iroc stangs

ya, im pretty sure though an well built hsr 305 could get out of the whole quicker then an ls3, thats if you can get traction.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

I’m on the fence but for different reasons than most.

Number one could be something that a guy that wanted to remain close to stock could do. (Ie. the Q-Jet, heads HEI etc.) I say that since there’s a few out there that have rather rare Thirdgens that simply want more power. Also seems to be a cheaper build?

I’m also curious about how the Wegner heads will perform. I did a quick search for a price on the heads and I didn’t see where they were any cheaper than L92’s though. I’m considering upgrading my 2.8 since the tranny went out and this would be something I might consider.

So I pick #3.

TxTtopZ

I could see how if your f body is a v6, you would want #3... I dont blame that vote.
I just have seen maybe 3 305 cars that were not magazine builds and I want a decent 305 for comparison because the Hate Me hasnt been done again as far as I know, andI want to debunk it so I can move on. But if confirmed???!!! Thats pretty hot, for a 305! I know what a healthy Lq9 will do, no doubt.
But just as you said it, I want to keep the 305, my car is NOT meant to be a racer. Just a nice example of what it was the day it was born.
I can attest to all these guys wanting an LQ9, as I too live OFF the internet and know what saturday nights look like at the car meet lots. However, this is NOT a max HP build, this IS an efficiency build. The LQ9 in this thread wont beat anything thats got over 500hp so, it wont be able to run with anything in Austin... unless Atilla throws some boost at it. Then it will.. But, in all honesty, if he throws boost on them, wont that change the whole idea thus making the 305 guys votes a waste of time? So why are we voting at all? The difference between #2 and #3 with boost is HUGE!

houseofpain4_

i vote for #2 sence it seems to me like more of us wuld have somthing like this ty

I_R_O_C_Z_2_8

iTrader: (6)

I vote number 3 as well.

89fbirdformula

again, i ask...why bother with the 305?

alot of you i dont think are reading up on what the op's intentions are...

he is planning to swap this into a foxbody mustang...why bother going through the trouble to BUILD, AND swap a motor from a completely different brand, into the car, if its going to be gm's wonderful underperforming engine?

in that aspect, the ford 302, will do anything/everything the 305 can do, but it will do it better, with the benefits of fords eec SEFI...

swapping an 305 sbc into a fox, is kinda counter productive, and EXPENSIVE.

swapping an lsx based motor, is cheap, foxbody longtubes, with lsx flanges welded on, fit like a glove, and again, you have a powerful computer with SEFI, and the benefits of OBD2.

it's not like whatever he does with these 305s, will show anybody with an fbody anything...fox's are LIGHT, they hook VERY well, with nothing but a tire {gotta love factory 4 link]...

if this were a thirdgen build, that came factory with a 305,i could atleast SEE the argument of building it, however id still advise against it.

if this build is about pure economy,why not just toss a little 5.3 in the thing, stay small on the cam, conservative on the converter,and on the reargear..even though LSX motors LOVE a large converter, its their nature, RPM peak is higher then traditional sbc, therefore the converter needs to be matched to that to provide peak performance...

MPG wont matter if using a lockup style trans, which i asume you will being this is a economy build. city mileage may drop a tad, but really, isnt it worth the trade off because of how fun it will be?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Because this is a thirdgen forum and thirdgens have 305's. if you want an LSx, go visit ls1tech.

TxTtopZ

As true as that may be. I am not for tearing up my nice car with an engine swap. Some of us have survivor cars that dont want to mess with all that yet. If you going to start talking about right and wrong swapping because the vehicle is a Ford and not a Chevrolet, I say use a 393 or 408 stroker (thats a Ford 351 stroked). I dont agree with brand swappings, I never have.
This is TGO and the 305 build WOULD be good for some info, and it belongs here, rather if you think so or not. And it would be fun, if you think so or not. If you want LSX theres other forums for that!

