DNSTA

There seems to be a true dual 3 inch setup for 3rd and 4th gens on Ebay. It looks pretty good from the pictures. All mandrel bent pipes and good ground clearance. Looks totally legit. But $1000.00!!! Come on! Correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't you have a reputable muffler shop build you a system for cheaper than that? An no shipping costs. Let me know what you think. Other than the price it seems pretty damn sweet!

Oh yeah here is the link to the setup on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Camar...spagenameZWDVW

DNSTA

just posting again to see if my sig mods worked.

dankhound

Only way to find out would be to call some shops and ask but I cant imagine a custom setup would cost more than a grand.

CraZ-28

Wow, and it doesn't even look that good. Fr that much you figure the welds would look better than that. You could get it done for less than that. Ask Willie about his setup. Looks a lot like that except his goes to shorties and also has cats. His also goes through an X-pipe, well, sort of. For a grand you could get an exhause that looks WAAAAY better than that pos and performs better.

Rob Wade

Ah hahahahahahah! $1000.00 Tell you what you bring your car to Windsor Ontario Canada (south Detroit)and give me a thousand bucks US cash and Ill custom fab you an exhaust that blows that piece of ---- away! You can get better for less. Trust me!

rocluvr0013

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...ayphotohosting

This crap for 1000??? Looks like rattlecan paint...

rgauder

iTrader: (1)

I've seen some of Rob Wade's work back when he used to own a really nice 67 Acadian Canso. Trust me guys, he can do a lot better.

rocluvr0013

ok im not saying hes a bad mechanic or fabricator, but this isnt 1k$ work, otoh that is the "buy out" price not wut its been bid for...

Dialed_In

iTrader: (3)

It could be better, but $1000 isn't too much when you think about it. Count up all of the bends he used to make it. It looks like he cut and welded pre-bent pieces. They're not cheap then add the time, at least 8-10 hrs. Figure at least $65/hr shop rate which is pretty cheap and you're right around a grand. Custom **** aint cheap.

rocluvr0013

True but on my car it would probably be somewhere around a 2 horsepower increase over my 300 $ exhaust system... (not true dual) 3in mendrel bent header back with high flow cat and muffler (cat and muffler included in that price)

Steve86TA

iTrader: (57)

I would say its a little high on the $,but not totally out of the question.. There arent many cars on here that would benefit from that dual 3" system anyway.

Rob Wade

Completely correct. For the money you spend on "that" system your gains would be minimal over, say even a stock 3" single system, no cat, with a good high flowing muffler. I have run a long tube header to 3" extensions to a 4" over axle and a 4" flowmaster. It sounded great, pulled like crazy right up to 7 grand and the best part, looked completely stock from every angle. No low hanging pieces, no rattles, no hassle from the cops, nothing. The one 4" piece acts also as an equalizing tube (balance tube, x pipe, h pipe,etc) tube to equalize the two sides of the motor. Speaking of which I didn't see one in the system in question. Just a piece of tin welded (poorly) where the two sides bend towards each other. It also cost WAY less than a grand!! Rguader, thanks for the compliment. Who are you? Can't picture the name.

Rockin-Iroc

The only problem I see is that the 3" dual exhaust set up might actually hurt torque on a small block. You'd have to have a very seriously modified small block to require that large of an exhaust. Or a big block.

If it was a smaller system, like 2.5" true dual, that would be adequate for most street applications. Shoot, I run 2.5" dual exhaust on my 465 cubic inch Pontiac and it runs like a raped ape. (1968 Firebird).

In fact, I've got a 2.5" true dual on my IROC, with a very similar set up to this one. But it WAS expensive. Not a grand though. I had a friend who was a good TIG welder, and I mostly just had to buy all the mandrel bends. We cut and welded as we went until we had the system built. But we only went up to the cats. After the cats, I had a custom exhaust shop do because the mainstream exhaust shops won't touch a custom set up.

And that cost me hundreds!

