TxTtopZ

Edit... being nice is a virtue...

TxTtopZ

Orr... Being that Matt's 305 that ran what a 12.3?? with more gear than 4.10's, for maximum ET's... why do you think the HSR will want less? Mid range biased intake?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Matts car had more cam than he plans to run, so it had a much higher powerband. 4.10's will fit this car nicely since the power band will be up in the 6000 rpm range. I'd run the 4.10's on the street with this setup if no spray or boost is planned.. Just for a driver with low end torque and if gas mileage is a concern, then I'd go abit smaller.

TxTtopZ

Im a fan of the 3.42 myself... especially with a 700r4. Last night I got my first kill, a 1997 Mustang GT with a cat back and I have no idea whatever else..point being it was a highway run, so my 3.23's were superior 70-110

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

I wouldn't put a dime into a gen 1 motor unless it was a dart block buildup anymore. The gen 3 motors do everything better and are the future of hot rodding and mpg. If you're planning a complete buildup then that is the only direction I'd suggest. As for a 4000 rpm stall not being streetable, we have 11k miles on a 5200 stall'd th350 in one of our camaros. Highway, daily driving etc.... this isn't 1995, converter technology has come a LONG way from then. Drives around like a tight 2400 stall from back in the day but when you hit the peddle the rpms just keep climbing. I don't know you personally Atilla or agree with 50% of what you suggest to be people, but everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it. Why all the talk of wanting more power and complete engine swaps if you're not going to put together proven combos instead? I had a fast 305 back in the day as well and it is a complete turd over what even a 5.3L gen 3 motor could do. Heck the 5.3L with a cam and stock ls1 intake swap will walk over most tpi 350 cars without breaking a sweat. Best out my old 305 with heads ported by one of the best porters in the country could only muster an 11.60 on a small shot with a solid lifter cam that was barely streetable. It ran 13.0s all the time in a heavy 3600 pound car. I would never put a dime into one of those when 350s are dime a dozen and gen 3 motors are light years ahead of that. But hey I am never going to be THE ENGINE builder like you, but out of the 50 or so engine buildups and cars I've built for people locally, never had a complaint.

Atilla the Fun

Okay, let's look at this. First, let's compare it to a 700R-4 with 3.73:1 axle. This has a slightly taller combined ratio in first. And this has a slightly deeper combined ratio in second, third and fourth.
Also, this has less rpm drop on the 1-2 upshift, and slightly less mass inside the transmission.
Now, let's consider the effects with the chosen tires. In first, 40 mph is 6100 rpm, where the "Hate Me" 305 offered it's peak HP of 372. In second, 70 mph is 6100 rpm. In third, 110 mph is 6100 rpm. I don't believe this car will run 110 mph in the quarter mile at 4200+ feet elevation, at least not without nitrous or boost, but that's okay.
And then in overdrive, a tiny 305 with a 218/226-112 cam is going to be happier this way than with 700R-4 and 3.73:1. This way it'll handle hills and wind better, instead of always kicking down. Peak mpg might suffer by 1-2 mpg, but real world average mpg will be better by 2-3 mpg.
This should ET at least a couple of tenths better than the 700-R4/3.73:1 combo.
And getting 4.10:1 gears, well, every Explorer in the salvage yard has an 8.8" with 4.10:1 gearing. Same for 4WD F150s.
My 8.8" axle is currently sporting 2.73:1 gearing and a rebuilt Traction-Lok diff. So I just need the 4.10:1 ring and pinion for it.

Atilla the Fun

Excellent! Obviously, combo 1 is all done around 5000, no need to hold first past 5500. So all it needs are a set of SpeedPro H534CP60 pistons, a pair of FelPro 1094 steel shim head gaskets, and a stock rebuild. The cam is from COMP, the timing chain is a Cloyes Street Roller, the oil pump is an out-of-the-box M55, with whatever pressure spring it comes with, and new Fel Pro gaskets. Nothing fancy. Rod bearing clearances at 0.0020"-0.0025", main bearings at 0.0025"-0.0030"
For combo 2, one might imagine it could benefit from some upgrades. I agree. Add a set of ARP rod bolts.
For combo 3, I have the LQ4 dished pistons, but I'm not at sea level. The SpeedPro H1129CT-.75mm are $240/set. Those are LQ9 / LS2 pistons. With the Wegner heads milled, I should have 11.4:1 static, which means people at sea level should build for 10.5:1.
Otherwise, the LQ is a pure stock rebuild, and only that because I was unable to find a real LQ9 at a fair price. My LQ4 is all the way apart already, it just needs a light hone to de-glaze the cylinder walls.
I'll probably go with the best timing chain possible, but under $100. The cam is a custom grind from COMP, but using "shelf" lobes. I won't need trick pushrods, retainers, springs or rockers, with the HP peaking at 5600 rpm. I will show the mod to the plastic things that keep the lifters from spinning. It's not worth any power, but it reduces aeration of the oil.