TxTtopZ

WOW! You beat me to it! lol I was thinking the same thing!

NY3RDGEN

Option 2 FTW please..

Especially if its going into a fox body. We all know what Ford guy have done with there small cub 5.0 liter motors in those light rocket cars. Lets see what the GM counterpart will do in the same platform. I think a chevy 5.0 fox body would rock. And get alot of attention everywere. And most importantly help alot of people out with knowledge of the build. The pros and cons ect..

Atilla the Fun

Fair enough. I'm not feeling argumentative, but consider this. L92/LS3 heads also require buying the offset intake rockers, and an L76/LS3 intake manifold. Now how does the price compare?
And even if, at this point, they're still very close, price cannot change the fact that even 230 cc cathedral ports will still out-torque and out-mileage any non-cathedral-LSx-heads.
Guys wanting to look stock but really thump should be either starting their own threads, or PM me.

Atilla the Fun

So, where's all the reference material I can read on the billions of other turbo 305s? I read up on them on the turbo forums, but even there I don't see hardly any.

Atilla the Fun

I think you've missed a few things I've typed.
Kingtorquer pointed out that the 'stang is close enough to a third gen for the results to be relevant. Not huge discrepancies in drag, wheelbase, frontal area, front suspension, basic layout, weight distribution, and so on.
Swapping the SBC, as I did it in my swap thread on the 'stang forum, is cheaper than ANY LSx or even 351W swap.
I could use Gibson shortied intended for '88-'98 C1500 pickups, with a Catco H-pipe, or I could use long tubes that are listed for '67-'81 Camaros.
Or I can even try stock exhaust manifolds if someone thinks of a good reason.
LSx engines having higher rpm torque peaks is wonderful after driving a TPI, in some situations. I never was happy with stock L98s being done at 4800, I like torque engines that still pull to 5500. Combo 1 doesn't do that, but it's lacking votes anyway.
But LSx engines aren't the only engines that ET better with race converters. Build you a 377 SBC, top with AFR 195 heads, and add a solid roller, plus a Super Victor, and that'll behave much like an LS3, at the track. I'll do better on the street, but it'll like a race converter for best ETs.
But combo 3 will show what a typical LSx with an intelligent cam can do with a grandma-capable converter.
Show me even 1 video of someone riding along with a 65 +year old lady in an LSx car with a stall over 3799 rpm.
It doesn't exist.
I can do video, next spring, of the 65 year old lady driving any of these 3 combos.

Atilla the Fun

Do you guys realize that if I had posted this in out Ltx/LSx sub-forum, every vote woulda been for combo 3? And had I posted it anywhere else but Swap, every vote woulda been 305.
I was hoping for a balance here, and I got something close.

Atilla the Fun

I already mentioned that I have a stroked 351W for this car, but it's not going into this car in the next year.

Atilla the Fun

You did notice the part where it's gutted, so I'll be adding sandbags, right?

NY3RDGEN

yes of course. Still a fox body platform though. What exact weight will you be going for?

Atilla the Fun

Latest tally: combo 3: 8 votes.
combo 2: with my vote, and Doom86, below, 8 votes.
combo 1: 2 votes.
Zones89RS hasn't clarified his vote yet.

NY3RDGEN

Also, If this build is mainly for educational purposes. Option 3 can be found all over forums like LS1Tech and the like. And is always being done these days. Most 3rdgen guys on here are crying out for a properly balanced well built 303ci build all the time. and i think Atilla can finally shed some light on how a well built 305 should move.

Doom86

#2 no doubt.

Nice thread don't know how I missed this one. Took me 2 cups of coffee to take it all in.

Reading the original post it was clear this would be a troll-fest not only do we get to endure them because of the 305 but now the GM vs Ford fiasco.

[SOAPBOX]
If GM never smelted a larger block then 305 we would all be bashing people for building 268's and running 9's in our 305's. Given we don't live in a void and there is options people will always want bigger. You can play this game until the banks empty. It just seems so difficult for most ("bird boy", ect) to stray away from the "fastest ever" Illusion and understand fast enough isn't radical.

