Jason E

Long story short...its safe to say those on here who know me know I have a thing for metallic grey third gen Camaros. Its a color that even today looks modern, and subtle, and a little badass Anyway, a guy that lives down the street from me has had a third gen grey Camaro in his driveway for as long as I've lived here...over 3 years. I finally met him this morning, as the car is for sale...







What I used to think was a repainted Z28 because of the grid tailights is actually an '89 RS, which is my sentimental favorite as my first car was a grey '89 RS. This one is just like my old one, save the fact its a 305 hardtop (mine was a V6 t-top). 112k on it. Tree fell on it, hence the damage. Owned since '91. Solid, rust-free underneath. Interior is faded, stained and in general tore up. It runs beautiful, save for the fact the TV cable needs to be adjusted because it doesn't downshift readily. In 100% original condition, he's asking $2,200.

As much as I love these cars, I said to myself "$1,500 is probably about right." I don't know which I feel worst about...the fact that I can look at a well-running example of a car I love, in the right color, and not be able to justify the fact that even $2,000 is paying too much...or that every time I look at one now, I mentally add up what it'll cost to make it right before I even talk to the owner

I'm just waiting for the day these cars get more respect...before I restored my red RS, I would've happily given this guy $2,000 for it and driven it home. Now, I look at it as a $1,500 project I will lose money on I'm sad because I'm always for saving these cars, but even I have trouble justifying a car like this now. How many more will die before they become worthy of restoration costs??? I wonder...

Jason E

One more thing...I was driving my 86 when I stopped to look at it. We were talking about how well TBI cars run, and how rarely they seem to throw SES lights, at least in my experience (5 years with my 91 and it never threw one, yet all my TPI cars routinely light them up at random). The 86 rewarded me with a fresh SES light when I got back from the test ride and fired it up

KMK454

If we define worthy as financially viable, then an 89 RS will probably never be worth it. Z28s? 1LEs? TTAs? B4Cs? R4Us? Pace Cars? Firehawks? Debatable, if ever. There are big dollar muscle cars and exotics from the 50s and 60s that cost more to properly restore than what they bring at auction. This is especially true for rare and one-off versions that require custom fabrication or extensive research and searching.

I remember inquiring a few shops about restoration costs on my 78 Silverado with 36k original miles on it. It is in good condition with all the original parts but could use a disassebly and reassembly. I want to do it myself but inquired out of curiousity. Two shops that did Barrett Jackson quality restorations quoted me at 20 to 40k dollars for a factory original rotisserie restoration. Fully restored, the truck might be worth $15k at best, which is what it's probably worth now in its original, unrestored condition. People say, "I can do that myself," which if true, doesn't take into account the time involved. Time is money, but for many the joy is the build so it counts as a hobby.

The bottom line is if you're into cars for the money, you're either robbing someone as a seller/dealer or you're losing money doing something you enjoy.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

The cars will be worth saving when we start giving a crap about them. Looking around on this site, it's evident that very few people do give a crap about them. They are plenty old enough to garner worthiness to save...we just don't care enough about them as a community.

Doesn't help when you are stuck in the awkward years between the original, true muscle cars, and new muscle cars that make 400+ hp. Makes it a tough sell to care about our anemic years of boat anchor engines and low-tech computer controls. Even tougher when all the aftermarket cares about now are the new cars with all clean sheet design small blocks. Looking forward, aftermarket support for us will likely all but disappear.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

The '86 is trying to tell you that it's getting jealous.

C-rays86

i definatley agree with puma especially since everybody wants to swap an lsx into their thirdgen. thats just proving that our cars dont make enough power to satisfy the average car guy. my first third gen was an 86 iroc i loved that thing i would not let it go. it even came with the lg4 which was probably the weakest v8 of all thirdgens but it didnt matter to me i loved the sound that came from a carburated engine and i loved how the 5 spd felt. eventually it came to either having my car or a place to stay so i was forced to. it hurt to see it drive away especially knowing that the new owner lives in fresno and i live by san francisco not only that but i sold it for only 1800 when i was asking 2500. i bought it for 1500 and put about 4k into it honestly if i wasnt in that situation i wouldnt have let it go for even 10k. i do have hope that our cars have something special though they are pretty light and handle really well and i even saw an article where an 89 iroc took down a 69 z28 in the 1/4. ive also seen a 72 chevelle with an l98 from a totaled gta and a pontiac lemans with a lb9.

Jason E

I'm definitely not into third gens for the money I'm into third gens because its the only car I can think of, ever built, that has stood the test of time with me and has made me love it even more with age.

