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Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
I might be putting a Pontiac 400 in a 1987 formula. I know that there is a few threads on how to swap them but I haven't seen anything on what headers to use, could I use the shorty headers off the 305 TPI that came out of the car? I want to use solid engine mounts and I heard a Pontiac engine will not bolt right into an F body so what engine mounts should I use? Can I use my 700R4 with the 400? Can I put a 400 stroker crank in it like a chevy 350 and bore it 30 over? what cubic inch would 400 be with that done to it?
Thanks
Any number of people come in here on a regular basis and say they want to do this. Can't say I've seen ANY of them get it to a successful conclusion for MANY A YEAR now. It used to be possible, if somewhat impractical; nowadays it would require fabrication skills equipment and facilities that someone who would ask that kind of question in that manner, isn't likely to be aware of, let alone possess.
No, SBC (262.5/265/267/283/302/305/327/350/400) headers will not bolt onto a Pontiac motor. The bolt pattern is different, the exhaust port spacing is different, the angle of the flange is different.
No, a 700 will not bolt to a Pontiac motor. It has only the Chevy V8 bolt pattern. (or the GM 60° 6-cyl; but that wouldn't be appropriate to a big-inch V8 anyway) You could possibly use an adapter plate but that comes with its own set of issues.
No, you can't put a 400 stroker crank into a 400 and make it into a 400... it already is a 400.
There's no good reason to use solid engine mounts on any motor at any kind of normal street power level. Not sure why installing ... that ... would be considered a "goal" of a swap. For most people it's a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. But, you could put some on your 305 right now as it sits if you really want them, and see for yourself why they're not more popular than they are except at extreme power levels. I think you'll find that they're A WHOLE LOTTA maze with NO cheese AT ALL at the end. Maybe even negative cheese.
Yes you can bore it .030" over. That would be the standard amount for the first instance of maintenance to the block. No it will not materially affect power output. No it will not make into "some other motor" besides a 400; it will add acoupla CID, but the motor pretty much remains a 400. (which isn't exactly 400 CID in the first place; the name is just a "figure of speech", which pretty much still applies to the result)
No, there is no particular advantage to a Pontiac motor over a Chevy one. Or really, the other way around either, besides fitment in a particular chassis and weight and ease of installation and that sort of thing. They're both "good" motors, in their own ways; they were quite competitive with each other back in their day which was very near a half-century ago in the case of the 400, each with its own strengths and weaknesses; both are 50s technology, i.e. 65-70 yrs old now; neither is anywhere near competitive with modern ones of equal displacement. There's nothing to gain by doing this other than CID. Which, to get to 400 CID, you could use a SBC 400 if you can find one, or get pretty close by stroking a 350 to 383 (what most people do nowadays, given that the 400 SBC hasn't been made for almost 40 yrs now). Which ultimately means, if you're going to go to the trouble of putting a Pontiac motor into a car foreign to it in the first place, might as well put in a 455 rather than a 400. Exactly the same effort and expense are required, you just get more of an effect from it. Otherwise all you do is run a YUUUUUUJJJJJE maze of swappage, to get to some amount of cheeeeeze that can be equally obtained MUCH more cheeeeeeeply and eeeeeeeezily with a SBC.
There are no "big block" or "small block" Pontiac V8s. Don't let that idea enter your head. They all have the same bore spacing. From the 301 to the 455. They all weigh the same. They are all larger than a SBC. There ARE however, 2 different deck heights, which can result in YUUUUUJJJJJE complications that are hard to foresee if you're not already familiar with them, including exhaust fitment (taller deck = wider space between exh man flanges as well as higher up off the frame and oil pan, as well as more interference with AC evap housing and power brakes and such as that) and accessory drive compatibility. 301 & 350 are the short one; 370, 389, 400, 428, 455 are the tall one. Can't remember for positive what the 326 was but I'm pretty sure it was tall, don't quote me on that.
