iroc4life_

Boy dont ya want to test drive them all?

KMK454

I need a time machine and a class on hotwiring trucks...

eseibel67

Does this pic have a date? Location?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Lotta similar good ones here...

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...od-1986-a.html

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

That day was an Epic Win.

scottmoyer

That was a truckload of 87s if I remember correctly. This was at a gathering or show of some sort. I've seen this pic before.

Jason E

Sad to think that every one of those cars has likely been crushed into a soda can MAYBE one is still alive????

Its amazing to me that with all the choices out there today, there's still nothing that does it for me like a third gen. May never be again, either. That design was just so right...

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

While the styling is great, its not a "timeless" design that always looks current. There are few that fit the mould for that. Still, I love the thirdgen styling. Hence, why I bought one.

KMK454

I think they can start to look more timeless without the decals. I like to see them with the correct stock decals, but the tone on tone striping, IROC-Z logos, two tone paint jobs and bird decals really date these cars. I like those things, that's not a put-down at all, but they are very 80's in their look. The body lines, proportioning and shape hold up pretty well, though.

One thing that easily dates them: size. Park a thirdgen next to any new sedan or coupe and it will likely tower over the thirdgen.

KMK454

It comes down to soul and character for me. New cars are getting to a point where they are so good at everything that the mechanical aspects of the machine are insulated from the driver. Mechanical brilliance does nothing for me if I don't control and interact with it. Old cars have character; not everything is up to date or perfect, and certain things on them cannot escape the era in which they were built. Cars are typically more fun when driven close to their limit; older cars usually have limits that can be explored on public roads with fewer consequences.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

I'll agree with this for the most part. For me after a stressfull day taking a single on-ramp at the limit, balancing the car on a knife's edge with the tires squealing makes it all go away.

The TransAm's limits are higher than the G6's are, even with worse tires. However the steering response and brake pedal are too vague, and the chassis gets upset. Where the G6 is controllable and predictable at the limit, the GTA is on cliff ready to totter if you make a mistake. The G6 inspires confidence and urges for more throttle, later braking....etc.

Now, the G6 is only 5 years old, and has a mere 26,000 miles vs the GTA's 117,000miles and 23 years of crappy owners who didn't respect it. In all honesty knowing what I know about cars now i should have walked away but I was caught up in the desire to have a high option TA. I am slowly fixing/replacing worn old parts, but there are alot of them and its taking a while.

I'm about to put some serious power into the car, and I'll be redoing the suspension to match. We'll see how it handles once it has newer/upgraded parts on it with SFCs. I'm sure it will be a dramatic improvement, but I don't know if it will change the its personality as far as handling goes or just increase its limits.

Jason E

Couple things...

1) I personally believe the general shape of a third gen does have a "timeless" quality to it. I wholeheartedly agree with KMK in that the stripes date these cars a ton. You look at a GTA, or a '91-'92 RS, and that style simply looks RIGHT...even today. What dates them a little are the small wheels and the long overhangs from the short wheelbase, but those are minor quibbles. No one whines that a '57 Chevy has big overhangs Start gooping on fake IROC hoodscoops, screaming chickens and side Formula or IROC stripes, and it dates these cars quick.

And yet, I have an IROC with side stripes and a TA with screaming chicken, and I wouldn't have either any other way I probably would've bought a DX3 IROC had I been an adult and bought one new, but after years of staring at IROCs as a child, squinting to see the TPI logo on the back bumper? Stripes all the way


2) I completely agree as well about the "soul" aspect of a car being far more prevalent in old cars. No further need to comment...what you guys said is really true...new cars are just too isolated for me. My wife loves gliding down the road, which is why of all my cars, the 4th gen is the one she prefers because its the most isolated. Personally, I like driving my 88 TA the most because of the stick and the WS6 package is a great ride/handling tradeoff, even today.

3) I parked my 86 in front of a '11 Camaro SS at my local cruise night on Wednesday, and took a couple side profile pics of them together. Its amazing how much bigger, fatter and unwieldy the SS looks. My 15s look like trike wheels compared to the steamroller 20s on the SS, too!

