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12-04-2003, 09:01 PM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,580
Car: 91 Suburban, 91 Z28 Engine: I have one that runs ;) Transmission: Caged hamster that runs really fast Axle/Gears: They are round, I know that much | Can i run my engine w/o A.I.R. system? i took the AIR stuff off my car and what to know if i can run the car without AIR or will it run funny? or can i bypass the stuff and not worry about it(i did a search and didnt get the exact answer i wanted)
__________________ Mike
I drive nothing with less than 350 cubic inches.... Best of a 13.50 @ 107 with a now blown trans in my old 91 Z28.
Now making room for the new race car.....an 88 RS. Its like myspace BUT for gear heads |
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12-04-2003, 11:32 PM
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#2 | | Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Littleton, CO USA
Posts: 28,509
Car: 82 Berlinetta(2)/57 Bel Air Engine: 86 LG4-> ZZ3(LS1)/mild 396 Transmission: TH700(T56)/TH400 Axle/Gears: 3.23(4.10)/3.73 | The TPI system doesn't rely on the A.I.R. system for anything. The only effect will be the quality of what goes out the tailpipes. |
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12-05-2003, 04:48 PM
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#3 | | Supporter/Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 11,000
Car: '90 RS Engine: LO3 Transmission: T5 | Take it out an free up some wieght and space.
__________________ '90 M5 LO3 RS
'61 M4 Corvair Lakewood Wagon
'03 M6 Cobra Cardomain site WTB: LO3 heads, 187 casting |
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12-05-2003, 06:33 PM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,580
Car: 91 Suburban, 91 Z28 Engine: I have one that runs ;) Transmission: Caged hamster that runs really fast Axle/Gears: They are round, I know that much | thanks five7 that is the exact answer i was looking for, all the other answers from old posts are complicated and them 2 or 3 guys end up fighting over something  |
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12-05-2003, 07:54 PM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Powder Springs, Georgia, USA
Posts: 396
Car: 1992 Black Z28 Hardtop Engine: 5.7 TPI Transmission: 700R4 Axle/Gears: Factory w/3:23 | Quote: Originally posted by five7kid The TPI system doesn't rely on the A.I.R. system for anything. The only effect will be the quality of what goes out the tailpipes. | and that's not much. My Z tested as clean as ever. (the new cats probably didn't hurt). Ditch the dead weight, but only if your state doesn't do a visual inspection.
__________________ 92BLKL98 '92 Black Z28 H/T,4" cowl hood,MSD Ignition,March U/D,The Ostrich,Ram air,SLP runners,24# inj,SLP1 3/4 headers,Pypes cats,Mufflex 3.5 cat back Spintech muffler,Amsoil synth.lubes,CESFC's,Edelbrock STB,SpohnTA,Wonderbar,Roadtech LCA's and PHB,PST susp,KYB Shocks,LPE 3.5" alum D/S,LS1 brake upgrade. |
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12-05-2003, 08:04 PM
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#6 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bergen County, NJ
Posts: 841
Car: 1989 IROC-Z Engine: L98 Transmission: T-56 | just one more vote so you can make a confident decision. my car doesnt have the A.I.R. system anymore and passed emissions in Jersey with flying colors. i ended up failing for a faulty third brake light  |
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12-05-2003, 09:25 PM
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#7 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,580
Car: 91 Suburban, 91 Z28 Engine: I have one that runs ;) Transmission: Caged hamster that runs really fast Axle/Gears: They are round, I know that much | thats cool, yeah i plan on getting it really clean runnning and my state only does visuals if you fail 3 times, i know my buddy is going thru the same prob with his 90 RS but he has all the AIR stuff and cant pass  |
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12-05-2003, 10:37 PM
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#8 | | Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Littleton, CO USA
Posts: 28,509
Car: 82 Berlinetta(2)/57 Bel Air Engine: 86 LG4-> ZZ3(LS1)/mild 396 Transmission: TH700(T56)/TH400 Axle/Gears: 3.23(4.10)/3.73 | Shall I put my 15-year-old on and have him point out all the logical fallacies of the peceding statements?
Functioning A.I.R. helps clean up the exhaust. Period. Whether it is needed in order for the exhaust to be "clean enough", or whether it is sufficient to make the exhaust "clean enough" doesn't prove anything.
You'll save more weight by cleaning all the trash out of your trunk. Or putting 2 fewer gallons in the tank.
Can't argue that it makes changing plugs harder. Don't do that very often, though, typically. |
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12-08-2003, 04:15 PM
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#9 | | Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: ME.
Posts: 352
Car: 1991 Z-28 Engine: TPI Transmission: 5-speed Rear:3.73 | does this include a block off plate for the EGR? or can you not plug that and the vacume lines to it??  |
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12-08-2003, 05:20 PM
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#10 | | Member
Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Anoka MN
Posts: 174
Car: 89' RS Engine: 5.0 Transmission: slipping 700r4, soon probuilt | how about Tbi does it rely on air? |
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12-08-2003, 05:22 PM
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#11 | | Supporter/Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 11,000
Car: '90 RS Engine: LO3 Transmission: T5 | Quote: Originally posted by Sunny RS how about Tbi does it rely on air? | Nope. Just make sure you keep those wires from getting tangled up in anything since they will no longer be plugged in. |
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12-10-2003, 02:11 PM
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#12 | | Member
Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Howell, NJ; Glassboro, NJ
Posts: 350
Car: 1987 Z28 Engine: 350 Transmission: Auto | NJITIROC i see ur in NJ so am i and im thinking about taking the air system out but if i take that out can i still have a cat or no and do u have a cat on ur car?
