Bull

iTrader: (5)

Believe it or not, there is a guy who established a database for Ford Granadas/Mercury Monarchs. When one would appear on eBay, a junkyard or elsewhere, he'd get as much info about it as possible, and include it in his database. The idea was to keep track of where these cars are and how many are left.

What if someone started one for thirdgens, or maybe just the low production kinds? For example, I know that one of the few hundred '92 L98 CC1 Formulas just bit the dust and got scrapped. Makes me wonder how many are actually left.

speedflea

You mean something along these lines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ratofortresses

Someone compiled a list of known B52s.

Problem with cars, In particular 3rd gens, is that they produced so bloody many of them.

this site https://www.thirdgen.org/1991-chevy-camaro says that there were 79,854 1991 Camaro RS built. I own one of them. I can tell you the status and condition of it and that only leaves 79,853 to go for the year 1991 alone.

Its truly a monumental task to compile that sort of list.

It would be interesting to find my cars sequential neighbors but due to the sheer numbers involved...

Well any way, I guess If someone wants some info on it in the interest of compiling such a list I will do what I can to help out

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Well, that is why I mention the lower production thirdgens, specifically. 300 or so '92 Formula 350 t-top cars, 300 or so '92 Trans Am 350s, GTA production in the low thousands (right?) for '91 and '92 both etc. There are others, but those are the ones I'm familiar with...beyond the obvious Firehawk, TTA, and 1LE cars, too.

Far different than trying to track down 70,000 RS cars.

TTA850

I can tell you it is going to take alot of time, the problem with the lower production cars is that they show up alot less often. For example I've been keeping track of hardtop TTA's scince I purchased my first TTA (about 10 years ago) and so far have located only 13 hardtops, including the two I own, and only have the vin for 9 of them. While on the subject, if anyone reading this has info on a hardtop TTA please email me at TTA850@optonline.net

I say pick a model and start keeping track, you can learn alot about these cars. And I'd suggest you dont rely on others for help, with the TTA's there are at least two people who have complete TTA vin information (with lots of other factory info) and they refuse to share it.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

I believe that it will take a lot of time. I DON'T understand why people would have production info and refuse to share it, unless they are working on a book for publication and don't want to give away their profitable research. Part of the problem might be that some of those people who own desirable cars, like TTAs, become snobs.

I figure, if people can start and maintain such a database for higher production, not very desirable cars (Ford Granada/Mercury Monarch) then doing it for low production thirdgens makes sense.

87 player bird

I just bought an 87 a4u(one of 22) from Mark in alberta if this helps.

speedflea

There are two reasons that a person would refuse to share info like that.

One is the snob factor. self explanatory

The second is the opposite, ignorance. how many people even know what they have. Those of us on this board certainly would know but not everyone that owns an F-body is a user of this or any other forum. Not everyone by a long shot. believe it or not there are tons of people that just think of their 3rd gens as 'a cheap car' And that would be because they are. bought mine for 1300.

Lets say a guy buys a b4c at a police auction. Guy goes to the auction looking for a good deal on a car. And there it is lot number 645, a Camaro. Sure says guy I'll bid. Low and behold he wins. Because he sees five a week though, he don't think anything of it. Now time rolls on and he decides to sell the car, advertises 1991 camaro for sale 1500 obo. now does the next owner know what they got??

So your gonna find snobs and your gonna find the uninformed. But the real weak spot will be the ones that are not listed on any public forum at all. So if your able to find out who they are at all, Thanks to stalker laws, what are the odds they will be forth coming with the info based on a cold call.

It seems that the best way to reach those that have one is to bombard the general public with a mass media assault urging people to call 1 800 hot-Fbod and register. now how much is that gonna cost??

Hope that number isn't a real one

okfoz

Here is a list of the cars of significance with an L98 or are a 1LE... I DID NOT include many 305 cars just because there are so MANY of them, and dtermining how many were with a 5 speed is impossible at this point...

There is a thread here http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/hi...car-rare.html?

Some of the numbers overlap, for example there were 26 L69 Trans am's in 1986, of those 22 were players Series cars... I made mention where possible.