Atilla the Fun

Proven combos? every combo that is now "proven" was once as new and untried as each of the 3 I here proposed are to everyone but me.
I still enjoy a low-ten-second ride, blasting up on-ramps, making passes that the drivers being passed think impossible,...big power is fun. But milder, slower combos can be fun IF done right. It's a different kind of fun, and some passing becomes impossible, but what the heck, everyone does at least 5 over the posted limit, all the time, or they're so far below the limit that even an LG4 with 2.73s can make it safely.

Atilla the Fun

Also, every enthusiast should, once in their life, try a combo that has too much cam and too much stall.
But converters can't progress unless we find a way to add a second stator, or something else equally drastic. Every imaginable combination of diameter, clearance and fin angle had already been tried by 1990, the only thing new since then is improved marketing to justify higher prices. Look at Yank, for example. www.converter.cc
The B&M Holeshot 3000 is an old design, but not TOO old. It's easy to daily drive if you're an enthusiast. But I let my mom take it while I was wrenching on her car over July 4, back in '95. She came back white as a ghost, angry that I hadn't warned her that there was something wrong with that car. She swore to never again trade cars with me.
A daily driver can be driven by ANY person, ANY time, ANY where, with NO special instructions from the owner, and the borrower think nothing's abnormal, except the good power.
By that standard, the B&M TM2400 is also not a daily driver converter with a '95 LT1, but is fine with certain 305 combos.
Anyway, my modest combos with modest boost always destroy wild N/A combos, at everything.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Id find a used set of LQ9 pistons. Most people who buy the more expensive '9s dont actually use the stuff that makes them a '9

Nearly any aftermarket cam even slightly more aggressive than stock will require springs at minimum. The stock springs are specced for the stock cam, and barely that even. It would be good insurance to upgrade to forged pushrods too. The length will most likely change for the different cam, but if you actually DRIVE the car they like to bend

Why bother peaking power at 5600 with a NA LSx? Nearly all cams want to rev, the intake is designed for damn near 7000, and the heads flow exceptional up top. Wastes a good bit of the powerband shifting at 5600 or just above

FYI, the lifter tray mod is all but debunked. A C5R race teams with 5 engines tried it against a team not doing it in a series of endurance races. None lost any engines due to oil problems. Im not saying dont do it, just dont expect to prove anything with it, esp with the engine reving so low. Do a search in the adv engineering forum on 'tech about it

Also, LSx engines love big stalls, even street driven every day. 4000 is common even on DDs

Klortho

I can say that I have, a buddy has an S10 with a built 350 that has a Doug Herbert cam (wish I knew the specs) that seems large with a 4000 stall in it. I drove it 45 miles to the Rod Run in Pigeon Forge on the interstate. Turbo 350 with 3.73's and it sucked royally, 4000 is way too much stall for a street driven vehicle if you're going to drive it any distance at all. I don't think it's fun at all to drive it, at WOT shifting manually all you hear is the motor changing pitch a little bit and no "feel" of the truck changing gears.

