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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
So after spending a whole day at Carlisle yesterday and covering 90+ percent (must be getting old, my legs still hurt), I noticed there was next to no third gen f-body stuff! Saw a few used TPI setups, a couple sets of wheels, and a guy carrying a used (cracked) Camaro dash pad. Our cars are now in the 25+ year old range, but don't yet seem to have the appeal or collectability of first and second gen cars. Just curious to see if anyone else is seeing the same? Will third gens ever be as desirable as first gen cars? Just figured I'd throw this out to get opinions...
Desirable but never as much as the 1st gens im afraid.. They are relatively cheap and easier to work on than the newer ones so there will be a place for them. Now on being worth a whole lot.. maybe not so much unless its extremely low mileage or special edition cars like the TTA.
1st gens,especially '69s are so overhyped 3rd gens will never get to the same status -btw,i owned a '69 so I know all the pros/cons of those VS 3rd gen ... Later 2nd gen,especially 1975-77 were not at all desirable for quite a while.Thirdgens were not made in the 1955-72 years and therefore do not appeal to the Graybeard collector car hobbyst type-other than those people,mine sure seems to turn a lot of heads-drive by a school bus and you should see all the admiring noses pressed against the windows! Hard to believe ,but an '82 third is as old in 2016 as a '57 chevy was in 1991....
I know 1st gens are going for some money, but for me personally, they are completely played out. I might walk past a dozen 1st gens without so much as an inclination to even look at them, before I'll find one which even warrants my attention.
I know 1st gens are going for some money, but for me personally, they are completely played out. I might walk past a dozen 1st gens without so much as an inclination to even look at them, before I'll find one which even warrants my attention.
Just me, though.
Not just you.And ive noticed this at car shows the last few years.Way too many 1st gen camaros and they do not get noticed or bring the trophies as much as your GTOs, Chevelles,or Cutlass442s.
I search for thirdgens everyday, and the prices have started to shoot up in the last 2 years. They will be very desirable in the near future. I remember the day when I couldn't find anyone who liked them, now everyone I talk to loves them. I have owned a '69 Camaro and I will break my neck looking at a third gen going down the road before a 1st gen Camaro. As the saying goes, "'69 Camaros are like buttholes; everyone has one." I love them, but it's true...
I was at the Raceway Park swap meet in Englishtown NJ and had the same experience. There was nothing for third gens save for a few less then desirable parts. But I think, as a whole, swap meets have suffered with the advent of places like Ebay and Craigslist that allow a person to sell parts year round. What winds up at swap meets are all the garbage that could not be sold online.
I know 1st gens are going for some money, but for me personally, they are completely played out. I might walk past a dozen 1st gens without so much as an inclination to even look at them, before I'll find one which even warrants my attention.
Just me, though.
I Just Got Back From A Car Show And There Had To Be 10-15 First Gens,And This One And Only Third Gen,Would Have Been 2 If I Brought My Car,But I'm Doing Some Work On It.
Whatever the virtues of these cars are, and I can't stress strongly enough that they have MANY, "that kind" of "value" isn't one of them. Or maybe I should even add, the LACK OF "that kind" of "value", is IN FACT, one of their virtues.
The general public did not then, does not now, and will not EVER, care about these cars the way we do. Do not expect that FACT to change. Do not hallucinate that however much you WISH it would, that it will EVER change: IT WON'T. Instead, ENJOY it. It means that you can find these cars EVERYWHERE for just STOOOPID CHEEEEEEEP, and you can ENJOY them for what they are (fine driving machines) without having to pay for what they are NOT (cultural icons of a bygone era).
And furthermore, as I have posted OVER AND OVER, it's not just 3rd gen F bodies. Widen your gaze a bit at those shows, and tell me how many Mustangs, Mopars, Pontiacs, Vettes, Oldsmobiles, or WHATEVER ELSE, you see there, newer than 73 or so, that command "that kind" of "value". It's not about "these cars", as such; it's about the time they were born into. The culture around them simply DIDN'T, DOESN'T, and NEVER WILL EXIST like it does for the 60s muscle cars.
That's just the way carslile is. When I went 4 yrs ago it was almost all 70s and older. Practically no third fen parts. Go to another swap meet such as englishtown and it was tons of third gen stuff.
