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Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled

Old 05-02-2005, 09:10 AM
  #101  
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Another tip on the nose piece, I can offer, is do not put it on till absolutely last. I spent a couple years getting the body on my GTA just right. GM did not supply the greatest fitting parts. At any rate, as I was polishing up the nose of my GTA I noticed some waves across the top edge. Since my car hardly sees daylight, I wondered how they got there. Well as I was polishing up my engine compartment one day I noticed I had my knee inadvertently planted right on the nose. I did not even realize I had been doing this. I spent more money on the body than I did the original car and my own worst enemy is ME. So once you get that nose piece right, my advice would to be put it on last, and after you have put it on watch to make sure that when you thinking about how the hell your are going to get to that spark plug, that your not planting a knee to the old camaro!
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Old 05-02-2005, 06:21 PM
  #102  
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so much for jerry springer, i am going to tune in on this thread here everyday. keep up the good work and thumbs up for taking time with your son to tackle this project...he will never forget it.
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Old 05-02-2005, 06:52 PM
  #103  
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Originally posted by DAVECS1
......my own worst enemy is ME. .........watch to make sure that when you thinking about how the hell your are going to get to that spark plug, that your not planting a knee to the old camaro!
DavesCS1,

Thanks for the reply. I can't tell you how many times I allowed the rivets or top button on my jeans to put a nasty scratch in my fender before I learned!!!

I use to keep a set of those rubberized fender covers in my TransAm's trunk and pull them out EVERY TIME I leaned over the fender.

Use to be that every auto parts store sold them cheap. Their name was plastered on them, but who cared? They were invaluable.

I haven't seen a set of fender covers on an auto parts shelf in years. I haven't looked online but somebody must have 'em. Once the Z-28 gets a good coat of paint we're gonna have to find some.

Sincerely,
Kurt
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:41 PM
  #104  
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Summit has fender covers. Might be a good idea to pick up a set now. Probably help teach Derik the importance of them. He'll pull them out as second nature by the time your ready for paint. Then he won't have to learn the hard way like you.

just my
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:05 PM
  #105  
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Well I posted and it disappeared so here is the short version.

1. I use the largest softest beach towels I can find, because I have found the fender covers can leave fine scratches in a thick layer of clear coat.

2. I know it is common sense to keep weight off of the nose, but I did not do it and if you look closely at the nose on my car you can see were the nose has been stressed at the upper fastners causing a slight wave at the top.

3. If you can afford it, an epoxy coat before primer does wonders in helping to get the body glass smooth.
Attached Thumbnails Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled-side-shot2.jpg  

Last edited by DAVECS1; 05-03-2005 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:08 PM
  #106  
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One last thing. Metallic paint looks great in the sun, but you might is well right off trying to repair any minor damage. It is next to impossible to match. I an thinking about adding black flames to the front when I redo the nose, so I do not have to match.
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Old 05-03-2005, 12:38 AM
  #107  
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this is a great thread, its brought back a ton of memories of my dad & me doing things such as replacing the ball joints, rod bearings, points & adjusting the valves on his old 57 HEMI Desoto along with all the other things he taught me along the way. im sure Derek will remember this for the rest of his life.

i didn't see it mentioned, but the torque convertor clutch on a 700 is/was controlled by the ECM, but there is a work around for it.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...&highlight=TCC

or, if you can't find the switch locally, the switch is alittle better than 3 quarters the way down the page here,

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/highperf700r4.htm

having the TCC to where it will lockup under cruise would really help out on the gas mileage.



kind of sounds like if he does allow you & your wife to use it for a weekend trip to the beach, he may end up with another little brother or sister
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:09 AM
  #108  
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Originally posted by DENN_SHAH
having the TCC to where it will lockup under cruise would really help out on the gas mileage.
Reports vary, but a non-functioning TCC lock-up should only be done if the TC and tranny have been modified to eliminate it. Apparently, if not modified and not functional, excessive heat is built up and the 3-4 clutch pack will be hurt. I didn't believe the stories, now have no 2-3 shift at WOT - because of 3-4 clutch pack wear, they say.

Regardless, having a functional TCC lock-up is a very nice feature that allows you to have healthy stall for that good launch w/o excessive compromise on cruise quality.
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Old 05-03-2005, 03:50 PM
  #109  
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Originally posted by DENN_SHAH
kind of sounds like if he does allow you & your wife to use it for a weekend trip to the beach, he may end up with another little brother or sister
We'd certainly return with a smile!
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Old 05-03-2005, 04:12 PM
  #110  
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Dipstick Location and Heads?

All,

The 350 (1974) block has the dipstick on the Driver Side, the current 305 (1983) has the dipstick on the Passenger side.

No big deal either side should have plenty of clearance for a lousy dipstick. The tubing bender might need some action but no problem there.

However, the old 350 block has the dipstick mounting in the top of the block's Driver's Side between Cyl's #5 & #7 (just in front of the second bolt from the rear). A rather large round indentation was provided in the original 350 heads (39989-3) to accomodate the dip stick.

We want to use the 305's heads (14014416) and there appears to be a very SMALL indentation in the same location. Unfortunately, the 305 heads are still installed in the vehicle and they are a bugger to see.

Has anyone dealt with this. Is the indentation on the 305 enough to accomodate the dipstick?

I have a couple photos that may be useful but I cannot access them from work. I'll have to post them later.