BUT, having had a single 3" before, I can attest to the difference. What I can report on is only a seat of the pants feel, but the BUTTOMETER was definitely pegging. I did feel a difference. The true dual exhaust was a lot stronger.

And mine is routed like this guy's. However, I think 3" is way too big for anything but the most modified engines.

Angelis83LT

I took the picture a a local fabricator and got a price of $650 for him to fab that setup up along with the mufflers. He does custom exaust all day, and has his own mandrel tube bender and such....

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

I just got back from Summit Racing with some mandrel bends, mufflers and tubing for a dual 3 inch setup. Cost me $198 in parts My old single 3 inch cost me $525 at a local muffler shop with regular bends in the pipe.

DNSTA

My thoughts exactaly. I give the Ebay man credit for putting out a product that most 3rd genners would love to get their hands on but he needs to be realistic in the pricing. As stated before, the welds are not the best and the paint is worthless. I think I will send him a message and a link to this post and let him know what his potential customers feel about his product. Hell, he may rethink his price and give us all a group purchase discount!

FlamedROC

looks like a very nice system only thing i dont like about the system is the turndowns on the end of the mufflers. if the mufflers were before the axels then I would like it but after the axels then you should just run it straight out the back..IMO. I would assume that the paint is not for looks but more for keeping rust at bay before installing the system on your car.

Another note is that although his price is high you are paying for the craftmanship of the exhaust. Factor in time, money, materials etc. Look at some of the turbo headers that are out right now I have seen some that just one side for a single turbo go for over $600+ and one guy on here has headers for twins and his are about $900 just for headers. They hike their prices up cause alot of it is hand made and custom. I know there are plenty of shops out there for less but some dont mandrel bend and others are hacks so its really up to the person wanting exhaust to decide where they wanna go.

All comes down to custom, you want custom your going to pay for it.

CP-Performance

I am the builder and seller of the dual 3" system. I have read your comments.
My system is hand built with mandrel bends and 16 gauge aluminized tubing. I do not operate a muffler shop nor do I have the high dollar benders or other equipment.
I originally built the system for my '86 Z/28 that had an N/A 350 and Hooker Longtubes. I removed a half of a second in the 1/4 compared to my single 3" flowmaster setup. Anyway the car ran low 11s on street tires and was my daily driver. It was also lowered 2 inches and I had no clearance issues other than the Longtubes.
Most of you guys in the 14s and 13s would not need this system, if you are in the 12s and have the motor to back it it is time to step up. Same goes for anyone in the 11s and under.
As for the pics, they were shot on my prototype systems. The welds were done with a junk welder at the time. A new welder makes a huge difference.
Turndowns? They cut the interior noise greatly and kept the back bumper cleaner. I also liked the look.

Complaints?? I am not forcing you to buy the system. Enough people have seen my system and had to have one, so I decided I would sell them to anyone that wants one. I have yet to find another muffler shop that will do a dual out the back on an F-body.
Do the math, parts and labor I loose money. But, I enjoy making cars go faster!

$198 for your dual system??? Funny since the Stainless steel mufflers I include with mine cost over $90 each....

If you have any more questions or complaints let me know.
If you want to put your car up against one of my over priced exhaust systems please let me know!

Dzhezkov

iTrader: (1)

None of the shops within 100 miles of me can do 3 in mandrel bends. Only 2 shops even have the tooling to crinkle bend 3 inch exhaust, which is not what I want. I even offered to buy all the mandrel bends from Jegs so they can cut ans weld and the shops look at me like their offended that their 2 inch crinkle bends arent good enough for me.

I looked at a lot of dual exhaust pictures in the sticky of this thread, and I didnt see any that were a million times more awsomer that the ebay one, in fact, Willie's uses tube mufflers, which I really dislike, both in looks and sound. I ordered one of these systems from CP-Performance, because it really is exactly what I was trying to get the local shops to do for me to no avail.

