forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

(not sure where this goes, but this is probably the best place)

When I was younger, I would always look at cars like the Camaro and Mustang and think "man, they're super fast"....but when it comes down to it, pretty much any economy car will beat us out on the street with no sweat. I got killed by a Dodge Neon the other night. But you know what we got over them? Our cars are much more fun to drive and look a heck of a lot cooler.

What keeps you guys goin when a little four-banger hands you your **** on a platter and then you realize he wasn't even racing you?

ChevyGuy87

Personally, I got rid of my V6 Camaro and put a real engine in a Trans Am. Seems to work good for me.

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

I plan on doing that, but I still see v8s get beat all the time...our cars just seem to be too freaking heavy to compete on the street with the newer cars.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

I have a 1991 Camaro RS, I pulled the 305 TBi motor out and put a bone stock OLDER 1987 TPI 350 in it. After a posi rear end and a TH350 swap with a stall the car was doing 14 flats consistantly off spray I found out fast that this was a pretty tall order for most newer cars. The motor combination is topped off with long tube headers, dual exhaust, MSD ignition, Port work to the plenum and runners, and all the free mods. I installed a Walbro 255lph pump when I first did the TPI swap so I'de have room to grow and I've got an NOS 5151 nitrous kit on it. On the 150 jetting the car runs consistant 12.6's and recently ran a 12.54 and a 13.84 on motor. All of this with a motor pushing the 200,000 mile mark and considered antique by today's engineering standards. So overall it's not that our cars are slower than the hopped up imports or domestics of the day, it's just that we have to work harder to make them fast; I myself find a good ammount of joy in being the underdog. One day I'll have an LS1 in a fourth gen Camaro with a 6 speed and by the time that happens something new will have come along that I'll have to mod to keep up with but for now I'm having alot of fun proving that the old equipment can still run good.

drag1LE

Actually, I'm fairly certain you can make a small block car go fast for a lot less money than what it would take to get a four-banger to go as fast.

Getting beat by Neons stinks. Make that car faster man.

I have lots of fun spanking little fart can machines.

kaptinkafeen

iTrader: (2)

Which neon did you get spanked by? The SR4T (the turbo/intercooled cars) are not to be taken lightly. For what they are/where (I don't think they are produced any more) they were very quick - and if you were up against one that had the boost cranked, well then a stock third gen wouldn't fair so well. Those cars remind me of the old Turbo'ed OMNI's - Shelby's GLH's. They were a force to be reckoned with like the '86/'87 GN's were. Today's technology has advanced so much, that a lot of the vintage muscle is being put to shame.
-Andrew

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Dude, you need some small block power.

drag1LE

I'll take 'em lightly while they're watching my tail-lighties.

Psycho_91Camaro

Actually most newer cars weight about the same as our third gens or wiegh more...

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

Really? Then what would you say is the reason for the older cars getting stomped by the newer ones, just newer and more efficient technology?

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Newer, more efficient technology and more thought out designs. Most newer cars DO weigh more than there older counterparts (and we're not talking a neon vs' a cadillac here). Newer cars have alot more options people have become accustomed to and usually have alot more electrinic equipment etc. Not to mention Unibody construction is heavy and crash testing isn't taken nearly as lightly as it was years ago. If you'll notice we're on the dawn of a new hot rod era. We have the promise of a fuel that will be high octane and avaliable at the pump (E85) GM's consistantly making cars that put there flywheel rated HP to the wheels, and a nostalgia craze has landed on the automakers. Hopefully we can do this one right and keep our cars going faster and getting safer at the same time.

MikeH

iTrader: (10)

Haha...yeah i sure get tired of getting spanked. By all those newer cars out there.

Those neons are sooo bad ***!

84L69TA

Hmmm....welcome to the world of modern technology

tpi-hearse

iTrader: (27)

Think of it this way a newer car is just that new..most older cars(and 3rd gens) are for the most part tired and not what they were when new....also newer cars such as neons are lighter by about 700lbs

okfoz

I run an honest 14.80 with traction in the quarter mile with a 305, I still need tuning but its respectable for now. Of course if I do not spin the tires to clean off the crap I only ran a 15.1.

14.8 will beat MOST economy cars. I figure once I save my money, get my 350 or 383 ind install some nice heads, intake etc I should run in the mnid 13's pretty easy. My target is 12.9... Then I will be as fast as a LS1 car.

Midwest Muscle

I like them both, and there's a good market for both. But it almost goes without saying that the new "X" will outrun and outperform its "X" original. But the old rides have a real soul about them ...

Mike M

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

Amen. Nothin like riding in a '67 Stingray, and they're so much different than a C5. Just something about them! It's the same with any car, in my opinion.