Sincerely,
Kurt
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Old 05-03-2005, 04:41 PM
  #111  
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I haven't personally, but from people who have on the Board, concensus is headers makes it a non-issue. If using manifolds, you'll either have to do some serious bending of the tube or use a flexible like Lokar.
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Old 05-03-2005, 07:11 PM
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Like Five7 said... headers will eliminate this problem. Since you plan to get headers before you fire up the new motor anyways (right?) this shouldnt be a problem for y'all!
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Old 05-03-2005, 09:05 PM
  #113  
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Originally posted by sellmanb
Like Five7 said... headers will eliminate this problem. Since you plan to get headers before you fire up the new motor anyways (right?) this shouldnt be a problem for y'all!
Sellmanb & Five7,

I don't think I described the potential problem properly. I have attached a photo that will hopefully explain. The 350 Block has an "Internal" Dip Stick tube that requires a very short tube extension that inserts at the top of the block next to the base of the Head. A provision has been made in the "Original" 350 heads to accomodate the tube.

However, we wanted to use the 305 heads as a couple guys had suggested they would be better for a variety of reasons.

I cannot tell if there will be enough clearance to accomodate the 350's dip tube set-up aside the 305's heads. An indentation does exist on the 305 head but it may be a inadequate.

Originally posted by kboehringer
No big deal either side should have plenty of clearance for a lousy dipstick. The tubing bender might need some action but no problem there.
We will be using a set of the "shortie" headers and modifying the dip stick tube with a little twist or bend to avoid a problem with the brake system or another item will be a simple task.

However, if the 305 heads cannot clear the tube we're stuck with the original 350 heads regardless!

I think we're gonna be ok with the "305" Heads as the "350" block is actually a little wider (or protruding) in that area and the head will only need to accomodate a small portion of the tube. The little indent on the "305" heads should suffice.......


I hope the photo helps......

Respectfully,
Kurt Boehringer
Attached Thumbnails Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled-z28_dipcompare1a.jpg  

Last edited by kboehringer; 05-03-2005 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 05-03-2005, 09:29 PM
  #114  
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Originally posted by DENN_SHAH
i didn't see it mentioned, but the torque convertor clutch on a 700 is/was controlled by the ECM, but there is a work around for it.
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...&highlight=TCC
DENN_SHAH,

I read the post you indicated. I didn't fully understand some of it but as I've never really had a 100% understanding of Automatic Trannys (I prefer a Clutch 1,000,000%). I think I better read the post again, and again, and again. 'Cause it looks like I got more stuff to deal with in the Tranny area when Derek and I get ready to put this thing on the road.

Sincerely,
Kurt
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Old 05-03-2005, 10:07 PM
  #115  
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Orginally posted by kboehringer
I didn't fully understand some of it but as I've never really had a 100% understanding of Automatic Trannys (I prefer a Clutch 1,000,000%)
Since you guys are already tearing the car down so far, why not swap in a built T5 (the 305 5 speed) or a T56 (4th gen 6 speed)? A moderately built T5 should be able to hold up to your engine for the time being. If you wanted to, you could buy an aftermarket T5 that's significantly stronger than it's GM counter part. I don't remember who makes them, but I'm sure someone will chime in. A T56 wouldn't have any problems holding up, but would require some more effort installing.

As for the T56, here's some info:

The ultimate T56 guide (long read, might want to skip to another thread first)
http://www.skulte.com/T56.html

The T56 walkthrough
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=229205

What year T56 to grab
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=260450

Info on the trans (gear ratios, etc)
http://www.5speedtransmissions.com/6_speed.html

There's a lot more info out there and it does not take much effort to find it.
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Old 05-04-2005, 08:50 AM
  #116  
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I would be a little hesitant to use 305 heads on a 350. I have helped a couple guys do this, with limited success. You gain compression, but if you put the heads on without porting the quench area, you potentially have problems with detonation. From my experience the head has a smaller quench area that fits the 305 cylinder. This creates a ridge around the top of the cylinder that becomes a collecting area for hot spots, that can cause detonation. If you port the quench area you in decrease the compression. It will be a very fine line between gaining benifits from added compression and ridding your self of pre detonation. Just thought I would throw this out there.
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Old 05-04-2005, 09:09 AM
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Port the 305 heads and install 1.94" intake valves (and 1.60" exhaust if you really want to go nuts).

As for clearance for the oil dip stick, if you need to grind away the edge to get the needed indentation, grind away.

Last edited by five7kid; 05-04-2005 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 05-04-2005, 07:15 PM
  #118  
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Originally posted by Gummie
Since you guys are already tearing the car down so far, why not swap in a built T5 or a T56....
Gummie,

Thanks for the reply. I am 1,000,000% in favor of a Stick.... Derek however is a little intimidated by it.

He's been learning to drive in my Accord (5-Speed) and is a long long way from being comfortable with a stick. *** forbid anyone is ever within 10' behind us on a hill at a stop sign! Their bumper is DOOMED!

After reading some of the articles on the changeover repairing the T700 and making it work properly will be easier, less expensive, and Derek will be driving sooner.

However, if we see a 3rd gen V8 with a 5-speed attached to it or 4th gen V-8 with a 6-Speed attached to it in any J.Yards we visit........ I can guarantee we'll buy it and find some room to store it (even if it's in the attic or the entry foyer closet) so we're ready to move to a manual if we decide to do so someday.

Thanks,
Kurt
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Old 05-04-2005, 07:32 PM
  #119  
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Originally posted by DAVECS1
.......the head has a smaller quench area that fits the 305 cylinder. This creates a ridge around the top of the cylinder that becomes a collecting area for hot spots.......
DAVECS1,

I knew enough about the top end of the engine to wonder about the bore difference a little when we had been discussing this head swap online.

