Krik

iTrader: (4)

Which is
Cooler:
Faster:
Retains better value:


Pick your own category, and tell us why your choose your choice!

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

a 1le firebird or the firehawk, no question about it. the firehawk is much faster than the basic 1le cars

1le camaros are much more plentiful. I've only ever seen 1 firehawk, and 1 1le bird for sale ever, camaros are on ebay all the time

i think the 1le birds are the coolest, simply because you never see them.

talover111

Krik

iTrader: (4)

I like the Firehawks too That said, I wouldn't trade my Camaro for one. How does that make any sense? I have wanted a Camaro since 1988, practically begged my dad for one (he helped my buy a 1982 Ford Escort). I have been pining for one for years till I got the 90 model I have now.

Values = twisted?!?

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The Firehawk is pretty much the ultimate thirdgen. Nothing else comes close.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

why is the fire hawk that much better? I dont think i have ever seen a firehawk up close? What makes it faster then say the z28 with a 305 tpi 5 speed with a 3.42 rear end? I can see it being alot more rare but why the ultimate 3rd gen.

Krik

iTrader: (4)

As much as I like it too, the TTA is a beast of a car. Not all V6s were slow! HAHA

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Firehawk option for standard content: Engine: 4-bolt main cylinder block, forged steel crankshaft, 1053 alloy forged steel "Pink" connecting rods, lightweight high silicon cast aluminum pistions, steel billet hydraulic roller camshaft, high output aluminum cylinder heads with stainless steel valves, high flow, down draught, TPI intake manifold and stainless steel tubular exhaust manifolds and dual catalytic exhaust system. Drive Train: 6-speed corvette ZF manual transmission, Dana 3" low-mass aluminum driveshaft, Dana 44 limited slip rear axle with 3.54:1 final drive ratio and 8.5-inch ring gear, 1LE brake system, 17x9.5 inch cast aluminum wheels and high durometer suspension bushings

I think this answers it did these cam with the slp t-ram didnt it and came with 350 hp and 390 ftlbs

Drew

iTrader: (58)

25 units vs 1500, the Firehawk wins again.
Mostly red with gray interior, vs white with gold trim and tan interior.. Firehawk for the win.
V8 growl vs turbo whistle - almost a tie but I think most people could agree that the sound of a V8 is preferable to a V6 even if the 6 is turbocharged.
17" wheels vs 16" wheels. Advantage Firehawk.
No nonsense Formula body vs "fat Elvis" Trans Am body... Firehawk.
6spd manual vs 4spd automatic overdrive... Firehawk.

With all due respect to the TTA... The Firehawk comes out ahead, in my opinion. FWIW the 85-90 Trans Am body is my favorite of the Thirdgen line. I just really don't like refrigerator white... That's coming from someone who's owned 3 white thirdgens (including a white 86 T/A), and another off-white. The tan interior and gold trim just looks trashy, like a guy in a white suit with a huge gold chain. I just personally don't like the layout and there's something a little off about a high performance V6.

A 1LE Camaro is just another LB9/5spd or L98 G92, just with bigger front brakes and no A/C... And usually with the basic interior and few options. I'll take the nicer car that takes a little longer to stop, thanks.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

yeah i answered my own question once i actually looked at them. I wish the 91-92 z28 came with those options that would be perfect

did the firehawks come in t top? I would guess no

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

I don't think there are any with t-tops, but there is one Convertible Trans Am Firehawk. The last one built, iirc.

And Firehawk > 1LE Camaro in every aspect, so much so I wonder why it is even a question.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

they should have built all the 1le cars like that, you would prolly see our cars in much better shape

frankinmaro

iTrader: (4)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYrI_NhpFAI........ nuff said

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

There is only 1 with Ttops. Its white and has the comp package. I have paper pix somewhere in my Firehawk 3ring binder.

Im lucky enuff 2 have seen about half of them in person

http://www.firehawk.org/article/1351.html

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Ah, thanks. Never seen pics of the white one before. No shock that it is one of the non-red ones.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Just a FYI I don't know who tunned the Hawks but on the ones I have driven and ones Ive heard about from the owners the drivability just flat sux.
Most of them have been retuned but the ones that havent been.. yowza

Drew

iTrader: (58)

^^^ This. It has T-tops for the same reason it's not red. The car was shipped to SLP from the dealership to be converted. It's one of the few cars that weren't ordered specifically to be converted.

I'm sure there are more pics out there, but here are a couple and a description from http://www.firebirdgallery.com

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Dual airbags? Do they mean like SIR airbags or something else?