I ordered it with dual Hooker aerochambers, which sound awsome, because I have them on my car currently. My current exhaust dumps before the axle, which gives me less clearance than I'd like due to my car being lowered 2". I currently hate my current exhaust because if you've ever had pre-axle dumps, let me tell you that if there is dirt on the road, and you drive over it, it's going to be on your back bumper and your rear deck after you run over it, guaranteed. It makes a mess out of the car.

Rob Wade

Before you get tooooo bent out of shape. You state your system shown is a prototype that was made for your 86. My suggestion to you is that if you decide you are going to sell your work that exactly what your selling. Your work. Thousands of people world wide are looking at your work which you yourself say "a new welder makes a huge difference". My comments (you could get better for less, trust me) I will still stand by. When I look at "the system" you are advertising and the quality that your "junk welder" produces I have to laugh at the price. Now take your basic design, add in the crossover you spoke of, all those J and U bends used, plus the mufflers and you get some sort of idea about parts cost. Even adding your stainless mufflers to the $198 mention and your still under $350.00. That leaves $650.00 in labour,hydro and gas/wire. I assume you built a mandrel to ensure each exhaust fits correctly. So I would give you 5 hours to cut/fit and weld. $650.00 divided buy 5 equals $130.00 p/hour. Now I could fab that in 8/9 hours, no jig, one off custom AND tig welded. At a shop rate of 72.00 and hour @ nine hours + $350.00 in parts I'm at $1000.00. So when I look at the "picture" of what you selling and see you price I have to laugh. I figure your $1000.00 price is based on what you were quoted before you built your prototype. I think that your statement of "I have yet to find a shop that will make one" just proves you didn't look very hard. I would build those all day long for a thousand bucks!! That said I will compliment you on your design and I hope that your new welder does make a big difference.

Rob Wade

Addition to the above post. Dzhezkov, you said you ordered one. Let us all know how it fits and are you happy with the product. Not stirring the pot I just think it would be a good gesture to the rest of us 3rd gen'rs who might be considering ordering one to let us know if your happy. Kind of like the "venders" boards. Fair evaluations only please.

Rockin-Iroc

5 hours to build that dual exhaust? No way. At least twice that long. It took much longer to build my system, using the same method, cutting mandrel J and U bends and TIG welding them from the headers back.

If you can build that system in 5 hours, buddy, you are really good! I don't think it's possible.
The other point is, who ELSE is making a true dual exhaust system? No one. So basically, you have to meet his price or make your own. Anyway, not to be rude or anything, but it makes sense to me.

When you buy a pre-constructed, mandrel bent Flowmaster exhaust system, for example, they are mass produced, so the cost comes down. When you build something yourself, it is more labor intensive, and he has to make it worth it for himself to even go into the business.

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

Yup, not using the same parts or design but it shows how much one could spend on a dual exhaust building it yourself. The mufflers I'm using are about 36 bucks each from Dynomax. It'll suit my needs just fine as yours would do for others.

Rob Wade

Actually no I can't build that in 5 hours,buddy. Hence the reason I said "I could fab that up in 8/9 hours, no jig, custom fab, one off AND tig welded". Read further, I said "I assume you made a mandrel (JIG) to ensure each exhaust will fit". So if he doesn't use a jig how does he know each exhaust will fit correctly. He doesn't. So therefore he had to have built a jig to his proto type design to ensure each exhaust he fabricates for people will fit the same. This is why it should only take him 5 hours to fab it up! This is where he'll make his money! Since you missed the point of my post I'll say it differently. IF you are going to sell an exhaust on ebay that thousands will see, don't show your, self admittedly, poorly welded (due to a crappy machine) system. Make a system using your new welder so that people don't have a reason to question the welds. Secondly, as far as doing the math I did it. You don't lose money, nobody is in business to lose money. Certainly CP Performance isn't in business to lose money. The reason I asked Dzhezkov to let us know how he likes the system is that I am pretty sure he will have to do some work to make it fit. Every set of headers is different. This means that it is VERY unlikely this system will bolt directly to his headers. I could be wrong but I pretty sure this system will not be a direct fit. This would be another issue in comparing a one off made to your car system as opposed to a "mail order" system. I just can't believe in a state like Florida there isn't anyone who will build a system similiar to this for you for YOUR car. Not a shop with a 3" bender because this system isn't made with one either. Cut and weld.

deadbird

On this point.. I have to agree.
If you tight pantied wine---es can build one and sell it cheaper.. do so.
Don't make a post about someone who is doing it just to b---- about the cost.