While I was at work today I showed one of my mechanics your note. He's a machinist with about 30+ years experience as a tool and die maker (non-CNC). He says he can bolt the heads up to our milling machine and cut the ridge(s) out with a fly-cutter. We can also mill quite a bit out of the edge of the head (to accomodate the dip stick) before we get anywhere near the head gasket.

Looks like we're puttin' those 305 heads on the 350!

Thanks all!!

Kurt
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Old 05-04-2005, 10:11 PM
  #120  
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Wow this is an awesome thread. Kurt it looks like you and your boy have a great project going there, and it even makes me wish that i had spent less time in high school working and chasing girls and more time doing a restoration on my camaro with my dad! I commend you on saving time to do something like this with your son, and I hope to someday be able to do the same with mine.

I actually may be doing something similar with my dad when i go home from school this summer.

Keep up the good work and keep us posted on the project.




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Old 05-04-2005, 11:03 PM
  #121  
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Originally posted by rocluvr0013
....makes me wish that i had spent less time in high school working and chasing girls and more time doing a restoration on my camaro with my dad!
Rocluvr0013,

I think "chasing girls" is as important as restoring cars.......maybe more important?

We are having fun, and spending a lot more time together since the project started.

Kurt
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Old 05-04-2005, 11:26 PM
  #122  
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1.) I milk this SLUG over to the inspection station on Saturday morning.... My buddy follows with a F-150 and a tow chain...
congrats, you've figured out how i pass emissions out here in Lawrenceville, and why i don't worry about it every year.... my car doesn't pass with or without cats, because my motor is too hopped up for the sniffer. and thank *** for rolling exemptions........ my 82 T/A is off the radar the same time your camaro is.

this is a great thing you two are doing. my dad got a 72 mgb to work on with me. i was gung-ho about it, even though i wasn't thrilled about the car. I pulled the motor, stripped a lot of interior, and got it ready for paint..... all without my dad ever helping or lifting a finger. it was really disheartening. I'm glad you and your son tackled it together. I wound up getting my t/a to **** my dad off.... now that i'm building a 383 chevy and a 468 pontiac, he's livid. mission accomplished..... AND my car is a lot of fun to drive. (at least when the motor is in it.) good luck!

-Josh
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Old 05-04-2005, 11:32 PM
  #123  
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That sounds like a great plan, with the heads. I would take it easy on the material that is taken out of each chamber. I am not sure what types of tools you have, but you and your son could probably tackle this. I would completely disassemble the 350 block and clean the cylinder bores out good. Then I would loosely bolt the 305 heads to the block, and spray some of that blue machinest marking dye from the bottom of the cylinders up at the head. The I would take an air grinder and LIGHTLY soften the edges. I would then sand the work area smooth and hit it with some course polishing compound and a buff mounted on a drill. This would probably help you retain compression, and if by chance you or your son get crazy with the grinder, just buy a thin head gasket.
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Old 05-06-2005, 04:37 PM
  #124  
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Originally posted by Gummie
Since you guys are already tearing the car down so far, why not swap in a built T5 (the 305 5 speed) or a T56 (4th gen 6 speed)? A moderately built T5 should be able to hold up to your engine for the time being. If you wanted to, you could buy an aftermarket T5 that's significantly stronger than it's GM counter part. I don't remember who makes them, but I'm sure someone will chime in. A T56 wouldn't have any problems holding up, but would require some more effort installing.

As for the T56, here's some info:

The ultimate T56 guide (long read, might want to skip to another thread first)
http://www.skulte.com/T56.html

The T56 walkthrough
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=229205

What year T56 to grab
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=260450

Info on the trans (gear ratios, etc)
http://www.5speedtransmissions.com/6_speed.html

There's a lot more info out there and it does not take much effort to find it.
Spohn carries them put the price is hefty.
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Old 05-08-2005, 12:22 AM
  #125  
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Rip and Tear Begins Later TODAY!

Third Gen Friends,

The road is clear for rip and tear beginning tomorrow morning!!

Last evening Derek bead-blasted the 350 heads (just in case we might need them later they'll be cleaned up and ready for repair). We orderd a bunch of parts, Oil Pan, Gaskets, Oil Pump, Chain & Sprockets, and a few "BLING" items.

We visited the J.Yard early this morning and found an IROC 305 w/TBI. We could get the intake and TB for $60 with most of the items needed to use TBI if we were to go that route. However the wiring is hacked like ours (why do the dummies always hack the wires????????) and the computer was gone. We were about to pull the manifold and I though it looked a little funny. Like maybe the intake had a bit of an unusual shape. We're gonna take some photos and compare onsite before we spend the time pulling it off. We're still not 100% on the Intake/Carb/TBI system. We'll do some searches tomorrow eve to get more info.

Promised mom we'd tackle some House Projects next weekend Besides, we've broke our month's budget today on the parts we ordered and inner door panels we grabbed off the IROC. So tomorrow is our only real opportuity for two weeks.

Expect photos of some serious Grease Monkeys tomorrow eve.

Thanks guys,
Kurt & Derek
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Old 05-08-2005, 09:58 AM
  #126  
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What's Trash? What's NOT?

Third Gen Friends (way too many to name you all),

We've started off the day quickly on the rip and pull operation. Rather than asking 100 times "should we keep this" or "should we trash that". Like.........

The Harmonic Balancer on the 350 looks like crap, the 350 flex plate also has slighlty elongated holes..... etc. etc.