At the same point, after spending nearly $14,000 or so (I honestly forget the actual number, and would like to keep it that way ) over 5 years to sell my RS to $7,750, to an admittedly perfect home for it (I've been in contact with the new owner just this week, as they are buying the OEM wheels from me...car is doing great, only added 500 miles to it), its simply a hard pill to swallow.

Indeed, when you buy something new, you instantly lose money anyways. Instead of losing value on a car, I simply added value to one, just not enough I would like to see this car end up in good hands, because it honestly is a solid car. I simply cannot save them all...saving 2 was enough for me, and frankly the 2 I bought that were nearly perfect were better cars (one being an LB9/M5 TA I stole, the other being a 350 IROC as close to brand new as I've ever seen personally), and better deals. I was very lucky my 86 has been so solid...

Jason E

You know, I actually thought of that The RS's owner was shocked to believe that 4 months ago, the 86 arguably looked worse than his car! Blew his mind. He asked how much money it took to get it there, and for a minute I thought maybe he'd salvage this solid old girl he's owned for 20 years. Once I told him, his brow kinda furrowed

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

It's worth saving to a person that really wants and cares for the car, just as you have been with your cars. Restoring cars has to be done because you really have a desire to do it, not to make money or because it's "worth it." Most people realize that about 8 times outta 10 you won't make your money back. This even goes with cars from the 50s-70s. The televised auctions are about the only place where the reverse is true.

ZZ3 Z28

No you cannot save them all. With upwards of over a million+ 3rd gens built, many are mostly scrapped by now, many are lost causes, and only a few are worth saving such as IROC's, 1LE's, B4C's and the like. Percentage wise there are a relative few owners out here like me who've had their Camaro since day one who have properly and lovingly kept it up and even tried to make it better than factory. I've spent thousands of $$$ on it but I am aware that most likely none of that money will ever be seen again when it comes time to sell it. It is an emotional thing for me just like your thing for gray cars.

By the looks of your original post, it seems like this particular Camaro is having an emotional effect on you rather than just saving any 3rd gen. If it was red or teal would you be having the same thoughts about saving it? Probably not. So the operative theme here then is don't buy on emotion. I almost did that with a 1968 big block. I'm glad now that I didn't do it because I like the car that's in my garage now. I don't know if I would have had the same attachment to the BB than I do with my '86.

If you are going to make a bid on this old gray mare, then make sure it is what you want. Take a friend along to point out the pitfalls of buying it. Rose colored glasses are a liability. Make sure it is a car worth saving. For me, almost no RS is worth it. By the looks of it from the few posted pics, this one to me looks like a pass. If it were a true Z28, then I might be interested, just a little though. Then again, I'm more partial to '85's, 6's and 7's.

ZZ3 Z28

On a recent epiosde of Chasing Classic Cars, Wayne takes on a 1967 Dodge Power Wagon that a guy spent over $150 grand to restore. It was simply beautiful for a truck. When it went to auction the bidding never got up over $45k, if I remember right.

On a recent telecast of a Mecum auction, a gorgeous 1950 Ford pick up sold for $20,000.00. $20,000.00!!! You can barely buy a Kia for that amount nowadays.

Restoring a car is a crap shoot. A bunch of years ago it was more economical to restore a car yourself. Today you can buy one for half what it takes you to do it yourself.

rarebmx

iTrader: (6)

I agree in some respect but I figure tear up YOUR car all you want, originals will be more sought after. If it is an original car appreciate it for that and do your best to keep it nice, if you want to change everything out buy a POS (there are plenty of them) and build it. I want mine to be all stock and try to get it as prefect as possible. I am having a tough time finding the correct nice cig lighter... that is how detailed I want to get. TEAR TEHM UP, I say, it makes the other originals more sought after.
Akward years, yes but so were 70-73 corvettes and camaro's years ago.... No one wanted those when I was young because everyone wanted pro 1969 MUSCLE. Times change. The F-Bodeis are 80's icons!

On another note - I had a 69 SS396 Chevelle bench seat 4 spd. We all see them all the time (or that body style) people get tired of them. There is a guy locally who has a 300 Malibu (Chevelle with a post) and he draws more attention being an original car than a SS 454 ragtop. Times change and you don't see a blue IROC on every street corner anymore. You rarely see IROCs or T/As that aren't all ragged out. When you see a nice 20+ year old car that is not primered with horrbile exhaust leaks people notice and give a thumbs up. Appreciate your car, drive it and remind others how cool they were and still are. People will start seeking them. I bought our's because I wanted a 78-81 Z28 but for $5000 that was ragged out, needed everything, it was a stupid price. I looked at over 7 of them, rusty, motors changed out, repainted, changed out interiors, wrong parts - kind of like the 3rd gens are goig through... appreciate them for what they are. They need a LOT of money to go fast but to enjoy they need to be kept up!

