Steven89Iroc

Love it or hate it, here's my idea.

To get one of these:




You take a stubby-rear'd 1988 GT one of these...




...then you properly stretch it 11 inches and stuff this engine into it:



...mounted longitudinally mated to a Porsche G50 5-speed tranny (Some people have them handling this much power even though they're rated for less).

Top it off with an IROC-Z dash (much better than the original in that car) and 4thgen seats (much better than thirdgen seats), along with modified IROC-Z GFX and decals, IROC-Z style wheels, throw in a custom lip spoiler, then make the hood louvers functional heat extractors, and you have a 500whp mid-engined 5.7L twin turbo 2-seater IROC-GT that weighs ~3150 lbs. (~3100 with alum. heads) fully optioned that has a better handling suspension, more available traction, and a stronger chassis overall than a thirdgen.

It's very doable, and for less than an insane amount of money (well at least for me since I already have most of the parts). I think the hardest part would be modding the body for the stretch, but nothing one good with fiberglass can't do. I'll take mine in Medium Blue Metallic thanks. (The white one just so happened to be the easiest to PS)

Thoughts?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Where would you stretch it, in the engine compartment?

Longitudinally mounted means mounted the same as in the Camaro, or did you mean transverse? If you wanted to do it longitudinal, why use the Porsche Tranny? Weight? Short length?

500RWHP through a TPI engine? Think that's doable?

And finally, better handling? There's not enough weight on the front end of the Fiero, they float at higher speeds and are really hard to control.

You can get a 3rd gen down to 3100Lbs, i'd hope you'd get that down a lot lower.

Aside from those thoughts, it'd be DAMN COOL alright.

online170

You guys wana talk to this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8fPA...elated&search=

The porsche tranny because it can be modded to accept a chevy 350, and still drive the axles with a longitudinal arrangement in a mid-engined vehicle. Been done. So it can happen in the fiero.

Steven89Iroc

1) Yes, the engine bay, in front of the cradle. It effectively increases the wheelbase. This is done all the time for Fiero based kit Lambos and Ferraris. The body would be a 'Z' like cut to stretch it down low in front of the rear wheel, then up above behind the rear quarter window.

2) Yes, mounted the same way as in the Camaro, but back there. That's why it's stretched. The Porsche tranny mounts like a normal RWD tranny except it has an axle coming out each side near the front instead of a yoke coming out at the rear like ours. Any RWD tranny mounted with the engine back there would put the engine halfway into the cabin, or would require a several-foot stretch and a rediculously long wheelbase.
The problem with any manual transverse tranny that goes into a Fiero is that they're very weak, as in weaker than a T5. I like manuals. The Porsche G50 is rated at something like 220ft/lbs but a few people have SBC's and SBF's pushing 600hp/tq through them without breaking them. Of course I don't think they're dumping clutches at 5 grand either, but they're definitely a lot stronger than the Getrag 282 (Fiero 5-speed).

3) Yes, 500whp through my twin-turbo TPI 350 is very doable. With a decent tune it should be putting out about 450 at the wheels right now. I'm running 15psi. Some more tweaks (better than stock cam and ported heads) would put me there easy.

4) Stock Fieros are floaty at speed because there's nowhere for the trapped air behind the radiator to go except toward the ground, and because they have a stupid-high front chin made worse by a high ride-height. On top of that, a short wheelbase is inherently more unstable at speed than a long one. The concept takes care of the issues by way of a functional hood vent (proven to help on even stock Fieros), an IROC front chin that's lower, a lowered suspension, and an 11 inch longer wheelbase. Even more, there is a bit more weight on the front than the stock Fiero just from the rear changes.

5) ~3100-3150 is an estimate, it might be a little lower or higher, but I think that's close. Honestly, do you think you can you get a thirdgen down to 3100 lbs. with an iron SBC, twin turbos, air conditioning, power locks/windows, cruise, tilt, stereo, and big brakes (forgot to mention above) etc.? I don't really think so. I'd like my IROC-GT to be well optioned.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

Steven89Iroc

Thanks for the link online170, that's the exact setup I'm talking about, except in the car pictured above with the afformentioned differences.