What parts can absolutely NOT (or should not) be transferred from the 305 to the 350?

We have very limited storage area. If you guys could tell us which items cannot be used with the 350 we can avoid cleaning and storing JUNK we'll never have a use for. Obviously Pistons are junk. Rods? Crank should be Trash? Timing Cover? Etc. Etc. Etc.

Thanks you guys,
Kurt and Derek
Today's Georgia Grease Monkeys!!
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Old 05-08-2005, 08:39 PM
  #127  
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Everything external should swap, including starter and flexplate. The things I know that won't are the pistons, but there may be more. Most everything from the 305 should work on the 350. They are the same externally (same size block, etc.), so it's just some internal differences here and there.
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Old 05-08-2005, 09:39 PM
  #128  
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If you go with the TBI, I have a combo that I have put into two cars already that seems to put a smile on everybodies face. I would be happy to walk you through putting this combo together, and I feel confident in saying it is a proven.

If I have read right, you guys are planning on using a flat tappet cam. There is a marine grind from Comp thatworks well with a mild valve train (read inexpensive) and offers great throttle response and power as well as tolerance for tuning.

I think the only difference will be your heads. These two combos I have spoken of both used cleaned up iron L98 heads.

This combo works well with the stock tune for a 90 chevy truck, and if your interested, I have made some successful changes to the truck chip to extract better driveability and power.
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Old 05-08-2005, 10:18 PM
  #129  
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Sorry guys, This is gonna be a long one!!

Originally posted by DAVECS1
If you go with the TBI, I have a combo that I have put into two cars already that seems to put a smile on everybodies face. I would be happy to walk you through putting this combo together, and I feel confident in saying it is a proven...........
Dave,
Everything in your post is interesting to us!! And WE look forward to the walk through.

We thought we had but now realize that we haven't really got a clue what we're doing on the top end. "I" really wanted to go "STONE BASIC" no computer, minimal wires, basic carb.

However, now we find that.
1.) The tranny (T-700) needs the computer to Lock-Up or we have to do a strange work-around.
2.) I don't think vacuum-advance is the best choice of dist. so that will need to be changed again "We need the computer".
3.) Gas mileage is gonna stink on "Stone Basic".
4.) Derek will understand basic engine mechanics but should get a little more MODERN knowledge.

No matter which choice we need the following:
Wiring Harness.
Computer Controlled (CC) Distributor.
Proper Computer.
Carb/TB/Complete TP Unit.


1.) CC 5.7 with a CC carb.
PROBLEM: a.) Finding a 5.7 Carb with the computer! b.) EXPENSIVE?
2.) CC 5.7 with a TB. Found a couple VERY CHEAP. entire swap (J.Yard Parts) probably less than $200. On Saturday we could have had almost everything for $60. But NO Computer & wiring HACKED.
3.) CC 5.7 with a TPI. I don't know enough yet to accept or dismiss the idea.

We're leaning toward #2 because of price and local availability of J.Yard parts. We haven't even seen one a TPI in a Camaro yet (Live or in a J.Yard). Although we have seen photos.

We're studying the other boards to get more info. We're may have to install the new motor (still SEVERAL weeks away) without an intake.

Respectfully,
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Old 05-08-2005, 10:19 PM
  #130  
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Car: 1990 Firebird
Engine: 350 tbi
Transmission: 700R4
DAVECS1: I'd be interested in learning what that combo is as well, would it work on an LO5?

Kurt and Derek: I just have to say again that this is a great thread . I don't suppose anyone has mentioned an aluminum (sp?) drive shaft? I don't have one yet but its supposed to be a nice little improvement.
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Old 05-08-2005, 10:53 PM
  #131  
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Car: 1982 - Z28
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Weekend Update!

ThirdGen Friends,

For those of you who have been following our little 305 to 350 saga.....

We accomplished a great deal this weekend.
1.) The 350 Block is completely apart and ready for the Machine Shop. Block, Crank, Rods & Pistons, (NO Heads Yet) all boxed up and will be delivered on Tuesday (Mom's got the day off and we're making her take it to the machine shop). Piston Skirts & Cyl. Walls show some wear and Rod Bearings #2 & #7 GOT HOT. Hopefully the crank can be polished and is OK.
2.) Z-28 got an Emissions Test.
3.) Derek bead blasted the 350's old heads & V.Covs. He painted with a little primer to protect from rust and put a coat of paint on the old V/C's. Just in case we ever need them they won't take up much space (See pic bottom left)
3.) Derek Installed the IROC door panels. Minor Repairs on the back side with a little contact cement. They look like new and only $40 Pair. (See pic top left)
4.) Derek removed the old nose. We're preparing the "New RED Nose" for install. We'll delay the re-install until the new motor has cleared the front end and is bolted up. We'd hate to damage it with the hoist or the motor.
5.) Tore out the top of the 305 and removed all brackets, alt, A/C, Pump(s), Dist., Carb., Radiator Etc. Etc. TOP END IS CLEAR AND READY FOR THE PULL.

We found some more craziness from the nut that owned this car previously. We couldn't quite figure out why the Alt Bracket looked wierd until we noticed the previous owned had HACKED OFF half of the bracket (See pic top right)

It is also amazing how many folks think that more is better with RTV sealer! Even with a 1/2 a tube of GOO the thing was STILL LEAKING!!! If one doesn't install the gasket and intake properly the thing is gonna leak so matter how much goo you put on it!!! Tthe entire engine and the lifter area was full of Orange RTV!!

