Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
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I'm not sure about the mounting and air/heater box questions, but I think your stock radiator should be sufficient with the stock electric fans. Also, as far as the alternator question goes, I believe that your 400 would have had a 10SI originally. You'd have to research it, but if you wanted a higher amp alternator for your application, I'd think a 94 amp 12SI would suite you well. Here is a link for some good reading on alternators: http://www.madelectrical.com/electri...elcoremy.shtml
Good luck, sounds like a fun project
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I'm not sure about the mounting and air/heater box questions, but I think your stock radiator should be sufficient with the stock electric fans. Also, as far as the alternator question goes, I believe that your 400 would have had a 10SI originally. You'd have to research it, but if you wanted a higher amp alternator for your application, I'd think a 94 amp 12SI would suite you well. Here is a link for some good reading on alternators: http://www.madelectrical.com/electri...elcoremy.shtml
Good luck, sounds like a fun project
Yea I'm not sure on the rad this is the base model 305 which has the single fan setup, if I go ahead with this project I will probably just get a 3 row version of it and T/A dual fan setup. I want to stick to my TBI setup for a few reasons. For one its the simplest electronic fuel injection setup that I know of and still makes good power and better fuel economy than a carb. It makes for instant starts. And I could keep it pretty close to stock if I ever needed switch back. I'm also kicking around the idea of using a larger 454 TBI unit if I could score one for a decent price. I've heard that "log style" manifolds won't work but I'm not sure what those look like exactly are those the ones that would be in a second gen car? This engine looks like it would actually be easier to work on then my 305 I noticed in the pics I've seen that you can actually SEE the rear plugs on the 400 lol. Everytime I've changed plugs on my 305 those last two plugs I've had to get a jack out to do it! Thanks for the info on the alternator by the way.
__________________ 92 Firebird, 305, TBI, 4L60, Mods: K&N air filter, poly trans mount & endlinks, accel cap, rotar, wires, coil, and boush platimum plugs.
~Show em the bird, light it up and watch em in the rearveiw...
I could be wrong but as far as the distributor I think the factory HEI off the later second gens are basically the same design as the 3rd gen units just the spark curbs change and the shafts the go into the engine are different.
And I may be wrong, but I don't believe Pontiac engines ever used computer controls. So, a vaccum/mechanical advance distributor wouldn't work.
Does indian adventures still make the pontiac to third gen motor mounts? Their website catalog does not work and i emailed them and they never replied. If they still make these does anyone know how much they cost? Also has anyone found a set of headers that fit these cars yet?
I dont see a problem as long as you have all the brackets and whatnot. just watch when dropping the engine, but i dont see it being a big clearance problem. if you wanna get all fancy, get the serpentine conversion from march. the fully loaded package, tho 1000 bucks, comes with a brand new compressor.
And I may be wrong, but I don't believe Pontiac engines ever used computer controls. So, a vaccum/mechanical advance distributor wouldn't work.
I have the base TBI version not the Tune port injection I think mine is a plain vacume advance. Otherwise how would we be able to use aftermarket MSD boxs on the birds with out it really messing things up... Hmm if I get a chance tomarrow I'll pop the hood and look but last time I did a cap change I thought it was a more traditional hook up. Even if its not I bet you could adapt it to the stock HEI distributor and have the person doing the chip reprogram adjust the curves. They should be able to do that considering if you get a bigger cam you can have a chip burned to match it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 72vega
I dont see a problem as long as you have all the brackets and whatnot. just watch when dropping the engine, but i dont see it being a big clearance problem. if you wanna get all fancy, get the serpentine conversion from march. the fully loaded package, tho 1000 bucks, comes with a brand new compressor.
Those come with the compressor for 1000? I didn't know that it never mentions that in summit or jegs I wondered why the kit was so much money that makes sense if comes with the compressor I think that if you bought that compressor its normally like a 400 or so unit.