Pontiac motors ARE NOT "torque monsters", except to the extent that a 4xx CID motor makes more torque than a 350 or whatever. Disabuse yourself immediately of however much of that notion you might happen to have. A 350 Pontiac makes about the same torque as a 350 Chevy with an equivalent compression ratio, cam, intake & exhaust, etc. A 400 makes about the same torque as an equivalently built SBC 400 or BBC 396/402. A 301 is about the same as a 305. A 455 makes about the same torque as a BBC 454. And so forth. CUBIC INCHES are "torque monsters", not brands of cast iron.
Last edited by sofakingdom; 07-23-2018 at 08:28 AM.
I added a link to my org post but looks like he only had 100 miles on it b4 he went on drag week in 17. Not sure if the motor was freshend or just dropped in the car?
I would like to use this 400 engine in the Formula because I think it would be cool to have a real Pontiac engine in a Pontiac. It is a Ramair 400 ll out of a Firebird. Can anyone find a link for that 700R4 adapter or maybe I can find a TH400 or 4L80E. What headers can I use. This isn't a plain old street car I set it up for my 383 stroker and the 400 has some really good power adders and I'm sick of the rubber Moroso engine mounts busting in my Vega.
ok It will fit almost bought an 88 with a 455 sd transplant which is the same external dimension you will need to use a 200 r 4 with an BOP bolt pattern or TH400 BOP or a manual , almost did this transplant in my 86 But I sold the motor to a second gen guy who needed it more.
Lmao I just don't want to order the wrong adapter. I want to use a TH400 but I like the low first gear and the overdrive of the 700R4. I'll need a tailshaft for the TH400 though. I finally found an adapter that is a direct fit for the tranny. The only thing I can't find is headers.
If you really have a RA II you have some coin sitting there. It would be worth selling that to a numbers guy and grabbing a good 455 with aluminum heads and roller cam.
I think it would be cool to have a real Pontiac engine in a Pontiac.
Um... But... If Pontiacs came with Chevy small blocks, wouldn't the small block then by default be a "real Pontiac" engine? If not, is car even a "real Pontiac"? I don't really follow the logic behind the 'real' Pontiac engine. Pontiacs really came with 350 sbcs and 403 Olds, so on, and so forth... The 2.5L was a Pontiac engine, so by that logic a 84 Firebird with a 4 pot boat anchor is a "real Pontiac"?
Oh no, not another "Ram Air II out of a Firebird"...
Right on up there with a "LT-1 out of a 70½ Z/28"... or all of the LT-1"s out of 71 Vettes... wasn't that the year that they had so much trouble with body rust? (yes I've actually had a scammer tell me that while offering me some L48 type of boat anchor)
There are SO MANY supposed of clones of that out there in hot-rodder world now, literally MULTIPLES of the number that were ever ACTUALLY produced (which was... what... a few hundred?), I can hardly believe that ANY of them that are for sale, EVER, are the REAL thing. Or even very CLOSE. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if somebody said they had one and it turned out that it was REALLY an Olds 403 aka "T/A 6.6"... all 195 HP of it or whatever it was.
the 400 has some really good power adders
So it's NOT REALLY a "Ram Air II out of a Firebird" at all is it. It's just some old Pontiac motor that somebody has hot-rodded. On account of, if it WAS a RAII FOR REAL, then somebody just DEVALUED a multi-giga-$$$ DIAMOND into a steaming pile of ... something less than that; to the tune of, knocking $25,000 of value or some such off of it. Even if it "runs great". A TRUE ACTUAL REAL UNMOLESTED NOT CLONE RAII is worth ABUNCHAMOOLA on the open market, whereas a 400 (or not) that "has some really good power adders" is a dime a dozen comparatively speaking.
And still not really competitive with modern motors. You'll find yourself spending MOUNTAINS of $$$ and time and effort and trial & error and Pete & Repete to put this into effect, and ... STILL getting an ***-whuppin at every street corner from the LSx and Coyote and Hemi cars that use a quarter the gas and have working AC and Bluetooth and nice clean fresh new upholstery that members of the opposite sex (well, the OTHER one; they're not really so much "opposite" or even "opposed" in the right situation) won't run away from as fast as they can. People in the world at large just don't care about that sort of thing.
