TORN

iTrader: (17)

Ok I see people asking about the First Injection system and 400 small block so this is my build and swap going into my 88 IROC Z.

Found a 1972 400 virgin block that came out of a Monte Carlo



Cleaned up and ground off all the extra metal from the casting and smoothed the top of the block.




specs:

Bore: 4.165
stroke: 3.875
rod length: 6.00 Manley rods

Ohio Crankshaft 4340 x 3.875 crank
SRP professional dish pistons

Heads: AFR 210CC
64cc combustion chamber
Springs to handle .650 lift
2.08/1.6 valves



Mike Jones custom cam:
Intake lift: .582
Exhaust lift: .589

Duration:
intake: 240
Exhaust: 242

110 centerline

1.5 rockers

Hydraulic roller



FIRST injection is going on top.

I just had to mock them up to see what this thing will look like.




Got the block clearance for the crank and all the grinding done so it could be sent to the machine shop.




UPS showed up with lots of goodies....




I got a smokin deal on Brand New, T&D shaft mount setup. Custom Anodized to Red/Black.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

balanced rotating assembly showed up.





After crank showed up and Block came back from the machine shop we could finally start putting this monster together.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Then came the paint.






Push rods and shaft mounted rockers installed.




Had to put the headers on, well just because.

Put intake and gaskets on, valve covers.




Installed the belt and pulley setup that I bought off Austin (BIG_MODS) off the classifieds on here. He build this setup and I love it alot. Bolted it on for mock up.

Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

Looking good! Keep us updated on the build.

I am planning on a 420ci SBC with a FIRST intake also. Looking to buy a DART SHP block with maybe slightly larger AFR heads. Glad someone is trying something similar

I did some calcs before on the FIRST unit with wave harmonics. I think a 420ci engine can handle a 292 degree advertised intake duration just fine. Would have peak torque around 4,150 rpm. Your cam with a 240 duration should produce peak torque at around 4,600rpm for the 3rd wave harmonic. 110 centerline might be a little tough to tune. How are you going to control the fuel injection system? I want to use EFI's 24x coil pack conversion with the LS1 ECU.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

I am going to use that stock 165 ECM and tune with my Autoprom. 110 should be fine with my T56. I will get my idle and part throttle set and swap my MAF to a 3.5 ford MAF sensor that will give me more range. Just like the Blowerworks setup. I will be running 42# BOSCH III injectors.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Nice build. Signing up for the thread.

gp90gta

iTrader: (1)

A 110 LSA should be just fine to tune, though I'm not a big fan of the 165, if it was up to me I would swap to a 730, anyways sweet build.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You may not have enough vacuum or atleast be pretty minimal. I am tuning my 401 with a slightly larger 246 hyd roller .640" but on a 113.5 lsa and its only at 10-11" of hg at the moment . Should be an interesting setup tho! Very curious of the results

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Started pulling the old L98 TPI.













Now just got to pull the k member and a-arms for POR-15 and start prepping the bay for the new paint. I also got poly bushings for the a-arms. I am sticking with the original bright red for the engine bay.

Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

Any updates?

gbayfisher

subscribed, gonna be a nice build.

I have a feeling the FIRST is going to be maxed in stock form. It would be interesting to see the numbers in stock form, then again with some porting/siamesing! looking forward to this one.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Also interested to see how this goes. Any estimates of HP/TQ? Would love to see some timeslips for this!

yaj15

iTrader: (3)

This is a very good thread! That first fuel injection set up is very nice and should perform very well. I would be very intrested in seeing the final horsepower and torque numbers for your set up.

What are the rest of the drivetrain components that you wanted to use?

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Ok this is not the update I wanted to ever put on here. My dad username (Pandin) which has many posts in the DIY tuning section, and has helped many people on this forums. He passed away as a result of a motorcycle accident 6/29/12.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/memo...in-pandin.html

So as a result of the accident this project will be on hold.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Oh my! So sorry for your loss! I remember reading alot of his posts in the DIY section. Very helpful member. RIP

Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

TORN sorry to the hear about your loss. My cousin died in a motorcycle accident just after his 18th birthday. Take some time, your engine will still be there when you are ready.

