raith

Ok, before i get started, let me ensure everyone who reads this, I fully understand that i could do more with a Gen 1 SBC, an LTX or an LSX. I also know that i will probably receive several negative comments about the 305, and how it is best suited to be a boat anchor, coffee table, etc... I am, however, determined to prove that the 305 is not the junk motor that most people think it is. I have done some research, and stumbled across an article from the January 2007 issue of Popular Hotrodding on a 305 build they did (here is the link for anyone who wants to read it, http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...s/viewall.html ). I have based my build plans on the same basic setup they were using, with some adjustments. In the article, their final result was a 372 horsepower 305, and that was using off-the-shelf aftermarket parts.

The motor, after it is finished and dyno tested, will be going into my 1984 Recaro Edition Trans Am, backed by a Tremec T56 manual transmission.


-What I'm proposing: A 500-525 horsepower fully built Carb'ed 305. (insert snickering, laughing, and 305 bashing comments here)

-My Plan: It consists of the following parts (subject to change assuming i can find parts better suited to the end goal)

-Block: completely stock 305 iron block from my 92 Camaro.


-Rotating Assembly: New 3.48" stroke crankshaft, new 5.700" connecting rods, new flat-top pistons, all standard size, no overbore, and no upstroke.


-Heads: 185cc intake runner Vortec Heads. Heads will be milled down by approximately .030" to reduce combustion chamber size to 58cc and in conjunction to the pistons, i should be running 10.2:1 compression (roughly). They will be running 1.95" intake valves and 1.5" exhaust valves, Comp Cams Elite Race dual springs.
A word on the heads, the Vortec heads from GM have an intake flow of roughly 233 cfm, this is, proportionately speaking, the equivalent of running a set of 290+ cfm intake flow heads on a 383 small block. running the 1.95/1.5 inch valves will keep shrouding to a minimum, but still allow enough flow into the cylinders for decent power.


-Camshaft: I am going to be running a custom grind cam. 276/282 total duration, 232/238 duration at .050" lift, .492"/.492" valve lift (with 1.6:1 rocker arms the valve lift would jump to .525"/.525") I will be running Hydraulic roller lifters, and 1.5:1 full roller rocker arms.


-Intake Manifold: I will probably run either a Victor Jr. or Super Victor single plane Intake Manifold for the top end power i'm looking for. I have looked into both dual and single plane, and the single plane seems a better fit for the build. Though, I am still torn on this, as I have been looking at both the Victor's and the RPM Air Gap units...


-Carburetor: Holley 770CFM Ultra Street Avenger Carb (with black anodized metering blocks of course... since its going in a black car)... Electric choke, vacuum secondaries.


If anyone has any questions, comments, or any input at all, please feel free to comment!

NathanLewis

yeah, build it first, then talk.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'd get these heads worked over abit because you will likely need abit more flow for 500hp in a 305. Have someone do some port work to get some extra flow.

305 circle track guys make 450-525 hp all the time with 305's. They turn 7000+ rpm peaks so you will need to do alot to the valvetrain to get this to work. Hyd roller with morel lifters and proper cam design will get it done but solid roller would work better.
Use 7/16" rocker studs. Good rocker arms.

I've talked to my cam guy about doing something like you discussed here, I wanted a 305 that would turn 7500+ rpm but having problems finding a head to make it work. Need atleast a 2.0" cross sectional area, likely closer to 2.1", and you need to do this with a valve no bigger than 1.94" really since things get shrouded quickly in the small bore.

You can notch the cylinder wall to gain more clearance or you can do this trick if you have some money to throw into the build. Take the block and have it sleeved but offset the bores 0.060" I believe off centerline. Shifting the bores like this will put the intake valve more in the center of the cylinder and allow more flow! Less shrouding. Interesting trick when done right but it needs to be done by someone with alot of experience sleeving blocks.

Cam looks good, about the duration you'll need but not sure its enough lift. Hard to say, you cant get too much lift with larger valves anyway. Looks very aggressive to have a 276 deg advertised lobe and 232 deg at .050. Havent seen anything like that. Most are in the 280 range to get 230-233 deg.

