ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Well TGO...its been quite a while since I busted my car being stupid. I FINALLY took the leap and bought a motor. This thread will basically detail the tear down of the new motor, tear down of the old motor, and finally building/installing the new combo.

Motor I got is an 02 LQ4 from a 2500 truck that was rear ended. The guy I got it from claimed that it has 80k miles on it. Im not sure on that though. I also got a ton of parts. Just to kick off the thread, here are some pictures from today.



Some of the parts...












Ive got TONS of hardware, two sets of rockers, two sets of coil packs, two intakes, wire harness and pcm...and a bunch of other stuff. Everything will hopefully be for sale and will hopefully help me recoup some costs.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Here are some motor pics. All I did today was pull the valve covers, valley cover and the crank pulley.

The motor is pretty clean. It appears that it was hit with some spray paint at some point. The motor was supposedly going to be used as is in a project truck. So Im guessing someone tried to spruce it up. It turns over nice and smooth. I do see some carbon build up, and some things here and there...but I have to keep reminding myself that it is a 10 year old motor with 80k miles. SO its not going to look brand new and shiny right now haha.











A little dirty in the valvetrain, but certainly not sludged up.



Crank pulley off. That was fun but not too bad.



And finally...I couldnt resist haha.



I need to figure out for sure if I want to just leave the motor as is and slap it in. Or if I want to do anything to it. Ide like to install ARP rod bolts, but now Im reading up about having to have the rods resized. Some say you have to, some say toss bolts in and go. Some say you can only do that with Katech bolts etc etc. So Im not sure what to do there. Im not sure exactly how to determine if the rings are ok. Ide hate to put it in, and have tons of blowby like my old motor did, constantly putting oil into my intake.

I feel like it has a lot of endplay in the crank too. But again...Im not sure what is acceptable. Ill know more once I get the heads off and turn it over and see whats going on in the bottom end. I have to atleast pull a couple mains off and check the bearings out. THis motor has to go in, and stay in. I cant do another tear down after this haha.

There she is...hopefully I have more updates soon, but who knows. Going to order parts as I get extra money to do so. Once I have a nice pile of parts, it should go pretty smooth.

J.

mille_3

iTrader: (3)

The fun is about to begin

Here's a link to the service manual for the LQ4. Will give you all the tolerances. torque specs etc...

http://www.pleasurecraft.com/manuals/L510016.pdf

cprmn14

iTrader: (3)

Subscibed.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Dude...thanks for that link! I've never seen if before...didn't know it existed. That's going to come in handy BIG time. Printing it out at work tomorrow haha.

I have a feeling my crank end play is excessive. Might indicate more miles than claimed...or maybe its normal. I'll be honest. This will be my first tear down and assemble project of this magnitude. So maybe some of what I see is normal. I'll probably freak out about it until im sure haha.

Thanks again!

J.

mille_3

iTrader: (3)

lol....You'll be ok. The engine is actually very easy to work with. The manual will walk you through step by step of rebuilding it.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Since it turns over fine and looks mostly clean inside, Id put a new oil pump in and rock it as-is

coptzer

iTrader: (2)

Someone has been busy today....and man, you did get a ton of parts.

getting your thread started, and I will be keeping an eye on this one!

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Pocket: I have a ported pump on my LS1 now...I was going to just swap that over as it always had awesome, stable pressure. It has less than 15k miles on it. Should be ok I hope.

Would you even bother checking the bearings or plasti-gauging anything? Again..maybe its just me being paranoid. Any comments on crank end play? I just noticed when I grabbed the crank pulley and pulled in/out I had movement. Going by the specs, I feel like its way more than what its supposed to be. Or are those specs for a new, tight motor with new bearings?

J.

jamieschott

iTrader: (2)

Sub'd Nice link for the Lq4...