AlkyIROC

Back in the 80's someone put a blown SBC in the back seat of an 80's Olds 442. I think it was in Hot Rod magazine. I've also seen a SBC in the back seat of a Corvair which was a common swap. We have a local racer who has a Fiero. He originally started with a SBC in the back but now has a 455 Buick with an Eldorado transaxle. The Buick engine is lighter than the 455 Olds engine. The Toronado transaxle wasn't strong enough and he kept breaking the chain drive. The Eldorado had the 500 CID engine so it produced a lot of torque.

Best one I've seen yet is a Corvair with an Olds 455 and Toronado transaxle in the rear. The back seat was still functional.

With enough time and money, any kind of swap is possible.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Well no matter what the body is, itll be a stretched Fiero under it

Heres a few links to help you see whats going into this

http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/carcorner/52/
http://www.lambolounge.com/Chassis/T...ube-Shelby.asp
http://www.mantacars.com/registry/mi...ry/kwalsh.html

Various transaxles to consider
I SERIOUSLY suggest you map out your plans before you start buying stuff

http://www.hewland.com/svga/download.htm#
http://www.kennedyeng.com/
http://www.getrag.de/61
http://www.lambolounge.com/Chassis/T...late/index.asp

This is not a Fiero site, but reading the tech info on it should help you build the mid engine kit car
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/archive/f-46.html

This is about the largest site of Fiero info Ive found
http://fieroaddiction.com/

Good luck and I DEFINITELY want ot see your progress on this

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

oh, sheesh, if you want all those options get a cadillac
Ahh, didn't know that about the Porsche tranny.

That's a pretty slick idea. Would you be able to get the engine far enough forward so the tranny lines up with the wheels?
You'd probably want to build a "cage" for the engine bay, so that'll give it strength. Then the body shape can be done with fiberglass.

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

The GMC brand and Revcon brand motorhomes made in the 1970's used a beefed-up version of the Tornado front drive with a 455 Olds engine, and Turbo-400 Trans. I have seen one motorhome with a 502 Chevy big block adapted to the Olds set-up and it was pretty awsome. Most of the parts are available, as these motorhomes are very collectable, and companies are making the replacement parts for them. Many years ago, someone built a mid-engine dragster out of a Chevy Nomad Wagon, and used the Tornado set-up. I don't remember the any details, but the stats on that car were impressive. It was featured in one of the car magazines, I think maybe Hot Rod. Charles

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

I thought of another article in one of the popular car magazines years ago, like 1969-70, or so, called "A Porsch with a Push." Some dude put a 455/turbo 400, Tornado setup, mid-engine mount in a Porsch and made the engine/dog house cover to look like a stack of suit-cases. The outside looked like a stock car. Charles

Guss_B

I've long since wanted to do someting mid engined, and I thought about a fiero, but the fact is they never handled particually well to begin with, and are excessively heavy. I'm saving for a lotus esprit with lsx power

Shift06

It looks like a stretched Fiero with Iroc wheels and hood. Why stretch it even? People put V8's into Fiero's all the time.

JohnBlazeLTZ

Absolutely....

I have seen a 502 in a Fiero GT...it was scary and with the big block in the back....that thing hooked up nasty.

I also seen a guy put a supercharged 3.8L Buick Gran Sport engine in one and it was fast a heck too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVaXk...elated&search=

there are a lot of options here...I don't think stretching it is needed....unless you planning on putting it on a RWD chassis of some sort? Chevette?

BTW...here's one with a TPI in it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfX4kR-Lgwk

1988T/A

One of the reasons for the stretch is high speed stability, and another reason is so he can use the Porshe 930 transmission. In the clip with the Porshe 914, did you see how far that transmission extended towards the back? He needs the room so that the front outlets are evan with the center of the rear wheels, and the length of the tranny. He could stay with the original length, but then he would have to go with an automatic transmission. Also, the reason he wants to go with an '88 Fiero is that the handling is much better in the '88 than previous years as Pontiac got rid of the Citation suspension. Looks like it would be an awesome project.