Last edited by 87camaro kid : 12-11-2003 at 01:07 PM.
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12-11-2003, 12:19 PM
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#13 | | Member
Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 157
Car: 87 plane jane with gfx Engine: 350 worked vortec head .515 .515 cam and 1.6 rockers and shorties for now til i can afford the supercomps Transmission: super t-10 or t-5 Axle/Gears: auburn with 3.42 stock axles | i'm from jersey to and my TPI doesnt have the air system hooked up and it runs fine and my buddys tBI didnt have it hooked up either so it's all good
__________________ 87 Z28 with a T-5 rear 4.10 TPI R.I.P.
87 camaro 3.42 car for sale as roller
welcome to the thunderdome B---- |
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12-11-2003, 01:08 PM
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#14 | | Member
Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Howell, NJ; Glassboro, NJ
Posts: 350
Car: 1987 Z28 Engine: 350 Transmission: Auto | what about running a converter with it? |
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12-11-2003, 01:38 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bergen County, NJ
Posts: 841
Car: 1989 IROC-Z Engine: L98 Transmission: T-56 | Quote: Originally posted by 87camaro kid what about running a converter with it? | yep i have my cat in there still. and i plan on keeping it in.  |
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12-11-2003, 01:41 PM
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#16 | | Member
Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Howell, NJ; Glassboro, NJ
Posts: 350
Car: 1987 Z28 Engine: 350 Transmission: Auto | and it runs fine with out the air? i plane on putting a cut out right before the cat so i guess i might as well keep it plus im having headers put in also |
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12-15-2003, 02:05 PM
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#17 | | Member
Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 157
Car: 87 plane jane with gfx Engine: 350 worked vortec head .515 .515 cam and 1.6 rockers and shorties for now til i can afford the supercomps Transmission: super t-10 or t-5 Axle/Gears: auburn with 3.42 stock axles | i bought an aftermaket cat after i put the headers and my cat back system on and i just have one thing to tell you if you are gonna kept your cat get a high flow name brand one cause if not you might end up like me i blew the inside of 2 of them into piece and then just said screw it and hollowed it out 
__________________ 87 Z28 with a T-5 rear 4.10 TPI R.I.P.
87 camaro 3.42 car for sale as roller
welcome to the thunderdome B---- |
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12-15-2003, 03:19 PM
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#18 | | Member
Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Howell, NJ; Glassboro, NJ
Posts: 350
Car: 1987 Z28 Engine: 350 Transmission: Auto | im not ganna even bother with a cat ill wait till inspection and throw one on ill probably jsut end up having an exhaust shop cut out a peace of pip long enough to fit were the cat would go |
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12-15-2003, 09:18 PM
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#19 | | TGO Supporter/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: Lawrence, Mass, USA
Posts: 5,085
Car: '87 Corvette Engine: 350, .040 Over, supercharger Transmission: ZF6, 16lbs flywheel, DF Clutch Axle/Gears: Dana36 IRS, 3.54 gears | Quote: |
The TPI system doesn't rely on the A.I.R. system for anything. The only effect will be the quality of what goes out the tailpipes.
| Wrong.. The TPI system accounts for the air injection by adding 100mv to the o2 readings. So when you remove the air injection, but the computer still thinks its there you run 100mv LEANER. Obviously this kills performance.
You can modify this setting in the prom, or you can reconnect your air..
If anyone would like to chime in and tell me i'm wrong, I'll be glad to post the section of code from the bin where this happens.
-- Joe |
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12-16-2003, 10:55 AM
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#20 | | Member
Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 157
Car: 87 plane jane with gfx Engine: 350 worked vortec head .515 .515 cam and 1.6 rockers and shorties for now til i can afford the supercomps Transmission: super t-10 or t-5 Axle/Gears: auburn with 3.42 stock axles | wouldnt that make the car run leaner equal out the fact that they run rich from the factory and make the car run semi close to were it should be, because i have been told they run quite rich from the factory
__________________ 87 Z28 with a T-5 rear 4.10 TPI R.I.P.
87 camaro 3.42 car for sale as roller
welcome to the thunderdome B---- |
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12-16-2003, 11:08 AM
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#21 | | Supporter/Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 11,000
Car: '90 RS Engine: LO3 Transmission: T5 | Quote: Originally posted by 87camaroz28310 wouldnt that make the car run leaner equal out the fact that they run rich from the factory and make the car run semi close to were it should be, because i have been told they run quite rich from the factory | They don't all run rich. GM did not set the fuel pressure consistantly on any of their cars. And two cars side by side will in most cases test differently. That is more so for TBI car's though. Not sure about TPI's but I do know that LT1's come quite rich. |
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12-16-2003, 11:12 AM
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#22 | | Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Littleton, CO USA
Posts: 28,509
Car: 82 Berlinetta(2)/57 Bel Air Engine: 86 LG4-> ZZ3(LS1)/mild 396 Transmission: TH700(T56)/TH400 Axle/Gears: 3.23(4.10)/3.73 | Quote: Originally posted by anesthes Wrong.. The TPI system accounts for the air injection by adding 100mv to the o2 readings. So when you remove the air injection, but the computer still thinks its there you run 100mv LEANER. Obviously this kills performance.
