate-Engine.htm

figure another 300 for shipping and core and you'd have 1700 in it. you can't rebuild your own engine for much less than that, and the one you rebuilt wouldn't have a warranty. if you want to save even more, there are a number of reliable engine remanufacturers which would put you with a complete engine for less than a grand.

the goodwrench 350 makes 245 horsepower .... more than enough for a kid getting his driver's license. as he matures, the two of you can continue your project super chevy got over 400 hp out of a goodwrench 350 .... go to their site and search on "goodwrench"
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Old 03-28-2005, 05:00 AM
  #63  
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Kurt and Derek,
I started reading this thread and just couldn't stop. It really reminds me of my father and myself 10 years ago. We have worked side by side on cars for years and it has been some of the best times of my life (sounds cheesy, but it's true). I think it is awesome to have a father/son combo working to make one of these cars great again. I will be keeping an eye out on this thread and will try to help out wherever I can. LT1Guy made you an offer and I want to make you one, too. If you need parts, don't hesitate to ask. I have 5 of these cars laying around and would be happy to help out in any way to keep this project going, just let me know. Let us all know what you need and keep up the great work...... I am gonna have my dad read your story tomorrow....he's gonna get a kick out of it
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Old 03-28-2005, 09:41 AM
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If you're interested. all the crossfire stuff youneed for $300. intake, tbis, wiring harness, computer. everything but the air cleaner.
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Old 03-28-2005, 12:34 PM
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If you need wiring help Just holler. I would be glad to answer any questions, remember a picture is worth a thousand words. I install fuel injection and various other electrical devices everyday, and if it counts for anything I am also an EE. At any rate you want to save the connector that enters the drivers side firewall. This hooks up to the lights and various gauges. If anyone has got a pinout laying around this would be helpful, otherwise I will dig one out.

I know you have recieved alot of advice, but I will throw my two cents in. If your shooting for reliability on a budget, I would stick with a conventional carb and distributor setup.

I would go with a clean rebuilt 350 running vortec or L98 heads, both can be had for reasonable prices online, or at the bone yard. Thunder racing has a nice inexpensive valvetrain for either head. Thunder racing probably has a good distributor for your car too.

For an intake I would run an Eldebrock dual plan RPM performer. If you have some extra cash I have had luck with the Air Gap version, and to make things simple I would find a 650 Eldebrock or carter carb. They are easy to tune and the jets, springs, and hangers are cheap.

I would remove all the computer harness wiring. Then I would make a list of the gauges you have and determine were their sending units are. I think most of them are analog and will be able to be wired up directly. If the lights work coreectly I would leave those alone. If the lights do not work they should be easy to fix. I would personally go buy three or four spools of different color 18 Ga wire and some heat shrink splices. I think it will go along way in getting things right.

Good luck!

Last edited by DAVECS1; 03-28-2005 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 03-29-2005, 01:12 PM
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Boy does this threaed bring back a flurry of fond memories. Whether or not your son realizes it yet, these are likely to be some of his most fond memories of his teenage years. There really is nothing better than boy and dad working on boy's car.

Anyway, I just wanted to provide some general (generic) advice that may or may not be of much use to you at this stage.

First the engine:

If I were to do a swap like you're facing, I would be looking for a 350 out of a 96 or newer Chevy truck or van. This is the "vortec" motor. It came with EFI, but that's of no concern to you. All you're interrested in is the long block. The advantage to this motor is that low milage examples are plentiful in junk yards, it's affordable, and it's a fantastic starting point. The beauty of this motor is that it's got the "vortec" heads, which are the latest and best GM heads for the small block chevy. I won't go into details here... you can do a "vortec" search on this site and find all you want to know. So... you wind up with an affordable 350 with fantastic heads. The cam that came in those motors was pretty mild, so until junior learns how to handle the power, it'll be perfectly good. Later on as his driving skills improve, substantial improvements can be made through different cam options.

The one "drawback" to the vortec heads is that a unique vortec-style intake manifold is required, but these are becoming very common and are available from Edelbrock, Holley, GM, and plenty of other sources for just a little more than a conventional intake. You can set the quadrajet on there, or spend a couple hundred bucks on a decent holley. You can reuse your vacuum advance HEI distributer. Wiring the engine will be basic and should not be terribly complicated. With the vortec intake, you won't have an EGR system, but if Georgia is like most other states, nobody does a visual emissions inspection, and it should still pass the sniffer just fine.

The result should be an inexpensive, uncomplicated engine that's only a cam swap away from being a hell of a performer.

Fuel:
The ceasefire injection had an electric fuel pump in the tank. I think it delivered somewhere between 9-14 pounds of pressure. A carb needs considerably less, so you'll need to get a fuel pressure regulator, or swap to a lower pressure pump. There should be ample information about this on the tbi board.

Transmission:
A stock crossmember and torque arm from any v6 or v8 thirdgen with the T5 or 700R4 will work. These are plentiful in junk yards. The only issue might be whether or not the subframe in that older car has the proper holes for the cross member. If not, it's nothing that a drill & tap can't fix.