Steven89Iroc

Thanks 1988T/A, exactly. The only way to get a transverse setup to handle as much power as my Camaros engine makes is to get a really strong factory transverse automatic or to mod the heck out of one to handle it. As I said before, I like manuals. When you see all that power with a transverse manual, they are babying it or they are replacing trannies.
Yes, the '88s got the suspension they designed for it all along, a clean sheet design specifically for the Fiero. A few mods to that and they handle BEAUTIFULLY while retaining a good amount of nice ride quality.

Aside from all that...
I knew some would love it and some would hate it, that's okay. To each their own, but some of you are missing the point. I like the idea because I like IROC-Z's and I like Fieros. Combining the two would make for a car that I REALLY like, and built by me which is half the fun, for a reasonable amount of cash. It would perform much better than my IROC-Z in every way (spinning into a T56's 4th gear anyone?) and actually handle the power that my Fiero wouldn't.
I never said it wouldn't still be a Fiero in the end (though I prefer calling it an IROC-GT ), and I know it wouldn't be the lightest, fastest, bestest handling uber supercar on the planet. It would, however, run quite well in many ways to say the least.

Thanks for the links Pocket, that first one belongs to BubbaJoexxx or something on Pennock's Fiero Forum (which is the biggest Fiero site I know of). That carb'd thing in the back of his is a Caddy Northstar (that for some reason he decided to convert from a nice FI setup. *shrug*). Very cool project he has.
A lot of those links have very good info. At this point the IROC-GT is just a concept but if I ever decide to build it (maybe in a few years if life works out that way) be sure I'll have all the knowledge I need to do it right.

I appreciate all the opinions everybody. Anyone want to get into build specifics? It'll make me think more (as if I need to do that, heh).

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

The late model transverse mounted V-8 Caddy looks like a decent set-up. My dad has two of them, and 98 and a 94, and my 305 TPI is slower then both of those Caddy's. Charles

Steven89Iroc

Yes, they are very decent setups.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

I really dont know what the guy was thinking when he switched teh nice Northstar setup for that... stuff

...And all that silly diamond plate...

I posted his link more as a "how-to" for the basic stuff and fabrication, not his taste in style

Anyways

I checked the door tag for one of my Fieros, top trim loaded with all factory junk, they weigh in at 3,100lbs

Since the 88's had a pretty decent suspension design and your already modifyin the chassis, I dont see why you wouldnt drop ALOT of weight even with a slightly heavier engine

Side note... Ive never really felt the "floaty" feel with my Fieros at higher speeds
All of my GTs came with an ugly chin in the nose

Then again I never really kept them at +120mph for very long

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

The only thing I was implying about the Caddy transverse V-8, is that it might fit well in the Ferio body, weight, and size wise. The engines are fairly compact, light weight, and produce a good amount of power. And for the record, I would use a pre-northstar version. Charles

Will's Fiero

I'm not sure the 282 is weaker than a T5. I've heard that T5's break if you look at them cross-eyed and I've driven a 282 into the 12's in my Northstar Fiero (~250 whp).

The Cadillac 4.9 is a pile. Whoever said he wants that... doesn't. The Northstar is vastly superior in every way except weight. The 4.9 makes 200 HP stock and hot-rodding it is like trying to get blood out of a stone. It's only good points are that it's very light and it fits in a Fiero very well.

And the guy who wants an LSx powered Esprit... That sounds like a good choice... just don't expect it to be that much lighter than a Fiero. The Esprit is a significantly larger car than a Fiero.

I think the Fiero GVW is in the 3100's, but curb weight is down in the 2700-2800 range.

Don't worry about what other people think and build what you want to build. (But my stock wheelbase car will still kick your tail in teh AutoX). Remember, that any time you add size, you add weight...

Steven89Iroc

FWIW, I've watched a 91 Z28 with a T5 run several 12.0-12.1's on slicks with his heavily nitrous'd 305 TPI when I lived in AZ. He'd done it before that, too. However, I don't think either tranny would hold a single ray of hope to make it down the strip a couple times even on street tires in this concept. Currently the TT TPI should be laying down around 650ft/lbs at the wheels. With ported or alum. heads and a bigger cam the max torque might decrease a bit while the hp increases, with the stock TPI. That would be ideal in the IROC-GT, but still be beyond a 282 or a T5.