I think that one of the big things that keep most people away from 3rd Gens is that no one knows how to work on them. No one wants to deal with the silver box with no moving parts that's tucked under the dash.
This should change in the future because no one really works on cars anymore. They just buy that Barracuda or Chevelle already done. Instant, "Look at ME!"
same for me. when i bought my 82 my friends laughed at me. they said what a waste of money for an old beat up car. they warned me it would never be worth what i would put into it. you dont buy a car like this though for resale value. you buy it cause its something thats a part of you. for a third gen fan theres nothing in the world that compares to driving in an old firebird even if it runs like poop lol. even if our cars never get recogniZed as valuable or collectible they will always be #1 to us. good enough for me.
And it ISN'T the day of "resale value". Wasn't then, isn't now, NEVER will be.
Our cars WILL NEVER have "Carlisle", "Mecum", "Barrett-Jackson", type of "value". Anybody that still hasn't actually LOOKED AROUND THEMSELVES and still thinks that they will, or even MIGHT, is delusional, stupid, in denial, in fantasy land, or worse.
Yes these cars are "collectible" TO US. Fact of the matter is though, NOT TO ANYONE ELSE. Your fantasy does not automatically obligate the rest of the world to participate, no matter how sincere you are about it. The more you refuse to accept reality, the less credible you are.
Separate carefully in your mind things like
you buy it cause its something thats a part of you
from
Way too many 1st gen camaros and they do not get noticed or bring the trophies as much as your GTOs, Chevelles,or Cutlass442s
Been in this game since 1995. I can't ever remember seeing much of anything thirdgen related at swap meets, flea markets, car shows, etc. Most I've ever seen at one show is probably about 4 or maybe 5 thirdgens.
I looked up the NADA collector value for my Iroc two years ago and took a screen shot. I looked it up again the other day, and the value in all but the beater category has gone up about $2k. I'm seeing a lot more really nice cars on the forum, or selling for higher prices on ebay. As far as I can tell, things are looking up. But there's zero money to be made in restorations or even parts. There are still so many NICE thirdgens out there, a person would have to be mental to mess with one that needs much of anything.
That's just the way carslile is. When I went 4 yrs ago it was almost all 70s and older. Practically no third fen parts. Go to another swap meet such as englishtown and it was tons of third gen stuff.
Eric - there was not much decent third gen stuff at E-town last week. Just a bunch of really worn parts.
What day did you go? It didn't stand out but there was a lot of stuff. I bought a good Camaro dash pad, tan console with clock, full set of tan 82 seatbelts, full set of 84 tan seatbelts, 6 working factory radios, and a nice 3 spoke wheel. I passed a bunch of other parts there such as the slp headers I saw. All the big third gen spots are done after this swap meet but people have random parts here and there
I bought my first Camaro in 1975. It was a Ralley green 69 Z28. It hard on gas, allways had to tune it and easy to work on it. Had several 69 Camaro's until I bought my first 90 Iroc Z convertible in 1995. Still have it & still love it. 10 yrs. ago I bought my second 3rd gen and restored it, drove it a couple years and sold it. since that car I have purchased over 20 87-92 Iroc and Z28 convertibles that I when through to make them very nice. Sold them to buy the next one. Still have seven verts left. They are my favorite Camaro. They are not that fast or hard to work on, but a blast to drive. My son and brother both have 69 Z28 Camaro's, but they have never had a third gen. Go to several swap meets each year and see very few 3rg gen parts. Thank god for the internet and 3rd gen.org. Considering purchasing a 5th gen Camaro soon to see what they are all about, but will always have my Red 90 Iroc Z vert. Sorry about the long thread but I have been around Camaro's for over 40 yrs. And they are the best. JIM
It's generational. I remember having a Matchbox IROC and watching Knight Rider reruns, as well as getting a brochure from the Chevy dealer when the 96 Z28 SS came out.
My ranking of Camaros: thirdgens on top, followed by fourthgens. Second and firstgens can fight for third place. Next is gen 6, while gen 5 is dead last.
The car collectors have been people who grew up before the 80s and to them, 80s cars are considered "modern" even though they are 30 years old.
A mint IROC can turn heads at a show because it stands out.