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

This is correct and there are always exceptions to the rule, even with the big auctions. Many cars do not make the money back on those things also. On the other side though, I personally know people that have bought cars, fixed a few things, and made money on them. So you just never know. But, if you're going to do it, I still say make sure it's what you really want to do inside and not completely money motivated.

rarebmx

iTrader: (6)

to TRULY restore a car you will NEVER make $. I will argue this to the end - if you are a shop owner, you know what T&M is (down to the penny) and you have to account for your own time. Searching for NOS parts, correct down to nuts and bolts, tires - even right now to restore one of the 5.7 cars there are a lot of parts that will cost quite a bit not to mention NOS Gatorbacks or even the correct deluxe interior...
To make a car a good driver and presentable, possilby some money to be made.

bitchin_buick

We as a community don't even give'em respect ALL the time. Hence you doubting yourself as I have seen many others do.... I paid 2,800 for my 91' WS6 and would pay more for the camaro you listed. Mine is a 305, Interior is bad but the car runs beautiful(like you posted about this car). Needs work as any used car would. If I had more room in the drive/garage with other projects I would feel comfortable spending closer to 3. They are not going to re-reproduce these cars........ Get'em while you can. I'm a blue-collar family man. I have a 82' G-Body and the prices on these can be nuts now, even like my 82' Regal with a 3.8NA I have seen go for $4-8,000 With a 3.8NA!. You guys think a 305 is slow try a 3.8NA! My 82 is slow..... Lover her nonetheless

NCGuy68

From a strickly financial standpoint, original survivor cars (with safety related replacement parts) will fetch the most $$ down the road. Been happening with the 1st gen cars for quite a while now.

okfoz

In all honesty, if you look at even a 1st gen you can still get into one pretty reasonable. For the most part the only cars that have accrued much value are those cars which had some unusual options that were desirable. IE the ZL1 cars, You can still pick up a I6 for under $10K Heck I missed a pretty nice 69 396 for $2000 about 10 years ago now...

My point is, for any given year, if it is not the top or 2nd tier motor for that year chances are it will not be as sought after as those cars that have those motors. IE the 350, or the 305 TPI, 305 HO, (a working condition 305 CFI) I would suggest that an LG4, L03, V6's (except the Turbo) will probably be like a drug on the market.

This thread applies IMHO.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...re-asking.html

eseibel67

You are right, top engine cars are the only ones that will ever be desireable due to astronomical production run over 11 model years.

NCGuy68

I have to respectfully disagree. True numbers matching 1969 ZL1 cars are fetching in the $500,000 to $650,000 range even in this down economy - and thats only when they surface for sale. Not bad for a car that sold for around $7500 in 69. You wouldn't touch any # match 67-69 Z28 for less then $40,000 and even the 350 SS cars are in that price range. A # match straight 6-cylinder car (there were no V-6s from the factory) will bring $8000 to $10,000 if its not a rust bucket. And look out for any drop-top no matter what motors in it. Astronomical $$. That 69 396 you saw about 10 years ago would be in the $12,000 + range if its all there.

Pick-up a recant copy of Hemmings for a real eye opener. I'am not making making this stuff up.

Anti-Venom

Historically every F-Body suffers from the period when they are just run down, plentiful, and every dirtbag can afford them. Then as they become a rare sight on the road, people will start to miss them and they start picking up value again. I wish I would have bought a few 2nd gen's when they where everywhere cheap.

I think 3rd gen's are already starting to pick up value again already and they deserve every bit of money and attention as every other generation. The car never changes, just peoples attitude towards them and people will always want something different and exclusive.

Personally I could care less what others think and am more than happy to enjoy my car regardless of it's value. I would be happy actually if they just stayed cheap. It may lack a cup holder and have a few squeeks but so what? That's what I like about it. It's a flippin sports car not a caddy. Like a sledgehammer they're cheap, simple, raw and effective with no frill's.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

My Camaro club drives the cars for the Mecum auctions when they come to Chicago. About 3 years ago, I was lucky enough to be the driver of a '67 Z/28. Thrilled, actually! Only the second one I've ever seen. The car was restored some time ago. Not the 100 point, nut and bolt, rotisserie restorations you'd see today though. More a hobbiest resto. Nice, but you know what I mean. It sold for........$98,000. Early Z/28s are even more sought after than the big block SS cars. At least, that's my experiences at the auctions.

