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Hey all,
just wonderin. I was thinkin about my old 89 GTA and had a question. I remember that my ex-wifes step father told me he bought his GTA new in 87 (the first year?) He said that he couldn't get the 350 TPI with t-tops and that wasn't avaivble. He told me the salesman said it was beacuse they thought the frame couldn't handle the stress with the added torque of the 350. So he ended up buying the 305 because he wanted t-tops. When I told him I bought my GTA new in 89 with the 350 and t-tops he didn't belive me. I think the sales guy hosed him because he probaly didn't have a 350 GTA with t-tops in stock on the day he was there and those guys always sell what they have on the lot. I told him I thought the first year of t-tops in a T/A was 76 and that was the last year of the pontiac 455 which I would think would have way more torque than the 350 TPI. Anyway I know the frame didn't change between 87 and 89 so whos right? I was just curious.
thanx
By '76, the big block ponchos were smoggers w/ onlymderate torque and low HP/CI. The TPI 350 would probably be a higher output engine. I agree w/ IROCZ on the 350/TTop combinations, with the respective years. And yes, the TPI 350 was hard on the frames of the TTop 3rd gens. Torque is good!
Originally posted by butkus Hey all,
just wonderin. I was thinkin about my old 89 GTA and had a question. I remember that my ex-wifes step father told me he bought his GTA new in 87 (the first year?) He said that he couldn't get the 350 TPI with t-tops and that wasn't avaivble. He told me the salesman said it was beacuse they thought the frame couldn't handle the stress with the added torque of the 350. So he ended up buying the 305 because he wanted t-tops. When I told him I bought my GTA new in 89 with the 350 and t-tops he didn't belive me. I think the sales guy hosed him because he probaly didn't have a 350 GTA with t-tops in stock on the day he was there and those guys always sell what they have on the lot. I told him I thought the first year of t-tops in a T/A was 76 and that was the last year of the pontiac 455 which I would think would have way more torque than the 350 TPI. Anyway I know the frame didn't change between 87 and 89 so whos right? I was just curious.
thanx
Your exwife's Stepfather is telling the truth. When I bought my 87 350 IROC I was told from the dealer that T-tops were prohibited on 350 cars because of the torque. Same reason you couldn't get the 5 spd either. I also believe the order form disallowed the t-tops as well but I do not recall for sure. Needless to say, this somehow wasn't enforced because a short period after mine was delivered I saw a 350 Irocs with t-tops. I wish I would have bitched and screamed about not being able to get a five speed........maybe I would have.
Going in the wayback machine right now. In the June 1996 High Performance Pontiac magazine there is a nice little article on a '92 Formy, Jamacia yellow, 350 with T-tops! Page 41 if you are interested.
According to an article i read on another website, 350 GTA's were indeed avail. with t-tops, but sales staff were told to discourage the t-tops due to flexing in the uni-body. and incidentally, there were 9 350TPI/5speeds built, but never sold to the public. they were built for GM execs, according to a Co-creator of the 1LE and avid camaro builder.
i met this guy that lives around me and he has a 88 or 89 l98 w/ t-tops i didnt think of it at first when he was showing me/ telling me about the car but it is indeed t-tops and soon after we finished talking i got to thinking that i thought that t-tops werent in a combo w/ the l98. go figure
Yeah, my second IROC was a metallic blue/gold T-top 350 car. It had every option. I traded it as partial trade for my race car. Kinda wished i kept it. All but one of my other IROCS were 350/T-top combos. I just refused to have it any other way. i only did the trade because this one was a 5 speed.
I would also like to confirm the availability of t-tops with a 350 in '92 Formulas. I just bougt one in October. Vin # confirms it is an original 350 car.
This subject has come up several times and I've not jumped in to dispute other's info but I test drove a red 1987 IROC 350 with t-tops when they were new. My best friend from high school was a salesman at Haley Chevrolet and I visited him in 5/87 while on leave and he told me about the new IROC 350 they had just received. He wanted to sell it to me and have me trade the 1980 Camaro I had. I was a beautiful red/grey IROC L98, loaded, and definitely had t-tops (we took them off for the test drive) and stickered for about $18,600. The sales manager came over and said he "wouldn't give such a great deal on this 350 IROC-Z to just anybody, but he would work me out a great deal since I knew Andy and was a Marine). I didn't buy that car (insurance $$$, I was 22) and waited until 5/89 to buy my current Camaro RS from Andy. Many years later (1994) I had a single mom with 2 daughters living next-door to me in an apartment complex and she drove a worn-out red 1987 IROC that was a L98 car (I checked the VIN) and it too had t-tops. The car wore it's original faded paint so there wasn't much chance of it being a Frankenstien. I remember this car well as it was almost identical to the car I test drove and I offered to buy it from her several times. I also remember one of her daughters had just gotten her license and the poor car was just getting more ratted-out all the time. No, I do not have any empiracle evidence beyond my memory and I do not have any photos so I cannot prove any of it, but they were the real deal.
