IROC#1

Just look at this Z28! Finally the market is recognizing the value in these cars as a collectible...

http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/cto/2787861711.html

eseibel67

Since it's a 4 speed, he might get 20% of the asking price - if he's patient enough to wait for the right buyer.

Or, if he sticks to his guns, his great-grandchildren might reap the benefits of the sale.

calroc

Asking price & selling price are two different things. Show me a 145 horsepower third gen that actually sells for nearly $69K.

mtvd23

I don't think anyone thought the 2nd gen Camaros were going to sell for much and their prices have gone up quite a bit in the last 10 years. 3rd gen value is slowly going up. I don't think that guy will get 68k though.

camarosrock1989

iTrader: (1)

He might not have realized he typed one to many #'s..lol

mtvd23

I thought that too, but if you read the whole post he puts it again with the comma even. I think he really wants 68k.

Jetmeck

iTrader: (3)

Look at Ebay. Several low mileage GTAs sold recently. One 89

black on black with I believe 24k for just under 13,000 and it was perfect.

So whats my perfect 89 GTA red/grey leather with 9,ooo miles worth ?

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yeah, its prolly worth 6,880. Not his price

IROC#1

Thats just it, this wasnt a typo! Its clearly worth more than $6880 with only 1500 miles and all original but its not worth the $68,880 he's asking...Its probably closer to a $15k car IMO. Its just funny to see someone asking that kind of money for ANYTHING built in the 80's! Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus--with very few exceptions (one being a Porsche 930 turbo factory steel slantnose which was originally $130k and are extremely rare) there are few 80's cars worth $70k!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...item43ac144a9c

91 Droptop

I cant get that for my first-gen, no way he is getting close to that, I saw a 87 Iroc with less than 5K miles go for 21K AT Barret Jackson and that was great money. I do believe they are increasing in value, especially for the ones that have not beene hacked to death.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Their value is increasing, even in a lousy economy, but that is ridiculous. He really must not want to sell it!

scottmoyer

Remember, perception changes a lot of things. If people start asking ridiculous prices for their cars, others will take notice because of the price. If everybody on ebay tried selling their thirdgen for $10k more than their current price, people would start thinking that the higher price is correct.

This guy's asking price is way out of line, however, other people with low mile cars will see it and think that if this guy is asking this, then they are safe asking more for theirs. I remember back in 2005, LeonardS had his 92 Z28 on eBay for $50k. I would think he can get it today, but thought it was out of line then. If somebody buys it, a new standard has been set!

ZZ3 Z28

Well it does have only 1.826 miles on it!

Duane's 91 Z/28

iTrader: (1)

He's toking up on some wacky weed if he thinks hes going to get 69k. I say 20k tops!!

SD89RS

it's either trolling, or a typo. No way that guy thinks his third gen is worth that.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

Leonard's car isn't exactly your typical low-mileage original though; it's the last of many categories, and it's extremely well documented with just a couple hundred miles on the odometer.

Sure, prices of thidgens are increasing, just the low mileage originals, of which there are plenty. As long as there are plenty of those, no others will be worth anything. When the beaters start commanding good coin, then you'll be onto something.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

That's not really the point. Years ago even the low milers weren't worth much, definitely not what they're going for now! Absolute rareity in general is what will bring the base cars and beaters up. That's a while away yet, but it's also gonna happen. Mint or near mint "higher end" IROCs in the 60,000-80,000 mile range seem to often sell in the low-mid teens also. It's getting to be normal these days it seems. Years from now, that group along with the others will move up in value and cars with over 100,000 miles will sell for what the cars with less miles used to sell for before, making them all somewhat expensive. It's pretty unavoidable.