Drew

iTrader: (58)

If I had to guess, I'd say someone just was ignorant of the thirdgen airbag system.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yup, typo. I saw that car @ a Pontiac show years ago. I still have wood.
When I buy my Hawk it will be that one.

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

Odd, you have clearly seen more than me but SLP used to say the owner of SLP used to test drive each one until it he was happy with its performance and how the tune was before it was allowed to leave

8732

theres a really nice 1le firebird in dundalk md for sale. has like 62xxx miles i believe all original 305 tpi and 5 speed manual. he wants 3k. i crapped my self when i seen it, i think thats the cleanest not trans am i have ever seen that was a third gen.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yeah, it doesn't say much about his level of tuning detail. I meet Ed and Dave at a lunch during SEMA several years ago.
Didnt get a chance to talk w them about the Hawks tho.
On a side note I had a SLP chip in my 89 formula 350 4 a day back in 92 and it was terrible. It had a 5k revlimiter!? I lost a lot of ET and mph. The parts worked tho.
I talked with one of their chip burning guys back in the day and he didn't sound very impressive. Buuut then it was all new and we had a big learning curve.

triplec

hey 8732, can you give some contact information or an ad placement for the 1le in md. i'd be interested.
thanks.

8732

hey ill get that number for you later and some pics. and post them up. this thing was super clean. its not on craigslist unfortunately. its just a clean *** 90 firebird formula on the side of the road with the 1le and its for sale

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

how do you know its a 1le car?

8732

i december i was going to buy it and i went over there to take a look and he told me everything about the car

triplec

8732 - thanks, as i have been searching for one. you can pm me the number because i would like to talk to the owner.

thanks again!

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

for the price, he is clueless (hence my question), or its not a 1le. my guess, its not a 1le

if its a 1le, for 3k, i'll be there tonight with cash and a trailer.

two-if-by-sea

iTrader: (22)

If it sounds too good to be true... oh nevermind. The owner said it was a 1LE, so it must be.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

oh, btw, the only made 4 trans am 1le cars in 90, no formy's, so its no 1le, big surprise.

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

Honestly I really shouldn't be that surprised since like you said it was all new back then and the fact they were tuning the correct tables and meeting smog has a lot more to say then some of the other chips back then


That would be cool to have talked to them and meet as many people in the early stages but I have met so called experts in other fields and its a bit disappointing when you start to see they aren't half the hype

Gumby

Title should be

CAMARO 1LE vs FIREHAWK vs TTA

And ill take the TTA

Krik

iTrader: (4)

There are so many 3rd gens that I want it weighs on my soul.

Jason E

You too?? As I've been collecting parts for my 86 TA, I've often been thinking that if I bail on this one the parts will be good for a later GTA...or TTA...

1BADDAM

Cooler - 1LE because it is a factory car specifically built for racing - Firehawk is a tuner car and with 25 units isn't even considered a production car by anyone's standards.
Faster - this one is pretty obvious - Firehawk
Value - again obvious - overall Firehawk

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

It has a RPO code, B4U... so how is that not a production car? GM has outsourced cars in the past, like the TTA, the Verts, and 4th Gen WS6, SS, and Firehawks.

1BADDAM

3rd gen Hawks didn't have a GM factory warranty, therefore its a tuner car. All above you mentioned including 4th gen Hawks had a factory GM warranty.

85 ZXX

iTrader: (1)

I agree! This vid makes the point very clear!

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

speaking of firehawks, does anyone have a good underside photo showing what they did w/ the zf clutch slave? Just wanting to know where they rotated it and also what they did w/ the cags solenoid

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

You do know what RPO stands for, right? Regular Production Order?

I would be willing to bet that the reason for the SLP warranty was due to the logistics of training however many thousand GM dealerships in doing warranty work on just a few highly modified cars rather then it having anything to do with it being a Production car.

okfoz

1) Many year 1LE camaros had a production of less than 25 or so when you do not consider the B4C (police cars)
2) A production car is any car that is Produced, the question comes in by whom.. And the fact that none of our cars were technically made in a Factory, they were made in an Assembly plant.
3) The TTA, Firehawk and all of the convertibles were NOT MADE IN HOUSE BY GM, they were all converted off site.
4) The Firehawk still had a Warranty. I have never heard anything to the contrary. (could be wrong) but 20 years later WHO THE HECK CARES?

Cooler: Firehawk for those who know
Faster: Firehawk 13.2 qtr mile vs 1LE 14.5 qtr mile
Retains better value: Firehawk (find one for less than $50K and I might buy it), 1LE find one for more than $20K that has sold lately.