There are too many 60s Camaros and Mustangs.. I can only look at a few and then have to move on..
Once people start seeing some nice examples, the cars will catch the attention of collectors.
I know a couple collectors that have museum quality IROCS and TTAs that they held on to since the 80s because they knew no one would have one in 30 years.
Even back then I thought it was cool to have a mint, showroom, original 3rd gen because so many people would mod them, put stickers all over them, crazy spoilers, weird paint, terrible wheels, awful performance mods, and beat the crap out of them and smash them up.
Even in the 90s you could see these cars wouldn't be around long based on how people treated them..
People would try to "improve" on their third gens, but didn't realize just keeping them factory showroom turned more heads.
These cars are special and people are slowly figuring it out.. I feel bad for the guy that spends $80k on a first gen and gets less attention than the showroom IROC that someone finds for $15k.
All that matters is getting the car you like anyway.. I feel bad for people that don't get it.
When I was getting a wire to buy my IROC I told the banker I was buying a Camaro Convertible and she said, "Oh, what year?" When I said, "1988" she replied, "oh" and seemed confused.
I felt bad for her that she had no Idea how cool those cars were. The picture in people's heads of an 80s Camaro is not of a showroom IROC.. If she saw the car in person she would have been much more impressed.. I'd rather have my IROC any day than a first gen and if I could trade for a first gen, I'd sell it and buy 4 third gens and a Grand National.
I love Third Gens and feel bad for people that are clueless to them..
You would be hard pressed to find someone who would not think a 69 Camaro looks cool. It's one of those classic bodies that are timeless, but you don't know why. It's like an E type Jag or a 59 Cadillac. The problem I see with classic cars now is the demographic. What happens when the baby boomers die out? I do not personally know anyone close to my age (38) that would want to spend big money on a car without a/c, bluetooth, power seats, power locks, power windows, and navigation. Even my generation wants to know how may exterior cameras it has. I daily drove a 66 Corvair convertible for two years, and I would never go back to that lack of technology.
To buy an modernized 72 or older car, you would have to get into the BMW M5 price range. What I like about by 85 is that it has all the power options you need without the nannies ruining the driving experience. Someone will always find a way to hype something to make money off it in the auto business.
PurelyPMD said what I was trying to say in A lot less words.. Ha ha..
I think people want modern conveniences, but it's also cool to have a weekend cruiser that's vintage or classic..
I also think the resto-mod thing is going to get even bigger..
I'd love to have an IROC that looked like a 100% 80s car in and out, but was a 2016 Z06 underneath with crazy brakes, suspension, etc.. Nothing wrong with adding nav and Bluetooth without ruining the car..
It's not that I don't like and appreciate first gens, just never wanted one.
I appreciate all classic cars, but I like representing third gens because they've always been an underdog.
There's got to be less third gens out there now than first gens.. At least that's what I see on the road..
I see more first gen firebirds in one year on the road than I've seen third gens in 10 years..
I think whenever a breed is about to die out, people will try to come together and save it. The cars that are left go up in value..
As posted by Sofa...this is really the start and end of this conversation.
And furthermore, as I have posted OVER AND OVER, it's not just 3rd gen F bodies. Widen your gaze a bit at those shows, and tell me how many Mustangs, Mopars, Pontiacs, Vettes, Oldsmobiles, or WHATEVER ELSE, you see there, newer than 73 or so, that command "that kind" of "value". It's not about "these cars", as such; it's about the time they were born into. The culture around them simply DIDN'T, DOESN'T, and NEVER WILL EXIST like it does for the 60s muscle cars
It's a fun discussion. Always is. ...but it's not like our cars don't get love. It's really more a function of only a few cars, throughout history DO get love!!!!!
With all that said, our cars are inching up in value. Will they ever go for the same price as a '57 Chevy or '69 Camaro? Who knows, and honestly I don't really care.
But I'll tell you this: 5 years ago you could spend $6 or $7K and get a really nice, mid-miles, (like 30 -70K), IROC-Z or Trans Am. Try that now. And the super minty, low miles cars are going for high teens or low 20's. Those were $12K cars 5 years ago.