Find 1 well built 305 base that doesn't run ATLEAST mid-low 13's and I'll apologize. You get out of it what you put into it. I can tell you 4-5 members off the top of my head who've taken a 305 into 11's and 12's but it's a waste of time because arrogant, ignorant, minded breeds think because their 305 was slow that everyone's is. [/SOAPBOX]

Given you already have SBC mounts for the foxbody and it's not something you intend to keep in there it's seems the way to go. Also it's a more realistic build if anyone wants to "copy" it for their F-Body. The "cheap" LSx that people talk about don't seem to exist where I live either but you can get SBC any time.

Have you considered doing stage 3 porting on the Vortecs and seeing how the 305ci likes 270cfm? Or do they require larger valves? (assuming so)

Do the HSR if you still have access to dyno tune with-out having to hand the man all your money.

Doom86

Damn it I started to reply got a phone call and there was 5 post in the mean time and I missed the boat!

Good luck with whatever you do though it sounds fun.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

A couple of questions and a couple of points:

The LQ9 pistons you referenced are hypereutectic. You aren't planning PA with this set-up, correct? There has been a lot of talk about turbos, for instance, since your original post, but that wasn't the intent, if I'm reading this correctly.

2nd, you didn't say in the original post that these are street combos. You mentioned dyno and drag strip, but what I've gathered since is those are for reference only, not the intended use (not sure why anyone would build a dyno car, although a dyno engine for Engine Masters can have its rewards).

Now, the points:

If you're building a street car, a 305 can make sense. When I did heads/cam/exhaust/stall on my LG4, it was a completely different car. Of course, I can say the same when I went with the 350 shortblock...

About LSx and TGO: We have an LTx and LSx engine swap subforum because of its popularity. I'm a member on tech, and I can say the useful information I get from there is typically 2-4 years old. I'll take TGO any day. Certainly the thirdgen LSx information is a lot better here (although it could be argued a lot of the engine-specific information has tech origins).

At any rate, Atilla started this thread with a specific purpose. Since Board rules (and basic courtesy) dictate staying on topic, what say we stick to his premises and leave the rest at home?

Atilla the Fun

Looks like I shoulda gave combo 2 more time to catch up in votes.
I want the 305 Mustang. And building combo 2 would provide the correct short block assembly for combo 1.
I have the '84 Trans Am. I sold the real LQ9 out of it to pay for Chemo. I also sold the real TEA heads at the same time. I want to finish doing the 511 big block with Patriot heads. But the Trans Am should be getting the LQ4. The 511 is not a real street engine, I'd be afraid to leave it in any parking lot for more than 5 seconds, it'll get 1 mpg highway, 2 gpm city, and won't corner the way I need it to.
What's that old saying about the cobbler's ( shoe maker's ) children are always barefoot?
I want to do the 305 Mustang.
I'll do both. The LQ4 in the Trans Am, the 305 in the Mustang.

TxTtopZ

Actually with Dooms vote it can, and you can't help it would take a reader a while to read through 3 pages of info.
You asked me to furnish a turbo 305 thread, well I can't. As a matter of fact I can hardly furnish any 305 threads! That was my point in choosing #2. I dont care what people say about the 305. The VERY bottom line is most people up the cubes in a street car as much as they can without getting into it being a tedious process because on the street there isnt a magic bore to stroke ratio that will produce more power or anything else. Its just not radical enough to matter in most cases. That being said it doesnt change the fact that thats what came in the car in the first place, and the HSR build is what A LOT of us want to do to our own cars, not just read or hear about it. The Lq9 guys who can say the same have many other places to get that info while the 305 needs all the help it can get!
Speaking on that, since more people actually voted for a 305 than the LQ it should be the 305 but I wont exhaust myself too much more on the fact the LQ won. Just the fact is if there was only the HSR and the LQ was there and no "option 1" then who would have it?
Anyway, the LQ does have the better engine fact going for it, and it will go faster NO DOUBT. And drive better... so I will look forward to seeing what happens either way.

