Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled - Page 5 - Engine Swap - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

LT1guy · 05-23-2005, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyitlikustolit
are they good for nitrous?

Hypereutectic pistons are less resistant to detonation than even cast pistons, so I wouldn't use nitrous or any other power adder with them...hence the expressions you often hear at the track, "hyper pathetic", "hyper-u-cracked-it", etc. They are better in some respects than a cast piston, and superior for a naturally aspirated engine, but they are more brittle than cast and will not tolerate detonation for very long. If you think you might ever want to use a power adder, go forged. If not, they'll be fine.

flyitlikustolit · 05-23-2005, 11:48 AM

just wondering. I had thought about n2o, but had pretty much ruled it out and decided to go N/A 383 for now, just to drive the car and have a lot of fun. this just confirms it. thanks!

DAVECS1 · 05-23-2005, 11:58 AM

Actually they work good in boosted applications if you can keep the detenation to a min. They do not expand or contract as much as cast or forged pistons. There for they hold up well to the high heat conditions caused by forced induction.

firehawkslplus · 05-23-2005, 01:50 PM

IIRC the differance between a regular cast and hyper. is the percentage of silicon present regular castings only have 6-7 percent silicon content. The hypers have 14-18 percent this has the effect of making the piston harder and therefor stronger it also allowes runnig closer tolerances (piston to wall) than a forging "=" less piston slap, better ring seal and easier on the cylinder walls. All of this doesn't mean much on a race eng with regular tear downs; but on a street car expected to go 10's of thousands of miles. The down side to that hardness is makes them more brittle and likely to crack under detonation. In trems of price and stength fall in between forged and rebuilder castings.

Personal testimonial is I used them in an IT car that was later moved to more auto-X, track day for 5yrs never missed abeat. Retired when a 30 year old axel let go at PCA event in Corpus Christi lucky for me it was slow R. hander. Spun it , plowed the field, walked away. Got it back to gether and gave it away to a fellow H-body. That eng still running to day.

LT1guy · 05-23-2005, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DAVECS1
Actually they work good in boosted applications if you can keep the detenation to a min. They do not expand or contract as much as cast or forged pistons. There for they hold up well to the high heat conditions caused by forced induction.

In a low boost application with perfect tuning, they're fine...but if you're building a motor with the intent of using a supercharger, turbo, nitrous etc forged pistons are the way to go. Actually, cast pistons are better in these applications than Hyper, since they aren't as hard (brittle).

kboehringer · 05-23-2005, 06:19 PM

TGO Guys,

I talked to the machine shop on the phone today and the price quoted actually included "Hypers" (as the machinist and others on this board have referred to them).

The price was $13.00 each. I didn't ask how much for the cast or the forged. Since we are not looking at; boost, N20 or other similar add-ons, we'll take your recommendations and use the Hypers.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek.

kboehringer · 05-24-2005, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sellmanb
.....If it has little "scoops" on the end of the ground effects then it's a 91-92 ground effects. If it's not then it's more than likely from a 90 like Derek thought.

It does not have the little scoops on the side so Derek must have been correct with the year ('90).

Quote:

Originally posted by sellmanb
Also, I'm not completely sure about the bumper support fitting that year nose... you may want to try a test fit.

The headlamp reinforcement is an identical match. And although we have not done a Test Fit of the '90 nose the F-Body CD indicates that the bumper's reinforcement is the same part (#16502633). We've decided to paint it gold when the car get's painted..... Just in case. We can always remove it from Derek's wall and bolt it on...Let's just hope we don't have to!

We're going to be spending the remainder of the week and the long weekend cleaning the engine bay and the underside of the car. It's a real mess under there! There is also some rocker panel damage on the passenger side that needs repair.

We have not been able to find the correct mounting for the TH700 in any of the J.Yards. They must be pretty popular as several cars still had tranny's but no mounts. We'll keep looking this weekend. If we don't have any luck this weekend we'll buy the aftermarket item that one of the guys suggested in a previous post.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

DAVECS1 · 05-24-2005, 11:55 PM

If you mean a 700r4, you are in luck I just happen to have an extra cross member and possibly a torque arm mount.

five7kid · 05-25-2005, 02:37 PM

Don't toss your stock crossmember out. List it on the classifieds on this board. People are looking for them all the time for putting TH350's in their 3rd gens.

wgripp · 05-25-2005, 10:12 PM

My highschool used to have an entire wing dedicated to shop classes. We had small engines, auto shop, wood/metal shop, household wiring, drafting, etc. Then the computer age came along, and they moved all those classes to votech (meaning that anyone who wanted to go to college couldn't learn any practical skills). There used to be 6 instuctors who worked down there. I was fortunate to take a couple classes (shop and drafting) with the last remaining teacher. He retired after I graduated, and now my hs doesn't even offer shop. It's pathetic. Home economics is still around. The politcally correct school system wants to neuter our kids, and make them pay thru the nose for auto repair.

kboehringer · 05-25-2005, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by five7kid
Don't toss your stock crossmember out. List it on the classifieds on this board. People are looking for them all the time for putting TH350's in their 3rd gens.