Paint:
Black matches gold better than yellow and doesn't draw unnecessary attention to stock brake drums.

Anyway, regardless of what you choose, enjoy this. I know that I cherish the memories from the time that my father and I spent on my IROC.
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Old 04-25-2005, 01:46 PM
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This thread hasnt had any responses in a while, how is the progress coming along Kurt and Derek?
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Old 04-27-2005, 02:47 AM
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Originally posted by sellmanb
This thread hasnt had any responses in a while, how is the progress coming along Kurt and Derek?
I'm FINALLY BACK!

I spent almost three weeks in Japan. Upon my return I was required to take medication for two weeks to counter a "BUG" I had apparently caught while there.

I've been in "Less-than-perfect" condition until recently. This past weekend has been the first time we were able to lift the hood on the Z-28 (together) in about a month.

While I was in Japan one of my employees came to the house and showed Derek how to work with fiberglass and resin. He also showed him how to properly prep the car for paint. Derek had to "MEND TOGETHER" pieces we found at the J.Yard to repair the fiberglass ground effects under the doors. He did a GREAT job. They are all hand sanded, primed, wet sanded, and ready for a finish coat. I can't say the same for the car however.

My tryping speed is about back to normal and this weekend is FULL BLAST Z-28. The cherry picker is ready and the "NEW" 350 is sitting in my trailer waiting to be dismantled for the Machine shop.

We have not pulled the engine because of my illness and another reason I'll mention in another reply post.

Thanks for all the responses. I think we'll get that "Flaming Bow-Tie" back on this thread very quickly!

Arigato-goziamasu
(Thank you very much)

Sincerely,
Kurt
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Old 04-27-2005, 03:26 AM
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Originally posted by seanof30306
hey kurt,

first, in the counties in georgia surrounding atlanta, cars must pass a yearly emissions test until they're 25 years old. while i agree that in your situation it would be much better and simpler to simply do away with the computer and use a carb, you'll have to pass emissions for two more years.......

WOW are you ever right. We live in Fayette County and I still don't have the Darn thing registered. In Georgia there are no titles for vehicles over 20 years and I didn't get one with the car.

You can't register the vehicle without an emissions test and besides the fact that it won't pass (absolutely no doubt), I'm afraid to drive it the 3 miles to the closest inspection station.

We've had to fill out several forms and even have a police officer come to the house and sign a VIN number verification statement. I've had to order certified copies of court documents, etc. etc. In addition, the car was NEVER legally registered in Georgia that created more problems as there is no record of the VIN to "attach" digital information to .

(For those of you not in GEORGIA: It's not uncommon here in Georgia for folks to make their own cardboard plate "Tag Applied For" and drive for months or even YEARS with it. Or they'll slap any old tag on the car and drive, drive, drive!)

However....... We have a plan and that is why the 305 is still in the car. HERE'S the plan....

1.) I milk this SLUG over to the inspection station on Saturday morning.... My buddy follows with a F-150 and a tow chain...
2.) The slug fails the inspection and we get the failure certificate.
3.) Milk it back to the house and tear-out the engine and tranny Sunday Morning once the engine is cool.
4.) Rebuild the 350 and save every receipt.
5.) Leave the CAT in the exhaust and take it back for re-inspection with the new properly tuned (maybe a little lean) and maybe she'll pass. (They do not look at anything in Georgia)
6.) If she passes all is well, otherwise we'll claim an exemption as we will have spend well over the $600 repair limit to "Try to get the car to pass"
7.) In just over 1 year the Z-28 will be considered an antique and be entirely exempt in Georgia.

Originally posted by seanof30306

i'd also recommend not building your own 350. you can get a NEW, complete, goodwrench 350 from scroggins-dickey for 1359.95. figure another 300 for shipping and core and you'd have 1700 in it. you can't rebuild your own engine for much less than that, ......................................
I have done my share of engine rebuilding in years past (although it's been a while) and if this were MY car we'd do exactly that. Buy one drop it in and turn the key.....

However, Derek is REALLY going to need to know HOW the thing works. I want to go through the Plasti-Gauge routine, I want to have him put the rings on the pistons (properly orienting the gaps). I want him to use the ring compressor sleeve and attach the connecting rods to the crank. I want him to pack the pump and I want him to turn the Key for the first time.

I think THAT may make him think a LITTLE when "SHOW-OFF" time comes! Also, when the thing causes him trouble he needs to REALLY understand Intake, Compression, Power, Exhaust and the three requirements for any car to run.....Fuel, Fire, Compression.

He needs to know that the fuel system... Tank, Lines, Pump, Carb.
He needs to understand the spark system... Battery Power, Dist., Coil, Wires, Plugs, Piston Position....

If we buy major components "pre-assembled" he'll never learn what he needs to know to own and operate one of these cars.


Sincerely,
Kurt
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Old 04-27-2005, 03:49 AM
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Axle/Gears: 10 Bolt - 3.73
Originally posted by chesterfield
If you're interested. all the crossfire stuff youneed for $300. intake, tbis, wiring harness, computer. everything but the air cleaner.
Chesterfield.