All-in-all we had a great weekend! Even our youngest son "Karl" got in on the act handing tools and pretending to drive. Uh-Oh I'm gonna have to build another one of these in 5-years!

We'll be responding to e-mail etc. but we promised Mom some of the Honey-Do list for next weekend. Although I think we'll end up slippin' in a few hours!

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
Attached Thumbnails Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled-z28_mixed.jpg  
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Old 05-08-2005, 11:02 PM
  #132  
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Transmission: 700R4
Originally posted by kboehringer
Sorry guys, This is gonna be a long one!!



Dave,
Everything in your post is interesting to us!! And WE look forward to the walk through.

We thought we had but now realize that we haven't really got a clue what we're doing on the top end. "I" really wanted to go "STONE BASIC" no computer, minimal wires, basic carb.

However, now we find that.
1.) The tranny (T-700) needs the computer to Lock-Up or we have to do a strange work-around.
2.) I don't think vacuum-advance is the best choice of dist. so that will need to be changed again "We need the computer".
3.) Gas mileage is gonna stink on "Stone Basic".
4.) Derek will understand basic engine mechanics but should get a little more MODERN knowledge.

No matter which choice we need the following:
Wiring Harness.
Computer Controlled (CC) Distributor.
Proper Computer.
Carb/TB/Complete TP Unit.


1.) CC 5.7 with a CC carb.
PROBLEM: a.) Finding a 5.7 Carb with the computer! b.) EXPENSIVE?
2.) CC 5.7 with a TB. Found a couple VERY CHEAP. entire swap (J.Yard Parts) probably less than $200. On Saturday we could have had almost everything for $60. But NO Computer & wiring HACKED.
3.) CC 5.7 with a TPI. I don't know enough yet to accept or dismiss the idea.

We're leaning toward #2 because of price and local availability of J.Yard parts. We haven't even seen one a TPI in a Camaro yet (Live or in a J.Yard). Although we have seen photos.

We're studying the other boards to get more info. We're may have to install the new motor (still SEVERAL weeks away) without an intake.

Respectfully,

Choice #1 is probably the easiest for you guys. Not only will you get to keep SOME of the "Stone Basics" (Carb), but you'll be keeping the computer as well. My setup uses a computer controlled carb from a LG4 (that's a CC Carb from a 305 motor). I havent done ANYTHING to it yet. You can easily grind off a restricter tab and it'll flow up to 795CFM on demand...stock they go up to 650 IIRC.

I am using the LG4 computer, though I HEAR that the L69 (High Output 305 carb motor) has a better timing advance.

I just got the motor running yesterday matter of fact. It's got the LG4 intake, carb, dizzy, all the connectors and such... it started right up (after I got the timing set lol) and shuts down right once I turn the key off (no dieseling)... I couldnt be happier.

So that just goes to show you that a computer controlled carb w/ wiring harness from an LG4 or L69 will work just fine. I wouldnt pay extra for an L69 setup though, because I'm pretty sure the wiring harness is the same, but the ECM is a little different, and the carb has better rods and hangers I believe, but those only cost like 8 dollars to change over, and you'll probably end up changing those whether you get the L69 or LG4 carb.

My vote is carb... lol. It's cheaper, and you wont have to burn chips or anything for every mod that you do... instead just rod and hanger it properly. It is self adjusting which is nice, but you can also teach him how to rebuild a carb which is a nice skill to have!

Plus, the LG4 outfit is cheeeap and a dime a dozen in our local junkyards atleast.
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Old 05-09-2005, 09:55 AM
  #133  
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The 305 damper should work on the 350. Just use the timing cover as well to make sure the timing tab lines up correctly. Of course, check this as you assemble, as you really don't know what the previous owner did there, either.

Flexplate w/elongated holes = recycle. Ditto with 350 damper. The alternator bracket is messed up more than just having a chunk chopped off - can't tell from the pic exactly what that is, but just get another one from the JY.

Silicone sealer or the rubber gasket should be used on the intake manifold, but not both. If the pic shows where it was when disassembled, the gasket slipped out of place - very common, and why we (and the factory) typically use just the silicone sealer these days.

Getting a non-computer controlled TH700 TCC lockup isn't that difficult. The lockup solenoid has 12 v going to it constantly (except when the brake is applied - the brake light switch also has the TCC power going through it), and the computer just completes the circuit by grounding it. There is a 4th gear pressure switch that tells the ECM the tranny is in 4th gear - it's a single pole normally open switch (make sure that's what type it is - some models were different). If you don't have a computer, you can reroute the wiring in the pan to use that switch to ground the TCC when in 4th gear - viola, lockup. Add a vacuum switch to cut the power when vacuum is low (i.e., you're getting on it or going up a steep hill), and you're done.

A non-CC q-jet, vacuum/mechanical advance distributor, and TH700 with functioning lockup would deliver decent fuel economy. That's assuming your local emissions inspection doesn't require you to have a chassis-year-model type induction.
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Old 05-09-2005, 11:53 PM
  #134  
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Originally posted by five7kid
..............The alternator bracket is messed up more than just having a chunk chopped off - can't tell from the pic exactly what that is, but just get another one from the JY.
Five7kid,

Thanks for the response. We realized (as we were pulling all the accessories) that ALL of the brackets had been modified in some fashion or another. Some with threaded nuts had been drilled through to allow passage of the wrong bolts, pieces were cut off and washers were used as shims everywhere. None of the belts lined up properly with any of the pulleys.

We assume that the guy didn't know how to put it all back on or mixed and matched brackets from the original Cross-fire engine with brackets from the '83 Firebird's 305 that now sits in it's place.