Atilla the Fun

Yeah. On LS1tech, tirefryinS10 got his T76 LM7 'stang into the high 9s with 100,000 mile original LM7 pistons, running about 15 psi.
I think the SpeedPros should hold 13.5 psi, with intercooling, in my LQ.

TxTtopZ

Post some pics of your brakes in the for sale section, let us lay some eyes on it.

NY3RDGEN

So a 5.0 Bow Tie Fox Bodys a coming ?

TxTtopZ

I used to hate the 305. I had multiple third gens with it and calling jegs or summit absolutely sucked! I was under the impression that it would never be a nice running car and that GM had made a mistake. That recently changed when I bought this car

It had the anemic 4.6 non pi (npi) and an auto. 281 ci! It was slow, but I modded it anyway. Adding PI heads, JBA headers, BBK X pipe, Flow dumps, 3.73's, J modded the trans, SCT FC3 tuner, Professional Products chinese intake with upper, a 75mm throttle body and mac cold air with conical filter. With just 281 ci and an auto (4r70w) it ran a 13.3! 15.1 to a 13.3! and it drove nice. With TPI there is NO DOUBT in my mind, a 305 can run a 12, run just as good as the ford did and still get decent gas mileage. For those who say "yeah but it was SOHC" SO WHAT, the cams were stationary as far as timing goes! NO variable timing devices! So basically it was just more crap to do when doing the HCI. This is why I am willing to give the 305 a chance. A high 12, in a nice car, with nothing but a cheap HCI is something anyone can respect.
That car above would beat a cat back x piped Mach 1 5 speed from a roll or dig by a car. Before saying big deal, how many of you out there that have a stock 3rd gen would like to do that? WITHOUT SWAPPING ENGINES!

Guest

Direct-bolt-on 12" rotors for $500? I hereby commit, sight unseen. Will there be upgrade rotors, with cross drilling or some such? I realize it would add to the cost, but adapting the Z06 brakes require hub and spindle mods, plus 17" wheels.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

I love the LS so that gets my vote

Anything else would be uncivilized!

Atilla the Fun

At this point, you'll have to wait, for 2 reasons.
1) the prototypes look kinda scary after the cutting and welding. The final versions will be 1-piece steel.
2) Chemo makes me sick. I can type, if I don't have to think, but I can't shoot pics. I'll get pics, including pics of the CNC mill. But not for a few days yet.

Drac0nic

What's worth noting about this is that the bore to strokes on these is even smaller than that of a 305. at 3.552 and 3.543 that is nearly a perfect 1:1 bore to stroke ratio (basically square!) so a 305 "should" be able to breath better with less valve shrouding than a 2V modular with all things being equal. That being said I'm sure valve angles etc. played into it but that's another story. If you look at their valves they are smaller as well. 1.45/1.78 exh/in.

TxTtopZ

They are tiny engines, thats for sure. When I got the cylinder heads off I couldnt believe how small the pistons were! I was like "aww, isnt . that . cuuuuute!" goochie goochie gooo! lol
The 305 will do fine. I figure another 40-60hp. 4.6 sohc's are done at about 320rwhp with ported pi's and supporting mods. So given the same amount of mods I think I can match or top that.. I think Atilla's HSR will sure tell the tale of what I (and many others) can expect. Given altitude corrections.

Doom86

Thanks for counting me in Atilla

Sorry for being winded on the soapbox but years of reading 305 misinformation gets the best of me.

TxTopZ that mustang is really nice looking and that's saying a lot because I really don't like them. It's not even the Ford Chevy thing they just always look and drive like Escorts with V8's to me.

I really like the 305 mustang idea though it would open and close a LOT of discussion on the 302 vs 305 debates among other things. Maybe we'll all learn something too, who knows? I'd like to see what you can do with the thing though that's for sure.