Thanks for the response and sorry for the delay in responding.

We've completely given up on the idea of returning to the crossfire. If the car's engine and wiring harness had not been so heavilly modified we would have preferred to get back to ORIGINAL. But returning to cross-fire would cost more and give less in return than a relatively stock 350.

We've purchased a 350 for $50 and we'll do the following:
Stock 350 short block and heads (New Bearings, Rings, and Pistons if necessary bore over 10k +/- whatever..)
Stock or VERY mild cam.
Edelbrock performer Intake (non-RPM).
Holley or Similar Carb (Engine Mounted Fuel Pump & Electric Choke)
MSD Ignition System (Complete)
Headers (Whatever will fit)
A little chrome to add some "BLING" (not sure if that's Derek's proper term)

My electricians at work (all three) are convinced they can wire the entire car including dash guages, A/C, Cruise Control etc. in a day including all soldered connections and proper wire looms when we are ready for them. We won't let them do it but they will get a chance to help a little and provide some advice.

I don't know what the H.P. will be but it's got to be better than cross-fire which I think was about 180? It'll also be really EASY to troubleshoot and repair.

Thanks for the offer. It's just gonna be too much work to return to cross-fire and have so little return.

Thanks again,
Kurt
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Old 04-27-2005, 04:17 AM
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Originally posted by Jim85IROC
If I were to do a swap like you're facing, I would be looking for a 350 out of a 96 or newer Chevy truck or van. The advantage to this motor is that low milage examples are plentiful in junk yards.....
350's are harder to find than I thought they would be.... and the cost is higher than I thought. The 350 we purchased ($50) is from a mid-80's Chevy Truck. We have not run the numbers on it yet. Hopefully it will be......
...an inexpensive, uncomplicated engine that's only a cam swap away from being a hell of a performer.
....... but if Georgia is like most other states, nobody does a visual emissions inspection, and it should still pass the sniffer just fine..
I think (Hope) our 350 will pass the test if we keep the CAT and tune her up real well..... Maybe? Otherwise we probably have a work-around. Georgia is like may other states they just want a sniff they don't look or touch anything!

Fuel:
The ceasefire injection had an electric fuel pump in the tank.
I believe the previous owner must have removed (or disabled) the tank fuel pump as the 305 currently installed has a mechanical pump on the block. We're gonna pull the tank and look inside but I would prefer to stick with a mechanical if that will work with or current game plan? Will a mechanical work with a Holley (Probably a 650+)?

Transmission:
A stock crossmember and torque arm from any v6 or v8 thirdgen with the T5 or 700R4 will work. These are plentiful in junk yards. The only issue might be whether or not the subframe in that older car has the proper holes for the cross member. If not, it's nothing that a drill & tap can't fix.
This is great news.... We'll be looking for this on the weekend. THANK YOU for this info!!!!! We should be able to get the PROPER mount for only a couple bucks at the you-pull-it yard.

Paint:
Black matches gold better than yellow and doesn't draw unnecessary attention to stock brake drums.
I think once Derek sees the finished car with a good high gloss finish....... he'll see the error of his color choice and we'll be pulling the drums off for a coat of black paint!

Sincerely,
Kurt
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Old 04-27-2005, 04:31 AM
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Originally posted by 911rsq
Kurt and Derek,
I started reading this thread and just couldn't stop. It really reminds me of my father and myself 10 years ago. We have worked side by side on cars for years and it has been some of the best times of my life (sounds cheesy, but it's true). I think it is awesome to have a father/son combo working to make one of these cars great again. I will be keeping an eye out on this thread and will try to help out wherever I can. LT1Guy made you an offer and I want to make you one, too. If you need parts, don't hesitate to ask. I have 5 of these cars laying around and would be happy to help out in any way to keep this project going, just let me know. Let us all know what you need and keep up the great work...... I am gonna have my dad read your story tomorrow....he's gonna get a kick out of it
911rsq,

Thanks for the reply. I hope you and your dad got a chance to set the timing, change the oil or something together on one of these past weekends. I hope Derek & I will be able to find things to do together with this car for many years.

Hopefully, it will be in the family for many years provided we can avoid some of Georgia's "Wonderful Drivers" and avoid wrapping the thing around a tree or tele-pole.

We've had some problems finding a new nose. Our nose piece is warped in several locations (probably from Georgia Heat) and there are cracks around the plate mounting area where it meets the bottom of the nose next to the grill areas. It also has about a million coats of paint on it that are impossible to remove or smooth out.

The '82 is very unique. None of the other years are exactly the same. When we do find one in the you-pull-it-yard some "Knuckle-Head" has destroyed it getting to some other part or it was damaged before it was junked. We've found several Berlinetta's but they have three extra holes in the face and the never year Z-28's are entirely different and would require new signals etc. Derek and I prefer the '82's look over many of the others.

We're gonna check out a yard we have never been to before this Saturday (after we fail the emissions test... please see other post). Hopefully we'll find one. Got a nose for an '82? We may need one.