4) As I said on another board the other day, I had a '10 Camaro SS as a demo for a week. I was never able to open it up and test the limits of the car on my daily commute. My 86? I can wring it out on an on ramp getting on the highway. There is something fun about being able to use all of a car in a more accessible way. I couldn't tell you how ultimately fast the '10 was because I never got the road to really try it!

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

The only thing that keeps me with a thirdgen is the styling. 85-90 TAs are my favorite, I LOVE the way they look. But if I could have a modern car under that skin with all the ammenaties and performance of newer cars I would gut it without regret.

eseibel67

Timeless is a word that gets dropped around a lot when discussing automotive styling.

By definition, timeless means that something never gets old, like the Mona Lisa, The White Album, or a 1955 SL300 gullwing.

Third gens fall short of truly being timeless. They are firmly planted in the eighties - big glass hatch, wheels that provide more cornering power than the body structure can take, weak on performance, and a buzzing interior.

But the third gen's strong suit is styling. Low, wide, aerodynamic. By a broader definition of timeless, third gens are still beautiful today because of their balanced proportions.

My toy car is an 2001 WS6 convertible, and my son's car is a 1988 GTA. Other driver's stare, point, and catch up to get a better view of the GTA ten times more often. It may just be a factor of it's age, but I think the reason is more due to the styling. The average driver these days doesn't know Jack **** about what year a car is.

itsMikey

LSX and 4th gen stuff gets it pretty close IMO

Jason E

Cornering power, "weak performance" by your definition, and a buzzing interior have absolutely nothing to do with timless styling, with all due respect. I remember reading an '88 road test in Hot Rod of a Camaro Sport Coupe and a Formula. More or less, they said "if you think a '57 Chevy still looks hot today, these are the cars for you. These cars have a timeless style that 30 years from now will still look good standing still."

Their words, not mine. I don't know of a better looking car from that era, and its reflected in the values of them. A clean IROC has a higher average transaction price than a comparable condition/mileage Corvette...and the Corvette probably sold for twice as much when new.

flippermtc

iTrader: (1)

I agree with KMK...The striping does for the most part age our cars. I do think the 85 TA's in black & gold are the exception.
My IROC is a stripe delete car and the clean shape is what people notice for sure.

florida_gators

iTrader: (2)

For some reason, I've always been a big fan of the blue body and silver bottom TA. My wife thinks it looks dated, but I love that color combination.

Jason E

Wanna buy mine?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Unless you've got a G6 GXP, I'd have to disagree with you. I've never driven a GXP, but of the regular G6s I've driven, you can have them. They're fine family commuters, but for a performance car they're trash. Small brakes, and the worst fake feeling electric steering I've ever driven. It feels so artificial. Combine that with the poor weight balance of FWD, toss in a pile of understeer and then toss in the tiny brakes and it all rolls up into a package that I'd rather avoid.

My Grand Prix Comp G drives infinitely better than any G6 I've driven, and I still think that as a performance car, the handling sucks compared to my thirdgens. The only reason it's "predictable" is because it's got a ton of weight sitting over tiny front tires (and are engineered to understeer), so they give you plenty of warning when you approach their very low limits.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

G6 GTP, 6spd. I say bring the L98's on. FWD can't launch for crap compared to RWD or AWD, but from a roll it won't matter. The suspension is so much smoother, and while there is more body roll it doesn't get upset on bumps and its easy to steer. I've had it at Road America in a hot session. I didn't trust the brakes (factory ceramic pads) so I limited top speed to 125mph but I was busting 85mph through the Kink in the wet.

I think the GTP's are also the only model to use hydraulic power steering instead of the electric assist, and the steering feel and response is much better than the electric units. I've driven a G6 with the electric unit, the hydraulic is worth every bit of the parasitic loss.

I did say the GTA's limits were higher, but its harder to drive on the limit. The steering is numb in comparison, as are the brakes. But I also said this is a 23yr old car vs a 5 year old car. The other reason is the automatic vs 6spd, the automatic in the GTA does whatever it wants regardless of the consequences in a corner. So you gotta be either crazy confident to mash the gas in a corner, or supremely stupid. Cause if it downshifts mid corner there goes the backend.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Oh, for sure. My '83 is lowered 2" and I'm almost getting uncomfortable driving it at night. Everyone's oncoming Xenons are exactly at eye height.