Jason E

I think part of my issue is the fact that so many of the interior replacement parts won't even look that good, anyway. I had a royal bitch of a time getting the carpet and headliner in my RS to look reasonably good, and they still weren't perfect. Then, I still had to live with aged leather seats because no one makes replacement leather. Same goes for these seats...no one makes replacement base cloth.

I think if I didn't have my 86, I'd probably offer $1,500 and buy it for a fun driver. I'd still fix it up right, and probably end up with a beautiful car, and live with the fact I had $8-9k in a car worth $5k. But, the 86 is finished, and is the better car by far (TPI, power options, TA trim etc).

I hope someone buys it and does something with it, even though its "only" an RS. I'm tired of seeing nothing but IROCs and GTAs...that's part of the reason I own 2 TAs. Variety is one reason I've always loved third gens, and like ones that are different than what everyone else has.

NCGuy68

Yep!! And go ahead and admit it, that little 302 ran pretty damn good didn't it?

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Admit it? I'll proclaim it!

NCGuy68

I've owned 2 68s and 1 69 Z thru the years. They didn't have much on the low-end, but get them above 3K RPM, where they start breathing and then the fun begins. You're a lucky man. Not many people have actually driven a real 67 Z, the lowest production of them all at 602 units.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

Serious problem right here, going forward.

I still have not been able to source accurate upholstery. Last time I went out to start my car I noticed the ever so slight rippling of the headliner fabric, like it's just starting to let go...assuming I don't sit around, it should hopefully be able to just be pulled taut with a bit more adhesive. But as for the seats, I am up the creek without a paddle, upholstery and foams.

Unless someone really steps in and offers real interior solutions, these cars are doomed.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Well, honestly, part of the problem is that these cars AREN'T scarce. For owners thats good, for sellers that's bad. Means we can still find factory parts.

Value is a ratio desirability to availability. Our cars are very, very available. Many more have to die before this one is worth saving. Thats just the nature of the beast.

streetpro

They were the car to have in high school,great for peel outs,dates,sitting at the mall on the weekends,easy to work on,you could also go hunting for corvettes,mustangs,
nova's,transam,firebird win or lose that was the fun.Mabey even a few tickets.
The car can be all things racecar,streetcar,moms camaro,daily driver,weekend show car,spare car,garage art,conversation piece,memory maker,memory reliver,so with all that going for it who cares if it goes up in price,mines not for sale.

NCGuy68

True, and the 1stgen cars suffered this same plight for many years and has only recently gotten better. Theres enough repop parts out to build a 69 Camaro from the ground up but you're gonna pull your hair out trying to get everything to fit/look decent. And interior solutions have been and always will be a problem IMHO. Heres a case in point and I'am not at all trying to bash the vender:

A while back, a buddy and myself looked real close at a 85 camaro dash pad that had been redone by Just-Dashes. It looked good from 20' away but up close, not so good. We compared it to an original and the differences were obvious. The grain in the viny wasn't the same. The side vents were close, but the speaker cut-outs were way off. The owner paid $750 to restore the pad plus $180 in round trip shipping. My point is that correct 'soft' interior parts are going to be a real problem in the future unless someone gets serious about repoping them just as puma mentioned above.

coolram62

iTrader: (2)

All good points about 3rd Gens compared to the history of the F-Body. I remember in high school (Class of '81) where several friends had 1st Gens. Most were nice but a couple were not my taste. My first car was a '70 Ranchero GT with 351 and I traded it for a new car. Just about everyone of them wanted a 2nd Gen. I finally bought a '79 T/A in the mid '80s but sold her after a few years. I really couldn't afford to purchase either car in similar condition today. And then there's my '70 Monte Carlo SS that health forced me to sell (I should say give away). My point is if you find an original V8 3rd Gen (Z28,IROC,Formula,T/A,GTA) then try to keep her as original as possible or easily reversible to that. Even the Berlinetta ,especially the digital dash cars, are very good alternative. A few years ago I ran across a '83 Berlinetta LG4/700R4 with J65 for sale by the original owner. I really wish I had the money to buy her as she looked nice. And there's a blue/grey accent IROC that has just ben sitting in a yard for years but she's behind fence and the times I pass there's never anyone home. It's a shame as her front tires are flat now but the body/paint still looks very good. The same can be said for V8 Firebird SE. And even original V6 or Iron Duke cars have their place for posterity.