P.S. I hope our Z-28 looks as nice as your car when we are done!
Looks GREAT!

Sincerely,
Kurt
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Old 04-27-2005, 04:54 AM
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Originally posted by LT1guy
Hey guys, Redraif and I aren't too far from you (Jonesboro), and we'll be glad to help answer any questions you may have. I could probably help you out with some parts, and good (cheap) sources for nearly anything you'll need to rebuild your car. We both have a lot of experience with these cars and can help steer you in the right direction. We're both members of the ACFA (Atlanta Camaro-Firebird Assoc), which meets in Mcdonough
http://www.atlantacfa.com
Its a great group, with a growing # of third gen owners.
PM me if you have any questions, or we can help with anything!
LT1 Guy & Redraif,

What are the meeting days & times for the club. Derek and I would like to attend the next meeting. I work less than a mile from where I think you guys meet (although we live 33 miles away). The Chevy Dealer next to I-85 just off of GA Highway 155?? We'll check the web-site tonight........

We can't get the car over to the meet but we can bring some photos.

Maybe we can get someone from the club with a little more experience to come on over an take a good look at the Z-28. I've also exhausted my knowledge of the local J.Yards. The guys at the Roberts Road Pull-A-Part in Fayetteville, and the Pull-A-Part off of 1-285 and Moreland Ave. should know me and Derek by our first name by now!

We're gonna try a yard in Griffin, GA this Saturday we've never been to before. Johnson's Auto Salvage. Know anything about them? Worth the trip from Peachtree City?
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Old 04-27-2005, 05:02 AM
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Originally posted by stenseltizm
I have an 83 z-28 parts car that i'm only using suspension, tranny, and rearend.
Is the nose in good shape/available?
Do you know if the nose is the same as an '82?
I think it might be a little different?

If the nose is in good shape (relatively) and the same as an '82 we may be interested in giving up some cash for it.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
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Old 04-27-2005, 05:12 AM
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Originally posted by carlover01
Im a junior in high school...... I had to learn everything the hard way. ........ IS your son in any auto classes at school of any type? they are great to learn how things work.
Carlover1,

Derek informed me the other day that the Auto Shop teacher had quit or been fired or something. The remainder of the year the Auto Shop students will be in the library assigned other projects.

Auto shop will not be offered at his high school in the future and is officially cancelled.

It's a real shame. Although I want Derek to look forward to a College Degree, an Auto Shop class was a nice "FUN" class among the other classes on his schedule.

Sincerely,
Kurt
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Old 04-27-2005, 05:12 AM
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I'm glad you're back from Japan and am feeling better now. I might suggest that while you guys are working on rebuilding an engine, you might want to think of your exhaust system. There's many a choices to choose from in the headers department, the Cat department, the cat-back department... so many different types, so many different outcomes.

As a "quick fill in" on the "norm" here on TGO in exhaust...

3" catback is the most basic upgrade. Anything less than 3" is a waste. Any more and you better be packing some big HP numbers or you're just killing velocity. You've got so many choices there that it's almost painful. The most common are the Flowmaster cat-backs (40 and 80 series), the Hooker catback (my personal fav since I dont like loud allll the time), Mac (quiet and high flowing), SLP loudmouth (as close to no muffler as you can get, I actually think this is louder than unmuffled), then there's the Mufflex's that have Spintech mufflers which are basically like flowmasters, only without some of the noises that some cars get that have the flowmasters (some, not all cars get that raspy sound on downshift and such), and many many more to choose from!

3" (in and out) high flow Cat (Catco and Carsound are the most common) are widely used here, most of us prefer to keep our cats even though the car runs better without them... they quiet the car down some (not too much) and eliminate the annoying raspy and crackling sounds that some of us despise (and others love).

Headers... you'll need to look at the headers option chart in the exhaust board to decide which ones will suit your fancy the best with budget and horsepower in mind. The "best" ones that are shorties are the SLP (1 5/8 and 1 3/4 w/ AIR tubes for emissions systems, or w/o), the Hookers (2055 are 1 5/8" headers IIRC, with AIR tubes, and the 2460 are the same headers only without the AIR tubes).


That's about the jist of it. I'm not sure if you guys wanted long tube headers, or true dual exhaust... but a word of advice if you did... if you want ground clearance, or daily driveability out of it, I'd suggest against it. Our cars are already low enough to the ground, adding duals and/or longtubes will give you less then 4 inches of ground clearance on stock height.


Again, it is very nice to see this project coming along! I'd love to see that ground effect piece that Derek fixed up with fiberglass and such!
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Old 04-27-2005, 05:42 AM
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Originally posted by sellmanb
I'm glad you're back from Japan and am feeling better now. I might suggest that while you guys are working on rebuilding an engine, you might want to think of your exhaust system.

I'd love to see that ground effect piece that Derek fixed up with fiberglass and such!
Sellmanb,

I've been trying to figure out the exhaust and I remember (many years ago) my headers causing trouble for my starter. That's a problem I want to avoid this go-around. The exhaust from behind the cat (about 12" behind) is brand new and probably 3". It's a single and turns into "Fake" duals after the muffler. We may try to retain that portion of the exhaust as it is like new.