1 (1992) SLP Firehawk Convertible
1 (1992) SLP Firehawk T-top
1 (1989) PAS TTA Test Car with Hardtop & Leather Interior
3 (1989) ASC/PAS TTA's Convertibles
3 (1988) Trans Am 1LE
4 (1988) Camaro 1LE
4 (1989) PAS TTA's Test Cars with T-Top & Cloth Interior
4 (1990) Trans Am 1LE
5 (1992) Players Trans Am R7U
9 (1992) Trans AM 1LE
14 (1990) Players Trans Am R7U
15 (1989) PAS TTA's Hardtop & Cloth Interior
17 (1989) Players Trans Am R7U
20 (1988) Players Trans Am A4U
22 (1986) Players Trans Am A4Q
22 (1987) Players Trans Am A4U
22 (1992) Formula 1LE
23 (1991 & 1992) SLP Firehawks Hard top
24 (1989) PAS TTA's Hardtop & Leather Interior
26 (1986) Trans Am L69 (4 were Non Players cars)
26 (1989) Trans Am 1LE
30 (1992) Players Camaro R7U
32 (1991) Players Camaro R7U
39 (1989) PAS Hard Top TTA's
42 (1989) ASC Formula 350 convertibles
46 (1991) Formula 1LE
53 (1987) Players Camaro A4U
62 (1990) Camaro 1LE
63 (1986) Players Camaro A4Q
65 (1989) Players Camaro R7U
71 (1988) Players Camaro A4U
74 (1986) Camaro L69 (11 were Non Players Cars)
111 (1989) Camaro 1LE
140 (1989) ASC L98 Trans Am & L98 GTA Convertibles
144 (1992) (US Sales) L98 GTA's
187 (1989) PAS TTA T-Top & Cloth Interior
190 (1992) (US Sales) Trans Am W/L98
200 (1991 & 1992) (ESTIMATE) Formula 350 T-top
700 (1991) Trans Am or GTA W/L98 (ESTIMATE)
403 (1992) (US sales) Formula 350's
478 (1991) Camaro 1LE
595 (1990) (US Sales) GTA W/L98
705 (1992) Camaro 1LE
1,030 (1989) Formula 350 with T-tops (a number was given to me from another owner who claimed he got it from GM)
1,321 (1989) PAS TTA T-Top & Leather Interior
1,321 (1991) (US Sales) GTA W/L98
1,900 (1990) Formula, GTA & Trans Am W/L98
2,415 (1990) IROC-Z Hard Top L98
3,038 (1992) Z28 Hard Top L98 (1992)
3,562 (1987) (Est Probably High) Formula 350
6,080 (1991) Z28 Hard Top L98
6,554 (1989) (US Sales) Hard Top GTA W/L98
6,913 (1988) (US Sales) Hard Top GTA W/L98
7,818 (1987) (US Sales) Hard Top Trans Am & GTA L98
10,793 (1988) Formula, GTA & Trans Am W/L98
12,105 (1987) IROC-Z L98
12,116 (1988) IROC-Z L98
12,370 (1989) IROC-Z L98
13,041 (1989) Formula, GTA & Trans Am W/L98

Bull

iTrader: (5)

That's a great list, and a good place to start. There are plenty of low production cars there that would be worth tracking.

TTA850

One of the converibles was made from Pilot car #3 (t-top car).

And 6820 of the 8470 Y84 cars (which includes Y82 cars) built for 1989 had CC1 so how could there be 6554 hardtop L98 Y84 cars? If anything, for 1989 at least, the 366 LB9/MM5 cars built are worth mentioning.

okfoz

1) I belive I have the 3 TTA Verts on the top of the list, this should include that car.

2) I appreciate your concern HOWEVER I do not nor DID not have the information as you describe... ALSO Originally I did not include many 305's as it was not on topic for the thread in which the original list was made... I added a few L69's just because they were Very Rare for 1986...