It might sound funny now, but just for example, someday someone will say, "Wow, only 125,000 miles on this near mint, almost stock 35 y/o IROC-Z?," and they'll be willing to part with more cash than many of us probably would now for the same car, younger, with less miles, and most likely in better shape than it will be in the future.....ironic really. It's going to go up all around and there is no going back now, unless we stop using gas as our main fuel source or it becomes insanely expensive. Then people wouldn't want to deal with gasoline powered vehicles even for collectors cars, unless they had lots of money of course, in which they'd be expensive toys for the rich. Hopefully none of that happens or at least not for a very long time.

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

theres a like new 86 iroc with 3,000 miles on it on ebay right now ..the buy it now is 22,000 .. the guy asking 68k for a 84 z28 is crazy ..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1986-...item3f123386c5

NCGuy68

Hes asking for a price a restored numbers matching 69 Z28 usually goes for. Typo or hes on Crack.....

KMK454

All joking aside, it looks like a pretty sweet example of an early thirdgen. If his asking price is 6,880 and not 68,800 then it might be a steal...

ZZ3 Z28

I watch a lot of Velocity on Directv and it seems like on any auction show or car collecting show it is always about low miles or originality. Recntly a 1984 Ferrari 328 with 58k on the clock only sold for $27,000. A doggone Hyundia costs that much today. COPO Camaros, three window Corvettes, etc, only draw big money because so few were built. 68+ thousand 1986 Z28's is not a few. The only way something like that will be worth anything is if it's a solid car, not trashed to death, and taken care of like a little baby.

scottmoyer

What are you talking about? This listing is for a 1982 Camaro, not an '86. You then state that the car will only be worth something is if it's a solid car, not trashed to death, and taken care of like a little baby. This car is 30 years old and has 1800 miles. Does that qualify for a solid car, not trashed to death, and taken care of like a little baby?

And a Ferrari selling for whatever is in a totally different category than a 3rd gen. That's high mileage for a Ferrari! A 1985 IROC-Z sold last year on Mecum for almost $28k. You can't compare a Ferrari to a Camaro.

NCGuy68

I'll agree with you that not many COPO cars were built and nobody knows the actual number yet. However, according to the Black Book there were 21,513 1963 three window Vetts built. Thats not just a few and plenty are around. Just check Hemmings Motor News.

cerberus

What that ad will do is set expectations higher for everybody, including laymen who dont know much about them.

I imagine that "price creep" happens exactly this way. We can all sit back and watch the games. He will only help the market.

I noticed this on my Local Craigslist selling my 1980 Z28. After I traded it. I posted it as SOLD and within a week other owners had raised prices and a couple of them even reflected my ad.


Collectible cars have to be driven by desire not rarity. You gotta make people want.

calroc

ray jr's link is for the red '86 with 3033mi. bin $22000. That car appears to be legit, but there's always something. Did anyone notice there are several engine bay photo's with one being accurate perimeter valve cover bolts. The rest show a center bolt valve cover TPI engine. WTF?
In addition, the documentation photo shows an '87 owners manual.

cerberus

WOW you are right! makes you wonder. Ill ask him

Iroctopless

They are two completely different engines. The valve covers are different, the AC compressor is totally different, throttle cable(s) & linkage, ac lines are different ones and positioned slightly different, etc, etc. I like the black electrical tape around one set of ac lines vs none on ethe other. It goes on and on. Wierd.

eseibel67

Indeed, 2 different cars. I think the mistake might be an innocent error in uploading pictures. The incorrect, perimeter-bolt engine looks like it has more than 2k miles on it. Seller wouldn't sabotoge his own ad. But the time sequnce of the pictures makes it look like he had 2 cars posing at the same photo shoot. Suspicious.

OOOps! I got the wrong year! The perimeter valve covers should be correct! Maybe this guy is goofing around on purpose.

yo soy el warg

I talked to the guy selling the 3,000 mile red 1986 camaro t-top on ebay. He also has a red 1987 camaro hardtop for sale at the same time with 33,000 miles on it. He was taking pictures of both at the same time and got the engine shots and paper work pictures mixed up. They are both excellent cars and he has all the documentation.