Atilla the Fun

Even you still have a lot to learn.
First, I've been trying for 2 years to get a used set of LQ9 pistons. I've run ads on ls1tech. Usually, some idiot comes along and offers more than they're worth, so miss out. I've seen guys offer $500/set. Stupid! I can go new for half that.
Second, I didn't specify stock springs, I just typed that I don't need trick springs. And LS6 springs aren't trick.
As for the pushrods, if you use COMP 26918-16 springs, then yes, you need better pushrods. If you thrash the engine with a T56, then you need better pushrods. But I'm looking at a real world build: LS6 springs, a 4L60E, and no more than 6200 in first, 6000 in second, and 5600 in third.
Stock pushrods have proven able to do that for 150,000 miles.
Let's look at the biggest emissions-legal "shelf" cam for LSx: the TR224-114. It gives peak HP at 6300 rpm with really high flowing heads, intake and exhaust. It might spin 7000 in first gear.
And that's fine. I drove one. Me hates it. By the way, up to 65 mph, the aforementioned Silverado had no trouble pulling it, despite the extra weight, drag, and inferior transmission. The truck had a stock converter, the LS1 Camaro was T56, with 4.10:1 and LTs, plus LS6 intake. The truck has 4.56:1 gears. The Camaro was on drag radials. The truck was in 4-high.
The 210/218-114 cam is proven to beat the stock LQ4 cam at ALL rpm, from 1500 rpm on up. The TR224-114 cannot boast any advantage below 3500 rpm, where it actually makes a lot less, and gets worse the lower the revs.
I read about the lifter tray drilling in the place you suggested, that's why I keep doing it for my customers. I already stated that it's not necessary. But it hurts nothing, costs nothing, and is a little peace of mind. That makes it worth doing.
If you want to read about LSx combos that pull 7000, there's all the info you could ever want already on ls1tech. that's why I'm not willing to go that route. There's nothing new to be learned from copying that tired old idea.
The LSx is not an Ultimate-HP engine. If that's what you want, then last season's discarded NASCAR blocks, heads, and such are just what you need.
The LSx is an efficiency engine. And my recipe here will present much new information. There is a lot to be learned yet from my much more sensible approach. You won't see anyone on ls1tech trying a combo like mine. They're all wasting their money on chasing the lowest ET, or the biggest number on the chassis dyno, or both.
That might give them a thrill equal to sex with a supermodel, for as long as their income holds out, but ultimately leads nowhere.
Competition is the worst thing about humans. It so...animalistic. 2010 years ago, a famous man died, for teaching that we should get along. Competition is the exact opposite of what that good soul died for.
And competition is the only thing you'll find on ls1tech.
I'm a little better than that.
That's why I don't subscribe to your me-too build theory. Why compete, when I can do better? I do torque cams and modest boost, and I surpass the wild naturally aspirated guys at total build cost being less for me, mpg being better for me, daily driveability for granny being best for me, emissions being cleaner for me, durability being better for me, all in one car, all at the same time. Every time.
Not once have any of my torque-turbo cars ever lost a single one of those categories to a wild naturally aspirated car.
You want efficiency, I'm the only man on the internet to talk to.
Anyway, according to Tony Mamo, the runner lengths of the LS6 and F.A.S.T. intake manifolds are tuned for a HP peak no higher than 6300 rpm on an LS1 with any heads, even AFR 225 heads.
And the runner lengths of the L76/LS3 intakes aren't significantly different.
As for torque, the peak should happen around 4900 rpm.
Tony goes on to tell what Intake Closing you want your cam to have, and what happens when you deviate from these two points.
He's correct, on the whole issue. Go do your reading.
And the BS he has to put up with is a large part of why I keep my identity hidden.

TxTtopZ

So when does this "decision making process" end? What's the official score?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yep and is a reason why i dont recommend the donkey dick cams 90% of those guys run. If you want a fast LSx, you got to get away from the LSx style intake manifold and go with a shorter runner single plane thats properly ported for air distribution.

There are alot of good running FAST 90/90 92/92 setups however and pull to 7K with a good flat top power curve. Its all in what you want in a car.

iroc stangs

I would really like to see #2 built, its nothing out of reach by the adverage person by much that wants to stick to his/her 305 and wants to make power. Also your have an ton of torque too shoot out of pretty much any sticky situation like when your trying to beat that ls3 vette to that single lane up ahead

I just personally think #2 would be the most logical choice for your build and when/if you build it, you can bet your azz i'll be watching all the updates, i think many others would to. Not much help for you but thats just my thoughts, Good luck!

And sure, i'll like to see how you wedge that motor in! Also if you dont mind, could you also pm me what an stall is for/ does/works exactly? Thanks.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

To add, since this is going in a mustang it would be interesting to see what the other Ford 5.0 guys say about this GM 5.0 or even if it will run with the 5.0 guys

Drac0nic

Hey silly question and I know you have your mind set on how you want to do things (hell I'm that sorta person myself) but what about a set of L05 heads milled down for one of the combos?