Five7Kid,

Our cross member is anything but "STOCK". As with everything else on this car it's been modified/screwed up. I seriously doubt anyone would want this thing to support their tranny.

All of my mechanics at work are all "Exceptional" welders, Mig, Tig, Stick, Braze, Stainless, Aluminum...... They can weld anything.....When they saw this welding they couldn't stop laughing (mostly I think at me for buying this car)!

Sincerely,
Kurt

kboehringer · 05-25-2005, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DAVECS1
If you mean a 700r4, you are in luck I just happen to have an extra cross member and possibly a torque arm mount.

DaveCS1

Great News, thanks! We can avoid a day on the J.Yard circuit. We know what happens when "I" go to the J.Yard. LOL LOL LOL

Using the information we found on Nasty28.com, a 700R4 is the only thing this tranny can be. We could not numbers on it.

We think we have the proper torque arm mount. We will verify with the F-Body CD. The torque arm has also been modified (those seem to be plentiful in the local J.Yards) We assume the 700 is longer as it seems that the torque arm was cut an welded back together (also very poor welding). We think it was probably shortened. My mechanics are going to verify the weld strength and either reinforce/replace the welds or cut another J.Yard torque arm down and repair it properly.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

kboehringer · 05-25-2005, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wgripp
........they moved all those classes to votech (meaning that anyone who wanted to go to college couldn't learn any practical skills). ...................

wgripp,

It is very unfortunate. There is not a Vo-tech system in our area (as far as I know). I remember Wood Shop and Metal Shop from Junior High and High School in Pennsylvania. I remember looking forward to those classes. Derek also enjoyed Auto Shop. He had to spend 1/3 of the year in the library working on other projects as Auto Shop was abruptly cancelled.

Sincerely,
Kurt

DAVECS1 · 05-26-2005, 09:25 AM

As far as I know there should only be one size of torque arm. Your welders should not have to cut anything. I am planning on making my own torque arm at some point or another, but after buying wheels and getting some PMD seat upholstered, my car budget is getting a little thin. If I can offer any advice on torque arms "I would be weary of the Edlebrock piece" I bought one brock it twice and returned to using the stock piece which never gave me problems and has yet to brake or twist. Never under estimate those GM engineers. At anyrate I think your most bang for the buck is an unmolested stock torque arm, with a polyurethane bushing.

LT1guy · 05-26-2005, 12:45 PM

The F-body torque arms are all the same, at least all that I have ever seen, as far as length is concerned. Some do have the notch in the transmission end facing the opposite way, but if you run into one of these you can use it as long as you change your torque arm bushing to match. Even the 4th gen ones will work in a third gen, at the most a bushing change is all that is required.
BTW if you guys take a break anytime this weekend, come on up to the F-Body Gathering at the Marriot on Windy Hill Rd...its a great event (9th annual), and you guys will get lots of inspiration for your project!

five7kid · 05-26-2005, 01:59 PM

The '82 & '83 manual tranny and TH200 torque arms are longer than TH700 and T5 torque arms, because the transmissions are shorter. That's why yours was cut & welded to get the TH700 in (I had a complete donor car, so I just swapped it over).

DAVECS1 · 05-26-2005, 02:29 PM

That is good information to know! Is that posted somewhere else on this site? I think it could be very helpful to those people restoring early thirdgens.

five7kid · 05-26-2005, 06:51 PM

I've talked about it before, it's been discussed on the Tranny forum before. I chose not to put it in the V6 Swap sticky because it isn't V6-specific.

kboehringer · 05-27-2005, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LT1guy
.....If you guys take a break anytime this weekend, come on up to the F-Body Gathering at the Marriot on Windy Hill Rd...its a great event (9th annual), and you guys will get lots of inspiration for your project!

LT1Guy,

Just got finished looking over the fbodygathering.com web-site. We'll be there with a camera!! Next year we'll be registered! With the help of the guys on this board we should have a pretty respectable Z-28 by the time Gathering #10 rolls around!

Sincerely,
Kurt

five7kid · 05-27-2005, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kboehringer
Five7Kid,

Our cross member is anything but "STOCK". As with everything else on this car it's been modified/screwed up. I seriously doubt anyone would want this thing to support their tranny.

I forgot that it already had a TH700 grunged into it.

kboehringer · 05-27-2005, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by five7kid
I forgot that it already had a TH700 grunged into it.

Five7Kid,

It is getting a little discouraging....EVERY thing we look at seems to have been Modified, Installed Improperly, Ruined, Missing, Rusty, Worn Out, or otherwise non-serviceable.

I am really looking forward to taking Derek to see the FBody Car show this weekend! We've got to see what the light at the end of the tunnel looks like.