__________________ Gina - 1969-2008
I miss you every day....
My updated CarDomain site! http://www.cardomain.com/id/murco1989
One-owner 1989 RS, restified in 2003, starting over and rebuilding it later this summer!
I used to have an 87 GTA with 350TPI and T-Tops. One onwer car before me and never touched. Now I wish I"d kept it, well, even more so now that is, I already beat myself up for selling it.
Also, early 70's f-bodys came with column shift auto's but are rare to find and not many people belive it.
I used to also have a 73 formula 400 with column shift auto and it didnt even have a hole in the floor for floor shift. Thats how I originally became aware that it was an optiuon, because I had one, and searched to find oiut wether factory or not, and it was, but a rare option it was as well.
Also, early 70's f-bodys came with column shift auto's but are rare to find and not many people belive it.I used to also have a 73 formula 400 with column shift auto and it didnt even have a hole in the floor for floor shift. Thats how I originally became aware that it was an optiuon, because I had one, and searched to find oiut wether factory or not, and it was, but a rare option it was as well.
Oh man, my first car was a pea-green 1970 Formula 400 with a pea-green interior, column-shift auto, with no console and radio delete!!! I think it was purchased to race but was all original and untouched when I bought it from a 60+ year old farmer. My second car was a 1976 Formula 400 4-speed loaded to the gills and it had a second console between the rear seats! I've only seen one other f-body with it and I do have pics of this car...
I dunno if I'm gonna sound dumb, but the people with the 92 Formulas with T-Tops who say they have a 350, are you sure? Because IIRC, if the Formula had a 350, it had Formula 350 logos, not just the plain Formula logos like in the picture above.
87-89: 350&T's. My IROC has T's and a 350.
90-92: No T's with a 350.
I dunno if I'm gonna sound dumb, but the people with the 92 Formulas with T-Tops who say they have a 350, are you sure? Because IIRC, if the Formula had a 350, it had Formula 350 logos, not just the plain Formula logos like in the picture above.
87-89: 350&T's. My IROC has T's and a 350.
90-92: No T's with a 350.
As I posted above, my '92 Formula is an original L98 car, as confirmed by the VIN. The data sticker indicates L98 and CC1 (t-tops). VIN on data sticker matches VIN on windshield base. There can't be much more proof than that.
Ah. I did some research after making this post, and found that the mid-91 and 92 Formula 350's could come with T's. I wonder why they changed their mind on that model. The General sometimes boggles the mind.
Ah. I did some research after making this post, and found that the mid-91 and 92 Formula 350's could come with T's. I wonder why they changed their mind on that model. The General sometimes boggles the mind.
As long as you ordered crosslaces, you could get the L98. I'll NEVER figure that one out.
I dunno if I'm gonna sound dumb, but the people with the 92 Formulas with T-Tops who say they have a 350, are you sure? Because IIRC, if the Formula had a 350, it had Formula 350 logos, not just the plain Formula logos like in the picture above.
87-89: 350&T's. My IROC has T's and a 350.
90-92: No T's with a 350.
As long as you ordered crosslaces, you could get the L98. I'll NEVER figure that one out.
To answer you unasked question, it had to do with weight as to why you could get a L98 w/ T-tops as long as you got the crosslace wheels. Formy = lightest F-body to get a 350 and crosslace wheels = lightest wheels, so together it got it in under the gas guzzler tax level, which was based on weight :-)
87-89 L98: T-Tops available.
90-92 L98: No T-Tops.
Not entirely true...in 1990 they offered "some" cars with T-Tops/350 but didn't advertise this...in 1991 they officially never went with t-tops with a 350..look around on the gtasourcepage and you'll see...but mine are C&C anyhow though...
__________________
1990 Trans Am GTA
- 1 of 93 1990 GTA's with Beechwood Cloth Interior
Not entirely true...in 1990 they offered "some" cars with T-Tops/350 but didn't advertise this...in 1991 they officially never went with t-tops with a 350..look around on the gtasourcepage and you'll see...but mine are C&C anyhow though...
It is true for Camaros. Firebirds are a slightly different story, I'll edit my post.
T-tops (CC1) + 350 (L98)
Camaro
1987 - Pretty common
1988 - more unusual
1989 - About half
1990 - 1992 NONE
Firebird
1987 & 1988 - AFAIK Exported cars only
1989 - About Half
1990 - NONE
1991 & 1992 - Formula 350 only (when equipped with black cross laced wheels)
And oh yeah, that is a Formula 350 Convertible in my sig...