Good luck, it can be done. 450 shouldnt be to hard but the heads need to be worked over well.

raith

Thanks for the input on the heads! I was definitely going to be looking at gasket matching at a minimum, and I'll look into getting the bore offset. i have no doubt that there are circle track guys that run 450+, but those engines are built strictly for racing, and generally if they break, they arent too upset. I on the other hand am trying to be as careful as possible about being reckless with this build, (if that makes any sense).

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Just spend money on good heads/good cam/valvetrain package if you want it to live. Skimp there and its bound to fall apart.

raith

thats the plan, good Vortec heads, Comp Elite Race dual springs, and a custom grind cam that i'm waiting to hear back from Comp about.

EDIT: just got the cam specs back from Comp... this isnt exactly what i was after, but it will actually work just as well for what i was planning... Duration seat to seat: 281/287. Duration @ .050" 230/236. LSA 110, Valve lift .510/.520

The Devastator

I know you're set on a 305 block but here is a very good alternative.
Use any 350 or 327 block with a .020" overbore and a 3.0" stroke crank. That yields 304.6164 cubic inches. A .030" overbore gets you 306.1338 Cubic inches. It would still be a 305. Most people don't know the late model 396s were actually 402 cubic inches. They kept calling those 396s.

With a 4 inch bore block you can use aftermarket heads with larger valves and that will seriously help you make your 500 hp goal.

I would recommend using a solid roller cam as said above. Adjusting valve lash is not that much of a pain plus your Naturally aspirated power goal is gonna force you to turn it 7000 rpm. Getting a hydraulic valvetrain up there for a street car is not worth the cost.

I may run this combo through the ol dynosim when I get to the house and see how realistic this.

Have you already swapped the T56 into your transam? You'll have to do that first unless you have built trans in your car now. A gm 700R4 won't put up with what you described.

I have always thought the 305 should have never been put into production when they could have easily destroked the 350 into a 327 or 302 (which ran waaaaay better with tpi. I built one.) The whole purpose behind the smaller bore 305 blocks was to reduce NOx emissions and get better fuel economy. We all found 305 cars swapped with 302s, 327s, or 350s got better economy.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Poor choice. No reason to run a vacuum secondary carb on an all-out SBC. (Yes, a 305 is a Gen I SBC.)

In order to use 770 CFM, you'd have to spin a 305 to 8700 RPMs. I don't think you'll be doing that.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Not sure what your point is. They also called them "400".

If you're saying there isn't a significant difference between 5.0's - 302, 305, 306, etc.; it's more significant that there isn't any particular external appearance difference between a 262 and a 434. Who cares what you call it?

The Devastator

Point I was trying to make is if he was married to 305 cubic inches there were options open to him. That and pretty much what you said lol.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Seemed to be more married to the factory block. I could be wrong.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Whenever someone starts a 305 thread theres always someone claiming against it. THe OP is clearly dead set on doing the 305. I suggest going for it, lets not change his goals. It is doable but not likely as cheap as a 4" bore. We all know that but hotrodding is about making what you have go fast.

raith

I appreciate all the input. I am somewhat set on using the stock 305 block, even though i know there would be other ways to build a 305. I have no doubt that it will probably cost me a bit more than building a 350, but i'm not too worried about it, the TA wont be done for a while, so it gives me time to get her ready for the new motor.

[EDIT:]
OK, well, my timeline for getting the Trans Am up and running just got moved ahead. i'll be bringing her out to Texas at the end of the month, and i'm going to try to pick up the 305 from Arkansas on my way back here...

also, the build specs have changed a bit, going to be building the 305 as a carbureted supercharged motor, mechanical secondaries (trying to keep the electric choke because the TA doesn't have a manual choke in the car), still aiming for that 500 horsepower goal, but if i dont hit it. thats ok with me... lol

Nokiaspiffy

I think it would be a good idea to look at circle track boards. Most people here have written off the 305 entirely, I too once wanted to build an all out 305, but after years of peer pressure I finally went the easy way out with extra cubes. Good luck with your build!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I'm pulling for ya, good luck...