I already figured that a true dual would be a ground clearance problem as there are no provisions for a dual set-up in the underbody/floor pan. Real headers would seem to be a plumbing nightmare if we use a single cat and a possible heat problem for the starter. Much more investigation is needed on my part but it seems like the shorties are probably the way to go. I will have several weeks to decide and get them. I have at my disposal brand new Miller Welding equipment including a Stick Welders w/Self Contained Propane Power Plant, Mig Welder, A Tig Welder, A Plasma Cutter and what my mechanics refer to as "THE BLUE WRENCH KIT!" (i.e. Cutting Torches)

Engine Removal and Disassemble (2- Weekends [Derek & I]).
The machine shop estimates 2-weeks+ for the block (best price is a non-rush basis).
Engine painting and assembly (2-3 weekends [Derek & I]).
I'm going to take the tranny to Cottman's for a complete service (should be pretty quick.)
Cleaning, prep, and paint of the engine compartment (2-3 week ends [Derek & I])..
Engine w/headers & Tranny Install (1-Weekend [Derek & I]).
Upgrade and replacement of supporting devices/equipment (Ignition, Radiator, Fans, Cruise, A/C etc. 4-Weekends).

I'll post several photos of our recent work (or as many as the moderator will allow) this weekend.

Sincerely,
Kurt
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Old 04-27-2005, 05:55 AM
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Originally posted by DAVECS1
If you need wiring help Just holler. I would be glad to answer any questions...........I would personally go buy three or four spools of different color 18 Ga wire and some heat shrink splices. I think it will go along way in getting things right.

Good luck!
We may need a little advice in a month or two when we are involved in wiring. My electrician employees (see other post) think they can re-wire the whole car. They do great work on our equipment at the plant but we'll see how much they know about car wiring?

I know I've purchased thousands of dollars worth of Fluke devices, O.Scopes. meters and such they have been needing at the plant. Perhaps some of those meters and guages will be handy for the Z-28 also.

Thanks,
Kurt
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Old 04-27-2005, 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by kboehringer
I believe the previous owner must have removed (or disabled) the tank fuel pump as the 305 currently installed has a mechanical pump on the block. We're gonna pull the tank and look inside but I would prefer to stick with a mechanical if that will work with or current game plan? Will a mechanical work with a Holley (Probably a 650+)?
Absolutely, as long as the block has been machined for it (most likely has, if it's a mid-80's block), and the cam you use has a fuel pump lobe on it (most do).

Here's my recommendation for a pump https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=293649 . That will allow you to keep the return function, a valuable thing in hot climates.
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Old 04-27-2005, 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by kboehringer
LT1 Guy & Redraif,

What are the meeting days & times for the club. Derek and I would like to attend the next meeting. I work less than a mile from where I think you guys meet (although we live 33 miles away). The Chevy Dealer next to I-85 just off of GA Highway 155?? We'll check the web-site tonight........

We can't get the car over to the meet but we can bring some photos.

Maybe we can get someone from the club with a little more experience to come on over an take a good look at the Z-28. I've also exhausted my knowledge of the local J.Yards. The guys at the Roberts Road Pull-A-Part in Fayetteville, and the Pull-A-Part off of 1-285 and Moreland Ave. should know me and Derek by our first name by now!

We're gonna try a yard in Griffin, GA this Saturday we've never been to before. Johnson's Auto Salvage. Know anything about them? Worth the trip from Peachtree City?
Its the Pontiac-GMC dealer, right off 155 at 75...I think we're talking about the same place. The meetings are typically at 11AM on the second Saturday of each month, and we go to lots of events together. Redraif and I could probably come over and take a look at the car sometime...we probably have more experience with thirdgens than anyone else in the club.
I'm familiar with Johnson's...I used to go there a lot as a teenager, and still go there occasionally. There were several third gens there last time I checked, and whiel they're higher than Pull-A-Part they are more reasonable than most regular salvage yards. Its a little further for you, but you might want to check out the Pull-A-Part on the northside on Buford Highway.
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Old 04-27-2005, 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by kboehringer
Is the nose in good shape/available?
Do you know if the nose is the same as an '82?
I think it might be a little different?

If the nose is in good shape (relatively) and the same as an '82 we may be interested in giving up some cash for it.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
Wow, you've been busy posting since last time i've read this.

I'm not sure how good of shape it's in, i'm in Tennessee right now on business. I'll get a look at it this weekend, and I'll reply with the condition. Good luck with everything else.
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Old 04-28-2005, 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by sellmanb
I'd love to see that ground effect piece that Derek fixed up with fiberglass and such!
Sellmanb,

Here's the piece prior to primer..... We had found one (also gold)at the J.Yard that was also damaged but in different locations. Derek cut the front off our original and fibered the front from the J.Yard piece to it. Old piece in on the left. New complete piece on the right. He may have sanded a little too much off of the corner but no one will ever notice.