My '83 is 95% original and what's not is easily undone. The most obvious change is the 16" single stripes with gold accents (like the 15" originals I still have). She is a numbers matching CFI car loaded with almost every option available. There are many that don't like CFI ,and it does have a bad reputation, but the more removed from original cars the more of a loss to the rest of us. I'm lucky she still has the cold air SMC hood and all original beige paint (new stripes wouldn't hurt) and a very good camel custom interior. I've had to replace the console lid and the dash pad like many others. At the time I couldn't find a correct for '83 dash pad so had to go with a '84+ (still have the original if there's ever a decent repair proces). I said all this to say we as a group have to do our best to preserve,protect and promote 3rd Gens as they are the muscle/collectible cars for my generation.

Linson

to be very honest with you, the car in the pictures is a piece of ****. it shouldnt be restored - ever. cars like that are the reason why 3rd gens overall dont get any respect. low output motors, open differentials, 2.73 gears...these are the cars that were getting spanked by 5.0's. and in the mind of the general public, it must've been all the 3rd gens that were getting spanked, and that were inferior.

MY Opinion: generally, if it doesnt say IROC, Formula, or Trans Am somewhere on the side of it, then it probably shouldnt be restored. on the other hand, if you want to do a big block conversion (ya know, something with a 6" cowel hood), or otherwise build a track car, even an LSx conversion, or any one-off project, then yeah, an 84 Berlinetta or an 86 or 88 RS is perfectly good fodder for that.

honestly, if you want 3rd Gens to get the respect that they deserve, lets not hoist up the crappy ones as poster children for our cause.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Restoring our interiors is a huge problem. Available replacement fabrics, only approximate the factory look for example. And if the lettering on your dash, console or switchgear rub off, your only hope is to find a mint OEM replacement. Good luck with that!

Linson: I disagree with you. That car is worth saving. Even a lowly Iron Duke with dog dish hubcaps is worth saving - to me, anyways.

Linson

dude, any upholstry shop can fix your headliner (for about 250 bucks). and probably re-do your seats (for even more money, of course.)

after my 30K Formula 350 sat outside at the shop for 18 months, the headliner started to sag. i had it and the sail panels redone in black (instead of factory grey). i also powder coated the plenum and valve covers in black - and the AS&M runners in black chrome. why? because i'm building the car that I want. this is my car. i want an elite 3rd gen in my garage. i'm not thinking about some schmuck who might want to buy an all original car in 10 years.

so, speaking of being "financially viable" i'm not doing this **** looking for some big pay day down the road, and anyone who is doing it for that reason, i suggest you stop now, and invest elsewhere. i'm building the car that i want, baby!

oh, and i also respectfully disagree about these cars being doomed without plentiful original upholstry. you might be right. i might be wrong. but i just want to suggest a slightly different model, as follows:

let the market dictate where the aftermarket goes.

meaning - drop them LS1's and LS2's in F-bodies. build up those L98's. let the beaters die out. let people see nice IROCs and Formulas on the streets (they are undeniably better looking than their predecessors.) let people see these light-weight cars from the eighties holding their own against late model 400+ HP muscle cars. perhaps then, there will be interest. and maybe then, the aftermarket will take an interest. again, i could be dead wrong, i mean afterall, you cant even buy a FRICKING CAI for a 3rd gen. that's ******* ridiculous!

Jason E

With all due respect, you're wrong. He is right. You CANNOT GET properly matched upholstery. It does not exist. Show me where it is, because I cannot find it. The repop **** does NOT match OEM.

I looked at your car. NICE car. I like it a lot. But your car is not original, and a purist will cringe at it. He's a purist...for the most part, so am I, but I can appreciate a nicely modded car (not saying he can't, BTW). It simply is not my thing.

I disgaree that this car isn't worth saving. I'm with Charlie. At this point, they ALL are worth saving to a certain degree. Its funny how people say these cars aren't rare, and they're everywhere. Oh really? WHERE ARE THEY, then. In the Northeast, these suckers are long gone. I used my 86 yesterday to run errands. I had 3 people tell me how beautiful it was, and how you don't see them around anymore. I see them for sale online. I see clapped out runs driving around now and then. That's it. If these aren't getting rare, its news to me...