If that's all this is about, then this thread might as well be allowed to die.
What headers can I use
And there we come to the heart of the problem. That's the $64,000 question. And the $69,000 answer is, the ones you make. Because nobody seems to factory-make them anymore. Haven't for decades now. Last source for such things I knew of was Indian Adventures, and I think he retired in the mid 90s.
rubber Moroso engine mounts busting in my Vega
Not at all the same thing. Obviously you haven't ever actually looked at a motor mount for a 3rd gen F-body. You should do that. Or, like I said, go put a set of solid ones in your 305 car, and come back and tell us whether it was really A Good Idea. Good enough to carry forward and set up as a "goal" for this other thing.
Last edited by sofakingdom; 07-23-2018 at 05:41 PM.
Wow you're one rude guy. Why on this forum when you just ask for help you get ***holes being dicks. The car actually has a nice bluetooth and serious XM radio I put in it and it's one sweet beast inside and out so what ever Sofakingdom. The Pontiac guy said it's a Pontiac ramair 400 maybe it's not a ll but what ever and that all that matters. That's what I want to do with the car and That's what I'm gonna do. Thanks to the people that actually helped/tried to help.
Two possibilities... ***holes are really being dicks, because it's fun, because they're evil, because they're grumpy old grouches, or just having a bad day...
Or maybe ***holes aren't being dicks at all. Maybe the ***holes are trying to save you from your bad idea, by giving you a reality check. Maybe being subject to some critical thought on an internet forum, a little digital 'tough love' if you will, is insignificant to the challenges your idea is setting you up to face.
Maybe people read things the wrong way unless everyone gives them the answer they want to hear.
I second Drew and Sofa but my angle is simply the hassle/return ratio is nowhere near what it would need to be to make it worth doing otherwise you would see more of it. If you want to say you have a 400 just use a chevy 400. It will drop right in and you have the whole world of small block aftermarket support at your disposal. Your headers will fit, 700R4 will work, heck the "stroker crank" is built in with this option. Whatever you do, don't use solid engine mounts if you plan on enjoying this car on the street for any length of time.
By the way, I want to begin the movement to ban the following phrases,"Power Adder" and "Full Bolt Ons"
Wow you're one rude guy. Why on this forum when you just ask for help you get ***holes being dicks. The car actually has a nice bluetooth and serious XM radio I put in it and it's one sweet beast inside and out so what ever Sofakingdom. The Pontiac guy said it's a Pontiac ramair 400 maybe it's not a ll but what ever and that all that matters. That's what I want to do with the car and That's what I'm gonna do. Thanks to the people that actually helped/tried to help.
At one point I too questioned Sofas way of coming across on here until his point proved me wrong. The dude is knowledgeable as can be about this stuff+ he has an awesome way with words. He's not telling you it can't be done he is trying to get you to see this is a swap that is not fast,easy, or cheap. I've read dozens of dead end threads on it. Heck yeah it's a cool idea but for the average Joe it is just that an idea. Do yourself a favor and search through the threads on here about this swap and look through some of Sofas post, you may change your mind about both.
After it's done. You're not the first to think they're gonna go this (although you seem to think you are), and instinct tells me you won't be the last. A bunch of "I want to" "I think" "the guy told me" "I'm gonna anyway" "it's what I want" only takes you just so far... none of it automatically makes it A Good Idea. At some point the bolts gotta be turned. Let us know how that goes.
Last edited by sofakingdom; 07-24-2018 at 06:41 AM.
I realize this is an old thread, but since I was mentioned back at the top, I will throw my 2 cents in.
I have the 1989 White Formula with a Fuel Injected 1978 Poncho 400 W72 and LS1 type T56 behind it.
Yes the car is slow. Now I'm not setting any records with it. I've so far finished Drag Week in 17, and 18, and managed to break the car this year after our first pass in 19. This was due to my own fault with roller lifters that I should have replaced after the last build. Live and learn.