Park next to a porky 5th gen, and you feel like you are next to an SUV.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

yes, this is true. G6 is a little further forward in this pic than normal. So it looks a little extra large, but it still towers a good 5" over the GTA. The GTA is factory ride height, not lowered a bit.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I feel the same way Jason. Nothing new pushing my buttons the same way, unless you're talking a Ferrari 458 Italia?

I think my HUGE disappointment in the 5th gen has really helped rekindle my longtime infatuation with 3rd gens.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

That picture and others like it have been around for a while, they're still favorites of mine.

The design of the Third Gens is timeless, something that will always be admired. As mentioned, this was even said when they were new, which is pretty rare. The cars looked back and forward styling-wise without copying anything too closely. One thing that the Chevy designers would not compromise on, is that these completely new cars had to be unique, striking, and futuristic looking at the same time while having enough "Camaro" in them so that people would immediately know what kind of car it was, even without having the Camaro name anywhere on them.....they succeeded. They were designed with passion and performance in their lines. The studio even started with the Z28 and "decontented" the other models to distinguish them from the rest of the lineup, not the other way around.

I also don't think that stripes and decals date them anymore, not in a time when Camaros, Mustangs, Challengers, and Chargers are coming from the factory with the same kind of stuff brand new. I see alot of aftermarket things on them in the same style that our cars had too, or even more over the top for that matter! I've been asked if my car was a newer car a few times and the look on peoples faces is hilarious when they find out that its basically a 25 y/o car. Those that know though, always say that they wanna see the cars just the way that they rolled out of the factory, looking all correct and nostalgic-like.

As for handling, no matter what newer car I've driven, I have never felt anything similar to the capabilites and driver feel of a 3rd Gen, not even a 4th Gen. While new cars are a little easier to drive, it all seems less connected and more mechanical feeling, maybe more assisted or something. I don't know, there is just something lost in the translation. They lack the road machine feel. Behind the wheel of a 3rd, I feel like the road is mine for the taking and the car will do what I ask of it, not the other way around instead. They feel as if they were made for the spirited driver. It should kept in mind that regardless of when they were released, greatness was put into these cars.

Iroctopless

On every word. The above has totally been my experience.

PS; Even with the old square headlights, many people are surprised it's not new!

t/adreams

iTrader: (1)

Preech it, brother!

In addition to your comment and one previously made- the car is timeless in my opinion. Last week I was filling up the tank in my Trans Am befor work and a kid (maybe 18 at best) goes, "MAN! Thats a hot car, what year is that? 2009? 2010?"

I almost felt bad informing him that the car was older than he was.

But I digress- even kids in my neighborhood (10-12 years old I'd presume) give me thumbs up and "cool car dude!" and all stare as I drive by. I slip it into neutral and rev it up- gotta make sure to hook 'em young!

formula forever

it shocks me that alot of younger kids around town 7 -about 12 walk past my driveway and say nice firebird. its awsome that these young kids know and respect it. Third gens must be respected.

KMK454

What new cars have you driven? I agree that driving a thirdgen is an absolute blast and older cars in general have more road feel / connection than new cars, but I can easily name 4 newer cars I've driven (two of which I've owned) that had similar seating/driver feel to the thirdgen, greater roadfeel/driver connection, and more handling performance.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Personally, I absolutely loved the way my C4 drove. It's probably the car that I'll always compare everything else to when I determine handling quality and road feel. Night and day above my third gens on both counts, and better than any C5 or C6 cars that I've driven, with the possible exception of the C5 ZO6 that I drove recently. My 91 Corvette had the perfect feel. Absolutely perfect steering feel, with just the right amount of effort and road feel, and adhesion limits that I could only exceed if I was doing something dumb. Seating position, pedal position, steering wheel position, and especially the distance between the front & rear wheels was just perfect in that car.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

I'd say the newest performance car was a GTO, any other newer cars were Impalas and the like, Cadillacs, etc., which are decent handling cars. I hate the heavy sloppy feel. No Corvettes. What did you own that felt like a 3rd and more nimble KMK454? I'd like to try a 5th Gen but I doubt I'd be impressed.

eseibel67

80's Corvette with a 6 speed would suit me just fine.