My point is, this car needs about $7-8k in work...hard pill to swallow. I'm talking with a guy from MN right now with a gorgeous equivalent in a black '91 RS...asking $8k obo. Do I want more money in a 112k mile car, or less in a mint original 26k mile car? I just don't have the time or expertise to do these cars myself

Linson

1999 GMC Sierra Z71
1998 Dodge Durango 5.2 4x4
1996 Z28
1989 Firebird Formula 350 T-Top
1989 Firebird Formula 350 Hardtop
1989 Mustang LX 5.0 Hatchback
1968 Mustang Coupe
1967 Firebird

as recently as a few months ago, i had eight cars including mine and my wife's daily driver truck and SUV. eight cars in various stages of repair. acquiring eight cars is easy. parking, maintaining, insuring, and fixing up eight cars is damn near impossible for most people. i reached a point where i knew i wanted to get rid of my perpetual projects that were going nowhere (and costing me storage fees.) i already had an 89 Formula 350 (a project that was going nowhere) when i bought my current 89 - so that one i was damn near willing to give away - i actually did give it away.

so, i had a choice to make: sell everything except the '67 Firebird and buy a 2011 Mustang GT: These are truly remarkable machines IMO.
or...fix up the 30K hardtop Formula 350 and keep that along with it's sworn enemy LX Mustang, and also keep the 67 Firebird.

there was, of course, the who wants a new car payment? factor. but the biggest factor was the fact that any ******** with a checkbook can get himself into a 2011 Mustang in about 4 hours. you just dont see nice 3rd gens very often at all. and, for me, when i do see one drive by, especially when i can hear that it's got something hot under the hood, it evokes a physical and emotional response in me far greater than when i see a 2011 GT or late model GT500. it is what it is.

rarebmx

iTrader: (6)

The bottom line i: people and prices will determine every car. Some NICE cars will be parted out, some people will swap parts and some will drive then to the ground and scrap them. I will pay pretty big money for a beechwood drivers seat for an 89 or even the passneger seat for just the material. Headliners can be fixed and so can visors/sail panels. Arm rest are hard to find in Tan as a lot of pieces seem to be.
Interiors though - people will overlook some interior changes. I would even be okay with stickers on my switches if someone would make them until I can find correct mint OEM ones. Stuff will always crawl out of the woodwork. Soft goods are ALWAYS more sought after than anything else.
I collect and restore BMX bikes from the 70's and 80's and some tires I have in NOS condition I can get close to $700 for two, I have sold bicycle seats for $400, grips for $350.... Soft goods do not last! Anything nice, pick it up, someone will need it someday. Store it inside and use it for trades later.
The cars being parted out: some parts should command much more than they are currently. Watch the market, plastic parts, original dash pads, console parts and seats will continue to rise.
I say change whatever you like, everyone owns their car and if you want to use it to race, go for it, if you wreck it once a year that is yours to do with what you want. I am 43 and have seen markets go up and down. The last real muscle car I had was a '70 Challenger R/T 383/727/Top Banana Yellow car. When I bought it everyone was looking for GM cars.... little did they know that the Mopars would go where they did. People are almost over that hump now.
Someone said we are in a time right now where others are not into them.... WAIT. Hot Wheels just released the 80's Icon series.... The Camaro is in there! Carry on the legend - they will be sought after and appreciated. Value - they could stay priced where they are now and I would be fine but I haven't seem many sell over original MSRP! Compare a 69 Z28 with DZ302 and see what MSRP is vs. current price. That is when they start becomming high dollar collectables.

Linson

[quote=Jason E;5110456]

okay, well, you're a purist and i'm not. i wasnt even talking about non-OEM repop upholstry. what i am saying is that (for a rather pretty penny) any good upholsterer can re-do your seats or any other part of your interior better than new, with better materials - and that a bunch of 3rd gens showing up at car shows with nice, non-factory, leather or suede interiors will not doom these cars to be cast aside - and could have the opposite effect.

dude, its got some aftermarket parts to make it run better and faster. it's still got TPI FFS. and it is still a stock appearing Formula 350. i dont see what there is to cringe at. part of the appeal of these cars, i think, ought to be that they aren't so sacred that you cant have any fun with them. why the f would anybody want to drive around in a 3rd gen with the factory exhaust, and the factory tape deck? there are definitely lines that shouldnt be crossed, but if you're not gonna have fun with it, then i dont see the point.

lets suppose that the car is worth the $1500 you would be willing to pay for it (which it isn't btw.) i'll betcha the owner would gladly take $750 for it. anyway, the paint and body work that it needs would probably cost you at least double what you think the car is worth, and quadrupal what i think it's worth.

and as another poster said, "you cant save them all." now reading this thread, i have seen some people throwing up some ridiculous figures for 3rd gen beaters. 8-11 grand for an RS! that's absurd. $2800+ for the car in the photos that is the original subject of this thread. there is just no way. i'm not saying to scap them all, but the car in the pic is a beater and its not worth saving. not when you can save a Trans Am, a Formula, or an IROC instead.

you're preaching to the Pastor on that subject, friend. thats the same hill i've been dying on for years. you're 100 times more likely to see a nice 1st gen than you are to see a nice 3rd gen - anywhere. and yes, even the beaters are fairly rare.

and my point is this: after that 7-8K, what are you going to have? i'm not saying that its always about all-out speed, but you're going to have a car that says Camaro on it that is probably slower than your neighbor's Camry. and this reinforces the misconceptions that cause 3rd gens to be disrespected; dismissed as 80s trash.

to answer your query though, definitely go for the clean low mileage one. you will come out WAY ahead, guaranteed. just realize that even this mint car is going to lack alot of what defines a sports car or a muscle car.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

I'll address the other points later, but the car in the OP seems worth saving to me. Save for a fender and a bumper cover, it looks like the body is rather straight and just needs a good scuff 'n spray.