Wow, been busy the past couple days and just now got a chance to jump on here and read everything. Great discussion and many interesting points of view. I gotta admit my number one dream car is a 69 z28. But my love affair with these cars started in 1983 when I was waiting for the school bus and a guy that lives down the street drove by in the first "new" Camaro in town. Today, whenever I see a third gen at a show and or for sale I always compare it to my IROC, lol! I paid $9000 for it 6 years ago, and I'd like to think I would able to get at least that if I'd try to sell it tomorrow? And the used parts aspect? I'm always browsing the old interweb and rarely find stuff that guys are really needing or looking for. Back in the early 2000's I was an eBay fool. I parted about a half dozen cars and made some nice coin. Of course back then (sounds like a long time ago, lol) a nice used TPI setup went for like 4-500 bucks depending how nice it was. It really is an interesting conversation... Personally, I've always felt like the 80's cars kinda revived the muscle car era of the 60's. Our cars and the Mustaings of the day were actually faster and way more refined than their muscle car ancestors and we were loving it. Funny how 30 years later we're still trying to figure out how "classic" our cars are...
What day did you go? It didn't stand out but there was a lot of stuff. I bought a good Camaro dash pad, tan console with clock, full set of tan 82 seatbelts, full set of 84 tan seatbelts, 6 working factory radios, and a nice 3 spoke wheel. I passed a bunch of other parts there such as the slp headers I saw. All the big third gen spots are done after this swap meet but people have random parts here and there
I went on Saturday afternoon. I saw a bunch of faded interior plastics, some well worn seats and door cards, a TPI set up missing half the parts, a set of GTA rims that were rashed and overpriced, etc. I didn't have much luck, although I mainly went looking for fox body parts. I didn't turn up much of that either that was worthwhile.
Things come and go as the breeze blows. Honestly the 3rd gen is within the "in between" Next year will be the first year that every 3rd gen will be at least 25 years old. They lasted longer and held up better to the weather than the rust bucket prone 1st and 2nd gens, (Especially 2st gens) so there is and was a supply of parts and still is out there if you know where to look, so aftermarket really does not have to get involved yet. When the supply of decent parts is gone, and the selling price will outweigh the cost of the manufacture of the parts is when you will find that they will start producing said parts.
The Camaro will have a larger supply of parts, just because they made more of them and are much more common than the Firebird. Fortunately many of the parts interchange, so keeping them on the road will not be horribly difficult.
The Challenge will be keeping those little parts that are now gone to original specs. If you did not buy an OE turn signal lever 10 years ago, you are now SOL, everything is wrong, but you can get something that works.
There-in-lies the problem, Too many people are willing to take whatever will work to get it to function and not enough people are willing to invest in their car to make it right. When we stop whining, moaning and groaning about how expensive things are, then they will start making parts, at a price.
I like what 88IrocvertZ said. "if I could trade for a 1st gen i would sell it and buy 4 third gens and a Grand National." Me too. Ive been around some of the nicest of classic musclecars all my life. My dad, my uncles, several friendsof ours, have those great muscle cars and yes I love em. But.. driving a 62 Corvette with no power steering isn't that fun to me. Cruising in some of these old cars with no A/C in the summer down south sucks! A nice third gen that still has great suspension, decent power, and the creature comforts like a/c and power everything, give me that car to drive and enjoy. If I had a 1st gen it would only be for investment purposes. These third gens look great and if properly maintained are great drivers.
When we stop whining, moaning and groaning about how expensive things are, then they will start making parts, at a price.
I'm not whining about price as much as I'm whining about **** quality at a premium price. I'd gladly pay a FAIR price for a part that is truly identical to the original equipment, but far too often the only option that is accurate is NOS with an Ebay/Barret-Jackson price tag.
The last sentence is kind of a tongue and cheek thing The truth is when it is profitable, they will make them. If it is ever profitable to make them "right" we will have to wait and see.
People will whine, but for a good reproduction of a part that can't be found and may never get reproduced, they will save up and get over it..
...through my time on Thirdgen.Org....that has not been the case. As time goes on, we shall see. LOTS of people put together some great ideas....post some pics, throw out a price and people scatter like cockroaches when the light turns on.