5th gen is very nice, fast and comfortable. But somehow very sterile. It looks great, performs great, but driving impression gives it the feel of a modern mini-van.

I own a fouth gen that is also very powerful and feels fabulous under all circumstances.

But styling and driving exerience in third gen trumps them all. Third gen is rough riding, good handling, noisy, and stunningly beautiful.

IMissMy86TA

I just have to post to this thread...


I have loved the look of the Hyundai Genesis Coupe and have heard they were better in many ways to the current mustang & camaro. That piqued my interest. I drove my black 88 GTA (21K mi) to a local Hyundai dealership and asked to drive the best GC they had. I took the track model out. I knew if I drove my car they would be more likely to let me have it. It was 1PM and the salesman said as long as I get it back before 5 he was fine.

It had 20 miles on it. I took it out and I drove it hard. The speedo went up extremely quickly (2012 Hyundai Genesis 3.8 0-60 mph 5.4 Quarter Mile 13.8) and heres the rub...
My GTA FEELS so much faster (5 speed - TPI about 6.5sec 0-60) I was surprised how slow the genesis coupe felt.. I will admit that the chassis on the GC feels much better. the car is extremely tossable and hard to get out of shape even when I drifted the car, which I did... It would make a horrible snow car but so do ares.

I will one day buy a GC for a daily driver. but I will wait for them to depreciate... Really, our cars "feel" more connected and powerful than they really are and I dont ever want to get rid of my GTA.. not saying I won.t one day but wow.. I would reget it. I used to have an 86 TA with an AUTO in HS.. but... I gotta say.. I am so glad I have a 5-speed car.. the way she feels when gearing down the the control anytime/anywhere is amazing.

Jason E

As a fellow 88 TA 305 TPI/5 speed owner, I completely agree. The feel behind the wheel is that I'm hauling ***, even just driving normally. It isn't until I get in my LT1 that I realize I wasn't going as fast as I thought

Its too bad more people didn't own 350 or 305 TPI/stick cars. They are a lot more fun to drive than the ubiquitous 305 TPI/AT cars. I love my 86, and its a great cruiser...but its a total slug compared to my other two. Again, it feels pretty good until I slide into another one, then realize how fast I wasn't going

Tom 400 CFI

I agree with all of the above, except that I do prefer the more forward seating position in the F-body over that of the Y.

But yeah, I bought an 06 'Vette and allthough it produced killer numbers on the track(s), it was utterly boring on the street. My current car (the '92) is way, WAY more fun to drive. I feel "engaged with the mechanism". I love it.

MikesZ28

Diddo here. Bought a brand new '84 L69 Z28 when I was 21ish. Never should have sold it. Who could've known? I've never found anything that handled as well since. It was so much fun to drive on regular roads. The 5th gens feel numb to me, never mind the price. Still looking for an '82 or '83 CFI Z - see my post in the Camaros Wanted section.

IMissMy86TA

CFIs? ouch.. arnt those very hard to keep running? how about an H.O?

KMK454

I've owned a 2005 C6 Z51 and a 2008 C6 Z06. My dad has a 2002 C5 Z06 and I've also driven the following cars: 2009 CTS-V Sedan 6-speed, 96 Viper GTS, 2006 911 Carrera S 6-speed, 2005 GTO 6-speed, 2002 BMW M3, 2010 BMW 135i, 2009 Challenger SRT-8, BMW Z4M Coupe, and an 03 Mustang Cobra.

When I finally got the thirdgen I'd been looking for, I was surprised at how similar the seating arrangement and cabin feel felt to that of the Corvettes. The armrests, wheel position, and laid back seat were instantly familiar. My best way to describe the feel was a C4 'vette after two beers, a C5 Z06 after 6 beers, or a C6 after 8 beers (if you could feed a car beer). And what I mean by that is the thirdgen has a hint more "slop" in it, but that's not because the car is bad; it's because we're comparing different eras. The thirdgen design process began in the late 70's. It's really not fair to compare cars of different era. I was driving mine today and it's a blast tossing it around some tight turns; the car is really impressive for its era and I love driving it.