"This new music ain't got the same soul, I like that old time rock 'n roll" -- Bob Seger (different topic, but same principle)

OneManArmy

iTrader: (1)

perfect example is my friend just bought a 2006 lancer evo MR. freakin 2.0L engine pushing 286 hp and tq does 0-60 in 4.5 seconds and is just a damn fast car. honestly puts mine to shame but I wouldn't trade hime anyday. GTA all the way!

krisb410

iTrader: (9)

forkvoid,

You just need to get rid of that V6, not that my TBI v8 is all that fast, but the open cutout is intimidating the civic and neon drivers.

taonindo

with somwhere under 200 hp stock our cars were a joke (with the old stock motors) get a new v6 with a blower and knockem dead...you shouldnt have any problem getting 300 to 400 horse from a well prepared 6 banger .....tao

okfoz

I think we need to keep in perspective the fact that ENGENEERING & TECHNOLOGY palys a huge role into the performance of new cars. Take the following for example was LEADING EDGE

1967 - Mechanical FUEL INJECTION
1977 - Some EFI systems are appearing, notably on the Cadillacs & Nissan "Z"
1987 - TPI - Batch fire ECM.
2006 - SFI - Now they have it so all of the cyl will not fire under some conditions to save fuel

1967 - What the heck is an O2 sensor?
1987 - 1 O2 sensor for entire engine.
2006 - 1 O2 sensor per cyl.

1967 - ECM???
1987 - ECM = Engine Control Module, 16 Bit
2007 - PCM = Powertrain Control Module, 32 bit or 64 bit who knows, controls everything from the engine to the transmission shift points.

BAR NONE, my 87 Firebird is a better car than my 77 Electra 225 was, and definately better than my 67 Riviera is. It is comperable to my 83 Riviera, but not as nice as my 90 and definately not as nice as my 95 Riviera. As for personality my 87 is killer, I love it like it was a Ferrari, and I drive it on nice days only and have a ton of fun...

JOhn

gon8go

my 89 5spd t/a is al stock and still pretty quick. most of those guys in the 4bangers with the 900lbs body kits are afraid to look over at me at a stoplight.
the few that went for it i left in my dust. but most of those guys spend their money on the outside and leave the engine alone, just a giant spoiler and trash can sized tailpipe. in fairness i havn't come across any really seroius tuners in my town but i got smoked by an 06' charger daytona.

kaptinkafeen

iTrader: (2)

1986 - Buick was way ahead of the game - SFI, turbo and air to air intercooler - most were still trying to figure out TPI/batch fire MAF and then MAP, to make them a bit better. Turbo buicks of the 1986-1987 were at the time very misunderstood, until you got blown away by one....
Just my
-Andrew

PAformula

iTrader: (1)

Another way to look at it, think back to the 4-cyl cars of the 80's. The escorts, cavaliers, and k-cars. For those of us that remember driving them, they could barely get out of there own way. Technology as come a long way since then and its not fair to our awesome thirdgens to compare them to the new technology on the road today.

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

Newer engines are simply more refined which allows them to create more power with less cubes. Our SBC motors are somewhat crude in comparison. A crude 5.7L may get beaten by an extremely refined 2L. However the smaller engines are MUCH closer to their max output from the factory compared to our motors. Refine a 350 to the level of most newer 4cyl motors and watch out.

The simplicity and somewhat un-refined design of our motors is made up for by more cubes whereas the small displacement of newer 4cyl motors is made up for by their level of complexity and advanced design features.

Compare the cost of building a 300HP small block and a 300HP 4cyl.

gon8go

that pretty much says it all, even older ferarris are slow compared with much less expensive modern cars. when you buy a third gen you are buying an expression of your personality, there will always be something faster no matter what you have.

OneManArmy

iTrader: (1)

old 4 bangers? man you guys were lucky All I had was an 1.0l I3 in my metro.... lol

ntomsheck

iTrader: (1)

I've raced a plymouth neon before with full exhaust upgrade, cold air intake and manual transmission and I beat him. He knew what he was doing though because he kept up pretty well. I don't know why you got beat. I think our cars have a greater potential of kicking some serious *** compared to the other cars, its just about upgrading it, and knowing what you're doing. I believe that the newer cars can gain a greater ammount of horsepower than we can by bolt ons, but once we start doing stuff like runners and heads ect we can fly past them.

freestylzz

Air_Adam

The LS1 comes to mind... Its basic design is very much like the Gen 1 small block (90* V8, pushrods, 2valves/cyl, single camshaft) but its heavily refined. Those motors can potentially make retarded HP and TQ figures compared to what any modern 4 banger is capable of.

okmaro

A guy I know raced a modded SRT4 Neon at a drag strip in an el camino with a 400 sbc w/open headers, he beat the neon but not by much. Had the guy driving the neon not spun out his tires he probobly would have beaten him.

You have to look at the fact that a car like the SRT4 Neon is almost at its max in terms of mods. You cant say, I want more power so I will throw on a supercharger, it already has one. With our cars you can add any number of mods from stroking to superchargers to keep up with the new crowd, it just takes a little more thought, but not enough to get discouraged.