Kurt
Attached Thumbnails Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled-z28_dsidegeface.jpg  
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Old 04-28-2005, 06:44 PM
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That's a great job for a first timer! Bet he made dad proud
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Old 04-29-2005, 01:41 AM
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Local Machine Shop Prices - WOW Cheap!

We thought some of you might be interested in the price(s) We were quoted for the first session at the machine shop. I have used this shop before. About 3 years ago I blew the bottom end on my Honda "Preglude" (after 275K miles) and they did the machine work. I was very pleased with the service and the quality of the work.

Short block will be delivered basically disassembled and boxed.
Services to be performed...
1.) Remove freeze plugs & Cam Bearings, acid dip and inspect the block.
2.) Hone cylinder bores (If current pistons are good #4).
3.) Clean, Inspect, and polish crank (I believe this was referred to as magnaflux?).
4.) Clean and Inspect rod & pistons.
5.) Install standard cam bearings, Verified and Included in Price.
6.) Install new Freeze plugs, Plugs Included in price.
7.) Crank Bearings, Verified and Bearings Included in Price.
8.) Rod Bearings, Verified and Bearings Included in Price.
9.) Rings, Verified and Included in Price.
10.) Return unassembled (aside from freeze plugs and cam bears).
Total Cost $320 WOW!

If pistons are required the price goes up to about $520 Which would include: The Pistons, The boring, and the assembly of the pistons onto the rods.

Obviously, they could find a problem with something like a bad crank or rod(s) etc. But the prices sure seem fantastic to me! If they say something else is bad, I am certain they can be trusted to provide an honest assessment.

This is also only step #1 as Derek and I will need to address the heads next (step #2). I have not had a chance to get the numbers off the "new" heads and see what they are, or if they might be better than the current 305's heads which a few of you guys have already said could be used on a 350 (with bigger valves).

We know the engine ran when it was removed from the truck it was in. However the previous owner said it ran very well but smoked bad. That could have been caused by several different things but we're guessing it was a problem within the heads like valve seals or something. It could have been a combination of problems like bad rings and the valve seals.

Derek and I can paint and assemble the Short Block while we are trying to figure out the heads and the options.

How would these shop prices compare to your areas?

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
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Old 04-29-2005, 10:48 AM
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Magnaflux is brandname of an inspection procedure ( http://www.magnaflux.com/index.asp ). The part is placed in a magnetic field and exposed to fine iron particles. The magnetic field is interupted by flaws like cracks in the part, and the particles with collect around them making them visible. http://www.magnaflux.com/files/libra...structions.pdf shows how it is done.
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Old 04-29-2005, 10:49 AM
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Oh, the prices sound pretty good. Thorough cleaning is important before anything like the cam bearings go back in.
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Old 04-30-2005, 12:08 AM
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okay, not sure where you are at with this, but, Strip the motor to the heads, Pick/up a used 305 or 350 TPI intake with a wiring harness and computer (very easy to come by for little money), the car will be reliable, safe and fun! good luck!
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Old 04-30-2005, 03:54 AM
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I just spent the last hour of my life carefully reading this entire thread. I actually didn't want to turn away, as it reminded me so much of my father and myself - with one exception - my father is truely against me changing my 305 to a new 350 because he isn't sure my 87 camaro is worth the money/hassle. We would gladly just rebuild the 305 but we lack time (its my daily driver and I can't be without it for too long), space, and SPACE (space is a big issue for us). haha. We'll just have to see how things go...but yea, awsome thread, I enjoyed reading it and actually learned a lot along the way. This truely is a great place to have your questions and concerns assessed and situated. I've taken a few problems that I have had to this board, and most if not all of them have been successfully solved using information from this board. Inspirational, it is.
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Old 04-30-2005, 08:29 AM
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This truely is a great place.....

Originally posted by Dark Mavis
We would gladly just rebuild the 305 but we lack time (its my daily driver and I can't be without it for too long), space, and SPACE (space is a big issue for us).....
Fortunately Derek does not have an actual driver's license yet (permit only) and we can spend the time to do the car properly. He's learning to drive in his Mom's Caravan and My Accord.

He'll be the talk of the school next year when he get a chance to drive to school (ocassionally!) Once this car becomes a "Regular Driver" getting him to park it to make PROPER repairs will be very difficult. I may even get the chance to drive it to work once in a while. Derek's Mom is real excited about seeing the car progress as it reminds her of our dating days. When we were dating (22+ years ago) I was driving one of the sharpest (and fastest) cars on Naval Air Station Norfolk - 1978 Trans Am 6.6 . We had a great deal of fun with that car. Maybe we can convince Derek to let us take this one to the beach for a weekend.

We got such a good deal on the 350 we couldn't pass it up. Also most of the guys on this board recommended the 350. With a little work Derek could make this car a real screamer. Once he has a couple years real-world driving experience and some of his OWN money! With gas prices what they are and will likely be for the future this car will never be a "Daily Driver" unless he robs a bank to pay for the gas.

We are also extremely limited on SPACE. My workshop is not much more than a glorified walk-in closet. We have no garage and on ocassion we have resorted to a blue tarp nailed to the yard fence and draped over the car to avoid the Georgia sun and the rain.