Last edited by Formula_Fire; 08-08-2007 at 10:19 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
you can mount a tuned port on a pontiac motor and its not as hard as alot of people will lead you to believe. you can do your own project starting w/ a torquer 2 intake or you can buy one of these http://www.rancefi.com/ManifoldsforSale/pontiact.htm
ok, hold on.. now that you said that, i looked and it doesnt say whether or not it comes with the compressor. i thought it did, but i stand corrected. i guess it seemed because it costed so much, it would come with the sanden 508 compressor... sorry for the misinformation.
Does anyone have any contacts at www.chiefmanyhorses.com. I've tried email and phone messages but haven't heard a word from them. Is there anyone else who makes a motor mount to put a pontiac 400 in an '84 T/A. Thanks.
First off, if links I posted YEARS ago are dead, well, they're dead.. NOT my fault or problem.. Performance Years tech forums HAD all this info on their site.. I posted those links a REALLY long time ago.
A computer controlled pontiac distributor.. you can build your own for maybe $20.. EVERY GM HEI distributor,(per year) meaning, if you take a 79 pontiac HEI distributor and an HEI chevy distributor, all the guts are interchangable.. As far as a computer controlled one, MOST of the pontiac HEI bases will accept about ALL of the newer GM computer controlled guts.
hmm.. what else... Oh.. headers from the BIG pontiac cars.. how much more explaination does there seriously need ot be there? WHAT big pontiac cars had actual PONTIAC motors in them? catalina and bonneville are BIG cars.. then you say the large MIDSIZE cars? well? if they're MIDSIZE cars, they're not BIG cars.. The headers I have were made for ALL the early 70's pontiac engine equipped BIG cars.. I can dump my pontiac engine into my 86 TA and use these headers so long as I cut off about the last 7-8 inches and find a way to put them back together again on an angle following the frame rails. they can also be shortened, but the trick is welding back together the 4 pipes. every inch of these headers clears everything factory installed in my car except that last section where they hit the frame rails. If this was a 4th gen, they'd drop right in. I have yet to perform this swap do to severe lack of time. As far as a part number? I have no idea.. I bought these headers used from Ebay to "play" with. But I would imagine a BIG car pontiac motor equiped header is going to be about the same no matter WHO you get it from.
As for transmission.. you can buy a BOP adapter plate to bolt any GM tranny to your pontiac motor. I am rebuilding my 700r4 to take about 500hp and 550lbs of torque and abuse this pontiac 400 will be pumping thru it.
anyways.. love how people start questioning and ragging on a 4 year old post.. most of what I said in the LAST post was directed towards all the people asking the same questions that were answered in MANY other posts and questions about things in my posts the DAY after I posted it. there are TONS of people who DO NOT read thru posts and just post their question regardless of what's already in the post.. If you are someone who READ thru the entire post, then obviously my last post was NOT directed towards you.
im getting more serious about a pontiac 400 and a t350 or t400 . This is a good page for info.
i hope many horses is just having a glitch , since i might need some .
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also what oil pans are you guys using ?
Me too. I just got another car for a daily driver and an going to fix up my bird next summer and have a rebuilt 76 400 block sitting in storage. I have a question has anyone tried the headers for a 2nd gen car? This is probably a dumb question but I hadn't seen it brought up anywhere in the thread. One last question I thought I saw this in the thread mentioned somewhere but can't find it now. If I'm using my stock 700R4 and the adapter plate will I have to shorten my drive-shaft and change linkage? or will it all line up?
Dataturbosix mentions somewhere in this thread that he's tried them and they don't work. I don't believe he gave any specific details of what the fit problem was though.
Dataturbosix mentions somewhere in this thread that he's tried them and they don't work. I don't believe he gave any specific details of what the fit problem was though.
Not sure about your tranny question.
i tried 2gen and a-body headers off of my dads 66 gto. they fit against the k-member *BUT* it would no clear the front frame section and the floor pans.
as i mentioned before you could use ram air IV manifolds but they are VERY HEAVY.