The base interior is a big downer, but that car isn't a throwaway if it's clean underneath.

Also everyone always talks about how there are thirdgens aplenty, sure they made over a million but that was 20 years ago, the supply will dry up soon enough. I can count on one hand the number of thirdgens I've seen around in the last 3 months since I've been back, and all two or three of them were complete northern beaters, base models on their last leg.

And it's true, TBI cars virtually never throw SES lights. For all the repairs I've had on mine, I don't recall the SES light going off more than a time or two.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

As far as my comment about them being common, maybe it's different where you guys are, but around here they're everywhere.

Not in the sense you see them driving around much anymore. The last 5 years seem to be REALLY taking their toll on these cars because there's a marked difference, however, I have a "friend" who habitually buys the WORST examples of these cars (and second gens) and they are so far beyond help that they're pretty much totalled before he even gets them as far as what it will take just to get them to the level where one of us would consider it weekend drive-able, and he pays ridiculous money for them. The car in the OP is in great shape compared to the garbage this guy gets.

Anyway, he's got a new one every 2 months that has more problems than the one before it. He keeps finding them - they're still available, and those craptastic, available ones are what drag the values down across the board. Even if they ARE rare, which I will admit they're getting scarce, ESPECIALLY in nice, drivable condition, but there's still enough of them out there, and there's still that perception of availability that the prices and values aren't really reflecting reality.

But it seems to me the value of a nice example has gone up considerably in the past 5 years too. The fair to average examples aren't really going up, but the average to nice ones have bumped up a grand or two since I was looking at these. You used to be able to get a NICE IROC for $3500, and now they seem to be approaching that $5k mark. And the very nice examples are starting to show up in the $7-10k range for the all original, low mileage cars. This is a pretty big change from 5 years ago.

Just be patient guys, it will happen. The first gens are still getting more rare and more desirable every day so expecting them to ever catch up with classic 60's muscle cars is being optimistic, but I have no doubt that in 20 years they will be where the 60's muscle cars are today - barring a huge paradigm shift from a gasoline energy network to a hydrogen/ethanol/electric/hybrid whatever that may make gasoline cars mostly obsolete and overly expensive to operate. That day will come, I just have a feeling it will be closer to 2050 than 2030.

But for now I'm glad the average working man such as myself can still afford to snap up one of these cars.

Jason E

1) He and I were saying that ANY upholstery you get won't look like stock...that's it. My opinion is that non-stock upholstery takes away from the look of the car. Everyone has a different opinion. The day I put leather or suede upholstery in a car that isn't supposed to have it is the day hell freezes over

2) I'm not ragging on your car...I even said it was nice. Chill No one is "cringing" at it. It simply isn't original anymore...that's all I said. And I guess you met one person that DOES want to drive around with the original exhaust on their car. Both my 88s have it, and I'm more than happy that the original is still on there. A car is only original once. My 86 has a replacement on it...she may be getting a nice little Borla next year, when funds allow

3) Who the hell said an RS beater was worth $11 grand? Anyone? Bueller? I sure as hell didn't. There is a guy on this board asking $7,995 obo for a clean 26k mile RS thats nearly flawless. I didn't say its worth $8k either, but I'd pay high $6s-7k for it. MY POINT is that I would be better off financially to NOT save the car. If you read what I said, my view is the same as yours.

4) The car in question is $2,200, not 2,800...a shell with no engine sells for $1,000 many times, so I have no idea how you can say a rust-free running RS is worth $750. Where you live? Maybe....but sure as hell not up here.

bitchin_buick

Dude, I mean Linson..... If it's so easy to redo the interior like you are arguing about and the car posted "runs beautiful" Then all that is left is some body work and fresh paint. You want to dump a car after being 20 years old cause it needs some work and body work? Duh, dude. What do you expect!