SDTransAM

iTrader: (5)

Do it up. I would love to build my little 305 into a high revving 400 hp beast. That has been my plan since I got the car.

lethaldomestics

in my experience i have less issues with the 305. dam 350 always gave me problems. as long as you dont beat the snot out of it you will be fine. I have a built 305 in a chevy pick up and i am happy with it. Good luck

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Go for it. If ya got some $$ to spend heres a good plan for a nice built 305

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...10-second.html

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Can't wait to see this, it should be pretty sweet, think of putting a stroker in the 305?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If your building this with a blower now then you dont have to get very selective or detailed on parts to make 500hp... its a walk in the park with a mild heads/cam package and some boost.

gbeaird

iTrader: (1)

Awwwww, it's turning into a blower motor. I was interested in seeing this. You can make decent power out of a 305. We're putting 280 at the wheel with a mild cam and L98 heads, and we've beat on it for more than 10 years now with little more (so far) than a broken pushrod (probably due to poor valve lash adjustment when we added the roller rockers). Our 92 B4C has run 13.99 factory stock. It would be neat to see how much you can get out of these things with a few mild mods.

raith

funny how things change when things open up... i will still be building the 305... (possibly more than one just because i can pull them from the junkyard cheap... and there are at least 3 3rd gen TA's with 305's in them out there... one is an 84 and is carbed, the other 2 are TBI)
and most likely the first one will be NA.

I am however "jumping on the bandwagon" so to speak and picking up a 5.3L LS motor complete minus intake for 200 bucks. i can get the carb intake and control module, a 750 carb, and the cam i want to run in it, and have less than 1200 in it, and it should be pushing between 425-450 horse, and roughly 395-410 torque.

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

For the LS, depending on what kind of use you want from it, you should consider a 770 Holley street avenger, they are very streetable and if you want more fuel earlier (drag/racing) just quick change out the secondary spring to make it open up sooner, and I love these 305 threads, I think people that actually have a 305 in their car when they first buy it realize that they do have plenty of potential for a very reasonable budget

raith

I most likely will get the 770 street avenger. I prefer Holley carbs on chevy motors anyway... they just seem to work better in my opinion

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

They are a great company and I think a lot of their products are very high quality with a really affordable price, good luck with all of this, I'd love to see the results of this 305

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Why are you so stuck on vacuum secondaries?

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

He said he was using a mechanical secondary on the 305, vaccuum secondaries are good for street use

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Vacuum secondaries aren't good for street use. They're good for limited traction vehicles (like tire-limited race classes) and tow vehicles.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Picture the following scenario:

You build this thing, with a blower and whatever kind of secondaries with black-anodized fuel bowls and however much other "Im gonna" monkey-spank you can throw on there. Let's just pluck a $$number$$ out of the air, and say, it takes $4000 to build it. Doesn't matter what the # is, we just need one to start out with.

You get all done, it runs great, you love it.

You pull up to a stop light, and the guy next to you has an identical car. You ask him if he wants to go and he's game for it. Oooooppppsssss.... the light changes, and his car puts about 3 lengths on you before you get to 2nd gear, and by the time you catch up to him, he's already been sitting at the next red light for half a minute waiting for it to change.

He seems like a talkative d00d so you ask him what he's got in there, is it stock, etc.

Turns out, he has an identical motor built out of the identical same blower, carb, and assorted other monkey-spank; except, he spent $50 to get a 350 core at the very start of his, so he has LESS money in his motor than yours, because HIS INTERNAL PARTS all cost less, being more common. So he actually only spent $3900 building his, and he just HANDED YOU YOUR A$$ ON A SILVER PLATTER.

Now: how smart does sinking all that money into a 305 look NOW???

And YES, IT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU, except it will be a FAR LESSER 350 that will be able to pwn you. You'll feel even sicker as you watch the tail lights recede into the distance.

trafficlightguy

Dont let them rib you I built a 305 to push 300hp with a few mods and long tube headers I didn't even do a chip yet

Homer

iTrader: (1)

That sounds like a very concise version of years of wisdom & experience. Would you elaborate on that for us? I think we can learn something here.

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

I agree, can you explain? This is just my opinion but I think they're better because you can change the spring to open later which results with less fuel use and better mpg for street driving, and if you're going to the track for the day you change the spring to make the secondaries open EARLIER, which results in more fuel so you can effectively use all your power, am I wrong? Or is there just more reason to use a mechanical?