88blackiroc

iTrader: (1)

Glad to hear you brought it! Will follow this for sure, im sure ill be in the same boat as you very soon. Also good luck with this one

cam-

If I wasnt concerned about cost Id freshen the bottom end and maybe stroke? But I wouldnt BLINK at throwing it in as is and Id swap the rod bolts. The "resize it or else" Crowd is still suck in old school machine rod cap thinking. LS engines use a cracked rod so there is no way to over compress the bearing by simply swapping rod bolts AND following the correct torquing procedure. Most bottom end failures with LS engines are due to rod bolts breakages so for the hundo fifty? Its a no brainer imo

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I once had a 100K mile LQ4 and it didn't need a thing. Those iron blocks last forever. New rod bolts and oil pump and away you go.

Put money into the heads, cam it, and hold on!

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Haha if I put it in and it needs rebuilt you guys are coming out to help!

Ok. You have me feeling a bit more at ease. I still think Im going to at least check some things over once the pan is off. More for curiousity that anything else. As long as I dont find anything catastrophic, we'll run it.

Any thought on removing the ARP rod bolts from my LS1 and putting them in the LQ? New ones arent a WHOLE lot more, but ARP bolts are usually re-usable in other applications.

Also taking suggestions for new engine bay themes. Its not an alum block anymore. So...Im going to re-paint it but Im not sure what I want to do. Heads will be left alum. FAST will be left gray. But the block color, front cover color, and valve covers are up for ideas!!

Black it out? Silver/Alum paint? Purple??

J.

88blackiroc

iTrader: (1)

Is the top of your car purple? Kinda looks like it on my phone. If it is, id go with a real deep purple. Otherwise a shiny shiny black

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

No offense to anyone that likes purple, but Ide sooner strip naked and walk through a briar patch! haha.

I like shiny black. Valve covers too ya think? Leave the heads alum. Valve covers arent THAT important, because I do have coil covers. But I still havent filled them or anything. So who knows what Ill do with them. What about the front cover? Black it out too? Leave the water pump and accesories alum?

I cant get my mind off the crank end play. I keep reading horror stories about how guys find lots of play and end up getting a new motor. I really have to get back over there and check it out haha...its killing me now.

J.

88blackiroc

iTrader: (1)

Maybe a really dark purple.. almost black til light hits it.

cam-

To each his own regarding color scheme. Your never going to please everyone there so do what you think looks best it'll turn out fine im sure.

As for the endplay? Well.... its one of those things.... some set ups go boom and some dont even when there are very obvious problems. I had a 305 once that I bought knowingly with a pretty bad rod knock and the thing went another 100k before I sold it so? You take a chance and sometimes you get lucky. Id size er up the best you can and decide if you really need the peace of mind to fork out the green to freshen the bottom end or whether youd rather risk another potential engine swap in the future.

From the outside you sure dont seem afraid of work so what have you got to lose by throwing it in there for now? Its not like it wont run for a while at least and as most of us have said more often than not with these LS engines they seem to hang together.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Yeah I hear ya. Im DEF not afraid of the work. However...its a miracle that this is even happening at all. My wife has been very supportive and pretty much pushing me to not give up the hobby. This will be the last swap this car or any car sees for a long time. If I put this in, and it pops, thats it.

If I had a place to work at my house, and a little more disposable income, then maybe it wouldnt be an issue. Im not going broke or having to feed my kid chicken broth or anything by doing this. But its def not something I can dump more money into.

Right now, $150 for new main bearings (assuming the crank is ok) sounds like good insurance to me if I can install them, measure them, and run em. Thats well worth not having to do all this again anytime soon. Plus...if it had a problem putzing around in a truck, I dont know how that problem will like being flogged attached to a t56 and seeing higher RPMs. If I cant run the car like that...I dont even want to put another motor in it.

Im going to see when I can get over there next. Im just going at it. Pop the heads, flip it over, see whats what. I have the specs to measure the crank and all...so that'll help. Maybe I was just imagining things? Haha who knows.

J.

mille_3

iTrader: (3)

If I were you, I'd check the specs on endplay, plasti gauge the bearings and replace if necessary. Otherwise. Throw her in and let it fly.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

I think thats where Im headed. I think I might be overthinking it a tad. Best case scenario its fine and I slap it in. Middle of the road is the crank measures out fine and I replace all the bearings...which can only do good really. Worst case is the crank is botched and Ill just have to find a good used one and replace the bearings. Or use my LS1 crank...which I think is possible. Just decreases what I can get for my short block I guess.