I realize that you're going to have to shave a lot of meat to get what you want for an "optimal" CR with those but if you're using 350 Vortec heads (I don't think you said 58 cc ones anywhere) It would not likely be any more material.

Supposedly the low/mid range of them can be fairly nice stock and a good port/valve setup on them would be quite interesting to see. Just throwing some random musings out there I've sort of had the thought of it on the tip of my brain for a while.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

LO5s use the crappy swirl port heads. Pretty much any other head out there will do better than those. Theres no point in milling them either since the LO3 heads are around

89fbirdformula

there isnt a chance of the chevy 5.0 305 hanging with either the old 5.0, or the new 5.0.

thomas1976

I would be curious about this one, a correctly built 305 with ported 081 heads is intriguing.

iroc stangs

so even if he was to have say an competly forged, 60. over, 305 that was running say 15lbs of boost pushing 900hp 1000torque in an car competly suited for that power it wouldnt be able to run with an ford 5.0 that had 300k miles pushing 150hp 150 torque. Hmmm that sounds an little fishy...

Drac0nic

larger runners than an L03 head yet the same general design? I personally suspect it would do a lot better than you give it credit for.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

All i can say is, why wergner heads on a engine with such a small cam, you can port your own as i have seen and not have wasted cash on a flowing head with no cam to support them, not even an option to me.

TxTtopZ

I agree. Take said 5.0 block, have it machined for splayed 4 bolt mains, add a set of hyper or forged slugs, nice I or H beam rods, forged crank, nice cam and valvetrain, some nice flowing 230-240cfm heads..add a supercharger or turbo set up and BAM... 550hp at least. There is NO reason why a GM 5 liter cannot run with a Ford 5 liter given the street application as a "limitation". As with any other make and model, its how deep your pockets go. Now, NA vs NA, yeah the 3.73" bore wont compete with a bigger 4", but with TPI and a 3.48" stroke vs a 3" stroke there will be more tq. Fords "TPI" which it is a tuned port 2 piece intake on the 5 liter EFI engines from 1986-1995 doesnt produce the tq Chevrolet's did. IIRC the Ford produced 225 hp and 300ft lbs. stock. The 305 made more than that.

89fbirdformula

i think what you guys fail to look at it and realize...

if its SO easy, then why dont you see any fast 305s? its all well and good in theory and on paper, but it just isnt the case in the real world.

and some of you guys are comparing apples to oranges, i mean CMON, a 900hp 305? thats laughable at best...and then comparing it to a 150hp 302? get real.

all variables the same, the ford 302 will destroy gm's 305, those who cant admit that, are in denial.

My mild MILD combo 93 hatch, went 12.0 on motor, and 10.7x on spray in a full weight 32xx pound car.

Car had box stock edelbrock 5.0performer heads,box stock 5.0 performer intake, 24# injectors, full exhaust, cf clutch, 4.10 gear, ford Fcam{which is small}..the same things done to a 305gm, wouldnt even come close to running those times.


i somewhat agree with the deep pockets comment, but even if it were possible...WHY bother? why limit yourself? why spend more money to have LESS?

those of you arguing about tq should know, cubes win!

TxTtopZ

Whoa! You dont see the 305 in performance apps because it doesnt have a performance market like the 302. Look at Matt Walters 305, the mods on that car would net the EXACT same times on a 302. 12.3 with some ported factory heads, converter and gears with traction. As a matter of fact E7's are hardly worth a low 12 ported. I had ported GT40 irons and still only ran a mid 12 and they were ported by none other than bennett racing. If you dont know who they are you arent a 5.0 guy or havent been one since the 90's. I agree past instances says 302 is actually more than 305, day in day out... but then again Stock eliminator is factory performance parts oriented and the stangs are no quicker than the 305's. Also, the 305, made 372 hp with just some milled vortec 062's and cam etc. when TFS's top end kit with street heat heads does an ADVERTISED 350hp 370tq. Both used stock bottom ends from the factory... The Hate me 305 was lower compression to boot.
.. Also, the reason 305 gets no love is because yes, more cubes makes more power, and we had a 350 to mod in our cars, the ford guys were stuck with the 302, so thats what they modded. Kinda like the 4.6 281 deal. Some 351 swapping then like some 5.4 swapping now. So please
dont give me that 302 is sooooo much better crap. This is why I voted for #2, I want to see what an all out 305 is worth! I bet everyone is surprised.