We found a great thread with tons of photos of the most fantastic looking carbed Camaros and F.Birds

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=183568

Hopefully we can learn something from what these guys have done. I'd love to find a newer set-up like a serpentine since we'll have to find all the proper (non-modified) brackets anyway why not?

Originally posted by five7kid
..............A non-CC q-jet, vacuum/mechanical advance distributor, and TH700 with functioning lockup would deliver decent fuel economy. That's assuming your local emissions inspection doesn't require you to have a chassis-year-model type induction.
The local emissions regulations are not a factor. The only thing that I believe they are "supposed to check" is the presence of a CAT and the "Smell" of the tailpipe. In one year, we can get an antique/collector plate and never get emissions tested again.

If we were to use the 305's intake, carb, and dist. we could make the thing run (probably fairly well). As I recall my '78 T/A carbed 400 was not that bad on gas. Gasoline was probably about 75 cents a gallon back then (maybe less). I know it had a huge tank. When I was 20 (+/-) I didn't care how much gas I put in it? Darn I'm OLD! I can actually remember filling up my snowmobile for about $2. Darn I'm OLD!

We seem to be flip-flopping back and forth everyday....... Today we seem to swaying toward a CC Carb Set-Up to keep a computer Tomorrow.... Who knows?

When push comes to shove and we have the motor (bottom end and heads) in the compartment It'll probably come down to what we can find (complete) and price.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
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Old 05-10-2005, 09:39 AM
  #135  
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Car: 91 GTA
Engine: 377ci
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: QP Ford 9" 3.70s
Hey its me again!

Front accessories can be a pain. I would hunt around ebay and the thirdgen classifieds for the 90-92 aluminum serpentine brackets. It makes installation quite easy as there are just two big aluminum pieces to keep track of. We picked up a set for my old man;s 77 vette for about 150 with everything but the AC compressor.

As far as that combo is concerned here are some of the basics.

1. Comp Cams PN 12-236-3
2. I have used 1.5 and 1.6 rocker arms, the 1.6 seem to have better throttle response.
3. One combo used L98 heads and the other Vortec heads. The power levels were about the same, but the Vortec did make more.
4. TRW-L2256FXX (XX stands for the bore size .030 etc.) The relifes on these pistons seem to work well with this cam profile and both sets of heads I have listed, and they will last forever.
5. 89-91 TBI Truck ECM, I forget the part number right now, but I will list it up here. I personally just cut it out of the truck with about 6-10 inch leads on the conectors, Then I terinate it with weatherpac or DT connectors and make a seperate engine harness.
6. All the sensorsors mounted on the engine ( I have a list if you need it) and the connectors with as much wire as you can get connected to them. (for the engine harness)
7. If you go the vortec route you will need to get the more expensive vortec TBI intake from summit or jegs, I have not found them anywere else. Otherwise Just grab the truck manifold and throttle body.

8. This web site has good stuff for a cheap price. I have not had one problem with any of there parts. I keep there website in my back pocket whn I need to save a little cash. dirttrackthunder.com

Hope this helps.
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:04 AM
  #136  
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Engine: undecided thinking 383 stroker
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Don't know if it would work but I'm trashing a v-6 with a serpintine setup. Off of a 91 bird. If there are any pullies, brackets, or other parts that would help you guys out there yours for the shiping and some more good posts. Keep up the good work let me know if there is any thing I can do to help you guys out.
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:59 PM
  #137  
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Engine: 350 / CCC Q-Jet
Transmission: THM-700R4
Axle/Gears: 10 Bolt - 3.73
V6 to V8 Accessory Mounts, etc.

Originally posted by jojo22
Don't know if it would work but I'm trashing a v-6 with a serpintine setup. Off of a 91 bird. If there are any pullies, brackets, or other parts that would help you guys out there yours for the shiping and some more good posts. Keep up the good work let me know if there is any thing I can do to help you guys out.
JOJO22,

Thanks for the offer..

We just purchased (five minutes ago) a copy of the "F-Body" CD from the sponsor (above). From the on-line samples provided on their web-site, it looks like the illustrations should make it relatively easy to determine if the brackets are the same for a V-8 & V-6. It should also help us put some of the other screwed up stuff back in the proper order.

We were procrastinating on buying one of those CD's for a while......wish we had done it sooner. Sure hope it's a good resource. Derek's Z-28 is sooooo screwed up that the Chilton's and the Haynes' manuals are basically worthless.

We'd like to take you up on the offer. Please don't "Trash" the motor for a few days until we can determine if we can make use of the mounts and such.

Thank you,
Kurt & Derek
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Old 05-10-2005, 11:21 PM
  #138  
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Originally posted by super_kev
Everything external should swap, including starter and flexplate. The things I know that won't are the pistons, but there may be more. Most everything from the 305 should work on the 350. They are the same externally (same size block, etc.), so it's just some internal differences here and there.
SuperKev,

We noticed some differences in a couple of the external parts.

The harmonic balancers are vastly different in size (the 350's is much larger and heavier).

The timing marks are also in different locations on the timing covers. We think that the timing marks are probably not actually different but the covers (and balancer marks) may have been manufactured differently to allow a different viewing angle for the two different applications.

The starters look identical (neither is GM original) but the 350's starter feels like it is a lot heavier.

For the moment, we're cleaning and marking all the parts for whatever motor they came from 305 or 350 and trying the keep anything that might be needed later...Just in case...