TxTtopZ

Thanks! I sold it, for the Z28 thats sitting in my garage. I love third gens, and my wife said I had to pick a car, and that was it. Keep in mind I had bought and sold 6 cars in the past 4 years trying to find what I like... I picked a third gen. It IS and ALWAYS will be my all time fav. I love having a dream car I can afford!

Atilla the Fun

When I first learned about the Ford Modular, I couldn't believe t. It only took GM 3 years to kill the 267 because if the problems that result from a 3.50" bore and a 3.48" stroke. The matching V6/90, the 200, only made it 2 years.
GM discards it, so Ford decides it's worthy? Proof of the inferiority of people who like Fords. I hate all Fords that aren't the 5.0 Fox Mustang. I hate ALL ford parts that aren't the 351W block, the 9" axle, or the 8.8" IRS. EVERYthing else that Ford's ever done has been surpassed, at some time or other, in some way or other, by Chevrolet. Same goes for everything else automotive on this planet. The new ZR1 is Gods own chariot. Or would be, if they'd swap to cathedral-port heads and widen all 4 wheels by 1".
That fact given, I can now step off my soap box and go back to bed.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah this may be the case for the LTx/LSx subforum but not necessarily the other way around. Alot of guys hang out in all subforums regardless of engine since they all may have started with sbc and then moved on to LSx. But not really the other way around, i dont hang on the LSx board much, thats what other sites are for IMO. I have a 99 TA so I use other forums for sources on that car. Same way if I had a LSx thirdgen.

To add to this, combo 3 isnt really anything exciting when it comes to the lsx world. This wouldnt get much attention on tech since its not a 240 duration, .650 lift cam with 245cc heads, or its not a blown combo that will run 8's. Heads/cam combos are a dime a dozen there and most everything has been done. Here it gets more attention because not alot of thirdgen guys have lsx experience.
I think that build being more street oriented would do great in the corvette world. Those guys love smaller cammed torquey street motors. I have a hard time convincing guys to go big over there

TxTtopZ

Atilla, the 305 HSR combo can wait, no biggie. I will be doing something like this in the next 2 to 3 months but, my options will include either a 305, 334, or 355 modified tuned port.
I can imagine the 305 stroker will get the votes, but then again who knows.

Doom86

If funds are tight cutting out the HSR would save loads of money, more so if you already have a carb and intake. I was under the impression that you already had it when I suggested using it.

The brakes sound awesome though so you shouldn't have any problems making money for it if you're set on it.

Stroking a 305 is really not something I would EVER do unless I woke up one morning with more money then sense. The only reason I can even advocate punching it over is because Atilla is a machinist. If the 305 I'm working on now needed bored over I would search for something else because bigger motors are a dime a dozen and I'm paying the man to do the work for me. Why not spend the extra 50$ for more cubes when doing a full rebuild? I'm all for working with what you got but you have to draw the line some where.

Atilla the Fun

I'm not doing a 334 unless someone else pays. I can get all the '87-up truck 350s I want, for $150 each, complete. Even the cheapest crank for a 334 / 383 is more than that, plus balancing.
A 60-over 305, with 3.75" stroke, is a 339.5, call it a 340. You're still 21 cubes down on a 60 over 350, which is 360.4, and you're still more than $100 worse off with the 340, plus the valve shrouding.
An extreme effort 305 would put filler in the water jackets, have a 3.875" bore, a 4.00" stroke, and be 377.4 cubes.
It could do 450 horses, naturally aspirated, with stage 1 Vortec heads and a barely-legal cam. Figure the same number for the torque. 450.
But the cost!
Still, it would have "5.0L" cast behind the left head, so it could be stealthy. I know of a stock-looking, external-balance, 6.75" damper, so that wouldn't give it away.