3) What is your source for the information for T-top L98 cars for 1989 GTA's or Trans Am's? Usually that information is NA because of the complexity of keeping such records... If you have some cars or information to add to my list, post it, I would be interested in adding it to the List...

In all honesty I think all of the cars which more than 500 were made should not have even be mentioned as they are not Rare, Especially when you take cars from other years which were basically the same (in the eyes of the public) For example the difference between a 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991 & 1992 L98 GTA are essentially not worth mentioning because most people or collectors would really not care about individual year productions... For example the cars that really hold value are those 1 Year only cars like a 1969 Camaro with the Aluminum 427... It was ONE YEAR... So I will argue that the cars which are REALLY worth mentioning are those 1 year cars which are unusual, for example the 140 GTA or Trans Am Convertibles with the L98, since it was NA any other year its special, OR cars that over the long haul of 5 or 6 years of production where the total is less than a maximum of 500 TOTAL... I could go on but will not...

I degress...



John

TTA850

1) Yes but you also have 1321 t-top/leather cars and 4 t-top/cloth pilot cars, it should read 1322 and 3 if you want to consider the verts part of the production/pre-production group (which I dont)

2) No concern here, I understand the list was created for other reasons and you said it only included L98 or 1LE cars in your post. I only posted about the 366 305 GTA's built in 1989 because I was commenting on the hardtop L98 1989 GTA figure in the list (and I happen to like 1989 GTA's )

3) My source is the GTA source page, and while it doesnt list RPO combinations it doesnt take much to figure some of them out. For example simple math says that:
6820 Y84 cars built with CC1
1511 Y82 cars built with CC1
4 pilot TTA's built with CC1 (which were not originally optioned as TTA's)

That leaves 5305 Y84 cars built with CC1 and V8 engines, assume the 366 LB9 cars were all t-top (which I know for a fact is not true), that leaves you with at least 4939 of the 6554 L98 Y84 cars were built with CC1 and no more than 1615 L98 Y84 cars were fixed roof.

Your list is very good, if I had to add anything it would be cars that I think are unique like the 1992 GTA's in 1992 only colors and the notchback GTA's, but I do agree with you on what is considered rare and add the fact that rare does not always make a car desireable. Thats whats great about cars, find something YOU like and go with it. Doesnt matter what anyone else thinks.

Steve

Bull

iTrader: (5)

There are plenty of musclecars from the 60's of which more than 500 were made that people consider relatively rare, or at least not common, and therefore desirable today.

okfoz

Ultimately what makes a car desirable for MOST people is performance, Secondly is a Convertible... Then if you have something that is reasonably Rare AND you have Performance and OR a Vert then you got something. Historically speaking thats the trend that I see pure and simple...

BUT like you said, its all a matter of perspective and what people like... THere is NO Doubt that the TTA will have one of the highest values of ALL Third Gens, even though they made 1555 of them, 1555 is not a rare number by any stretch of the immagination. However Fortunately it has the performance factor hands down only to be rivaled by the 91-92 Firehawks... To add to my conclusions you take the most valued cars of ALL third Gens it WILL be the 4 Convertibles... THe 3 TTA's and 1 Firehawk...

John

hgletifer

I can design a site that will keep a list of any info you want. It could be something where the visiter of the site puts in info about there car (vin, model color miles loc, ECt...) and then saves it. that way it makes it own list.

Let me know what you think.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Sounds to me like an offer we should take advantage of.

JT

iTrader: (1)

We (TGO) could do the same In fact, I've personally done such for the GTA Notchback - though it's somewhat beta. One issue is that people don't always like to disclose their VIN, even if it's simply stored in a database and not shown on any public page. Okfoz explained some reasons as to why.

hgletifer

It was just an offer

Kevin84Z28

iTrader: (3)

No one knows how many cars there are in America. Many are not registered and are stored, in salvage yards, and some just sitting idle. But, there are approximately 250 million registered vehicles on the road today. That figure includes all types of vehicles. Approximately 16 million new vehicles are sold annually. When you look at it that way maybe they are rare...

Bull

iTrader: (5)

A generous offer, I think.

Could someone refresh my memory as to what dangers there are to submitting the VIN of your car to such a database?