My fully optioned stock '87 GT (the silver car in the pics above) weighed in at 2780 with a couple gallons of gas and no spare. I added a little from there for a base to start with, then added the weight of the extras (2.8 to TT L98 difference, 282 to G50 difference, estimated frame stretch weight, estimated body addition weight, estimated brake upgrade weight). I came up with 3150. Heavier than a stock Fiero yes, but lighter than my IROC-Z.

Will, your N* Fiero may kick the concept in an AutoX, but it should be a different story on a nice big road course or on a long, straight road. Less interesting to some, even on an IROC track. :P [/benchracing]

Will's Fiero

The stretched Fiero does have pretty nice proportions.

Steven89Iroc

Do you mean aesthetically or mechanically?

Hey get back to work. Come to think of it, I need to continue building a spacecraft myself.

Will's Fiero

I'm taking a day off today. What are you doing on teh intarwebnets?

I just shipped two spacecraft and you've only built one... wth?

Steven89Iroc

DOH. Eh, heh, well I am waiting for my flight wiring to get QA'd afterall.
You built some bricks to float around a few miles up. I'm building one that is going to fly to and float around the MOON. The coolest part is that it's designed to CRASH into the moon when it's mission is over. ...shipped two bricks. BAH

You didn't answer my first question. Inquiring minds want to know.

Will's Fiero

Aesthetically it's not bad.

Mechanically, you're talking about taking more mass and spreading it over a longer wheelbase and a longer car... double whammy against moment of inertia, which is the whole reason the engine's in the middle. Keep if compact, even if you can't keep from adding weight.
The biggest reason that Diablos and Murcielagos weigh 4000# is that they are HUGE cars.

Steven89Iroc

I had to ask...



(I know that already)

Will's Fiero

Stay tuned for previews of the next episode of the Will & Steven show...

Steven89Iroc

And that's the Steven and Will show.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Ugh, that would be the AWD systems right there. Yes, they are heavy cars, but their big V12's and AWD systems add weight too. A Murcielago should be about 3700lbs curb weight (manual trans). Not over 4000.

Steven89Iroc

Yeah, Will knew that, he was just making a point without being accurate about it.

Still, 3150 is a LOT less than those things weigh. Isn't that just 20 lbs over the curb weight of a Z06?

malkavian

back when I was 16 I had a few vw bugs. I ended up buying a modified 72. when I went to look at it, it had a toranado transaxle and a v8 didnt buy it but drove it for all of 10 mins. My dad wouldnt let me buy it lol.

2camaros1kid

its already been done mutiple times and you dont have to streach it at all....
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/384897 that has the tpi...
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/466655 ramjet
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/789315 prob. the best race car ive seen in a while... plus a lot of cool info about it

Steven89Iroc

Read the thread.


malkavian, a friend of Will and me in Florida had a fast Bug, but he just built and turbo'd the stock engine, hehe. I'm partial to the Porshe drivetrain swap for those. I bet it would be very easy to pull the front wheels in a rear engine V8 bug. Too easy, in fact. heh

Caboobaroo

iTrader: (1)

When I was in college, we had a drag racing team and we did numerous project cars to help fund our team. One of our project cars was taking a Northstar engine and stuffing it into a Fiero. At that point in time, we had the only known Fiero with a Northstar and a beefed up Fiero 5-speed that ran and drove. It had an aftermarket computer but getting it wired up into the rest of the car was a bear. I eventually got it all figured out but took countless hours of staring at schematics, drinking a few pots of coffee, long nights after doing my homework and studying to get it down to a plug-n-play setup. I still have my binder full of notes for it too... somewhere.

Twas a very quick little car but it was still very difficult to drive. You had to take off just right from a light of you'd either A) kill it like a total fool, or B) swap ends on yourself and be staring at the person behind you

ryan91rs

iTrader: (1)

wow i don't really like fiero's but that guys yellow one (the link) i couldn't stop reading, that guy knows his stuff!! unbelievable!

flyboy367

i think if you do that it would be one of the few cars you could stick gullwing or lambo doors on witout being gay. just in my thoughts if im going thru cutting a frame and whatnot i would take the extra time to balance it on all 4 corners so the rear weight of the car is pressed on the floorpan area. it will turn and brake a lot better