Steven6282

The problem with our cars is all in perception. I'm guilty of it myself. I don't picture our cars as being worthy collectibles. And I'm 29 so I grew up around these cars. Don't get me wrong I love these cars and will not get rid of my 86 that I have now, but I just can't see spending 20k on a third gen to sit it on a pedestal. There isn't exactly anything particularly special about a third gen (or a second gen even). It's just another car, was a sporty car in it's day but by today's standards it doesn't excel in any one area. In my mind, first gen camaros are true muscle cars. The pure power of a straight line car with a roaring big block engine making some serious torque. Newer camaros are more like a sports car, good engine power but a lot of focus on handling and such as well. Third gens are like the red headed step child of the two. Not as much raw muscle as a first gen, and an obvious attempt at making them more sporty with better handling, but no where near the handling of a real sports car. Best way to classify a third gen... it's a hobby car. Until that perception changes (who knows if it ever will) I doubt you see the value of them going up much.

A 69 Camaro, now that is a car worthy of being worshiped. Although I must admit even then I have difficulties imagining myself letting it be a garage queen. I don't think I could own a car and not drive it with some regular frequency. It's entertaining to go to a car show and see these pristine cars sit around, but I'd much rather be behind the wheel driving them

scottmoyer

Are you serious? The later IROC-Zs and the 91/92 Z28s were faster than most 69 Camaros and handle considerably better than the 1st gens. They also had more torque than the first gens. Remember, the 69 Z28 had 290hp and 290 torque. That was gross ratings, not net! Also, a sports car is defined as a two seater, so the newer Camaros are not sports cars. With .92g skidpad ratings, it's .04g behind a Dodge Viper and .01g behind an Acura NSX. The old muscle cars were in the .8x range.

IROC#1

I agree that first gens are true muscle cars--however most didnt have big blocks and most werent any faster than a 5.7 litre IROC in the 1/4 mile. PLUS they couldnt handle or brake well.

You say that third gens couldnt handle any where near as well as a "real" sportscar and yet the IROC's were one of the best handliing cars in the world back in 1985. I believe the skid # put them around .90 g's. Even by today's standards that is up there with a some supercars such as a 2008 Ferrari 430 which is at .94 g's on the skidpad.

I too have a hard time viewing them as collectible but there are very few on the road (at least up here in Seattle) and eventually people will see them as collectible..Once that happens prices will climb.

For the record my IROC is pretty much a garage queen. I think ive put about 8000 miles on it in the past 3 years.

Steven6282

Yes I'm serious lol.

And actually the 1969 SS model came with a 396 6.5L engine rated at 375 HP and 415 lb of torque peak.

Also it's not about speed, it's about muscle and perception (as I said). 91 / 92 Z8s may have been faster, they were most probably lighter, but they also only had around 300 HP / 350 torque tops in the 350 IROC models. Also they they just didn't have the mean growl that the 69s had (that adds to the perception). Finally, this high end SS model was available all the years the 1st gen was produced. Third gens didn't get a 350 until the 87 IROC so half the third gens life span had even weaker 305 engines, adding to the perception of the third gen being a weaker overall car.

As for handling, I specifically stated when referencing 1st gens that "pure power of a straight line car". I did not argue that the third gens didn't handle better, I also specifically stated that "an obvious attempt at making them more sporty with better handling".

As far as the definition of a sports car, irrelevant since I said "more like a sports car" and "no where near the handling of a real sports car". But even so, a more universal definition for a sports carNote *usually two seat*. Modern camaros are closer to being a sports car than a sedan.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

My goodness.