I took a look at how a FIRST would work on certain sized engines with the right cam to be "matched" for the best tuned effect. Link is here.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...l?ref=esp-link

I thought the FIRST stock has an ID runner size of 1.75" and used that as a starting point on my analysis in the above link. Upon closer examination I noticed that a golf ball would not fit down the runners. Since a golf ball is 1.68" in diameter some porting is required. It does not look like major porting of the runners is required to make a golf ball pass. Mainly just need to do it where the runners bend, this is the pinch point. It doesn't matter too much since the total intake length is what governs where the torque boost effect comes into play with a TPI intake. The intake runner cross sectional area comes into play where you need to have a certain area to feed your motor size.

I have not rerun my numbers with the smaller stock FIRST intake sizing (maybe 1.6" at pinch?) but it looks like a FIRST matches up pretty good on a 400 cubic inch engine and a 280-290ish duration came. This would produce peak torque with the 3rd wave harmonic at around 4,200 rpm. I figure that porting the FIRST intake tubes to 1.78inches with a 292 duration cam would work well on a 422 engine.

I looked at the "ten times the torque article" to try and get a power estimate for my build which is similar to TORN's. From the article I assume they used an older set of TFS heads and looks like engine on dyno was bare bones (with electric water pump). So their results would be best case power levels at the crank. I used their Superram dyno results as a base since the FIRST is very close to the Superrams intake length and size than versus the TPIS big mouth dyno. I graphed the Superram HP and torque values into excel so I could extrapolate what a 420 FIRST combo would make. Say FIRST flows 280cfm stock and 300cfm ported.

I looked at different scenarios for this which are below with the power levels. Attached is an image file showing these graphs. The estimated FIRST would actually have a more pronounced torque hump and less of a flat HP curve but it is close enough. I think the results would be close to scenario #3 (maybe 540hp and 610 TQ?).

1) Stock Superram (on 383 at 240cfm) HP=480@5,600rpm TQ=506@4,100
2) Engine ratio (420/383=1.097) HP=526@5,600rpm TQ=555@4,100
3) Conservative runner flow ratio (280cfm/240cfm=1.167) HP=560@5,600rpm TQ=590@4,100
4) Max runner flow ratio (300cfm/240cfm=1.25) HP=600@5,600rpm TQ=633@4,100

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

thats a good looking build.
what t56 will you be running?

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Thanks everyone. The stock T56 was rebuilt last summer by me and all upgrades were put in, except billet keys. I don't plan to shift it without a clutch.

Those numbers are right in line with the engine builder and my thoughts. Thanks for posting the info. I am curious do you think we are off with the cam specs?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Jones aint missing the cam lol specs look good to me for a 421

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

just make sure your cam is ground with a low Base. that stroke comes to close to a cam with a reg Base..

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

This cars gonna be a monster. In for updates!

1gary

Was torque plates used or the block partially filled??.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Me and my buddy the engine builder had planed to add hard block but after he talked to the machinist that cut the block he said the block was plenty thick and hard enough to not need it.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

oh hey mifbody crew. i dont mind looking through this enginebuild a second time =)

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Very small update. Since my Dad was the master tuner guru with the 165 ECM with MAF I am thinking of switching gears and hooking up the EBL setup from Dynamic EFI and getting rid of the MAF sensor. I also like the fact that I can hook up the T56 reverse lock out to the EBL SFI-6. Doing some checking now to see which one will better fit my needs EBL P4 or EBL SFI-6

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Looks like I will be getting the EBL Flash with port mod.

gbayfisher

Cant go wrong with the EBL, only thing it can't do is run an electronic trans which doesnt matter in your case.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Small update: Gotta get this power to the road, Ram dual disk.








Also degrease and soaped the engine bay with a power washer, made clean up a lot faster.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

i forgot to ask on mifbody but are you painting the engine bay while your at it? if so what are you planning on using?

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Yea after its all sanded down its getting a couple coats on red and a coat of clear. Still got to drop the cross member and A arms they are getting cleaned up and a coat of POR-15. Also going to replace the brake lines and rework the fuel lines so they come up by the firewall.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

spray paint or actual paint?

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Actual real car paint. No rattle can BS. Base coat red (B81) is a urethane I think.