We'll see. I want to go work on it now. I might take a day off work and just blow through a bunch of work. The weather is going to start making it harder to work outside though.

J.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

When I bought my LQ9 the plan was to slap LS3 heads & intake on it and put it in the car. Then I found out that my 62k mile motor was actually a 130k mile motor, so I tore it down. The motor looked brand new inside. BRAND NEW. If I was smart I would have just put it back together and ran it, but out came the credit card and a billion dollars and 2 years later I'm still putting the 403 stroker back together.

Just put the fricking motor in and run it.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

I agree. Very hard to not get into the "while i'm there i could do this and that" You will run out of money and a lot of times interest doing it that way. I told myself this ls1/t56 swap will be a cam only setup and not going to spend a fortune on a tubular k-member and do the brakes/paint ect all now. Just want a driving car then i will make it pretty when i get time.

dprest68

iTrader: (1)

Right there with you guys on that. Been there, done that! I'm attempting to follow Stevo's game plan. And not really succeeding either

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Haha I went through all this on the FIRST swap. With the 87. Thats why it got full suspension, brakes, wheels and tires, etc etc.

Ive got everything I need that would be a "while Im in here situation". The only extra things there are is to make sure she's gonna hold together. I have no desire to stroke it or spray it or do anything besides get her running. So anything I do will be out of necessity.

I really just gotta strip it down, and strip my LS down and start putting things together and see where I stand. I think Ill be in good shape.

J.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

If it's eating you alive(which i think it is lol), check the end play, pull off the oil pan and check the bearings. Freshin it up.

Me personally new oil pump + rock it as is.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

You got that right. Ive had the motor for 2 days and Im already pulling my hair out haha. Im trying not to be too ****...but its against my nature. I know these motors are tough, but I dont think I can stuff something in that has crazy amounts of end play. I dont want to risk destroying something that could have been avoided. Like I said, Ill do what I have to do and nothing more.

I mean..Ill still be rocking it as is in regards to the rings, cam and rod bearings haha.

Lets see...58 on wednesday but rainy... I can take a half day and run over and tear it down, and be home before the wife gets mad... Hmmmmm

J.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Have you set up a gauge and actually measured the endplay yet, or are you just guessing that it has a lot based on how it feels? Having a real number that you measure can help you decide what to do next.

Thridgen60

iTrader: (2)

When i did mine, i pulled a couple main caps to check bearings. I also had the heads off so i took one piston and rod out and installed the arp rod bolts in the vise. I then used a mic to check for out of round, absolutely no out of round so just threw them in, and that was 10K miles ago with lots of abuse

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Jim...i did not. However, it wasnt a slight kachunk kachunk type of movement. It was quite visible. A good deal more than the .007" that I keep seeing. I realize that measurement is with a new bearing...but I dont know what acceptable wear is on it.

I decided to take the whole day off on Friday. Gonna get up early, tear it down, and HOPEFULLY pull the heads off my LS1. My reason for doing that is...I can start to clean them up and figure out exactly what I have. I want to CC the chambers and see what valves they are etc. Ill check out and measure my crank in the 6.0 and see what the bearings look like. Should give me my answers without guessing anymore haha. I get too excited too quick...

I want to know my head specs because depending how much I make from the spare parts, and how much I get for my Jeep that Im selling, I MIGHT go with a different cam set up. So I want to have all the specs to give to whoever specs me a cam.

Thridgen60: Thats what I like to hear on the rod bolts... I think Im going to just re-use the ARPs that are in my LS1. I THINK its not a problem to reuse them. As far as I know, they were only torqued once. Again...just another thing Ill see what I dig into it.

Updates Friday!