Atilla the Fun

I have a Vortec intake, but it's for combo 1, because it does have EGR, but doesn't have the flow to match virgin Vortec intake ports. SDPC is selling it new for $290.
Oh wait, combo 1 was 081s. well,...

Atilla the Fun

Over where? Which forum / forums?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

corvetteforum loves to do somewhat milder cammed setups on big inch stroker motors than what alotof fbody guys run. But alot of corvette based forums are like that. I think digital corvettes is like that but I havent been there in awhile. I mean some guys there go nuts with street setups but majority of them are conservative. 216 deg cams on 383 AFR 195 head motors. Stuff like that. Should run well but I may have gone a different way...

On ls1tech you know the mentality there is huge cam or go home. All those builds are more strip builds. But I've seen some vette guys on tech that are conservative as well.

Now with the big port LS3/L92 type heads, cams in the 230 deg range on 403-416+ inch LS3's are doing well. 500whp is possible and thats not really a huge cam on a setup that large. Must be the head design, it doesnt want alot of duration or late intake closing points.

TxTtopZ

I am most likely going to keep the original engine in the car. TPI 335 has nothing but a cam and the stoker kit which is $600.00 and includes everything from crank, flex plate, pistons, rods, bearings, etc. and runs 13.4! FULL WEIGHT. Thats not bad at all! Its not for sure, as I will probably do a .030" over instead. But like I said, its just to keep the original engine in the car, which can earn show points. I don't care about making the car scream. It's just a street car. I like the idea actually. I like a supercharger more!

TxTtopZ

I have a vortec 350 sitting in my garage floor. The only reason I like the idea of staying with the 305, is because I am staying with TPI. I really dont agree with the way even modified TPI chokes 350's and 383's. 305 do get more from it. Just a thought.

Atilla the Fun

L92 / LS3 heads have been "proven" on Ls1Tech, to perform okay with single pattern cams, but really, they want about 18-20 degrees of split.
Give them that, and a short-runner fabricated intake, they'l love really late intake closings. Just be sure to use real LS7 titanium intake valves, and 26918s with a custom rev kit, or go solid roller.
L92 / Ls3 heads suck, because the MAST replacements, while $3500, can do another 50 cfm, with the same size valve, and shrink the port volume by about 20 cc.
GM should buy rights to those intake port shapes, then phase that in next year, optional on all 6.2L engines, plus cancel every LSx that isn't 6.2L. 799 heads should be standard on all 6.2s.
and cancel any and every GM model that can't accept a 6.2
That way, everyone on earth could have their cake and eat it too. Ford Mustangs suddenly wouldn't sell. Neither would Ferraris, Bugattis or Koenigseggs. Kia and Hyundai would die within seconds. Gangbangers would get 40-hour jobs. Summers would be cooler, winters would be warmer. Gas would soon be $0.89/gal. Cash would grow on trees. Mosquitoes would die off instantly. Cats would transform into big dogs. Coke would turn into Pepsi. Politicians would be honest. The recession would end. Congress would get paid equal to the smallest Social Security checks, and have 2-year term limits. Minivans and jacked up 4x4 pickups would be illegal. Speed limits would go up until the point where Miatas could drift. Police cars would become neon pink. Is all that not motivation enough?

TxTtopZ

I think thats the first joke ive ever seen from Atilla
someone get a calendar and write this down!

Atilla the Fun

In my best builds thread, the 383 makes 457 HP at 6200 rpm, and 531 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm, with long-runner TPI. Can a 305 or 334 do that?
BTW, the carbureted 383, with the RPM AirGap, and a way huger cam, does 449 HP at 5600 rpm, and 486 tq at 4200.

Atilla the Fun

I get like that when I'm way tired but not sleepy.

TxTtopZ

Ive only seen builds like that in the magazines, and I havent seen that post yet... Everyone else with 350's and 383's is getting 285-340rwhp. Which sounds close... and "NO" the 305 wont do that. But I guess I am just being hard headed and wanting to believe what I want to... lol You know how it is when you want to do something.