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

I have a 421 with a miniram that made 470rwtq and wasnt fully tuned with exhaust not up to par for the cubes. I expect the next time on the dyno it will be in the 485-490rwtq range, and again thats with a very short runner.

My car had 3.07's the last time out, and a 315/30/18 tire with a treadwear rating of 200.

The reason why I am mentioning this is because the car was a handful (manual trans), and first gear was useless, and I could spin the meats in 2nd as well depending on rpm, and road charactertics.


First how are you going to get this thing to drive straight with the FIRST intake?

Second what are your hp and tq goals at the wheels?

Third. I sold you those AFR's didnt i?

TORN

iTrader: (17)

I am going to send my rims to http://www.weldcraftwheels.com/index-1.html for a treatment after I swap a custom 9inch ford under the back.

Don't have a said goal, but my engine builder is thinking 550 600 hp range & 500+ torq range. I don't know if I will ever have it on a dyno or not, but if I get it tuned and get a chance to dyno it I will.

Yes sir you did. I was hoping to have this project more complete by now but life got in the way. Its fine tho I have a good friend that's going to help and we are not in any hurry.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

What transmission are you running with your 421?
I see you have a 88 but I am sure you got rid of the Doug Nash 4 + 3 you rolling a ZF 6-speed or a T56 6-speed?

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

had the 4+3, but i have a ZF on the garage floor that is going in......

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

I think the numbers may be the opposite. 500 plus hp and tq 550-600. Maybe even more then 600. I am expecting a gain of 35-40 hp with the 220's over the 220's. If i can made 575/575 at the crank then ill be thrilled!!!!!

Time will tell!

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Engine bay is one color again. Now I can start putting this thing back together.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Looks even better now that its had a couple of days dry time.

AutoRoc

iTrader: (1)

WOW nice work. It's a pain in the....back.. sanding all of the nooks and cleaning the dust, etc,etc.. End result is always worth it though. It makes you want to paint the whole car.. I felt that way anyways.

Goodluck on the rest westsider!

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Well I hope come Saturday I am not kicking myself for not test fitting my Hooker long tubes (2210) in the engine bay before coating the K member with POR 15. I am going to drop the motor and headers in and see if anything needs clearanced. Converting the T56 to use the Ram dual disk and push style throw out bearing is slowing things down a little. Just got to get this clutch totally figured out and then I can get this motor installed and start working on the wiring for the EBL flash. I decided to stripe the under coating from the wheel wells and roll on some Herculiner bed liner, should have that done Sunday with pics. Only thing left to clean up and repaint is the front sway bar.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Also got my upgraded injectors from FIC, Bosch III 24# reworked and modified to 42# injectors.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Got the Quarter Master hydraulic throw out bearing ready so I could measure for the proper shim but all in all I think this setup well work much better then the LT1 pull style setup.







Also just as I thought I had to do a little grinding and adjusting on the k member to get the headers to clear but it wasn't much so that is done. Mocked up some other things while the motor was in the bay also. So far everything is fitting with no issues.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Looks great! Keep it up. So can the EBL P4 ECU control the reverse lockout on a T56?

TORN

iTrader: (17)

I was told that by the time I am ready to get one it will be available with the EBL Flash. RBob said it was something they where working on.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Pulled the motor back out and got to work on the inner fender wells. Removed all the undercoating and 24 yr old seam sealer. Took all day with a wire wheel but its all clean now and has new seam sealer installed. Didn't have enough time to put the Herculiner on.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Got 95% of the fuel system hooked up and most of the sensors installed.





Then I started working on the engine harness, repined for the new EBL Flash ECM and removed emissions. Also removed the old wires from the Auto to Manual swap I did a few years ago. Moved Knock sensor to drivers side and Alternator wires to passenger side.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Nice! Looks great

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Fuel lines done. Alternator and Power steering hooked up.








Bolted on the rest of the FIRST intake and sensors plus adjusted more wires.







Not much left on the wiring and only need to get a new throttle position sensor and I should be able too drop in the battery and make sure all the sensors are talking to the EBL Flash ECM.

D&S 85 IROC

This is a very imformative thread, give me a whole bunch of ideas. I'm subscribe to this one.