Datatrubosix how does the engine sit in your firebird? basically how low or high is it? What intake/carb are you running? and do they clear the stock firebird hood or do you need a ram air style hood?
Any pics available? I am seriously considering going this route in my 89 GTA. I have plenty of pontiac parts, engines, cams and heads to choose from.
__________________ 1989 Pontiac Trans Am GTA
5.7 - AUTO
1.89 60ft
13.34@103 MPH www.HOBRacing.com
Datatrubosix how does the engine sit in your firebird? basically how low or high is it? What intake/carb are you running? and do they clear the stock firebird hood or do you need a ram air style hood?
Any pics available? I am seriously considering going this route in my 89 GTA. I have plenty of pontiac parts, engines, cams and heads to choose from.
it sits, i think, where the factory 305 or 350 is. but the pontiac engines are taller. i have a torkerII intake on mine with a proform 750 carb and a 3" tall air cleaner. just the carb on the engine requires like a 1" cowl hood.
it sits, i think, where the factory 305 or 350 is. but the pontiac engines are taller. i have a torkerII intake on mine with a proform 750 carb and a 3" tall air cleaner. just the carb on the engine requires like a 1" cowl hood.
daturbosix,
Just out of curiosity, did you use the motor mount brackets from tin indian?
in the jegs book they have a set of headers just for f body motor swaps $300-$500. If thats what your looking for. they are close to the block and are shortys.
I have a dual pattern trans i might be willing to get off of, for something! just rebuilt b&m trans kit, shift kit. for my 1965 olds 425 rocket. let me know.
I am also putting a Pontiac V8 swap on my list of things to do for 2008. I have a 350 to start with to get all of the motor mount/exhaust/heater box issues worked out, so we'll see how it goes!!
ya id like to do that to my GTA, but... its a GTA.. so itll stay stock. but ihave a 350 to play with because im puttin a 455 w/ a tripower to put in my Lemans. fun stuff
I just bought a (what I think is an 84) recaro in need of re-assembly and is a 4 speed car. The bellhousing is drilled for both patterns so 1 set of indian mounts and HO manifolds and I'll be set! Probably do a high winding 400 to let the weak drivetrain live! I'll post pics soon..
I was gonna make my own as well. How much for yours? I might buy them depending on the style. Will you be using the old A-body style mounts or the late 2nd gen style that uses Pontiac clamshells and normal chevy style lowers. I was gonna try 2nd gen like these in the picture. These are Olds V8 mounts for the 2nd gen but the Pontiac mounts are similar from about 77 to 81.
the motor mounts i bought 2 years ago, just bolt to the side of the block where the factory pontiac mount bolted, and has 2 fingers come off that to go over the factory 3rdgen engine mount.
i think $50 shipped in the lower 48 would be reasonable
i think $50 shipped in the lower 48 would be reasonable
I would buy them for 50 dollars.
I need to see a picture of them first, and I need a little more info. Are they designed so that with a trans adapter the 700R4 will bolt back in it's stock location?
its a loooong frickin thread so i dont exactly remember, but i though the other mounts from whatever that company is that wont respond lowers the engine somewhat... ill re-read the entire thread later...
if i can get enough interest, ill make sets of motor mounts. for the swap seeing how there is no responce from chiefmanyhorses.com.
Any word on the mounts for the true pontiac block yet? And has anyone found a alternate source for headers yet? Also I have a question I know their not the best performance wise but why can't we use stock log style manifolds from a 2nd gen I was looking at my 305s on my car the other day and they look almost the same to me. Am I just being an idiot and they exit in the middle of a cross member or something?
Yea they will fit the problem is I am on a budget and 500 for a set of rare or replica ram air manifolds would be nice not to spend. If I could just use the stock 2nd gen manifolds and extend them to the stock exhaust thats 500 I could use somewhere else. Plus I have two sets of them in my storage unit with enough parts to build almost 2 second gen cars lol.