After I made the first 'odd' routed dual setup on here.. I explicitly said I would not make a 'production' setup for this reason among a few others. People want hard work that they don't have to for next to nothing.

To re-use my favorite quote of all time...
-Jim85IROC


This is false however.
Even where I know to get pieces parts for pipe and pricing the flanges and mufflers from Summit... I got a grand total of $468 in parts.. less bolts/clamps.. maybe $30 more.

That leaves $532 for wire, gas, paint and your time.
2lbs mig wire.. $6... gas $14 on exchange, paint.. wal-mart $0.98 black.

$511 for your labor. Where is the loss ? Welding that setup wouldn't cost you $10 in electric. Even so... $501.

Maybe I'm wrong though..
Don't care because I can build my own setup down to the mufflers so, I don't have to rely on people like you.

Just my opinoin though.. I really don't care if anyone likes it or not anymore...

Dzhezkov

iTrader: (1)

Oh, there is one in Florida, there's one in Tampa, and one in Miami... and and one in Orlando, but none in my county. I asked the the most reputable guy around here if he'd cut mandrel bends and fit it to the underside of my car, and he flat out said no, he wont cut bends, but he'd be more than happy to custom bend 2 1/2 non-mandrel for about $800. I'd rather have the car towed to orlando, which tacks on more to the price of the exhaust.

CP-Performance is mocking the exhaust to a third gen car, both he and I have 2210 hooker long tubes, so I don't anticipate a problem there. I plan on giving a consumers review on the system, but keep in mind, fabrication that I have to do may not be the norm, there are a lot of things on my car that are different then stock, including the 3550 transmission, ford 9", fuel cell, roll bar, lowered, etc. If CP-performance needs any measurments in any area I'll give them to him so he can make clearance provisions on the pipes, yes, it would be easier if he had my car, but I'm willing to fabricate a small bend here or there if anything conflicts. The only bend I would not be able to change is the large one going over the rear.

So this is what it looks like now, I'll post follow ups in the future.

Dzhezkov

iTrader: (1)

You are wrong, actually, as you and most of the people in this thread are basing the price of the buyout price, which I can understand, since it's in the thread title. The BID price was something around the $649 mark or so, so that means the maker is WILLING to sell all the materials, and his labor, for that minimum price.

To me, $649 is a reasonable bid price for what's offered, and given your own mathmatical breakdown, I can't see why you wouldn't agree, that's what, $100 or so for his labor if it sold on the first bid? Perhaps Joe Bloe godzilla can make a 24kt gold plated dual 3in super thunder exhaust, for $199, but only in some other geographical region of the world. But for me, where I live, ordering this and installing it myself in my car, even if minor fabrication is still required, is better than towing my car for miles, and leaving it there for days to have the custom shop mock it up from scratch.

deadbird

So if some Joe Schmoe was to "buy it now".. the maker would be getting the profit of the numbers I stated.

If you want to sell it for $649... sell it for that.. wtf is with dancing around the price.

Even so.. at $100 profit.. that is still... oh let's see... not a loss in making the system is it ?

CP-Performance

Here is some info on what I do.