JT

iTrader: (1)

No such comments were made to imply that it wasn't. But I simply pointed out that we (TGO) probably could do it on-site. Over the years of linking to material off-site, and having that said material disappear and/or moved by the host/owner who abandoned the project for one reason or another, and because we have the ability, I personally prefer to host whatever we can in-house to ensure it's still there, unless it can't be worked out.

I just don't think there has been a lot of interest stated here to get one started. But a few other F-Body websites do have their own versions. Then there is ironing out the details. If you're going to be collecting colors, for example, you might as well collect all the RPO codes you can since that's something many people are interested in. So then you probably want to provide all relevant RPO codes for those rare vehicles to the person registering, so that they can pick the options their vehicle has.

okfoz

I have considered making a Database as such, Unfortunately there would never be a way to actually get ALL of the Cars that exist, Since it is based on the Honor system it ultimately could be abused or owners could lie about what they had... IE I have a 1985 Trans Am with a L98... Well According to Pontiac they never made one of those... But someone said they had one... The BEST way to do it would actually contact someone that HAD the original Dealer invoices and go through them one BY one and put them into a database to actually spit out the info you needed... Of course if any of you had a good year of time to waste, go to town...

PHS has considered putting their information to Digital, starting with the 1964 GTO's & going from there, BUT the machine to actually read and decipher all of the information cost a TON of money and would not be financially responsible for such an investment. ( I know I will get some arguements about Buy a scanner and OCR software) As it turns out the information is not all that clear and Consumer grade OCR is good for Nicely typed text, not second hand blurry copies from the 60's, which is similar to what they had for quality.

In the end we will be stuck with what we have, and those people who were fortunate enough to get information (like the 1989 ASC Dealer order logs) are fortunate indeed as there would have never been the information generated without it.

There IS a way to actually figure out what cars are left according to AutoCheck and CARFAX, but I have mot sure of the legality of it by putting in VINS sequentially and seeing what comes back... Of course there is more work in that than someone really wants to invest as it took me almost two weeks to find the 309 VINS for the 1989 ASC verts. If you could plug in one car after another without doubt of the actual VIN it would take you about 1/8 the time... Unfortunately there are 8 or more possibilities for each sequential number, which leaves you with 10,000,000+ Vins entered vs 1,500,000 VINS entered for ALL years, without including the Firebirds... In the end NO one is that curious... AND I would think that CARFAX & AUTOCHECK would go after someone who tried legally because of the strain it would put on their system to do it Automatically.

John

kizz

iTrader: (1)

Well, I, for one, _am_ that curious. I know a lot of you guys frown upon the early thirdgen because there was high production and low performance, but the procedure okfoz describes, I did that exact thing for 1982 Firebirds, 6 or 7 years ago now. I set up some lynx (a text only web browser) scripts on some unix shell accounts I had, to dump the VIN summary page from carfax and/or autocheck, i.e. "we found 4 records" or "no records found" or "invalid number", etc., and depending on whether or not it was a car with actual records, I sorted those results into found and not-found categories, and eventually came up with a master VIN list for the whole 1982 Firebird run. it took months of on-and-off work, some of my IP addresses got blacklisted and I had to try from new ones, etc. It was pretty tedious, but I'm a persistent guy.

Some general conclusions: 1) Nobody came after me legally, but I totally see how they could've. 2) You will never find ALL vins with Carfax and Autocheck, even with that cumbersome 1-by-1 method. I only found 87450 of the 116364 VINs (75%). 3) the final VINs from Norwood and Van Nuys, if you add 'em together, suggest there were 116593 cars, not the official number of 116364, so this adds doubt at so how many cars were made. 4) there are about 10 - 20 VINs that come up with duplicate cars, i.e. impossibilities, so, those few, you could never be sure about. 5) You can't really tell rare stuff like 1LE and Players Series cars from a VIN alone. You just see very basic info like body style and engine type. Nor can you tell if the car is still roadworthy, or already crushed into a cube at a junkyard. 6) PHS, if they really have all factory invoices from all years, would be the only entity that could supply all the info needed for such a project, and even if a chump like myself volunteered to sort through it all and database it all at no cost or trouble to PHS, I believe they _still_ would not allow it, because this would take away their profit center, i.e. making $50 a pop when a customer writes in, wanting to look up a thirdgen, or anything else.