You're right, perception plays a part, and like many others, you see the 1st Gens through glasses coated with a film of awesome just because they were the originals and made in the 60s. Don't get me wrong, I really like 1st Gens. I've spent a good amount of time around them, I've driven them, (396 BBC) I'd even like to own one. The problem is that they're far overpriced due to that perception. When you drive a 1st Gen and then step into an L98 IROC-Z, you think wow, THIS is a real performance car because they are just so far ahead of anything built in the 60s. Sure, the 1st can go quick in a straight line and looks cool.....now try turning and stopping. The seating is also somewhat uncomfortable and not very sporty. That "raw" sound that you say they have is because none of them run stock exhausts and most have cams, headers, and true duals now. (they didn't come stock with duals except for very few 69 Z/28s and SSs ordered with the chambered system) Go listen to one that does, they were very quiet. I think a stock CFI Z28 was probably louder and sounded better LOL. Also, 3rd Gens still outhandle many cars today, nevermind the 60s/70s musclecars. Our brakes were decent, nothing great outside of the 1LEs, but better than the Camaros of before.

Besides the COPO or a special edition, the only 1st Gen that could give a top 3rd Gen Camaro a run for it's money is the L78 396 and the Z/28 (really around 375HP at around 7,000RPM with low TQ) if raced at high speeds. The BBC would come close and possibly edge an L98 G92 out, but the Z/28 would lose in the 1/4 mile and 0-60. I'd say some 1sts have more speed and power potential because of their simplicity and lack of a restrictive intake though. Otherwise, our cars are superior, even in build quality. 1sts usually started rusting out within 5 years of purchase. The HP/TQ ratings of the 60s are complete BS, except for rarities like the 67-69 Z/28, which was underrated. They were done in gross power numbers and often tuned for better performance than what you got at the dealership when dynoed. Magazines sometimes claimed that they were sent ringers for better test results, there was some trickery going on back then. Most of them were 14-16 second cars with about 7-8 second 0-60s in around 3,400Lb. bodies. The supposed power didn't add up then or now. Tuning and slicks could get one into mid 13s, but the same could be said for many L98 cars.

So yes, perception has to change. It has to change to see what our cars really were and what the cars of the past really weren't.

scottmoyer

If you want to be technically correct, then the 69 Camaro wasn't a muscle car either. It was a pony car.

The 69 Camaro SS 396/375 ran the 1/4 in 14.7 and 0-60 in 6.8 seconds! Gee, let's think about how that compares with an IROC-Z or later Z28. Also, there were 230k '69 Camaros and only 28k were SSs. Even fewer with the 396/375. So, the majority of the '69s were also not the big motor cars as you argue the 82-86 cars were. The perception of the 69 being a better car is just wrong in all areas. The reason it holds such high regard and the 80s cars don't is because right after the 60s cars, came the new Net rating which lowered the numbers and also the gov't restrictions which killed hp. Those cars were the top dog for 15-20 years. Our cars are the beginning of power again and everything has just gone up since. So our cars appear anemic.

ROCFATHER

It's really funny to me how people throw out these ridiculous asking prices! You see it all the time. Dont get me wrong 3rd gens are climbing up the chart as far as value is concerned, but we have a long way to go. It's obvious in the last 5-10yrs people are starting to take a closer look at the 3rd gen market and some asking prices are still fair.

Steven6282

Hehe, I wasn't in any way trying to prove that the 1st gens are better than the 3rd gens. My opening statement was "The problem with our cars is all in perception. I'm guilty of it myself."

Logically I know the third gens are a better performance car, not trying to argue they aren't. That is one of the reasons I have an 86 and not a 69, the other being the cost of a 69. But I can't shake the perception of the 69 muscle car rumbling away with my heart

I love my 86 too though, it's just a different kind of love. I wouldn't sale it for less than 20k, realistically it's probably worth 6 or 7k, meaning if I did try to sale it right now I'd be lucky to get 4 or 5k haha.

okfoz

I do have a suggestion...

We should all get together, and start asking ridiculous prices for them on craigslist and all of the free online classifieds. We can artificially push up the prices of our cars...

Scott, you should ask right around $50,000, just for grins... I might ask about $55,000 for my 89 Vert...

John

John

scottmoyer

So you're saying that your car is worth more than mine? John, we need to talk.