Camaroz29

iTrader: (3)

Just ditch that 130hp V6 man, that is what is killing you.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The reason the topic doesn't really fit anywhere is because it's non-technical, and this site is strictly tech.

Most thirdgens are slow because of the technology, emissions, marketing, etc. The early cars are held back by the tail end of a gas crisis and detuning to meet emissions standards. The mid-years were victims of early fuel injection technology and compromises to make the cars affordable. The later cars actually aren't that bad, but they're overshadowed by the massive production numbers of the early cars and vast numbers of TBI and V6 cars that aren't much better then the 160hp 350's of the mid 70's.

At any rate, regardless of what thirdgen you're driving performance shortcomings can be resolved easily, it's only a matter of money. I'd recommend nitrous as the fastest quick, easy, dirty, resolution. A 125hp shot on a 3.1 will humble most 5.0 Mustangs with bolt-ons.

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

Our cars can be stripped down to about a 2800 lb sleeper with a 350 V8 in them, if you are strictly aiming for being fast. For looks, our windshield is less expensive and not 63 degrees like the 4th gens, but the 4th gen dash can be made to fit. The aftermarket hoods and spoilers look amazing on thirdgens.

Brakes can be upgraded, TH350's, or T56's can be swapped in, about any sbc/LT1/LsX/BBC V8 can be swapped in(with a little time and fabrication), 12 bolt or 9" rears can be swapped. Etc., etc, the list goes on forever. Overall, thirdgens have a huge potential, probably more than any other street car. With time, money, elbow grease, parts, and brains you can take a thirdgen a long way either in looks or speed.

If you are even thinking about getting serious, don't forget the #1 thirdgen upgrade - subframe connectors.

lwrdr2

or a quote i heard years ago growing up. Theres no replacement for displacement.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Unless you're talking about forced inuction...Check out "how to install a turbo" in the v6 forum, same thing can be done to your 2.8...c-ya neon!

novadk13

the 20+ pounds of boost helps those things out a lot, I can build a forced induction sbc that will blow that thing away for less than what he paid. O well everybody has thier nitch of what they like, I just so happen like 3rd gens for some reason

CharcoalBird

iTrader: (4)

Definetly check out "how to install a turbo"...besides nitrous, the turbo is one of the biggest power gains for the dollar, and not all that hard to install. From those who have installed turbos on their v6 f-body, your looking at around 250-300hp @ 9lbs of boost on a completely stock motor. That's what these newer imports/domestics have been doing to make their cars so much faster.

It's what i'll be doing untill I can afford not to have my car for as long as it takes to swap in a v8, then i'll just re-use the turbo on my v8 and be putting out some serious power.

92fireformula

Older cars (3rd gen) are for men newer cars like the eclipse,neons, civics, etc. are for women. You would never see me driving one of those cars because there small and it doesnt feel like your in a car that can give you an adrenaline rush like a 3rd gen but thats my opinion.

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

Solstice/Sky would probably be the only NEW car I would want that has a small engine for a daily driver gas saver. 1. Its RWD 2. Its GM 3. A V8/T56 can fit in it(for future upgrades)

Other than that, firebird/camaro are about the only cars with RWD and V6's, right? For GM anyway.

I'm thinking about doing the 3.4 swap on my V6. I could get a little more power from the swap,replace the high mileage V6 thats in there now, not have to swap trannys or really anything else, and still have plenty of room for a turbo.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Do you suppose the GTO woul do better if they had a v6 version for some of us "finnancially challenged" folks, so that we could "upgrade"? GM let this beauty slip into the dust without flinching! --Although props for offering 2 V8 models!

Camaroz29

iTrader: (3)

There is no engine choice. You get the LS2 or nothing.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Then why do some GT's have a 6.0 badge and some have 5.7 badges?

Camaroz29

iTrader: (3)

Because in 2004 they got the 5.7 LS1 with the plain hood and single exit exhaust. Starting in 05 they got the 6.0 LS2, hood scoops, and dual exhaust.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Either way don't you think GM woul've sold more with more engine options---like thirdgens?

Camaroz29

iTrader: (3)

Maybe, but GM wasn't going for an affordable car for the masses with the GTO. It was like a cheaper CTS V, going more for the M3 type segment.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I can't agree with that, you got a 400hp car for 40k, that's supposed to compete with the 'stang/challenger.The m3 is far more expensive, NO?

Not to mention they CANNED the GTO!

What's left of the traditional GM products?(light car, BIG motor)
---with the exception of 'vette

Camaroz29

iTrader: (3)

That was their target market, and if the car missed then that is on them. The GTO is coming back in '09 anyway as the Camaro's Pontiac counterpart.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Where'd you find this out--want more data....f-body is back, or 'maro gonna be based on the caddy bod also?

Camaroz29

iTrader: (3)

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