PS I just checked out those ram air headers and they fit the 71-1/2 to 81 f bodies.... So wouldn't they exit in the same place as the more stock ones? It would seem like they would and if thats the case I can use the stockers I already have until I can afford the real deal or make some headers.
Last edited by Formula_Fire; 06-26-2008 at 08:23 PM.
yes but they flow way better that normal manifolds. and from the looks of it no one at the moment makes headers...but i dont see that being a problem to use the factory manifolds..
yes but they flow way better that normal manifolds. and from the looks of it no one at the moment makes headers...but i dont see that being a problem to use the factory manifolds..
Yea from what I understand they flow almost as good as headers.
THe pontiac engines in relation to the mounts.... if you measure the crankshaft centerline on a pontiac in relation to the mounts, and measure a chevy motor the same way, you will see that the pontiac motor mounts of any kind will just not work. Thye will leave your engine raised up about 3 inches higher than it should be.. this throws off your drivetrain geometry by alot.. this is also the reason many people find the need to use a cowl hood. I have "mocked" my complete engine in my firebird body with the crank in the correct position/height, and with a Torker manifold, Q-jet, and 3" aircleaner, it all fit with no problem. Only problem I had with anything clearing was the alternator setup. This, as far as the 1973 brackets that were holding it on, needs to be relocated.
As for manifolds.. Last time i looked, (couple years ago), you can buy reproduction Ram-Air manifolds. they exit straight down, so clearance is not an issue. they will clear everything. Just sucks that they are so heavy. But they'll work in a pinch. If you go with the "engine swap" shorty headers, they have to dump out at the rear of the motor.. that's the only place for room for all the pipes to exit at. my whole project has been on hold for YEARS and parts are spread out between 2 different parts of town in 2 buildings or I'd have put pics on here years ago. The "big car" headers i have clear EVERYTHING except the unibody frame. One company made these headers but modified the last 8 inches to angle in towards the trans and clear the frame. There was then a "Y" pipe made that joined the collectors right behind the trans pan and off to the side where the normal exhaust runs.
I wish all those pics were still on the Performance Years pontiac website. It was a VERY well done setup. And the engine fit the bay perfectly. The opening picture on this thread is what you get when you try to just dump in a pontiac motor with pontiac mounts. It sits up WAAAY too high. And once completely assembled with tranny and tranny mount, the motor will all be tilted back causing even more clearance problems. Anyways.. pretty sure this has been said numerous times thruout the thread, but people still keep talkin about it and asking about it to no avail.
ANyways.. It'd prob help if others started posting their pictures of whatever they have going on and of anything they've encounters or come up with to solve a problem.
THe pontiac engines in relation to the mounts.... if you measure the crankshaft centerline on a pontiac in relation to the mounts, and measure a chevy motor the same way, you will see that the pontiac motor mounts of any kind will just not work. Thye will leave your engine raised up about 3 inches higher than it should be.. this throws off your drivetrain geometry by alot.. this is also the reason many people find the need to use a cowl hood. I have "mocked" my complete engine in my firebird body with the crank in the correct position/height, and with a Torker manifold, Q-jet, and 3" aircleaner, it all fit with no problem. Only problem I had with anything clearing was the alternator setup. This, as far as the 1973 brackets that were holding it on, needs to be relocated.
As for manifolds.. Last time i looked, (couple years ago), you can buy reproduction Ram-Air manifolds. they exit straight down, so clearance is not an issue. they will clear everything. Just sucks that they are so heavy. But they'll work in a pinch. If you go with the "engine swap" shorty headers, they have to dump out at the rear of the motor.. that's the only place for room for all the pipes to exit at. my whole project has been on hold for YEARS and parts are spread out between 2 different parts of town in 2 buildings or I'd have put pics on here years ago. The "big car" headers i have clear EVERYTHING except the unibody frame. One company made these headers but modified the last 8 inches to angle in towards the trans and clear the frame. There was then a "Y" pipe made that joined the collectors right behind the trans pan and off to the side where the normal exhaust runs.