Originally posted by Dark Mavis
This truely is a great place to have your questions and concerns assessed and situated. I've taken a few problems that I have had to this board, and most if not all of them have been successfully solved using information from this board. Inspirational, it is.
So many great guys have given us some good ideas and good information. I am sure we've saved quite a bit of time and money because of their help. Again, THANKS TO ALL!

Derek is a little "Timid" about posting to the board but he is reading every post and asking me questions. He also doesn't type too fast or too well.

Derek is one of our four children (K.Jr. 17, Derek 15, Sarah 12, Karl 10). He's not too interested in athletics as his brothers are. His sister is involved in music (Violin). We didn't have too much to do together. This car has changed all that!! We now spend much of our weekends together; Reading and positing to the board, going to J.Yards, Sanding, Painting, Drawing plans, Teaching about how cars work, Reading Chiltons or The Haynes Manual, Etc. This is great and I'm sure he'll remember it for many years to come.

Since we're expecting serious thunderstorms today most of our Z-28 plans will end up cancelled. We're gonna check out a few of the sponsors above and see if we can spend a few hundred dollars with them getting some of the stuff we need. We need to try to thank them for such a great web site they are providing.


Sincerely,
Kurt
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Old 04-30-2005, 08:24 PM
  #90  
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Time to dig into the "new" motor.

ALL,

The rain subsided and we were able to get a start on the 350.

I tried to run the numbers on the block and haven't been able to narrow down the exact item yet. Still searching the Nasty Z-28 and Mortec sites for more info.........

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
Attached Thumbnails Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled-z28_350_der-dad1.jpg  
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Old 04-30-2005, 10:05 PM
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Look like you have a long road ahead. The upside is that it should be lots of fun for both of you.
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Old 04-30-2005, 11:46 PM
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Originally posted by ShiftyCapone
Sounds like you have a run of the mill 305. None the less those heads are actually pretty decent and can be used on your project motor (including a 350).
ShiftyCapone & SellmanB,

Current 305 Heads - 14014416 / B28 3 GM 3
14014416...80-86...305..........1.84"/1.5" valves, 58cc chambers

Recently Aquired 350 Heads - 39989 3 / G73 GM35
3998993....72-73...307/350......75cc chambers

Which set of heads should I be looking to invest time and money into? I can get the machine shop to cut in the bigger valves on the 305's original heads as "sellmanb" suggested if those heads are a better choice.

Although I have not yet pulled either set of heads off of the blocks, neither set shows any signs of abnormal wear at first glance.

Regardless which set is selected, they will be professionally cleaned, inspected, new springs, guides checked, seals etc, etc.

The Block ID and Casting numbers tell us the engine was a 350 4-Barrel from a 1974 Chevy Truck. We'll have to pull the pan to see if we have 4-Bolt mains.

Thanks in advance,
Kurt & Derek
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Old 04-30-2005, 11:56 PM
  #93  
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Originally posted by jojo22
Look like you have a long road ahead. The upside is that it should be lots of fun for both of you.
The engine sat inside a barn for a couple years before we got it.

Got more parts than we thought we were getting, didn't need the TH350 or the other accessories..... But for $50 we won't complain.

Kurt & Derek
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Old 05-01-2005, 12:26 PM
  #94  
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sell all the stuff ya dont use :-) if you can sell the transmission for 50 bucks, then you can pretty much say you got the engine for free :-D
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Old 05-01-2005, 06:38 PM
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Got lucky! 4-Bolt Mains! :)

We got lucky as the 350 block has 4-bolt mains.

Speedingpenguin,

Too Late. We took a pile of stuff (including the TH350) to the dump today. We have no room inside, and the community would have "fits" if this stuff was outside. The back of the Z-28 is our parts storage area, at the moment and it's full.

Gettin' ready for the machine shop!
Attached Thumbnails Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled-z28_4boltsmall.jpg  
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Old 05-01-2005, 08:36 PM
  #96  
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Tigard, Oregon
Posts: 1,840
Car: '86 Berlinetta
Engine: 350
Transmission: 700R4
Originally posted by kboehringer
ShiftyCapone & SellmanB,

Current 305 Heads - 14014416 / B28 3 GM 3
14014416...80-86...305..........1.84"/1.5" valves, 58cc chambers

Recently Aquired 350 Heads - 39989 3 / G73 GM35
3998993....72-73...307/350......75cc chambers

Which set of heads should I be looking to invest time and money into? I can get the machine shop to cut in the bigger valves on the 305's original heads as "sellmanb" suggested if those heads are a better choice.

Although I have not yet pulled either set of heads off of the blocks, neither set shows any signs of abnormal wear at first glance.

Regardless which set is selected, they will be professionally cleaned, inspected, new springs, guides checked, seals etc, etc.

The Block ID and Casting numbers tell us the engine was a 350 4-Barrel from a 1974 Chevy Truck. We'll have to pull the pan to see if we have 4-Bolt mains.