Why did I do it? Because everyone is doing an LS swap. I was even planning on it, and had the LQ9 in the car. But I went with the Pontiac and it turned out to be the best decision I ever made. Here is why.
It's different. I've had more people stop and talk to me about it than I would have with staying with a SBC or LS swap. I've even had an 89 RS Vert with an LT1 I built and never got the comments or congrats I have with the 400.
It's a basic build currently, not a lot of power. Flat top pistons with a roller cam, and ported 6X-4 heads. Made a best pass so far of a 13.3x @ 105 on a HORRIBLE 1.9x 60 ft. And that was with a 7730 ECM that was loosing it's mind. But holy crap is it fun to drive. Plenty of torque to blow the street tires off even at 45. And the sound is different enough that most people that know will give me a questioning look when it fires up with the hood down.
We were hoping for 12's this year but after a big move, no time to prep, and a slammed together rebuild due to a spun bearing, it just wasn't in the cards. Not making excuses, we failed. But I still had a great time at Drag Week and learned a lot from people running Ponchos and making them live. If we had made it, we wouldn't have had the time to talk to as many people as we had and learned what we did.
Is it fast? No. Will it be or can it be? Probably. Fast is relative. Would I do it again? In a heart beat. I didn't do this for being leader of the class, or the fastest thing at the track. I did it for the fun of it, for the laughs, and for the great people I've met because "Hey, a Poncho in a Poncho. What a concept." I do it because I enjoy it. To me, that's all that matters.
And BTW, that first pic, is from Hot Rods website. Coverage from 2017 DW @ St Louise.
Your car is set up pretty cool. I don't think I'd do this myself...though I'd never put a sbc in my second gen either. For a seemingly simple roller cammed W72, 13.3x is fairly good. What exhaust mainfolds are you running? Logs or RAIII's?
I am currently using the stock manifolds off the 78 Trans Am the engine came from. I know the stock logs suck for exhaust flow, but, they do fit as if the thirdgen was made to take a Pontiac engine.
Having said that, this year the engine and car are going through some much needed upgrades, one of which will either be a custom set of headers or RARE Manifolds. Time available will dictate which way I go.
BTW, one trick learned early on during mock up, it is advisable to put the drivers side manifold on or in place before dropping the engine in. Learned that the easy way for once, so I thought I would pass it on.
I think the current setup has a 12 sec pass in it, but I tend to be a little cautions at Drag Week with no safety net, and history has shown that when we start getting the car dialed in as far as the tune goes, something usually breaks and we have to dial it back or just be happy we got a pass in and can turn in a time slip. It's always a work in progress and we never have the luxury of time to make 1 change at a time and check for improvements. Usually, its throw the kitchen sink at it and dial it in as we go.
Not the best way to do it, but it does make it interesting, and as we found out this year, not always successful. But I think we learned a lot from it, and can take steps to make it even better next year.
Chvywolf I like what you’ve done with you car! On the other thread for drag week I noticed you were at Cordova Dragway for part of the trip? I’m just right down the road from there, would have been cool to check that out!
I’m sure you’re aware, but the RA Restoration manifolds might a good choice for a better flowing manifold if you were looking for that. I have done this swap as well and opted for the Headman ceramic coated shorty D port headers, and fabricating on the K member to get them to fit. If I had to do it again, I would have either went with the RARE manifolds or used a tubular K member with the headers. The car sounds great though through the 3” exhaust and Flowmaster that’s been on it for 20 plus years lol.
To the OP. If this is something you’re interested in doing and have the skills/tools necessary to accomplish such a task, go for it. Don’t let your decision hinge on others on this board. Most everyone is gonna tell you to go SBC simply because it’s common and easy. If you’re a crowd follower, by all means this is the route you go. If something different is what you want, a Pontiac engine in a third gen is just that. It’s not a bolt in a go deal, but then again neither is an LS swap or anything else you could put in the car. Everything is gonna require attention to detail and some modifications of some sort or another. If you want something unique build whatever your heart desires. And as TTOP350 said, if it is a true RAII engine you were considering or have it’s probably worth some money for sure. When dealing with the Pontiac engine, if you see round ports on the exhaust you have something you don’t see often.