You can modify this setting in the prom, or you can reconnect your air. | Interesting, since the A.I.R. is routed to the cat, which is downstream of the O2 sensor, in closed loop.
I don't know for certain, but my guess would be the 100mV is added to compensate for line loss. |
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12-16-2003, 11:17 AM
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#23 | | TGO Supporter/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: Lawrence, Mass, USA
Posts: 5,085
Car: '87 Corvette Engine: 350, .040 Over, supercharger Transmission: ZF6, 16lbs flywheel, DF Clutch Axle/Gears: Dana36 IRS, 3.54 gears | Quote:
Interesting, since the A.I.R. is routed to the cat, which is downstream of the O2 sensor, in closed loop.
I don't know for certain, but my guess would be the 100mV is
added to compensate for line loss.
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I used to think the same thing about divert to cat only in closed loop.
Air is routed to the cat, the manifolds, and to the atmosphere. I was going over the code in teh $8D and it flips the solenoids and diverts it different places all over. There is no way of telling
when its doing what while driving - the fact is, removing the air will get a false 02 reading and cause less fuel to be dumped, which will cause a lean condition at certain points.
-- Joe |
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12-17-2003, 07:25 AM
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#24 | | Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 17,299
| Not to argue, but just curious since this topic appears frequently. What addresses are those OČ offsets? I'm using $32 (and B) and haven't encountered that. I've got a lot of other PROM masks but haven't bothered to hack them all out. You could save me a lot of time. |
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12-17-2003, 12:07 PM
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#25 | | TGO Supporter/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: Lawrence, Mass, USA
Posts: 5,085
Car: '87 Corvette Engine: 350, .040 Over, supercharger Transmission: ZF6, 16lbs flywheel, DF Clutch Axle/Gears: Dana36 IRS, 3.54 gears | Quote: |
Not to argue, but just curious since this topic appears frequently. What addresses are those OČ offsets? I'm using $32 (and B) and haven't encountered that. I've got a lot of other PROM masks but haven't bothered to hack them all out. You could save me a lot of time.
| http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...hreadid=214321 (Removing Smog pump, AIR: $8D 730 modifications)
Tim outlined it here.. I've researched, and he's right.
-- Joe |
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12-17-2003, 01:19 PM
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#26 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,842
Car: Toys 'R Us Big Wheel Engine: Two Size 10 Feet Transmission: Direct Foot Pedal Drive | First set of $32 AIR mangement constants ... Code: ***************************************************
* >>> Air Injection Managment Tables & Param's <<<
*
***************************************************
LC2FF: FCB 00 ; Max Air to ports if in Pwr Enrich
; If In WOT >= then divert Air, (Sec)
;
LC300: FCB 10 ; Divert if If RPM Cont > ____ > 10 SEC
; Cal = Arg * 10, (1 Sec)
;
LC301: FCB 170 ; If Filtered o2 > 0.752 vdc for ___
; Then divert
; Cal = Arg * 226
LC302: FCB 56 ; If Filtered o2 0.247 vdc & in closed loop
; > Then divert
; Cal = Arg * 226
;
LC303: FDB 200 ; 20 sec Rich or Lean o2 Divert timer
; Cal = Arg * 10
;
LC305: FCB 160 ; Divert if cont > 4000 RPM & time >
;
LC306: FCB 10 ; Enable air to conv If > 1 SEC since
; last neg delta LV8 > is <
;
LC307: FCB 25 ; If LV8 < 25 then Divert
LC308: FCB 100 ; If LV8 > 100 & MPH > Divert Air
LC309: FCB 60 ; If > 60 MPH & LV8 > then divert
;
LC30A: FCB 64 ; Enable air to conv if in open lp
; & 100 Msec Drop in LV8 < 64
;
LC30B: FCB 73 ; If Cool < 14c, (58.5f) then divert
; Cal = (Arg + 40) * 256/192
LC30C: FCB 254 ; If in Open Lp => 25.4 Sec after
; closed loop then Divert
; Cal = Arg * 10
*************************************************** |
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12-17-2003, 01:20 PM
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#27 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,842
Car: Toys 'R Us Big Wheel Engine: Two Size 10 Feet Transmission: Direct Foot Pedal Drive | Second set (102mV difference for BUA / $32) Code: LC562: FCB 23 ; Diff Value to Make up Rich/Lean Window
; When Air div, CALIB = Arg * 226, (.102 VDC) |
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12-17-2003, 01:22 PM
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#28 | | | | | |