But if you think the thirdgen is nimble, drive a newer M3, a 911S, or a BMW 135i. Driving a 911S will forever ruin your perception of corner turn-in on other cars. The Corvettes I've driven/owned were more nimble but the wide tires and stance of them numbs the experience a little bit. I'd say if you want a modern take on how the thirdgen feels, your best bet is a C5 Z06. That car had just enough rawness coupled with amazing performance that it was a blast to drive.

The cars on that list that I was disappointed with were the Viper GTS and the Challenger SRT-8. The Viper had absolutely lethal performance, endless character, and rockstar street presence, but it drove like a damn truck. It could put up numbers all day but you spent most of your time fighting the car and living in fear of spinning it. The Challenger SRT-8 couldn't escape its 4200 lbs and drove like a squashed Dodge Ram. The CTS-V also weighed 4200 lbs but it's 556hp made you forget that.

Here's one take away: Horsepower does not equate to character and soul. In that category, I'd rate the thirdgen towards the top of the cars I've driven.

Here's a pic or two:


Lowered, cammed, full exhaust, 425rwhp:




Friend put Fikse FM10s on...

KMK454

C4s are awesome. If I was a billionaire, I'd put a few C4 ZR1s in the garage next to a few more thirdgens. I also agree with you that the C5 Z06 has that awesome driving feel.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Ah see KMK, I'm really not a Corvette person. It seems though, that Chevy is working on a Z28 model focused on handling to compete with the BOSS 302 at the moment. That car and the 580HP ZL1 might be something worth checking out, even though they will be pretty heavy.

In all fairness, I think to really compare a 3rd to the new stuff that you would have to take a pretty mint example and put on equal wheels/tires and update the suspension a little and see where you stand then. Our cars were the best handlers in their day and still hold their own. I'm sure with some smart modifications that the gap between the new tech and our stuff would be very small. They might even best them due to our weight and simplicity.

Jason E

I don't think size and weight is something we can really get around, anymore. I remember growing up feeling that my mom's '89 RS was a good-sized car...not big, but the external dimensions and interior width lent a sense of size to it compared to all the Grand Ams, Accords and such my friends' parents had.

Now, my third gens feel tiny. In terms of size, if you extended the wheelbase a bit, I think third gens would be perfect...especially with modern space utilization.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Hey Mike, fancy seeing you here. I'm Z284ever on GMI.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I agree completely. Just because a car is fast, doesn't mean it's fulfilling to drive. The 5th gen Camaro for example, can put down good numbers, but's it feels numb and not very satisfying at all. The new M3 really hits the bullseye though. It doesn't just deliver good numbers, it delivers an awesome driving experience as well. You feel totally connected.

I love the C6, but I agree, it lacks connection with the driver. It's almost like much of the "feel" is being filtered out and you are driving a really fast video game.

KMK454

It all depends on what you want. My friend's M3 was the E46, so it was lightweight with the legendary I-6. High-revving, great handling, nimble, an awesome car. However, I like low-end torque from an American V8 (but I'll take a Porsche flat six! ). I haven't driven the V8 M3, though.

I forgot to mention I drove an E60 M5 with the SMG paddle shifters... beast of a luxury performance car, but too refined for its own good. Mechanical brilliance is meaningless if the driver is isolated from it. But that V-10 screams.

The C6 I had transformed with some mods. I loved it stock but with new shocks, an inch drop, and new bushings, it really woke the car up.

On the other hand, a thirdgen needs nothing and you're already immersed in the mechanical/driving experience!

MikesZ28

Nope, want an '82 or '83 CFI this time, even with all its evil ways.

MikesZ28

Oh, using aliases I see!

I had to add the 28 to my name here 'cause MikesZ was already taken.

Well, help me find that CFI car Charlie, or sell me yours!!!!

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I hear ya. Once you get that wild hair to get something - that's it.

All in all, I've had a lot of fun fiddling with my CFI.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

You never know Mike. If I can find the right LB9/T5 convertible, the CFI may become available.

MikesZ28

Teaser!

malushi333

.