Jig? No, I use my '86 for building the systems. I put it on jackstands, set in either a SBC or BBC and most of the time I will use the customers headers for proper fit. I do have a few other sets here for mock up also. I am on my back for most of the build which usually takes me 2 days depending on interruptions.
Again at your figure of $501 in labor I am loosing money. My auto shop rate is $50 per hour, my marine rate is $100 per hour, and better yet, I charge $250-$500 for PCM tuning which usually takes under an hour. I have had no complaints when people hand over their $$ for added performance.
I have sold several of these systems with no complaints. Mostly by word of mouth... Again, find me somebody who will build this system for less.

If workmanship is in question, lets see what you have done.
Here is my latest after 3000 miles of Hot Rod Power Tour.

CP-Performance

2 days at $100. I do not think so. I have a mortgage, a wife and 2 kids to feed.

If you walked into my shop if you did not want to lay down the $1000 you would exit empty handed! I lowered the price on Ebay for advertising and to get the word out.

Looks like it worked!

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

So what is the price at now? I can't open EBAY at work...


p.s.- Nice motor set up. Looks great. I allways thought you couldn't mod thos ramjets. At least not efficiently. Could you do it cuz you program your own ECM?


Either way I say the sytem looks good and I respect the fact that the system is even offered. For the right price I would def heavily consider it seeing as how I have a SBC and 2210s and need pipes for my 500 HP 383.

Rob Wade

Ok, I'm going to call you CP because I don't know your name. After everything everyone has said, bitched about, whined about etc. my only question to you would be why? Even at a thousand bucks I still, would not crawl under my car on jack stands, to fab up that system again. At $649 I wouldn't even drag out the jack! If you are going to reproduce these systems for people save your back and your knees and make up some jigs. At least this way if you "give" away your talents @ $649.00 you won't have to sacrifice your body crawling around on the floor getting burned by sparks as you tack it all together! You will EASILY cut you fab times buy half or more and at least be able to make some money at this and maybe buy your self a hoist with the profits. Best of luck to you man! Dzhezkov you got a hell of a deal at $649.00 if you don't have too much rework to make it fit. Car looks good from the photos.

Rob Wade

"if workmanship is in question, lets see what you have done....
Sent you an email.
Rob

CP-Performance

Thanks guys,

I finally remenber why I quit hanging out on the boards a few years ago.
I used to be an active member of several F-body boards.
Instead of being happy about fellow F-body owners hanging out, bench racing and helping others, alot of you have to always complain about something.
I went through this years ago when nobody believed my '86 would run 11s with an N/A 350. They claimed my Hotcam would not rev to 7000 RPM. And after track day they said I had to be spraying......
Now instead of being happy that there are people making cool parts for their cars, they have to complain about it.
I priced my systems accordingly, If I was lower I would have too many orders to be able to complete. It is priced so I can keep up. It is not my job making these systems, just something I enjoy.

How many of you have bought something overpriced???
Did you really need that $25 AN fitting or would a hardware store hose nipple and a clamp have worked for $1??
I go for the AN fittings for the coolness and reliability.
I also opt for the $400 fuel pump when I could have used a $50 race pump.
There are so many cool parts out there so just enjoy living in a country where we can enjoy modding our cars.

The rest of you that are going to complain about it, go ahead since I will not be on this board anymore.
I have better things to do and more cars to make go faster.

For those of you who want to hear the overpriced dual system in action click this link;

Camaro Video

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

So I don't understad totaly... If I tell you I have a T-56 and want to just dump it b 4 the axle, you can fab it all up for 650???

Xlr8torZ28

iTrader: (19)

There was a guy who posted on here about 3 years ago with a true dual exhaust setup. It was very easy to setup for him since the parts were already available. Here is what he did. He ordered 2 intermediate pipes (from the cat to the muffler) from Dynomax that were for a V6 f-body (2 1/2 " pipe). You can also order it in 2" or 3". You have to know what part numbers you need to order them from Summit Racing (Dynomax wont sell parts anymore). I will see if I can find the part numbers I wrote down. All you have to do is find some mandrel exhaust tubing pieces to complete the front at the headers or Y section, and get 2 mufflers. He mocked everything up with his buddies help and welded the 2 pipes together, so not only were they true duals but in the Stock pipe location, and had better ground clearance than his 3 " pipe did. The intermediate pipes were about $85.00 each, the mufflers (Flowmasters) were about $60 each, and all the other misc. pipe pieces were about $60 total. I was actually very suprised at how simple it was. I think it ended up around $400 total even including getting the welding done, maybe $450 at most. Before he quit posting, he told me that he was about to make it "bolt on" between the headers and mufflers, so he could get it ceramic coated, but I never heard from him again.