Thanks in advance,
Kurt & Derek

The 14014416 heads are probably your best choice, they seem to be a favorite around here to spruce up. They do very well to a little home porting, and I strongly suggest you two do this. It's as close to free horsepower as you can get Plus it's a great skill to have, I know that I do small porting jobs for my friends constantly just because I have the tools and learned the basics from this site. I will be porting my own 416 casting heads here in the not so distant future as well.

The good thing about the 416 casting heads is that they are 58cc, this way you can have a higher compression ratio without having to shave the heads any (a penny saved is a penny earned).

Your 4 bolt block will be a nice and reliable starting point. I doubt you'll have horsepower or torque that would be even close to the 2 bolt range, but the 4 bolt just guarantees safeties there. Overkill is better than winging it any day of the week


Looks like you guys have been busy, makes me feel bad for only putting my fuel pump on yesterday
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Old 05-01-2005, 09:59 PM
  #97  
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: MA
Posts: 955
Car: 1981 Chevy Malibu, 1987 Formula 350
Engine: 229 V6, L98 TPI 350
Transmission: TH350, 700R4
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt ???, 9 bolt 3.27 posi
Re: Got lucky! 4-Bolt Mains! :)

Originally posted by kboehringer
The back of the Z-28 is our parts storage area, at the moment and it's full.
oh, i know what THATS like for sure, LOL
I've got pics somewhere of the back of my firebird LITERALLY full of stuff.....
i'll have to dig it out, its a FUNNY pic


Right now the firebird is STILL coverd with stuff....so dont feel bad about storing parts for your car in the car itself....haha
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Old 05-01-2005, 10:37 PM
  #98  
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 668
Car: 1982 - Z28
Engine: 350 / CCC Q-Jet
Transmission: THM-700R4
Axle/Gears: 10 Bolt - 3.73
storing parts for your car in the car....

Originally posted by speedingpenguin
oh, i know what THATS like for sure......
Right now the firebird is STILL coverd with stuff....so dont feel bad about storing parts for your car in the car itself....haha
Speedingpenguin,

Fortunately, you have a garage! Our new 350 block is still in the trailer as it seemed safer there than on the dirt or concrete. The new nose and other body parts are getting repaired on the picnic table (can never used used for any food again).

We see you are like we are....... Several different projects at one time. We see a new water pump and dip stick. Looks like the dash pad is out for some interior work also.

If that is a current photo.....What's up with the power plant? Who wrote "Firebird" in the dust on the window?

The following picture is Derek in our "Body Parts Prep Area" with a new "Red" nose for his "Gold" car.
(P.S. He's not being disrespectful just being a CLOWN)
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Old 05-01-2005, 10:46 PM
  #99  
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Location: Tigard, Oregon
Posts: 1,840
Car: '86 Berlinetta
Engine: 350
Transmission: 700R4
looks like he's just trying to show what a camaro nose looks like on a person

Nice front end you got there... perhaps I forgot it... but what's wrong with the one that's on the car currently that you had to buy a new one?
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Old 05-02-2005, 01:53 AM
  #100  
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 668
Car: 1982 - Z28
Engine: 350 / CCC Q-Jet
Transmission: THM-700R4
Axle/Gears: 10 Bolt - 3.73
Originally posted by sellmanb
looks like he's just trying to show what a camaro nose looks like on a person

Nice front end you got there... perhaps I forgot it... but what's wrong with the one that's on the car currently that you had to buy a new one?
Sellmanb,

The original nose has some major breaks/cracks all the way through on the bottom ledge on both sides of the bottom of the plate holder. There is a bit of a groove there that meets the vertical side, its cut completely through. The area that is supposed to hold the tiny little grills (no luck finding any of them yet) is full of holes drilled by the previous owner (probably for fog lamps). The original black painted areas were covered with several layers of gold. The main body upper portion has "recessed" significantly and there are "warps" in front of the head lamps as well. It was creased and "bondoed" on the drivers front corner. Finally, the paint is completely "crackled" all over it.

We Tried some sanding (made it worse).
We Tried a little Random Orbit Sanding (made it much much worse).
We tried a little paint stripper (made it much much much worse and warped it MORE).
TO ALL: DON'T EVER PUT STRIPPER ON THE NOSE PIECE


My buddy from work (that helped Derek with the fiberglass) knows a good bit about painting said that there is a special "flex-agent" that can be added to the paint for the plastic areas that could have prevented "some" of the cracking had it been added to the paint.

We thought that if we could find a good one in a J.Yard for a reasonable price we'd be investing a lot less time in the repair. We were lucky enough to find a nose in absolutely GREAT shape for only $60 (lower skirt included). It has only 1 original coat of paint and only minor nicks and dings. The biggest PITA was getting the original sticker/stripe off the bottom. Over an hour picking little pieces off!

I'm going to make some Stainless Steel Reinforcement Plates out of Sheet Stainless and build an additional angled support "shelf" behind the upper portion to provide a little more support than the factory provided. Hopefully I can keep the main portion flat and keep it from sagging.

Respectfully,
Kurt & Derek
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