Dilys95

yeah, build it first, then talk.

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

And here come the **** talkers, if you aren't open minded to other peoples opinions and beliefs, a forum is not the place for you

Atilla the Fun

five7kid's right. Since we're all veering off topic, I'll note that vac sec is easier to tune, for those new to tuning carbs. On a 140 HP 305, with 2.73:1 gears, the mec sec isn't going to gain anything anyway.

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Oh ok, I just thought vac were better for street because the secondaries don't open at a set position like mechanical, you can change them to open earlier or later depending on when you'll need more fuel

raith

ok, just a quick update on the build status. yes i am still going to be doing it, but i got an offer for a 5.3LS motor that i couldnt pass up, so I am going to use it to fuel my need for the relatively high powered Trans Am. with a cam swap, an edelbrock RPM LS carb intake and an 850 double pumper I should be able to get the power i'm looking for.

also going to be bolting up a t56 to the 5.3, so it will be that much more fun.

the 305 is still going to be built, but i still need to plan a bit more, and research more. plus i'm going to have to find a shell to drop said motor into.

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Yea you'll get the power you're looking for with that, but is an 850 gonna be too much for that? I've seen 383s (6.3?) run perfect with a 750, there's a formula to find out what you'll need, then you would usually take that number and go the next size up, usually 50 more for street and 100 more for a performance application, I'm not too educated on carbs and besides the formula obviously none of this is fact, but just more of my personal logic, but then again, logic will never get you anywhere when dealing with a third gen haha

Mystyk_Wynds

Ok you ignoranuses that knock the 305 are really starting to annoy me. So to put you down into your place, and nail you there. Here are some interesting facts that YOU ALL seem to forget.
Money invested vs. money returned. Fact 305/350 SHARE the SAME crank, heads, rods, bearings, lifters, pushrods, rockers, valves, valve springs, retainers, heads, exhaust (headers or manifolds), accessories, motor mounts, and they can even share the same cams.
Only difference is the piston, flexplates/flywheel and engine block (Yes their are slight difference in the design).
So it he puts $4k into a 305, wheres the problem? At the most he will blow it up, break a rod, maybe a crank?
I figure that even if he did, he can STILL salvage at the least 75% of his investment.
if he breaks a rod or a crank, wippity effin do dah. He can still replace that part, and bolt every g*dd*mn part into and onto a 350, if he so chooses, and amazingly he aint out s**t, now is he?????????
Just because you dont, cant, or wont do it, doesn't mean it can't or he shouldn't do it. Now give him the answers he asks for, and not you nearsighted opinion of why you wouldn't and he shouldn't do...Or just clam it.
For the record I have in fact built a 350 rwhp 2.5L (3.0l) tech4 iron duke with an 8k redline using only 55% of the fuel of a 350sbc...Why? "Because I effin can!!" and I was told its not feasible and I shouldn't do it.

Atilla the Fun

Great intro, good luck with that. As to us being ignoramuses, we speak from varied experiences. Modern engines doing well with small bores is a whole different animal from the 305, you do not remotely grasp the difference it makes to SBC efficiency as it pertains to specific output. The only way a 305 makes sense for a big-HP build is as a disposable, turbocharged, Junkyard Jewel -style build. As to your claims about your own engine, it also has the large 4" bores of a 350, and for it to be doing all you claim, you had to have invested over a grand in a rare, used SuperDuty block. Production blocks from Fieros and S-10s won't do what you're claiming. Also, this was a dead thread, not to be revived for an irrelevant rant by someone new to the forum. As before, good luck with that.

Mystyk_Wynds

Now I do understand that he is never going to see the same power levels. But that doesn't mean everyone should knock him for trying.
And second, tell the dirt track racers a stock 2.5 block can't handle 400 hp. With those blocks there are 2 main factors, block flex and main caps. I had discussed in the s10 forums how to stop that. My knowledge was based on how 2 strokes used sleeves with three main purposes, one of the most important was block flex.

wonderbudd

Wow with all that said and done i agree with mystik, go fourth and do as you please,more power to the 305 when its all said and done. Seems like people took his idea and turned it into a no one should modify a 305 forum. More negativity then encouragement,

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Is build thread every going to be updated again, or is that pretty much it...?