CK nice clean under hood pic. Hopefully mine will be similar after this much needed down time. For a while it was all about function. But again, full marks on yours.
I like the idea of the RARE manifolds, especially the CNC'd versions for better flow. The only thing holding me back is weight. I run in the Street Race Class, and it has a minimum weight of 3200 lbs, and let me tell you, I could take the engine out of the car and still make weight. It's 3700 lbs on the way off the track. Granted the driver weight reduction mod has failed miserably with my 240lbs not doing me or my time slip any favors.
By next year it will probably be close to the same weight but distributed more to the rear with the role cage going in and aluminum heads in place of iron, etc. Like I said, work in progress. I am very likely to go with the RARE's despite the weight, if anything it cuts down on exhaust noise. It's one thing for a track car to be loud, but I can't help but laugh at the guys that are rolling with double hearing protection. I've spent to many hours on a flight line or roof to want to do that when I'm trying to enjoy my week off and driving 1000-1500 miles. But I digress.
CKone, how have your experiences been with FiTech on your Pontiac?
I’ve only put a few miles on the thing so it hasn’t had the time to really learn and adjust while driving, but I’ve been pretty impressed with it so far. You turn key on and it takes a second to prime the pump and it fires right up. Acts very similar to any other EFI car during warm up etc. Above all however, I never would have imagined how responsive the thing is. It’s about as snappy as some of the dirt track race engines I’ve tuned in the past. The install was pretty simple as well. Perhaps the the worst part of the deal was having to pull the tank back out to put a pump back in it as I had originally went carb and removed the TPI pump and put a pick up in the bottom. Three times having this tank out in 23 years of owning this car, no access hole or trap door kids lol. Car needs a few odds and ends done to it that I hope to get done over the winter and get it out and put some miles on it in the spring
I think thats super cool and agree everyones got a 350 or an Ls. Hot rodding is about being different sometimes
an honest 13 sec car with good toruqe in my book is still worthwhile..Theres a lot of guys running around with big dyno sheets that couldnt run anywhere close to what they think, main point here is to just drive it and have fun. Who gaf what anyone else thinks.
Best of luck with the build! I have a '77 TransAm with a 467 stroker Poncho. I would never LS swap it or go SBC but I had no hesitation to do an LS2 swap with my '87 Monte SS. In the end, do what you want and brings you pleasure.
Any number of people come in here on a regular basis and say they want to do this. Can't say I've seen ANY of them get it to a successful conclusion for MANY A YEAR now. It used to be possible, if somewhat impractical; nowadays it would require fabrication skills equipment and facilities that someone who would ask that kind of question in that manner, isn't likely to be aware of, let alone possess.
No, SBC (262.5/265/267/283/302/305/327/350/400) headers will not bolt onto a Pontiac motor. The bolt pattern is different, the exhaust port spacing is different, the angle of the flange is different.
No, a 700 will not bolt to a Pontiac motor. It has only the Chevy V8 bolt pattern. (or the GM 60° 6-cyl; but that wouldn't be appropriate to a big-inch V8 anyway) You could possibly use an adapter plate but that comes with its own set of issues.
No, you can't put a 400 stroker crank into a 400 and make it into a 400... it already is a 400.
There's no good reason to use solid engine mounts on any motor at any kind of normal street power level. Not sure why installing ... that ... would be considered a "goal" of a swap. For most people it's a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. But, you could put some on your 305 right now as it sits if you really want them, and see for yourself why they're not more popular than they are except at extreme power levels. I think you'll find that they're A WHOLE LOTTA maze with NO cheese AT ALL at the end. Maybe even negative cheese.