89fbirdformula

there are guys running e7 heads in the 10s...look up NMRA racing...

matt walters car was also GUTTED completely, and was 3050 raceweight...

you guys act like this 305 debate is something new, PLENTY of people have tried to go fast with one, and very few have done it, and to those...who STILL has a 305? exactly.

ill argue it to the day, ford 302 vs chevy 305, mod for mod, all variables the same...the ford will WIN. ive had my fair share of both..and i KNOW which is quicker.

its been what, 30+ years the first 305 left the factory? if it hasnt happened yet, its never going to.

TxTtopZ

No one is saying (atleast im not) that the 305 is better, or equal, it's not, but with the right mods, it can be competitive.
I have had a bunch of 5.0's, worked as a tech for an all mustang shop, worked with Bill Buck Murillos chassis guy...
You keep saying the same thing, like you did yesterday, not realizing we arent arguing... but I guess you need it spelled out?
I know matts car, all about it. 305's have also gone 10's in stock eliminator. Look that up.

Drac0nic

What's interesting about this is that if you look at it you're running a full aftermarket head/intake/cam setup. If you can a 226@050 cam "tame" that's your own deal. Look at what most TPI people run it isn't that high duration. I would say that most people run something 10-20 degrees less.

Besides that I will add in a few other metrics; lets look at the bore to stroke ratio fo a 305 versus a 383. Both are 30 over to make it fair.

383=1.075
310=1.082

The 305 actually has a better bore to stroke ratio than a 383. Don't see anyone bitching about 383s these days.

That being said I must tip my hat and beg apologies from Mr. Fun for making a mess of his thread. I dare say that this is a challenge being issued.

89fbirdformula

im not arguing at all, just pointing things out...

i think what needs to happen, is a benchmark ET/mph needs to be established...going 13s with a 305 is easy...going 12s/11s is much harder..

i still have to ask, why settle for less, and pay more? if you're going to invest the time/money into a combo, why not go for more cubes, for LESS money.

You must have missed the point where i said, apples to apples, the 305 just cant compete with a a ford 5.0..

in fact...i had ALMOST that same combo in an 82 t/a with a 4spd, and it was a turd. ran great and all, was reliable, and got decent MPG, but it went 13.1s..

the only real difference in the way my 82 t/a were setup, and the mustang were setup, was the t/a had a slightly larger cam.

TPI guys dont run that much duration because TPI is junk lol, looks awesome, performs terribly.

i still think the OP should go with option 3, even if it is a bad combo in MY eyes.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Only thing I will say is ford has the advantage in weight. Stangs especially LX models are alot lighter than the thirdgen, so naturally its going to have an advantage at the drag strip right off the bat. NOt uncommont for sub 3100lb raceweights with stangs. thirdgens are in the 3450-3600 range depending on driver and model. But in the long run, 4" bore vs 3.76" bore, the larger bore with shorter stroke will beat the small bore larger stroke as rpms increase. Just can fill a 4" bore better than a 3.76"

iroc stangs

Because most people want the easy way out to power, which an larger CI engine will do better but i have no doubt an 305 COULD make 900hp/tq when your serious, may not be easy but it could be done.

And hey, you said an ford 5.0 could crush an gm 5.0 so im just putting it in suspective.

89fbirdformula

You ever heard the phrase "work smart, not hard"?

Alot of people have swapped from l98's to 5.3 lsx motors..why? they make MORE power, better driveability etc etc.

the 305 has a ton working against it, and really nothing going for it, GEN1 sbc's in general are getting to be this way.

Lsx motors make more power, have better drivability, and get better mpg, this is just a fact...technology is on OUR side.

finally,just because something can be done, should it be done?

Atilla the Fun

I guessed that I'd get people chiming in on Monday who had no weekend access to the internet, but I guess 89fbirdformula caused too much revulsion.

Atilla the Fun

I really like making new friends. I'll try to get those PMs to you sometime today.
I don't believe the HSR Vortec 315 could beat an LS3, at least not above, say, 3000 rpm at least, 3500 at most, unless it's a turbo'ed 305 against a bolt-ons LS3.