John
__________________ 87 FORMULA - 5.1 LB9/A4 T-tops 3.73 Modified (Yellow/Black)
87 FORMULA - 5.0 LB9/M5 T-tops 3.45 (Yellow/Gray)
89 FORMULA 350 - CONVERTIBLE 3.27 All original (Red/Gray) www.3rdgenformula.com
To quote from Frankie Rider II and the gtasourcepage.com for GTAs, the following:
"Yes, and No. Initially for 1987, only 5.0L U.S.-bound GTAs could have T-tops installed; they were not, according to the order sheets, available in any Firebird model with a 5.7L engine. Again, this was a weight issue dealing with the CAFE ratings. GTAs destined for Canadian delivery in 1987 were not bound by the same requirements, and were available with the 5.7L engine and T-tops.
According to Pontiac order sheets and production records, the only GTAs subsequently available with both the 350 TPI engine and the T-top option were the 1989 model cars; the GTA that year enjoyed a large build number with both options. Starting in 1990, all 350 TPI GTAs were available as hardtops only. I have seen evidence of a few 1991 5.7L GTAs built with the hatch roofs, but that is only single-digit production."
This may apply to other models as well. I might clarify that as Camaros are somewhat lighter, they may have escaped the CAFE ratings.
I dunno if I'm gonna sound dumb, but the people with the 92 Formulas with T-Tops who say they have a 350, are you sure? Because IIRC, if the Formula had a 350, it had Formula 350 logos, not just the plain Formula logos like in the picture above.
87-89: 350&T's. My IROC has T's and a 350.
90-92: No T's with a 350.
I used to own a red 87 Formula 350 w/ T-tops....it had "formula 350" decals on the side
To actually answer the question about the 91 & 92 Formula 350's...
The history of the decals for the Formula 1987 - 1992
1987
LG4 - Formula on Doors, 5.0 Liter on Hood
LB9 - Formula on Doors, 5.0 Liter F.I. on Hood
L98 - Formula 350 on Doors, nothing on Hood
1988 - 1990
LO3 - Formula on Doors, 5.0 Liter F.I. on Hood
LB9 - Formula on Doors, 5.0 Liter F.I. on Hood
L98 - Formula 350 on Doors, nothing on Hood
1991 - 1992
LO3 - Formula on Doors, 5.0 Liter on Hood
LB9 - Formula on Doors, 5.0 Liter F.I. on Hood
L98 - Formula on Doors, 5.7 Liter F.I. on Hood
Actually this has been covered before.
__________________ 87 FORMULA - 5.1 LB9/A4 T-tops 3.73 Modified (Yellow/Black)
87 FORMULA - 5.0 LB9/M5 T-tops 3.45 (Yellow/Gray)
89 FORMULA 350 - CONVERTIBLE 3.27 All original (Red/Gray) www.3rdgenformula.com
The information is from the Parts and Illustration catalogs... can it be wrong... possibly, is it wrong? doubtful. The decal is almost the same as the ones used on the side of the Trans Am by the front fender air extractor. I believe many dealerships put it there as the 5.0L cars had an emblem, and people wanted it there, or just uninformed dealers. In the end, it would be an oddity as the car was a "Formula 350" otherwise you got a "Formula" It would be very redundant to have the "Formula 350" decals on the doors and then 5.7 Liter F.I. on the hood. in 1991 when they dropped the Formula 350 name (which stuck when you look at craigslist or anyone else selling a 91-92 Formula with a 350) you only had a Formula with a 350...
The Formula 350 was a Formula, there was not a separate option as such, but badge wise there was a difference. Its confusing I know.
As I thought about this, One thing that struck me is there are too many low miles Formula 350's without the Hood decal. On the one hand it would seem possible that some got the decal where others did not from the factory. I have spoken to people who have known of people (notice the indirect connection) who owned the car since new and claim that it was there.
This would be very inconsistent with any other car ever made, there are too many cars out there without the decal to state that some got it and others did not. In the end I realize that basically it would have been easier for dealers or customers/owners to install the decal themselves, than for so many people to remove the decal or to have so many accidentally forgotten in the factory. In the end it would not make sense to remove the decal... Also (I know that things and brochures from one year to infer on other years is not good practice) consider that the 1987 Dealer book has the hood scoop without the Decal on the hood and the car they were using for the photo shoot was a Formula 350....
I looked at the 1991 Pontiac dealer manual and at the time it was printed, T tops were not available as an option with the 350. In the bulletin section at the rear with the added on pages during the model year, an options package including the "crosslace" wheels is outlined. So it doesn't appear that ordering those wheels opened the door to get the T tops on the 350, they are simply an element of a single options package that included the wheels and the T tops available with the 350 motor. I can post more details if nobody else here has the sheet to scan.
I used to own a red 87 Formula 350 w/ T-tops....it had "formula 350" decals on the side 