Thanks again,
Kurt & Derek

Last edited by kboehringer; 05-10-2005 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 05-10-2005, 11:39 PM
  #139  
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Car: '86 Berlinetta
Engine: 350
Transmission: 700R4
The harmonic balancers for both the 305 and 350 should be the same, or atleast be able to interchange between the two.

The starters shouldn't make a difference as long as the flexplate/flywheel is the correct amount of teeth. Also the flexplate/flywheel from 305 and 350 should be interchangeable assuming that the 305 was a 2 piece rear main seal.

I'd suggest (just because the previous owner was an obvious hack) that you get a new balancer, and a timing cover that goes with it... this is simply because the last thing that you need is a balancer that has a line for a specific timing cover, and a timing cover made for a chinesium balancer or something... and never get an accurate timing reading.


Other things that will/should interchange between a 305 and 350 are...

Heads
Crankshaft
Camshaft
Rockers
Valves
Rods
Intake
Transmission

Note: The crankshaft from a 305 is not balanced for a 350... but if you are getting new pistons and/or rods for the new engine anyways, you will need to have it balanced anyhow... so it wont matter... just as long as you arent putting a 1 piece rear main seal crank into a 2 piece rear main seal block (or vice versa).
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Old 05-11-2005, 12:02 AM
  #140  
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Axle/Gears: 10 Bolt - 3.73
Originally posted by sellmanb
............................Other things that will/should interchange between a 305 and 350 are...Heads, Crankshaft, Camshaft, Rockers, Valves, Rods, Intake, Transmission

Note: The crankshaft from a 305 is not balanced for a 350... but if you are getting new pistons and/or rods for the new engine anyways, you will need to have it balanced anyhow... so it wont matter... just as long as you arent putting a 1 piece rear main seal crank into a 2 piece rear main seal block (or vice versa).
Sellmanb,

We haven't gotten the 305 out yet and can't visually compare the internal parts.

Thanks for the info about the crank and rods. As I mentioned in a previous post, two of the 350's rod bearings apparently got hot based on the color of the caps and the condition of the crank in those locations. The damage was not too extensive, but I don't know if polishing will fix it. Glad to hear I can forward the 305's crank to the shop if necessary, and if it has the same seal configuration.

Unless their is some miracle cure lotion Oil-of-Olay (LOL) they can rub on old pistons to remove age lines (i.e. scoring) we'll be purchasing new pistons and getting a bore job.




Sincerely,
Kurt

(Derek went to bed...... some hot-rodder he is!)
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Old 05-11-2005, 09:03 AM
  #141  
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Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
Harmonic dampers came in many different sizes and arrangements over the years. I've seen a thin 6" on an early 350, and huge thick 8" thing on later years. However, the key is to match the damper and timing tab - that really isn't too hard, but something to be verified as you are assembling the engine.

As far as crankshafts, do all you can to save the 350 piece. Balancing a 305 crank to 350 parts is an expensive proposition, and shouldn't be pursued just because you can - it would be cheaper to buy a new 350 crank, actually. Most likely your 350 crank can be ground to the next undersize with no problem. Have ARP bolts put in the rods and have the rods resized. Not sure how much balancing would cost you, it was $125 for me, but do that if you can swing it. You have to have all the machining done and the new parts (rod bolts, bearings, pistons, pins, rings) available to have it balanced.

Oh, as far as serpentine parts: about the only thing I can imagine transferring from a V6 to a V8 is the tensioner pulley, and that probably isn't even the same thing. Get a V8 set-up (or 4.3l V6) from the JY.
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Old 05-12-2005, 11:36 PM
  #142  
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Been Busy.... Bead Blastin' & Painting

Third Gen Friends,

We've been busy the last couple days. The 305 has been stripped to the short block and is waiting for us to rip it out with the tranny. It'll be a while before we get the 350 short block back from the machine shop.

In the meantime......
Each day I take several parts to the plant and bead blast them clean of crud, and old paint. When I get home Derek gets a quick coat of primer on them to avoid any rust. We're pulling anything off the car than can be improved by blasting and re-painting (not just the engine parts). The pile of various engine parts, fender supports, etc. etc. (see photo) is only about 1/3 of the stuff we managed to get cleanup.

Derek's next chore is to look through his Car Carft & Hot Rod mags, and the other ares of the ThirdGen site to determine the engine color he wants to use. If he selects bright yellow again I'm going to exercise my VETO Authority!

Any suggestions? What is going to look good inside a GOLD car/engine compartment? Classic Red? We want something bright that will show how clean it is. Derek saw some paint called "VHT" advertised in his Car Craft Mag (May Pg.16) the stuff is supposed to hold up to 500 degree temp. Any Good?

We've got "Honey-Do" list items and several Little League Games to accomplish this weekend. We will probably NOT get a chance to work on the Z-28.....
UNLESS MOM IS NOT LOOKING!

See ya'll
Kurt
Attached Thumbnails Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled-z28_partspainta.jpg  
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Old 05-13-2005, 12:24 AM
  #143  
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Hey Guys, those parts look good blasted and primered. At any rate. I put a good amoun of money into my engine and decided that the VHT paint was good enough to use on it. I must say it has held up very well over the last 2 years. I would highly recommend it.
Attached Thumbnails Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled-engine-left.jpg  
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Old 05-13-2005, 08:51 AM
  #144  
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Engine color? Either black or car color would be my vote.

Chevy orange is "classic", but you aren't building a classic. Chevy blue says "smog era". "Yellow" says something we aren't allowed to say on this Board. Matching car color is difficult unless you paint both.