Plan lol? Are you joking...?

yaj15

iTrader: (3)

I would like to see this project too. Something that I have thought about is making a high reving 305 and put it in a car that was more oriented towards road-racing and just see what it would do if it was matched with a mini-ram intake.

No I know it wouldn't make as much power as a 350 or larger cubic inch motor that had the same category of performance parts to back it up but it would be different and it would surprise a lot of people.

Mystyk_Wynds

Thank you wonderbudd and Yaj15.
Everyone seems to constantly be forgetting that when you build a 305, unless your doing major block modifications, you can still use those parts on a 350 and recupe most of your financial investment. Really the only thing you would need to change are the pistons and sometimes the cam (year of block), thats it.
I've seen, 283, 265 and 262 (4.3l V8)lay down a world of surprising hurt. And why, for the same reason of the 305, because its not main stream, and everyone looks down on them.

yaj15

iTrader: (3)

Yeah thats something that I have thought about. I don't have the funds to do it right now though.

One of the threads thats very inresting is about the L69 1985 IROC's in the History/Orginality thread. I am fan of thirdgens obviously and I like the LB9 and L98 engines the most. I also like the L69 305 as well.

Lets get clear here. The L69 is a GM-factory-hotrodded LG4 305. I think the L69 dosen't get the credit it deserves within the thirdgen community. Keep in mind that the LB9 was born from the lessons learned on the L69 - the engine that really signaled that performance was back in the 1980's for GM F-Body fans.

Especially for the 1985 model year the LB9 could be viewed as the L69 with TPI fuel injection on it. Both were running around 9.5:1 compression and a simular style cam based off of the L82 350 from the Corvette. The L69 cars also go the larger exhaust that formed the basis for the TPI single cat exhaust. Larger outlets on the manifolds, larger cat, larger intermediate pipe, and larger inlet and outlets on the factory muffler as well.

The later 1989-1992 LB9/T-5/G92 cars as well as the L98/700r4 cars are no slouch in the performance department - especially when proper modifications are done. The L98 cars only upped the performance potential offered from the LB9 and really opened things up once you start making aftermarket modifications. People tend to forget that both the 305 and the 350 are part of the Gen 1 small block family. A lot of people have moved on to the LS world and thats fine, nothing wrong with that.

When the Gen 5 motors come out they will be smaller than the LS motors (Gen 1 - Gen 4 LS-style motors, the LS1 thorugh the LS9) that have come before them and will have direct fuel injection. At this point you could already say that the LS1 (as good as it is and I'm not going to knock a GM motor here because they all can be tweaked and impoved on) is an old-school LS motor.

From what I have read the 7th gen Corvette that comes out in 2014 (which will introduce the new Gen 5 LS-style motors with direct fuel injection) will have a base motor that is smaller than the current LS3 (will be less than 6.0L in displacement) yet will produce more power than the LS3 does now with the optional valved exhaust. So the base motor will make more than 436hp and meet all the new emissions and fuel economy requirements. That's very impressive and I don't care if you are an LS fan or not. A street car that has that amount of power and still gets a factory warranty is an impressive feat.

The Gen 1 small block has over 50 years of development and history so it won't be put out to pasture any time soon. The Gen 1 small block is also one of the world's most popular engines and GM's own crate engine sales can prove that. I know GM sells their own LS motors too. But I am sure (by a wide margin) most of their crate engine revenue comes from folks buying the ZZ383, 383HT, ZZ4 350, 330hp 350 crate motor, 290hp 350 crate motor and the Gen 1 or Gen 0 350 crate motor.

Keep in mind that the ZZ4 is a GM-factory-hotrodded L98 motor with Corvette style 113 aluminum heads. Also GM's own fuel injected 502 crate motor uses the stock 48mm throttle body from the TPI cars. That's right that 502 cubic inch, 502hp, 567 foot pounds of torque big block motor is feed from the same throttle body that made its debut on the 1985 LB9 and 1985 L98 small block motors.