By looking and walking around a 1LE, you would never be the wiser, unless you looked at the brakes. If you saw a firehawk, you will know by those pesky badges... WAAAAY cooler.

They made 5 colors. of the 25 there was 21 Red ones. 1 White, 1 Blue, 1 Teal, 1 Green.

EOD

Krik

iTrader: (4)

Here ya go

Heres another

I am not disagreeing with you, just proving a point. Firehawks are as rare as chicken teeth. 1LE cars are at least being sold so if you want one you can get one. I wouldn't trade mine for a Firehawk.... but i am blinded by love

okfoz

There was a Red 92 or 91 Camaro 1LE IIRC that sold at BJ for $41K a few years back. it has been sitting in a showroom for the past few years, be. The 27,500 is ridiculous IMHO, the 59K is insane, I did not think the cars were anywhere near worth that... not saying it did not happen, but someone really had to want the car. It is almost like there is a group like they had a few years back on the Mopars that were buying and selling for ridiculous prices just to push the prices up..

The thing I like is the prices are definitely going up, you can almost say skyrocketing. I was not aware of those cars, but they both appear to be nice examples. The one car with 10K on it would be worth twice that if it was a Hawk.

Interesting thing tho. The LB9/M5 outsold the L98 car. I am not sure if it was due to mileage, condition, or what but it was about double the price... It was not the color, usually Red outsells Blue.

Krik

iTrader: (4)

If you are saying what I think you are saying... there is some conspiracy that is going on th inflate the costs of Third Gen Camaros, or specifically 1LE Camaros then....Wahoo! Hell Yeah!! I don't want to sell but I love having it be worth big bux

okfoz

Anything is possible, I agree, the higher the 1LE's the more for the rest of the cars...

Of course the prices with inflation... If the car new in 1990 was $20,000, and in 2010 Dollars is worth, $33,367.25 you broke even. So in reality the increase in value is not as great as one would think... It will only get worse, but as of right now that's where we are at. Honestly I think its probably closer to $35K to break even with the Consumer Price Index, but 2011 is not available yet.

Interestingly what I paid for my 1987 in 1998, is about what it would be worth today in the same condition as I bought it... More or less it is a wash, as the increase in value has remained the same as inflation.

okfoz

The $39995 price tag of a 1992 Firehawk would be equivalent of $62,160.44 in 2010, ultimately the value of a nice hawk is about the same as inflation over the past 18 years. However back in 2005 or 2006, you could have purchased a 91-92 Firehawk for $22000, so in the past 5 years you could have made a killing...

Gumby

Just use Nascar rules, gotta sell 5000+ or its not real

there, all done......

okfoz

LOL, then that would exclude the following:

1 (1992) SLP Firehawk Convertible
1 (1992) SLP Firehawk T-top
1 (1989) PAS TTA Notchback
1 (1989) PAS TTA Test Car with Hardtop & Leather Interior
1 (1989) PAS/ASC TTA Convertible Test car, Cloth Interior
1 (1989) ASC/PAS TTA's Convertible, Leather Interior
1 (1989) VHO Formula - Dealer Modfied
3 (1988) Trans Am 1LE
3 (1989) PAS TTA's Test Cars with T-Top & Cloth Interior ( A fourth was made into a convertible See above)
3 (1988) VHO Formulas - Dealer Modified
4 (1986) Trans Am L69/M5 (NON Players)
4 (1988) Camaro 1LE
4 (1990) Trans Am 1LE
4 (1992) Trans Am 1LE (NON R7U)
5 (1992) Players Trans Am R7U
6 (1991) SLP Firehawks (Hard Top)
9 (1991) Players Trans Am R7U
9 (1989) Trans Am/GTA LB9 Convertibles
13 (1986-1991) Tojan Convertibles
14 (1990) Players Trans Am R7U
15 (1989) PAS TTA's Hardtop & Cloth Interior
------------------107 cars above this line .0048%--------------
16 (1989) Formula LB9 Convertibles
17 (1992) SLP Firehawk (Hard Top)
17 (1989) Players Trans Am R7U
20 (1988) Players Trans Am A4U
22 (1986) Players Trans Am A4Q
22 (1987) Players Trans Am A4U
22 (1992) Formula 1LE (May include some Firehawks)
24 (1989) PAS TTA's Hardtop & Leather Interior
26 (1989) Trans Am 1LE
28 (1990) IROC L98/A4 1LE
29 (1992) (US Sales) LB9/M5 GTA
30 (1992) Players Camaro R7U
32 (1991) Players Camaro R7U
34 (1990) IROC LB9/M5 1LE
37 (1983) Daytona Trans Am LG4/M5 Hardtop
39 (1989) PAS Hard Top TTA's
------------------522 cars above this line .0216%--------------
42 (1989) ASC Formula 350 convertibles
46 (1991) Formula 1LE (May include some Firehawks)
46 (1991) Base Firebird W/M5 Trans
53 (1987) Players Camaro A4U
53 (1991) Trans Am 1LE (does not include R7U)
63 (1986) Players Camaro A4Q
65 (1989) Players Camaro R7U
71 (1988) Players Camaro A4U
74 (1986) Camaro L69 (11 were Non Players Cars)
------------------1,035 cars above this line .0436%--------------
78 (1990) (US Sales) GTA LB9/M5
86 (1992) 1LE Camaros (Non B4C non R7U)
104 (1988) ASC Firebird Convertibles
104 (1991) Trans Am Convertible LB9/M5
111 (1989) Camaro 1LE
116 (1983) Daytona Trans Am LU5 (CFI)/A4 - Hardtop
123 (1986-1991) Tojan Hard Tops (includes T-top cars)
141 (1989) ASC L98 Trans Am & L98 GTA Convertibles
144 (1992) (US Sales) L98 GTA's
164 (1991) (US Sales) LB9/M5 GTAs
174 (1987) ASC Pontiac Firebirds
187 (1989) PAS TTA T-Top & Cloth Interior
190 (1992) (US Sales) Trans Am W/L98
195 (1991) Camaro 1LE/L98 (includes B4C cars)
205 (1985) Camaro IROC LB9/A4/G92
263 (1987) Camaro RS, SC & LT Convertibles
283 (1991) Camaro 1LE/LB9/M5 (includes B4C cars)
295 (1990) Camaro IROC LB9/M5/G92
366 (1989) (US Sales) GTA LB9/M5
403 (1992) (US sales) Formula 350's
451 (1991) Trans Am Convertible LB9/A4
------------------5,103 cars above this line .230%--------------
483 (1983) Daytona Trans Am LG4/M5 - T-tops
502 (1985) 1C5 "California IROC"
571 (1992) Z03 Heritage Camaro Z28/L98 (all had G92) (571 not complete number)
589 (1992) Camaro B4C all with 1LE
592 (1991) Camaro B4C (note not all B4C cars were 1LE cars in 1991, 1LE equipped B4C cars should have more value)
595 (1990) (US Sales) GTA W/L98
607 (1992) Camaro Z28 LB9/M5/G92
662 (1983) Trans Am L69 5.0 H.O.
718 (1988) GTA Notchbacks L98/A4, LB9/A4 & LB9/M5
729 (1990) RS Camaro Convertibles
------------------10,580 cars above this line .455%--------------
733 (1991) Camaro Z28 LB9/M5/G92
744 (1987) IROC-Z Convertibles
777 (1992) Trans Am Convertible A4 & M5
809 (1988) (US Sales) GTA LB9/M5
904 (1991) Base Firebird Vert W/A4 Trans
------------------------------------
1,254 (1992) Z28 Convertibles LB9 A4 & M5
1,265 (1992) Firebird Convertibles
1,294 (1990) IROC-Z Convertibles
1,321 (1989) PAS TTA T-Top & Leather Interior
1,321 (1991) (US Sales) GTA W/L98
1,321 (1984) Trans Am Recaro (Y84) L69
1,665 (1985) Trans Am L69 5.0 H.O.
1,500 (1984) Trans Am 15th Anniversary
1,864 (1983) Daytona Trans Am LU5(CFI)/A4 - T-tops
1,859 (1988) SC or RS Camaro Convertibles
1,900 (1990) Formula, GTA & Trans Am W/L98
------------------------------------
2,384 (1987) Formula 350's
2,497 (1985) Z28 L69 5.0 H.O.
2,415 (1990) IROC-Z Hard Top L98
2,562 (1992) RS Camaro Convertibles
------------------------------------
3,038 (1992) Z28 Hard Top L98
3,203 (1991) Z28 Convertible LB9 A4 & M5
3,223 (1983) Z28 L69 5.0 H.O.
3,245 (1989) RS Camaro Convertibles
3,280 (1987) LB9/M5 GTA's
3,761 (1988) IROC-Z Convertibles
3,940 (1989) IROC-Z Convertibles

dannyboyemt

wow...i never knew that firehawks were such BEAST's back then. Even by todays standards those performance numbers are very respectable. Just incredible.