I will always love the 69 RS. Wether its a Z28, supersport or just a plain RS. That car always turns my head! They cost crazy money now though. At the same time I love a nice showroom stock IROCZ as well. The difference is the 69 will retain its value for the most part where the IROCZ will depreciate if its a low mile car that you end up driving a lot. I will never buy another low mile IROC again but I would buy a decent one that has higher miles on it for a more reasonable price that I can drive and enjoy without worrying about killing its value because of the miles. I don't think they will ever see consistent first generation prices but they are getting more expensive. They just need to shake that stigma of the 1980s ****** crowd.
When people see more nice examples of IROCs original or restored they will shake the stigma of the 80s. Some of the 80s nostalgia will help the car too..
I do think right now you'd have to worry about putting too many miles on it.. But I know guys with first Gens like that.. If you have a show car, it only comes out on special occasions..
A low mile IROC only driven 5 months/year on weekends could go up in value quite a bit in 10 years. Living in New England will help you keep the miles down..
Up until now they weren't really worth much and they are just starting to climb. If you got a low mile IROC in the 2000s and sold before now, you didn't wait long enough. It will be another 5-10 years..
They may never catch the first gens (though there was a super low mile 1990 1LE that went for big money at auction)
One of the first rules of buying a classic car is buy a car you like and that you are dying to drive. That way if it doesn't go up in value a ton you still get to enjoy the car.
One of my friends from college just randomly bought a black IROC. I didn't even know he was into cars. He puts pics on Facebook all the time. His wife said he could get a sportscar or classic car and that's what he picked.
This to me is a good sign. This is a guy who didn't ever have a third gen in high school or anything. This is a guy who decided the IROC was a really cool car and bought one for his weekend cruiser. He loves the 80s and blasts 80s music and drives around with his daughter and the T-Tops off.. He always talks about how the IROC is the coolest car ever..
The stigma of the trashy, beat up cars will fade and a really cool symbol of a really unique and fun time will be left. And people with money will want one. Then the collectors will want them and then we (some of us) won't be able to buy them..
I'm 36... my friends in high school drove thirdgens, there were at least 10 of us that had them. Most of them have either bought another one recently and some even still have their original car after all these years. Others I know are currently looking right now for either a thirdgen, C4 Vette, Fox mustang, or GN, as those were our dream cars growing up.
For reference on pricing, my family bought this 69 Camaro back in the year 2000. Car has 38k original miles, 327 4-speed, one show quality repaint. It's a basic non-RS/Z28/SS car, and we added the SS wheels to it and stripes years back. But otherwise, its the same car as purchased in 2000. Car was bought then for $9k, and that was all the money then. They have gone up quite a bit in value since then, and all of my friends who are looking for thirdgens right now continue to remark about how the nice low mile stuff is getting expensive, certainly more than it was even a couple years back.
I search for thirdgens everyday, and the prices have started to shoot up in the last 2 years. They will be very desirable in the near future. I remember the day when I couldn't find anyone who liked them, now everyone I talk to loves them. I have owned a '69 Camaro and I will break my neck looking at a third gen going down the road before a 1st gen Camaro. As the saying goes, "'69 Camaros are like buttholes; everyone has one." I love them, but it's true...
I think so to. I used to look at the used auto papers while waiting for the bus when I was in high school 15 years ago and I could see third gens for sale in the auto trader newspapers all the time. And back then they were selling anywhere from $800 up to $1500. But now what I notice is there is rarely ever any third gens advertised for sale and if there is, they are asking between $4K up to $8K for them. And they are decent but not perfect cars. So I think your right about the prices going up on these. Plus parts are really hard to find anymore.
I'm in the process of hunting down a project third gen at the moment and really hard to find anything decent in Northern CA. Most if not all seem to be located out of state. And any that are in like for example Los Angeles area, seem to be total basket cases.
I also notice there are a lot more 1st gens out on the roads these days then third gens. Same with older Mustangs and VW bugs. There are tons of these older cars and I will see one at least once every other day or so. But third gens? Never. I think the last time I saw a third gen in person out on the road was at least six months ago.
I was at the Raceway Park swap meet in Englishtown NJ and had the same experience. There was nothing for third gens save for a few less then desirable parts. But I think, as a whole, swap meets have suffered with the advent of places like Ebay and Craigslist that allow a person to sell parts year round. What winds up at swap meets are all the garbage that could not be sold online.