Yes you can bore it .030" over. That would be the standard amount for the first instance of maintenance to the block. No it will not materially affect power output. No it will not make into "some other motor" besides a 400; it will add acoupla CID, but the motor pretty much remains a 400. (which isn't exactly 400 CID in the first place; the name is just a "figure of speech", which pretty much still applies to the result)
No, there is no particular advantage to a Pontiac motor over a Chevy one. Or really, the other way around either, besides fitment in a particular chassis and weight and ease of installation and that sort of thing. They're both "good" motors, in their own ways; they were quite competitive with each other back in their day which was very near a half-century ago in the case of the 400, each with its own strengths and weaknesses; both are 50s technology, i.e. 65-70 yrs old now; neither is anywhere near competitive with modern ones of equal displacement. There's nothing to gain by doing this other than CID. Which, to get to 400 CID, you could use a SBC 400 if you can find one, or get pretty close by stroking a 350 to 383 (what most people do nowadays, given that the 400 SBC hasn't been made for almost 40 yrs now). Which ultimately means, if you're going to go to the trouble of putting a Pontiac motor into a car foreign to it in the first place, might as well put in a 455 rather than a 400. Exactly the same effort and expense are required, you just get more of an effect from it. Otherwise all you do is run a YUUUUUUJJJJJE maze of swappage, to get to some amount of cheeeeeze that can be equally obtained MUCH more cheeeeeeeply and eeeeeeeezily with a SBC.
There are no "big block" or "small block" Pontiac V8s. Don't let that idea enter your head. They all have the same bore spacing. From the 301 to the 455. They all weigh the same. They are all larger than a SBC. There ARE however, 2 different deck heights, which can result in YUUUUUJJJJJE complications that are hard to foresee if you're not already familiar with them, including exhaust fitment (taller deck = wider space between exh man flanges as well as higher up off the frame and oil pan, as well as more interference with AC evap housing and power brakes and such as that) and accessory drive compatibility. 301 & 350 are the short one; 370, 389, 400, 428, 455 are the tall one. Can't remember for positive what the 326 was but I'm pretty sure it was tall, don't quote me on that.
Pontiac motors ARE NOT "torque monsters", except to the extent that a 4xx CID motor makes more torque than a 350 or whatever. Disabuse yourself immediately of however much of that notion you might happen to have. A 350 Pontiac makes about the same torque as a 350 Chevy with an equivalent compression ratio, cam, intake & exhaust, etc. A 400 makes about the same torque as an equivalently built SBC 400 or BBC 396/402. A 301 is about the same as a 305. A 455 makes about the same torque as a BBC 454. And so forth. CUBIC INCHES are "torque monsters", not brands of cast iron.
I have a Pontiac 400 sitting in my thirdgen right now it’s not running but that’s nothing to do with the swap more me not wanting to mess around with flat tappet cam shafts no real fan work is required I just drilled new motor mount holes and used mounts from a late 2gen I also kept trans installed and used it as a zero point fits under factory hood too only issue I would really have is headers i reccomend just using rear dump logs I’ve experimented with a few headers and while I got them to fit they were a pain in the *** and ground clearance was a issue u could prolly find shorty headers that work tho also there are lots of advantages to Pontiac motor they have alot more torque on the low end and can make no just as easy if not easier then a sbc
Just as an FYI, this is my Pontiac 400 Powered 89 Formula, Magnum T56 and S60 with 4.10's. Since the above pics I posted, the car now has the Magnum T56 instead of the LS1 T56, swapped to a tubular K member and A Arms, and swapped to a 411 LS1 ECM (It thinks its an 02 SS) to make it easier to tune with HP Tuners, Edelbrock Round Port heads and RA IV manifolds.
Didn't make Drag Week this year, not because of the car, life gets in the way sometimes, but last year my Crew Chief and I set a personal best of 11.97 @ 115. We finished in the middle of the pack for Street Race Small Block N/A. In the same year, we did Sick Week 22, Tick Cruise, Sick Shootout with the NMCA, and Roadkill Nights racing on Woodward.
07-22-2018, 08:50 PM