Should be an opportunity to get RE-Encouraged about our project.

Sincerely,
Kurt

92heritageRS · 05-27-2005, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kboehringer
Five7Kid,

It is getting a little discouraging....EVERY thing we look at seems to have been Modified, Installed Improperly, Ruined, Missing, Rusty, Worn Out, or otherwise non-serviceable.

I am really looking forward to taking Derek to see the FBody Car show this weekend! We've got to see what the light at the end of the tunnel looks like.

Should be an opportunity to get RE-Encouraged about our project.

Sincerely,
Kurt

Just stay with it. A wise person once told me "If you want something done right you have to do it your self". Thats the only way it will be the way you want it. Stay with it, the end result is well worth the work. Just take lots of pics from the show this weekend and post them for us.

five7kid · 05-27-2005, 12:01 PM

If all else fails, crossmember http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...hreadid=261488 (Differences between 305 engines, performance tips)

Only a couple of days to act on it, though.

You said you can get a proper torque arm from local JYs.

Yeah, stick with it. Not only do you have to do it yourself if you want it done right, anything worth doing is worth doing right.

DAVECS1 · 05-27-2005, 01:04 PM

Do not get discouraged. This is a big project. Any car with integrity is. One thing i have learned is it is not going to get done overnight. It takes a while and that is part of it. This has nothing to do with budget or the type of car. Even the shows on TV that do a car correctly with an almost unlimited budget take weeks and months. And they are mostly building from a template nothing fancy or out of the ordinary. My car has been 3 years in the making and it is still far from finished. There will be a day when you slide under the car and you realize that the bottom is starting to look as clean as the top, and you start thinking to yourself, about how far you have come, and what a solid car you have built. You will have down falls ( I blew a custom built 427 small block within 15 minutes of starting it up.) You just have to step away, for awhile, maybe even find another hobby (I chose motorcycles).

firehawkslplus · 05-27-2005, 02:11 PM

The only thing I could add would be : do one thing at a time don't try and plan out everything all at once. Just keep doing the next logical or possible thing. No one job is that big a deal it's not redoing the whole car it's abunch of little jobs done one after the other. Eng. swaps to a complete rewire soon you realize there just arn't that mean things left to do and there mostly detail.

sellmanb · 05-28-2005, 04:53 PM

Since you'll be replacing the tranny mount, you ought to get a poly trans mount bushing, and torque arm mount bushing from Spohn's website.

These arent too hard to install. The only problem I had with them was that the stud they gave for the trans bushing was slightly too large to stick in the stock 700R4 crossmember, so I took a drill and made the hole slightly larger. It took about 2 minutes, which was mostly me grabbing my drill lol.

You CAN get the correct sized torque arm from Spohn as well, but it will not be nearly as cheap as if you got one from a junkyard (though Spohn's is a huge upgrade). The stock one bends way too easily, which induces wheelhop. Spohn's torque arm is much sturdier if you want some good launches. But I'm sure you guys would be perfectly fine w/ a stock one (from a junkyard, that hasnt been cut and re-welded). I wouldnt re-use that torque arm... I could only imagine how much it will suck when the weld breaks on that torque arm, and your rear differential flies upward, breaking the U-joint, and then all of a sudden there's a driveshaft where your "middle seat" in the rear is supposed to be.

kboehringer · 05-28-2005, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sellmanb
.........You CAN get the correct sized torque arm from Spohn as well, but it will not be nearly as cheap as if you got one from a junkyard (though Spohn's is a huge upgrade). The stock one bends way too easily, which induces wheelhop........I wouldnt re-use that torque arm... I could only imagine how much it will suck when the weld breaks on that torque arm, and your rear differential flies upward, breaking the U-joint, and then all of a sudden there's a driveshaft where your "middle seat" in the rear is supposed to be.

Sellmanb,

We went to the J.Yard today and found an '84 Z-28 (CC Carb)with some good parts on it. We grabbed the entire wiring harness from the engine compartment for a measley $12. I has a couple damaged wires/plugs, but nothing we can't fix easily. I also noticed that the Torque arm looked to be in good shape. We have to go back tomorrow and grab the sensors from the heads, manifold, brake manifold, power steering pump, exhaust manifold, etc. as they are all different from those our engine had. We planned to grab the torque arm as well.

I looked at the Spohn Torque arms and agree they would be a heck of an upgrade. We'll need to wait until next year to get one of those. I noticed the drive shaft safety loops on their mounts and arms. Until we can afford the real thing I might try to get my welders to create something similar.

We went to the FBodyGathering last night and the full crowd had obviously not arrived yet. There were (at that time) very few Third Gens, a few First and Second Gens but a parking lot full of Fourth Gens. We're going back tomorrow for their Stereo Competition at 1:00pm. Hopefully, we can find a couple '82's to look over.

Derek was extremely impressed with the Third Gens we saw.

Sincerely,
Kurt