Other then TPI stuff 3rd gen parts are rather rare in my neck of the woods too. The swap meets are full of hot rod and roadster parts mixed with newer LS stuff.
Originally Posted by asgard815
same for me. when i bought my 82 my friends laughed at me. they said what a waste of money for an old beat up car. they warned me it would never be worth what i would put into it. you dont buy a car like this though for resale value. you buy it cause its something thats a part of you. for a third gen fan theres nothing in the world that compares to driving in an old firebird even if it runs like poop lol. even if our cars never get recogniZed as valuable or collectible they will always be #1 to us. good enough for me.
I ran into a guy from HS a few weeks ago and he joked about the '85 Z28 I had back then. He flipped when I told him I still have an '87 IROC that looks just like the '85. I love my 3rd gens and will always have one.
Originally Posted by ev305tpi
I'm 36... my friends in high school drove thirdgens, there were at least 10 of us that had them. Most of them have either bought another one recently and some even still have their original car after all these years. Others I know are currently looking right now for either a thirdgen, C4 Vette, Fox mustang, or GN, as those were our dream cars growing up.
I'm 38 and all of my freinds are doing or have done the same thing.
I'm 36... my friends in high school drove thirdgens, there were at least 10 of us that had them. Most of them have either bought another one recently and some even still have their original car after all these years. Others I know are currently looking right now for either a thirdgen, C4 Vette, Fox mustang, or GN, as those were our dream cars growing up.
For reference on pricing, my family bought this 69 Camaro back in the year 2000. Car has 38k original miles, 327 4-speed, one show quality repaint. It's a basic non-RS/Z28/SS car, and we added the SS wheels to it and stripes years back. But otherwise, its the same car as purchased in 2000. Car was bought then for $9k, and that was all the money then. They have gone up quite a bit in value since then, and all of my friends who are looking for thirdgens right now continue to remark about how the nice low mile stuff is getting expensive, certainly more than it was even a couple years back.
There is money to be made in both the old & the new cars however I'm betting heavily on the 3rd gens at the moment.
I bought my two Judge hardtops for 25k each and at the time that was all the money. My 71 was restored but an automatic, my 70 was half restored but a RA IV/M21/4:33 car. The 71 got sold in a cash & car deal a few years ago that left me with a check that was well above what I had paid for it & a special 14,000 mile 73 TA. The 70 went within a few months, with no more work done on it, for cash, lots of it!
I love third gens but, seriously I can't compare that green Judge to a third gen. I'd take that Judge over half a dozen third gens....any day!
Never the less, I do hope you're right about third gens being a collector car sometime soon. I've been starting up planning for a third gen project recently cause they are around and parts are available at reasonable prices still. Figured I've always wanted a third gen project, better start now while the getting is good.
There is money to be made in both the old & the new cars however I'm betting heavily on the 3rd gens at the moment.
I bought my two Judge hardtops for 25k each and at the time that was all the money. My 71 was restored but an automatic, my 70 was half restored but a RA IV/M21/4:33 car. The 71 got sold in a cash & car deal a few years ago that left me with a check that was well above what I had paid for it & a special 14,000 mile 73 TA. The 70 went within a few months, with no more work done on it, for cash, lots of it!
Love it!!
I didn't know you had a 70 RA IV Judge, rare car!!! I'm sure that brought in lots of $$!!
I love third gens but, seriously I can't compare that green Judge to a third gen. I'd take that Judge over half a dozen third gens....any day!
Never the less, I do hope you're right about third gens being a collector car sometime soon. I've been starting up planning for a third gen project recently cause they are around and parts are available at reasonable prices still. Figured I've always wanted a third gen project, better start now while the getting is good.
Everyone's opinion is different... I owned this a couple years back, wasn't a Judge but it was a very clean '70 with a 400/4-speed with AC and ram air... Traded it plus cash for ("wait for it...") a C4 corvette... and it was the best thing I ever did. Granted it's a very special rare C4, but I truly despised that GTO... I would have traded it in a heartbeat for a special low mile thirdgen
04-23-2016, 09:50 PM
-btw,i owned a '69 so I know all the pros/cons of those VS 3rd gen 