The pic below is a representation of my VIN project, with a different color for each car type found, and black pixels for cars not found. Image might be squashed. Look at it by itself for good resolution.

okfoz

The information PHS has is organized, BUT its NOT necessarily organized by VIN, but rather in some cases it was done by Dealer invoice. Apparently to get the information that they send out IE the Dealer invoice is an interesting process where they have to look up here then there and then pull the Dealer invoice... I was told that there is quite a bit of work that goes into it... And Why they would not look up the missing 15 VINS that are on my list...

I would also imagine that they would not allow you to rifle through their information because if you misfiled some of it they would NEVER find it again...

John

SolarGoldRaptor

Old topic, but I wanted to say I'm doing this for the 2nd Gen Firebird, I've got around 800 cars sorted by VIN in a Open Office Calc format with 90% of them having pictures. Most of the cars were found on eBay, unfortunately, some sellers don't show the VIN so I can't register all cars. I insert every car I find, from the Mint survivor to the rusty abandoned wreck.
I'm also making one for 3rd Gen Barracudas, with around 150 cars.

I could do this for early 3rd Gens, but they come in very limited number on eBay and without much pictures.

wildjeff

iTrader: (1)

kizz - having the VINs add up to more then the produced vehicle sounds about right. just like what happened to the 92 firehawk, cars where ordered, allocated, VINed but not producted. My 83 has two vin numbers on it from the factory. There are two on the block and two on the body and they match. one is crossed out but its still readable, and its not a stolen car, I have the original documentation and paper trail, also the cowl tag matches the correct VIN, futher the other VIN on my car is for a base firebird, my car is a V8 with manual, which (correct me if I'm wrong) was not an orderal option combo for the base firebird.

I'm also intered in the process of VIN harvesting, although primarily for the 82-84 firebirds, thats my focus. It can give an insite into the production process. I know its not for everyone but I find it interesting.

I also asked PHS about cataloging there data and was told no, in a nice way. I was told that to do the job right they would need a milloin dollor scanner to scan, OCR and dump everyting into a database. I suppose if I buy them a scanner they would probably give me the info on 82 firebirds I want....hmmm...where did I put that millon dollors....

David M

Wow, and I thought I was the only one doing this! I'm more on the Chevrolet end of it though. My list started around Dec. '87 and contains 1982-'87 Z28 and 1985-'87 IROC models. Not the rare ones ALL I could find. For years I carried around a camera in the car and with me during my job as a parts delivery person 1988-'92 looking for clean IROC's and Z28's. I wrote the VIN's down of each car, color, engine, tranny, interior color & trim level, t-tops or not. I have a neat cross referencing system since the pics are now all in albums and the VIN's are all in binders. The ebay thing is a good idea too, been doing that since '01. All those notes I keep seperate from the cars I actually saw and took pics of.
One day I'd like to compile all of the cars on one list and see just how many I have.

okfoz

Actually I have one more extensive in the stickies

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...re-asking.html

John

Aaron91RS

iTrader: (2)

I can't even imagine how much info we've lost over the years.
Even going back on the 'new version' of this site every pic back in 2000 is now a red X.
Then you think back to the old days with the indented first line reply board and how that info is all gone. (well maybe dirk has a backup somewhere but that pretty much means it's gone)
Not to mention back then we didn't always know what was rare and what wasn't. The amount of history we've forgot/lost is probably a very large stack.

Lastly I've 'backed up' certain things posted on different websites. I'd certainly like to post them over on www.team3rdgen.com so we had yet another copy of stuff, but I imagine someone would come along and complain about 'copying' their stuff. That they put of a fricking public message board in the first place.

This is a perfect example.
If you still have this share it with us so it can be backed up on multiple websites. Otherwise the info will probably be lost forever.