I wish all those pics were still on the Performance Years pontiac website. It was a VERY well done setup. And the engine fit the bay perfectly. The opening picture on this thread is what you get when you try to just dump in a pontiac motor with pontiac mounts. It sits up WAAAY too high. And once completely assembled with tranny and tranny mount, the motor will all be tilted back causing even more clearance problems. Anyways.. pretty sure this has been said numerous times thruout the thread, but people still keep talkin about it and asking about it to no avail.
ANyways.. It'd prob help if others started posting their pictures of whatever they have going on and of anything they've encounters or come up with to solve a problem.
Yep got that, use the aftermarket conversion mounts to get the engine in the right position which only cost like $80 to $90 (or make your own). Dump in a th350 and mod the crossmember, or alternativly use a adapter kit ($90) retain your 700r4 or get a BOP pattern 200r4 from a G-body. Either make a set of custom header or use either stock 2nd gen F-body manifolds (bad performance) or spring for a set of repo ram air manifolds ($500). As far as the alternator goes you can either change the mounting setup or from the pics I've seen its only a little off you could probably modify the bracket. Stock radiator should be up to the task if not the aftermarket has a TON of stock mounting radiators for our cars. Exhaust is pretty straight forward stuff just run your own and have it dump before the rear wheels or have a Y-pipe made and have it go into a free flowing 3" aftermarket catback system. Plumb up fuel and sending units and your good to go. I would think that weld in subframe connectors with this setup would be a must for any mill making decent power.
I think that's about it. From everything I've seen its not that bad of a swap people just make it out worse than it is. It would probably take about the same effort to drop in a 454 or something like that and I would bet you couldn't keep your stock hood either. The nice thing about this swap is. 1. if your a pontiac guy then you have a true blue poncho engine in your car to brag about and. 2. If you do it right the car looks completley stock and you have a awesome sleeper with tons of torque.
__________________ 92 Firebird, 305, TBI, 4L60, Mods: K&N air filter, poly trans mount & endlinks, accel cap, rotar, wires, coil, and boush platimum plugs.
~Show em the bird, light it up and watch em in the rearveiw...
Http://www.FormulaFire.iwarp.com
Last edited by Formula_Fire; 07-06-2008 at 01:54 PM.
Yep got that, use the aftermarket conversion mounts to get the engine in the right position which only cost like $80 to $90 (or make your own). Dump in a th350 and mod the crossmember, or alternativly use a adapter kit ($90) retain your 700r4 or get a BOP pattern 200r4 from a G-body. Either make a set of custom header or use either stock 2nd gen F-body manifolds (bad performance) or spring for a set of repo ram air manifolds ($500). As far as the alternator goes you can either change the mounting setup or from the pics I've seen its only a little off you could probably modify the bracket. Stock radiator should be up to the task if not the aftermarket has a TON of stock mounting radiators for our cars. Exhaust is pretty straight forward stuff just run your own and have it dump before the rear wheels or have a Y-pipe made and have it go into a free flowing 3" aftermarket catback system. Plumb up fuel and sending units and your good to go. I would think that weld in subframe connectors with this setup would be a must for any mill making decent power.
I think that's about it. From everything I've seen its not that bad of a swap people just make it out worse than it is. It would probably take about the same effort to drop in a 454 or something like that and I would bet you couldn't keep your stock hood either. The nice thing about this swap is. 1. if your a pontiac guy then you have a true blue poncho engine in your car to brag about and. 2. If you do it right the car looks completley stock and you have a awesome sleeper with tons of torque.
I have done this mod but used a carb.I did it with a T-5 like back in 1996 when there were no cnversion kits and made all the brackets out of just stuff laying around,oh and also kept the air on the car.with a stock 305 radiator the car was a 1987 T/A if I remember correctly..boy there were quite some engineered pieces on it and my dumb a$$ didn't take any pics either...goodluck guy...Dave