Linson

dammit! now youre making me go back and look over this thread...

okay - so one guy says he paid $2800 for his '91 WS6 (Formula, i presume) and that "he would pay even more" for the RS you posted. so, that is where i got the 2800+ for an RS figure. this same guy goes on to say that he's seen 82-ish Regals with 3.8's in em going for up to 8K. at the very least, that would have to be an even smaller niche than 3rd gen afficionados. i didnt find the 11k for an RS statement though. i may have misconstrued it from a post ealier, but trust me that i didnt just pull that out of my **** to enhance my point.

i know youre not ragging on my car - i'm just making a point. making the arguement, if you will, for modification.

when you talk about zero tolerance for deviation from stock, AAAND an apparent partiallity towards the lower performing versions of 3rd gens, it gets a little hard for someone like me to wrap my mind around. its like, "okay, so youre really into Camaros, but you care nothing about performance?"

and, i gotta stand by that $750. and i've lived in more than just one region. i mean if the body were straight, that'd be another story, but this thing looks beat up, man. it has at least one panel that is badly beat up. the paint is peeling, it's got this big gouge taken out of the front clip, its got rust spots showing through the paint...and thats just what we can see in the pic. aaand the interiors is all torn up. basically, you'd be buying someone else's problem. truth be told, it isnt a fine example of 3rd gen performance, even if it were like new, it isnt even a good example of the more pedestrian versions of 3rd gen performance due to its condition, and to the performance minded builder - it is not a good place to start. these are the reasons that i think the answer to your question of "when will a car like that be worth restoring?" is probably never. not to invalidate your feelings though, if you really have your heart set on something like that, i would advise you to talk down the price of the black 26K car and possibly have it painted gunmetal grey.

Linson

okay...so while your rolling on the floor laughing (i guess youre easily amused) why dont you describe to me how easy i argued that it would be to redo the interior.

because it seems to me like i was saying that it is easy enough if you have the money to pay a professional upholsterer. i didnt even say it would be the original materials. but a good uphulsterer can make the interior look nice.

i'll wait.

bitchin_buick

Long story short: What 20 year old car doesn't need some love? So because of that it is not worthy of your standards? Old cars cost cash, you should know that..... Duh Dude! Like the garage, got better pics of the toys inside?

bitchin_buick

Maybe I miss understood is all. One minute you say don't post up that poster child car cause it needs love and it's a disgrace to thirds??? Blah, Blah, Blah! (In MIKE Tones) and the next minute you say the parts are readily available and you come across as it's not much of a deal to fix the interior, then you turn around and tell me that it can be costly/difficult to mess with the interior, Blah, blah, blah. Stick to your angle whatever it is and don't switch it cause you like to argue. Either it is trash or not. I say not. What about the pics of the toys in the garage? Mike

bitchin_buick

Don't even know what your babbling about any more do you?

Linson

i have pulled the actual footage just for you. this is everything i have said about fixing the interior.


seems to me like i was saying exactly what i told you that i said: its not cheap, but an interior can be made to look nice, even in the absense of new OEM upholstry. thats been my angle the whole time. i dont think it helps the OP because he doesnt want to deviate from original material. but i havnt changed my story. i dont know what youre talking about.

and since, evidently i havnt been clear enough for some people - my position is that the car is trash. NOT because it needs love. but because it is a lower-end model with a low output 305, open differential, 2.73 gears, rear drum brakes. it is a disgrace to third gens, not because its beat up, but because it has a low output 305, open differential, 2.73 gears, and rear drum brakes. that is why i would not rescue that particular car. an IROC-Z with a 305 TPI in similar condition, on the other hand, yeah, to me that might be worth rescuing. i could do something with that.

now that i've proven my position to be contrary to that which you have tried to force upon me, and proven my consistency on the matter - and clarified my position on merits of rescuing this car vs that car - i suppose you will, rather than acknowledge that i have done this, you'll just make some other wild claims and bizzare leaps of logic?

and btw, i dont know what youre asking me in reference to pics of cars in the garage. your garage? my garage?

Project-RS

iTrader: (1)

mines an rs and ill spank any 5.0 around....hahahahaha

Project-RS

iTrader: (1)

any camaro with a solid body should deserve a chance at getting restored. even though my current rs is far from factory, my next one will be a replica of the z28 my dad bought back in 89 (a tribute build). i give you kudos for keeping these cars original. and as far as respect, the people that drive them reckless and think that just because its a v8 that its fast. those are some reasons they dont get respect. just my opinion

bitchin_buick

Nice work on all your homework you did of all your old post. And you said I was taking things personally .... Like I said "Maybe I misunderstood is all." Is that your garage, dude? Just given' ya a hard time about the above dispute but would love to see pics of the 67' Bird if the posting police don't hunt us down and take our kids...... Okay, your right they can take the kids......