Yeah, go for black.
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Old 05-13-2005, 09:03 AM
  #145  
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I'd say go for black too, especially if the engine bay is gold. black and gold is good........ Black & Tan in better....... I'm getting thirsty.
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Old 05-14-2005, 09:20 AM
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If you have spray equipment, you could paint the engine with either automotive acrylic urethane single stage or base/clear....I have done both, with great results. Its more durable than anything out of a can, easy to clean, and you can get any color you want.
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Old 05-16-2005, 12:41 AM
  #147  
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Originally posted by LT1guy
If you have spray equipment, you could paint the engine with either automotive acrylic urethane single stage or base/clear....I have done both, with great results. Its more durable than anything out of a can, easy to clean, and you can get any color you want.
LT1guy,

We really don't have the ability to use REAL paint here at the house. We're kinda stuck with the cans for the engine....

However, somehow we're gonna have to figure out how to paint the engine bay with real paint before the 350 goes back inside the hole. I'll probably end up renting a portable compressor. I can borrow a portable Refrigerative Air Dryer and an In-line filter set-up to eliminate the mositure, I don't have access to a portable compressors.

DEREK decided on Black for the engine!!! THANK YOU to Dave CS1 for showing us a super sharp looking black engine!!! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! I didn't have to use my "Line Item VETO!

[I]For anyone interested[I] "Car Craft" May Issue (Cover Story) has some great pointers for improving a budget paint job. I noticed the mag on the cocktail table and asked Derek if he had a chance to read it..... Ya'll know the answer....NO(He likes the photos.... Doesn't read the articles!) I suggested he read the article and now he understands why he's been told to do certain things!

We've completed most of the Honey-Do list.... This Week and next weekend Z-28 all week!


Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek
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Old 05-16-2005, 09:54 AM
  #148  
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I just realized the picture of your primered parts shows very well the difference between dampers & front covers - the cover on the left has the "old" ~1:30 clocking timing tab, and the one on the right has the 12 o'clock timing tab.

FWIW, my son & I have been talking for weeks about getting our 350 shortblock assembled. Now he's up in Montana with my wife visiting Grandma, I'm home alone, and I "can't" work on it because this is his opportunity to get in on a build. Maybe I'll fiddle with the replacement tranny while they're gone.

Last edited by five7kid; 05-16-2005 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 05-16-2005, 10:42 PM
  #149  
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Location: Peoria, IL USA
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Car: 91 GTA
Engine: 377ci
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: QP Ford 9" 3.70s
Well thanks guys for the compliments. I went with a black and chrome theme. I even went as far as to order all my fittings either nickle plated or black anodized. I think it looks sharp and it is realitively inexpensive. Anything aluminum you can just grab and take a buffing wheel to it and it fits the scheme. My favorite part is any scratches or new parts can can be blasted with easy to match paint.
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Old 05-16-2005, 11:27 PM
  #150  
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Car: 1982 - Z28
Engine: 350 / CCC Q-Jet
Transmission: THM-700R4
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Originally posted by five7kid
I just realized the picture of your primered parts shows very well the difference between dampers & front covers - the cover on the left has the "old" ~1:30 clocking timing tab, and the one on the right has the 12 o'clock timing tab.
Fortunately we been making notes on all the differences we see. We wanted to purchase a chrome cover at the local parts store but it's OLD style (1:30). Unfortunatley, I'm not too pleased with the look of the rubber in the OLD DAMPER (very rear in pic) it's pretty rotted. We'll probably just paint the new style cover to save the $20, but the Chrome cover would have helped make the black engine pop a little. Maybe we'll fine a new style somewhere.

Originally posted by five7kid
FWIW, my son & I have been talking for weeks about getting our 350 shortblock assembled. Now he's up in Montana with my wife visiting Grandma, I'm home alone, and I "can't" work on it because this is his opportunity to get in on a build. Maybe I'll fiddle with the replacement tranny while they're gone.
I'm also getting pretty excited about putting the thing back together. It brings back some fond memories of my hot-ridding days. I have to keep stopping myself from working when Derek is unavailable and remind myself that this is supposed to be HIS car! I've been teaching him a great deal of information:

He now seems to have an understanding of how the basic engine works. (i.e., the air/gas explosion pushes the pistons, that effort turns the crank, which turns the timing set, that turns the cam that pushes the lifters & push rods that open the valves...........)

When we removed the rings from the old pistons (to prep for the machine shop) we spent a great deal of time discussing rings, why they are staggered, why there are holes in the pistons behind the oil rings. what they do etc. etc.

If there is one piece of advice I could give to anyone else working with their kid it is this.... Remember that it may have taken us adults several years to learn the fine details. I have found myself (on many ocassions) taking for granted knowledge that Derek does not posess. (remember the lesson I learned about shock removal in this post a couple month's ago?) Describe tools and parts in great detail to make sure we don't get the wrong tool or make sure he doesn't remove the wrong thing. Whenever possible touch (don't point at) the thing you want removed!

Try this one.... Describe a ring expander to a 15 year old your sending to the tool box to fetch it for you.
1.) He's never seen one before and doesn't really understand what it does.
2.) You haven't used it in years but you know you got one.
3.) Your not exactly sure what drawer it's in.
Isn't too easy is it??? unless you want him to make four trips

I'm trying to be patient and explain everything... and it is time consuming...... but if the student doesn't understand what the heck a thing is supposed to do, or how important it is all he'll ever know is how to take it apart.

five7kid,
Have some fun.... Wait for your son to return


Sincerely,
Kurt
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