J.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I want to say that stock spec for a new motor can be up to .010 or .012, and I'm sure that on a used motorbthe expectation is that it could be higher. Put a dial on it and see what it is. Tonight when I go out to the garage I'll try to remember to check my book for the spec.

cam-

This^ is a good plan. It'll probably be fine man but I wouldnt hesitate to swap the rod bolts over from your old engine. The ARP's are re-usable and if your on a budget why not use em? They're better than whats in there thats for sure.

New oil pump and LS2 timing chain ftw. Or spend a "tad" bit more on the chain and buy the IWIS from Scoggin Dickey ( not Katech its a different and MUCH more costly chain )

Happy wrenchin

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Cool thanks! Im gonna reuse them.

As for the oil pump and timing set... I have a Cloyes adjustable timing set, which I figured was good. And the pump on my LS1 is a ported pump. None of the parts have over 15k miles..probably less. So I should be ok. Im just going to swap them over.

I wanted to do this Wednesday...but I remembered I have a work function I cant miss that day. Dang it... So friday it is. 48 degree weather will have to do haha.

J.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I checked my book last night. GM calls out a .0078" max for endplay on a new build.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Yup...thats what the manual that was posted here says too. So that is considered the range for a new build? Is there anything listed for a service limit that you know of? Like...is there a MAX you should avoid? There is a service limit for the crank thrust wall width. I know this all goes back to checking the actual bearing. I mean if there is hardly anything left to the thrust area...obviously its close to the limit haha. Im starting to think it might just be normal for a broken in, used motor.

J.

camaro1185

I will be watching this one. I have followed all your builds!

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

My honest opinion is that if the motor was running ok in the previous installation, then the endplay isn't bad enough to impact the crank sensor's ability to read the reluctor wheel.

That said, I'd still measure it. If it's a lot more than .008", I'd probably pull the one cap with the thrust bearing just to have a look at that half of the bearing. If you don't see copper, put it back and run it.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

If I KNEW for sure it was out of a good running truck, Ide be on board with just tossin her in. But Im just going by what the seller told me. And he wasnt the one that pulled it. He sounded really confident that it was out of a good truck. Truck was rear ended...so it was on the road at least haha. I just hate taking peoples word. If the deal wasnt as good, and I didnt get so much extra crap...I would have been more skeptical I guess.

Im almost sure its more than .008. But Im gonna measure. 80k miles for an 02 isnt that bad. Its low mile/year.

Haha it'd be awesome if it was fine. If this weather keeps feeling more like October than Feburary...I might get it done BEFORE spring comes around.

J.

86White_T/A305

Ghetto..your car has inspired many others to do ls swaps myself included.Still watch those videos now and then on youtube open header . I just picked up an lq4 aswell because of my ls1 having extreme blowby and oil in the intake.My motor is supposedly 39,000km but inside looks like new.Im thinking of just doing ls intake..maybe 228r cam and new springs..call it a day.These motors take alot more abuse than its ls1 cousin.My budget doesnt cover doing much for upgrades at all.When i got more funds available Ill do the bottom end..rods,pistons,arp bolts and some head work with ported tb and that should well exceed my 400rwhp goal.

UnstableAviator

Glad to see you back working on the car, you've definately inspired a lot of people here with your overall sensible and solid work. Like the y-pipe I duplicated from your build threads. Good luck and stay on budget...a running, driving car is more fun than one on blocks! Especially with summer approaching.

As far as costs...mine got out of hand too...but I managed to keep the LS1 100% stock for now. I hope for AI 243's and a custom AI or EPS cam next winter. And maybe a Fast 102/92 combo.

coptzer

iTrader: (2)

There is a Miata build on LS1tech in which the guy did this:



Not bad looking, just throwing some ideas out there. He coated the valve covers and the timing cover with VHT Wrinkle paint, unless you really want a shiny smooth surface. Good luck with all the fun decisions!

V6canvas

iTrader: (1)

Looks like another good build. I'm thinking of pulling the heads (well, valve covers) on mine and seeing if the pushrods are all straight.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Well everyone...the bad luck bug bit I think.

One thing is for sure. Im glad I didnt just put the motor in.

How does .057" end play sound? Here are some pictures to illustrate the problem...

How the thrust bearing should look on both sides.