Still the stock L69 is rated at 190hp and 240 pound feet of torque. It's not the world's most powerful car but, combined with the T-5 and 3.73 gears the L69 could more than hold its own during the time it was produced and could easily keep up with and beat many 1960's-1970's era muscle cars. We all know that thirdgens are some of the best handling cars made to start with so the handling performance provided by the Z28's,IROC's, Trans-Am's, Formulas, GTA's etc. also get the nod in terms of peformance.

Still after looking at that thread and stumbling across this dead one ha ha got me thinking. What would a modern day L69 305 be composed of? I think this would answer the original posters question. That's why I brought up the road racing aspect or just a high-reving street screammer. There is no getting around the fact that you are going to have to spin the 305 up to get comperable power of larger engines. So since we have to wind the motor up lets take advantage of the lower rotating mass speed parts that would be required to wind that sucker up there.

Mystyk you are right. A lot of the components could also be used in a 350 cubic inch motor later down the road. Still I would like to see a high strung 305. Ha ha that motor could be put in a stock looking 1983-1984 Z28 or 1985 IROC and dressed up with the stock L69 high output badges - that would make a good thirdgen sleeper!

A 7,000 rpm screamer 305 with the aftermarket performance parts to make it live at those higher rpm's and the drivetrain components to back it up. What would it take to get a 305 to make good power and torque and have an operating range that would max out around 6,500rpm-7,000rpm? I was thinking that the peak torque for this motor would come in the 4,500rpm-5,000rpm range like many of the LS-style motors do.

Staying true to the L69 roots I would like to see a carbed version of this motor.
I would also like to see this same motor with a mini-ram style fuel injected intake so that us fuel injected folks would be satisfied to.

Are there other ways to make more power yes - but thats not the point here. We are already 'out-casts' because we like 3rdgens to begin with so no need to worry about people pleasing by picking the 'right' or 'correct' muscle car.

This would be very different motor build and not to many people would be able to say that yes I can chase down LS motors and yes I am running an old school Gen 1 small block that only displaces 305 cubic inches ha ha!

Mystyk_Wynds

Well gm never really Hot Rodded the 305, at least not like the 283,327, or 350. But it would be nice to see if they applied the modern tech to a 305, what would ppl really think of it.
Yeah I think a 7k rpm 5.0L would seriously turn heads. route the headers in 180 fashion so it sounds like ferrari. if anything you'd get a serious WTF factor.

HotRodFiend

i dont know how old this thread is but im building a 305 myself. i want it to push 250. because i know thats not too hard with stock heads. mostly the motor will look beautiful and kick some *** round town. however if you look into i think hotrod magazine. they built a 500 hp 305. the thing ate **** on the dyno after a month or two... and you can imagine how often it was taken out or dynoed. one of the problems with building a potent 305 is it needs to get to very high rpms before it makes its top hp. usually if you keep pushing it it will keep going. something about the bore/stroke ratio. so a word of caution. you may be able to make 500hp with a 305. but if you push it often (race much) the motor will probably go the crash n burn route fairly quickly.

yaj15

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I agree. To make the same power as a larger motor with respect to a smaller one you must be willing to wind it up. Especially if you are staying naturally aspirated you must wind that smaller motor up to have the air flow in and out of the engine simular to a larger one.

Just look at NASCAR. Granted thats and extreme example but it proves the point. The motors they use are 358 cubic inches and they are turning 9,000rpm in some of the races. I've seen some articles that say those engines are in the 750hp range. That amount of power would be easier to make with a larger cubic inch engine and it would come on at a much lower rpm. With a larger engine, however, you start having to deal with concerns of weight and overall vehicle balance as it relates to the cars performance. While I love the power that an old school LS6 cast iron block 454 has there is a price to pay with all that weight over the front axle of the car.

I'm not trying to bash the 305 here. I still would like to see a 7,000rpm screamer. It may not be the easiest way to make power but, it would be something very different and very cool. You would really have to be smart and so you homework before building an engine like that to so it would be able to withstand that kind of power at that high rpm level.

Mystyk_Wynds

250 fwhp or rwhp? yep high rpm is matter of weight and balancing. look at F1 cars..Those are 3 liters micro strokes micro bores, but they turn 14-18k and make 600-700hp. Of course both f1 and nascar use titanium parts also.