Just so people don't think I'm against 1st gens, here's my old car. Yes, it was a real X33 Z28 and not a clone. My touch with fame was the person I bought the car from. His name is Chris Ashworth, also known as Sergie "Serge" Malatov in HBO's "The Wire". He sold the car to audition for "Remember the Titans" with Denzel Washington. I heard he didn't get the part and that was the last I heard for awhile until "The Wire".

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Awesome! How did you like a real 1st Gen Z/28 vs a 3rd Gen L98 IROC-Z28?

lmidden

the most ive seen a third gen go for was an 85 with 4.3 miles still had all the plastic on the interior it went in the mid to high 20s just bc it was brand nnew he is definetly on something to think his car is worth 68

okfoz

I know these are not typical 3rd Gens, but I know that one of the two TTA convertibles sold for around $50,000 to $60,000, and that is not unheard of for a Firehawk to go that high. Also a 1LE with low miles sold for $40,000ish at auction a few years back.

I made this a while back and I think it holds true. Third Gens are really on the cuspid of going up in value. We have already seen the TTA, Firehawk's go up in value, then it will be followed by the GTA, Trans Am, Formula, Iroc with original 350 or LB9/M5's then the rest will follow.

Sorry to say The following cars will never garner much value in comparison to its bigger engine Brothers. LG4, L03, V6 and I4 cars... You can still get a decent 6Cyl 1st Gen for under $10,000 last time I checked...

John

KMK454

And let's not forget the brakes...

scottmoyer

It was cool, but everybody that had a Camaro, had a '69. It was a nice car for it's time, but the seats were not as nice as the third gens, and I hear people say the 3rd gen seats aren't as nice as 4th gen. The fact that it was carb'd meant the throttle response was immediate. That was nice. The suspension wasn't anything close to the IROC-Z and the braking was definitely inferior. It was a fun car to drive, when I drove it, but I would not enjoy driving it long distances and in traffic. My car also had 4.10 gears, so it was a high revving car at slower speeds.

I sold it to buy the IROC-Z if that answers your question!

okfoz

Oh, and Scott... The way I look at it is like this...

1) Ask the question: Would I trade my 37K Mile 1 of 42 Formula 350 Convertible for a 20K Mile IROC-Z with just T-tops that they made about 500 of????

Ummmm Nope

John

scottmoyer

John, my car doesn't have 20k miles yet!!! And it doesn't have "JUST" ttops!!! Sheesh, and I thought you were on my side. I'll give you $6k for that Formula. It is just a base Firebird with a big engine and half the car missing.

GreenCamaro13

it is getting recognition. on carfax its a proven statement that no matter in what condition the price has risen 60$ for the car, and the better it is the more to add to that such as low miles etc.

NCGuy68

Gents, I've read this entire thread and some of your comments tickle me.

I'am active in the 1st, 3rd, and 4th generation groups and have owned several numbers matching 1968-69 Z28s as well as a 69 L78 drop-top. The early cars were about brut horsepower that mattered on the street and dragstrip. I didn't read it, I lived it.

Forget about the 'performance data' reported by the various news outlets as the author was paid to say nice things about the car he was testing.

GM did produce some noteworthy 3rd gen cars and the unmolested, survivors examples will be the most desirable and valuable in the comming years.

Carry on the conversation guys and most importantly, enjoy your car.

90IROC1

iTrader: (4)

My good friend has a 69 RS tripple black convert and it's a loaded factory car with the f41 suspension. He would ask 60K for it and it's show room. A stok first gen wouldn't even out handle my 2ond gen 70.5 Camaro. I think my 3rd gen handled better than it did before I put all the Global West suspension on her. Good luck to that guy at 68K. LOL

NCGuy68

Perhaps you're forgetting about Roger Penske and driver Mark Donahue dominating the 1968-69 Trans-Am SCCA series. Penske later sold the cars to new owners who continued to race them against 2nd gen cars including the factory backed Fords. The new owners blew away the 2nd gen Camaros, but lost to the Fords