How it looks on the rear surface...


Annnnnd the resulting destruction on the cranks thrust surface...


Make no mistake, the groove in the crank is DEEP. It has the thrust surface worn down almost to the same level as the rest of that area.

Sooooo... Im kinda stuck. I have two options as far as Im concerned...figured Ide see what you all think.

Option 1) Find a used LQ4 crank that is in good shape, replace the main/rod bearings like I was kind of thinking of doing anyway.

Option 2) Jump ship. Sell everything I have that I just got, which is a lot. Re-coup most, if not all, of my money. Start with a fresh motor. I just found a couple others for REALLY good prices with far less miles. But Ide have to get a quick sell on all the junk I have now.

I was really optimistic when I started. I took a bunch of pics, but Im not going to fill the thread of with pics of something I might not use. Here is what the tops of the pistons looked like after a light cleaning though.



Bores all looked good. Still see cross hatch marks in them. Pretty faint though. But no gouges or anything to worry about. Even the heads look pretty good.

Just that darn bearing. No clue how that happened. THe front side of the thrust bearing had almost zero wear...so this must have been going on for quite some time. Im almost sure that Im the only person to be into the bottom end. Also pretty sure the heads have never been off...

If I get another motor, Im thinking about having the mods delete this thread if possible haha. Start over without all this end play nonsense.



J.

camaro1185

For me, and the biggest reason I have not pulled my good running l98 for a LSx yet is for what you have just shown. After spending in most cases 3-5K for a ls drivetrain doing all the work to get it in and working properly only to find out the thrust bearing is bad and the crank has scoring and possibly more. You then have to pull it, have things machined and rebuild. At that point, you could have bought a crate LS1 and know everything is good. So I guess what im saying is, Id rather spend a little more money at the start for a brand new motor, or buy a known good motor with some type of warranty. So Option 2 for me.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Forgot an option 3...

GO with an reconditioned crank kit. I can get a reconditioned, polished crank, with matching rod and main bearings for $255.

IF I can use an LS1 crank, that kit is only $222...not sure why its cheaper.

Point is, it'll be a good crank, with matching bearings, and since Im already buying bearings at this point, its not that outrageous.

camaro: I hear what you are saying. This is the first time Ive seen a thrust bearing issue in a GenIII motor though. At least this bad. I already have the LS swap done and finished. Im not into this pile of stuff for that much...and I dont think replacing the crank with a used stocker, or a reconditioned one would require any machine work at this point. Block and mains seem good.

J.

dprest68

iTrader: (1)

If it were me, I'd find a good crank and go with option one since everything else looks good. There is always a possiblility to get into problems with another engine. I'm sure the chances are pretty slim though. It makes me wonder how that bearing got so worn. That's pretty crazy.

Yeah, option 3 sounds good too. I guess we were typing at the same time.

6SIX6

iTrader: (35)

Id go for option 3 and I wouldnt give up as they parts are there for you. You could sell it all off and get another one and end up with the same thing again. I say fix what you got as at least you know whats been done after and have piece of mind. Thats just mu 2cents tho

camaro1185

Belive me, I know you already have the ls done, i have followed both builds and soon to be build 3. I was just saying how I think things out. I just hate the idea of buying parts with the condition unknown. WIth that said, id probably change my mind to Option 3 now.

Didnt you have a 6L in your 2nd build, hows that crank?

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Nah my second build got the LS1 from the first build haha. Ive just been recyling parts for years now.

Dont let my experience scare ya. These motors are usually pretty tough...and not usually like this. I dont know if the seller put one over on me...or if he really didnt know it had issues. Who knows there. Im not going to bust his stones over it. It was my fault for not yanking on the pulley to see what it felt like.

I think I might nab the LS1 crank kit. It doesnt mention it coming with a new reluctor wheel. Im going to call the company and ask. I can always return it if it isnt right.

J.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The LQ4 and LS1 use the same crank, but will be balanced differently. Not sure why the LS1 would cost less, other than a difference in demand.

By any chance did this engine come out of a truck with a manual transmission?