http://www.dynomax.com/documents/pas...ral_motors.pdf

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Seems like a good idea but I dought you can stuf 2 3" pipes in the stock location. I would stick with oval for some if not all. But that is just me.

Xlr8torZ28

iTrader: (19)

He said that the 3" may be tricky. But he had already done it with the 2" and the 2 1/2"... It looked very good in his pics...

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Nice, good to know. I will keep it in mind. THX

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Um.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Well on that point ^^^ I do kinda agree. I used a race holly carb with dual inlets and integrated filter when I could have just used a holly red, louder but less than 1/2 price. I like overkill on vital parts.

Xlr8torZ28

iTrader: (19)

Super Chevy did an article on exhaust size one time... If I remember correctly, I think that dual 2 1/2 was good for up to 500HP

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Yeah i read stuff like that someplace too. But my motor is making 500, I also have a NX kit that will put me over that. I wonder what the min size is for 700HP? I think i am gonna stik with 3" to 3.5" dual oval

Rob Wade

Dennis
Heres what I would do. You're never going to use (or shouldn't be!) using 700 or even 500 hp on the street. A dual 2 1/2 system will help the motor down low where your going to want it 90% of the time on the street. A 3-31/2 system is only going to gain you any real performance over 5000 rpm which you won't see all that often on the street. You say you have the facilities and abilities to make a system so make two. One a streetable 2 1/2 dual system that gives as much ground clearance as possible (i know you don't have bumps in your roads) that will still give you excellent street performance and then build a system similiar to evilcartmans to use at the track in street tire/super pro classes where ground clearance won't be an issue and you have to run exhaust.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

I see what you meen. I am not exactly headed for the "norm" on this car. I want to build something over the top kinda thing that would make people say stuff like what you said about never running that kinda power on the street. I do see your point about the 2.5" system. I am going to go with a dual 3" oval i think and tucj and bend it a ton so that it can find its way to the rear without ever getting lower than the collectors. By the time it makes it down there, it will have a lot of bends I think And will most likely have as much restriction as a 2.5" system. The dual set up idea is very cool and I will keep it in mind for when the car is done and needs to really breath at the track.

Xlr8torZ28

iTrader: (19)

I am still planning on doing the dual setup with the dynomax pieces, or Flowmaster since you can buy the pieces from summit also. The only thing I never got to find out is how it sounded from that guy that did it before. AND, I want to try to slip in an X-pipe some where to equalize both exhaust since they are going to end up different overall lengths.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Well if I have enough $ in the bank I am going to order all the pipes for my set up, but wont be putting them in until I get my motor that was finished yesterday.

Within 2 weeks I should have the motor and tranny witting in there and be able to start to make the pipes.

Should be fun

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

Good luck on the project Dennis, can't wait to see how things turn out Thinking of keeping what I have for going to the track and doing an oval setup for regular street driving. Should be easy to swap out systems, just 8 fastners and it's out.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the support, I am gonna need it, haha.

The "set up for the track" and "street" idea def a good one. I have plans to do that too. But for now, I am going to be designing the "street" set up. I guess a track set up would just be round and dump sooner.

I am going to moch the whole thing up in cardboard first. Should be interesting.

always tinkerin

iTrader: (1)

I think that's what most of us are doing. One for street and one for strip. Strip is 3" with race bullets, and street is 2 1/2" with x-pipe and 2 flowtechs. Please excuse my crappy craftsmanship.