Atilla the Fun

You make one point there. Most of the Ford guys bash using a GM engine. Running a 5.0 with a 305 is a matter of which upgrades each has. Stock 081 heads out-flow stock E7TE heads, even with the huge diference in bore diameter.
Stock 5.0 cranks seem to be indestructible, but stock 5.0 blocks tend to literally break in half around 600 rwhp. With 305s, it's the opposite way around. Our blocks are good for 800 crank HP, but our stock cranks are done around 500 crank HP.

Atilla the Fun

FYI, the best of the 58 cc, '96-up Vortec heads are NO better, in ANY way, than 081s.

Atilla the Fun

Also, I did evaluate an LO5, with 700R-4 and 2.73:1 gears, plus 215/65R15s on 15x7s. This morphed into an LO5 with RamJet 350 cam, 081 heads, and 3.08:1 gears.
If you want to drive 2000 miles every week on the open highways, this is an ideal combo. I strongly recommend it. Or if you want to add boost, leave the LO5/2.73 combo alone, switch to 235/60-15 Drag Radials, and keep the boost sane, like maybe 1.6 bar at most.

Atilla the Fun

LO5 heads have slightly more cross section than LO3 heads. Putting milled LO5 heads on a flat-top 315 should out-perform a real LO3 assembly in power potential.

Atilla the Fun

I tend to ruin the heads that I do R&D on. In one port, I develop my ideas in one direction, and in the very next port, I'm off on a different line of attack.
I've run out of heads that can go on the LQ4 short block, and I need to buy something.
I'd like to find those new 243s for $300/pr that people keep typing about, but as far as I have researched it, GM never really did offer 243s, even bare, for less than about $600 each. However, from Wegner's price, it seems that they are getting 243s at a lower price than I can.

Atilla the Fun

The Ford design was slightly better above 4500 rpm. But the best LB9 was 230 Hp, an advantage of only 5 horses, and still 300 ft-lbs, NO advantage. The Vortec 5000 was 230 HP, but that's not a direct comparison. I'b about fed up with porting Vortec intakes, anyway. Not that porting them is any challenge, but the polishing is sheer hell, and ruins too many mandrels. Those 6" mandrels are at least $10 each.

Atilla the Fun

cubes win, only off-idle. Under 4000 rpm, a TPI 355 can far out-torque an LS3. But is that the whole story? Not even in my world.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

I need to get some more aluminum mandrels soon now that you mention it, got to port my buddies 6.0 heads(traded some LCAs my car needed badly).

Atilla the Fun

It's only a challenge if someone takes it.
And I'm more lenient than any moderator.
I'm not about to try for one of the top 305s ever. Noone is offering to buy it, so why should I build it? I can get you 900 HP from a 305, if you have the funds. I can make it emissions legal, too. No promises about MPG, however.

Atilla the Fun

Now I will count your vote.

Atilla the Fun

My LX is gutted, BUT I will add sand bags for the testing. I don't have any fiberglass body panels or lexan windows on the car at this moment. Well, the stock rear spoiler is fiberglass. I think 3350 pounds with driver and fuel is fair.

Atilla the Fun

By the time you figure the costs and the difficulties, the SBC isn't dead yet.
AFR 205 LSx heads are no better under 0.500" than AFR 180 SBC heads, and the SBC heads are half the price. Combine these with an L99 crank and rods, the chevy 302 can kill the ford 302, with ANY 180 heads.
Converting to LSx is becoming popular and common, but still is neither cheap nor easy.
the #1 advantage the 305 does have is that everyone refuses to go to a 350. Let alone any LSx.
And ultimately, power is all about airflow, while mpg AND driveability are all about low-rpm torque.
305s can do the low-rpm adequately. Boost fixes the top end. The 5.3 should have better low end, but it doesn't. It can offer way more top end. But a 600 rwhp 305 is still cheaper and easier than a 600 rwhp 5.3.

Atilla the Fun

The tally so far:
Undecided: Scorpner, I_R_O_C_Z_2_8, Zones89RS,
Option 1: Kingtorquer and Thomas1976
2: TxTtopZ, irocstangs, Draconic, Orr89RocZ,
3: 89fiirdformula, five7kid, SkinnyZ, Klortho, xpndbl3, Pocket.
If the undecided people would please pick something, we could declare a winner, and I could get started.

Atilla the Fun

To avoid confusion, carbides and burrs are the names for the cutters. Some are aluminum only, others do iron and aluminum. Arbors and mandrels are the names for the things that hold the polishing rolls, They are universal.

iroc stangs

good points, but if its done its done.