cycleguy04

Got my Camaro from a coworker of my wife to supplement my need for a vehicle while my '79 Big Ten was puking tranny fluid. The Camaro, unfortunately, had a myriad of its own problems. First of all was the state of the engine. It had a Q-Jet from a 400 SB with a 350 block from a '72 Corvette. The radiator was held to the upper support with a twisted up coat hanger, the air dam underneath the car had a big tear down the middle, what was left of the upper fan shroud certainly couldn't have been doing much without its lower brother.

Got most of that squared away.

New parts:

-Edelbrock 600CFM carb, manual choke
-junkyard electric fan and switch (replaces shroud)
-new radiator, water pump, heater core, thermostat, and hoses
-new power steering pump and lines

Not all of these have been installed yet, but just replacing the carb and cooling system made a vast improvement. It was at that point I began have issues with the transmission slipping. Could not figure it out for the life of me. Then one day while poking around in the engine bay I found the TV cable dangling out in space. Hooked it up, problem solved. It ran great for months.

I pondered what direction I would go with the my build. The decision on which wheels and tires I would replace my old worn out set for would pretty much set a path. Either a set of used Corvette wheels and rubber or old school wagon wheels like on Mad Max. In the end i went with the old school look.

That is the theme that I started with and that is the direction I'm going. Everything is going to be mechanical or manual in the absolute cheapest configuration possible, with priority #1 being getting power to the pavement. Not necessarily power itself, but making what I have HOOK LIKE A MOTHER!

Despite this, my pitted Z28 hood had to go. It looked hideous (and I couldn't close it with my new carb and adapter plate). So to maintain the rebel/mad max look I got a 4" cowl hood. Not exactly cheap, but certainly cranks up the old school appeal on this car. Looks incredible! And I can hear the induction noise a lot more, which I LOVE!

Well, the Camaro sat for several months. Just didn't have the chance to drive it. I replaced my '79 Big Ten with a '90 Sierra and had to do some work on it to get rid of a serpentine belt squeal. It was down for about a week and during that time I began driving the Camaro again. The first day I started it, the transmission took a while to pop into gear and was slipping like nothing else when it did. I checked the fluid level and it was bone dry. Weird because there was no puddle under the car giving me any indication that there was a bad leak. I filled the fluid and it helped, but I had already done the damage and by the end of the week the tranny was done. There is no saving it.

Fortunately for me I found a functioning TH400 on craigslist for $150. With a few modifications I could make it a self sufficient unit without any hoses or cables, which goes along with my simplistic theme.

The Camaro sat in my garage for a while until last weekend when I finally got around to pulling the engine and tranny.

I learned a few things about the engine. It's an 010 block with 487x heads equipped with Manley 1.5 roller rockers with rollers at the pivot points and over the valves.

Tonight I will get the timing cover off and see if I can get a model number off the cam. I was told it is a slightly better than stock aftermarket unit.

I will search for pictures and try to get them up tomorrow.

One oddity I found is the size of the balancer. it's smaller than the typical balancer and I'm wondering if it is the source of a rhythmic shudder the car has at idle. I will definitely get pictures up of that.

cycleguy04

The day I got it.



After wheels, tires, and hood installed. Never mind the oil spot on the driveway. That was from my C10. That's my new truck parked behind the Camaro.



My C10. I really wanted to keep that truck, but my wife hated it.



Engine out.



Is this an internally balanced crank? Both the flywheel and harmonic balancer, to me, seem smaller than they should be.

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

This thing is badass. I want a 82-84 Z28 so bad.

cycleguy04

Apparently the suspension was stiffer in these years and the Z28 was pretty low to the ground. When the car is on the ground I can can get an arm under it, but that's about it. Forget about looking at what your doing. You have to lift it to do any serious work and, in fact, to change the oil I put it up on ramps, but the car is so low the bumper would scrub before it gets on top of them. So I jack it up and lower it onto the ramps. Even the floor jack barely fits.

I went to the junkyard today and got some brackets to convert the v-belts to a serpentine. I like them because they're self adjusting which eliminates some maintenance. There were three bolt holes in the passenger side head to fit the alternator bracket in the donor truck, I'm not certain that my 487 heads have them. Hopefully they do or I'll be returning these brackets. I didn't have a pulley puller to take the power steering pump pulley off to get to one of the driver side bracket bolts, so I have to go back tomorrow anyway (if this set will work with my heads).

Last night I was going to pull the harmonic balancer so I can get a look at the end of cam to see what it is, but I realized the harmonic balancer puller set is about the only one I don't have from Harbor Freight. So I'll be taking a trip there in the near future too.

I'm considering pulling the heads to get a piston to deck measurement. What I'm afraid of is having to resurface the block and the heads before I put them back on. Am I being paranoid or is this a likely scenario?

cycleguy04

Well the front two rods move enough side to side that they hit the counterweights on the crank and do so with an audible clank. I just collaborated with a friend and he's thinking that is the source of the knock I was hearing at idle. I was hoping it was a rocker arm hitting the valve cover, but I don't see any marks on the inside of the valve cover or the on any of the rockers. He suggested a re-ring kit with new rod bearings. I need to do some more research, figure out how much I actually want to spend on the car, and come up with a plan. At any route, it looks like I'm in for a complete tear down.

cycleguy04

The brackets I got to convert to serpentine won't work. The alternator bracket bolts to the passenger side head with three bolts and my passenger side head has one bolt hole. Either I would have to drill and tap holes in the head or get new heads.

1o80b

Stiffer 82-84 Camaros ? never heard of.

Low, this is not low sorry

cycleguy04

Guess I'm an idiot and have no idea what I'm talking about then. Maybe you should stop reading my thread.

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

He's not wrong, the third gen Camaro in general isn't low to the ground, you probably have sagging springs.

cycleguy04

Whether a car is low to the ground or not is a matter of opinion, but if I'm not mistaken, the Z28's were lower from the factory.

cycleguy04

No markings on the end of the camshaft to figure out a make and model. I was told by the previous owner that it is aftermarket. So I pulled it out along with the heads, rockers, push rods and lifters. I will take measurements of the lobes to get an idea of lift and duration and go from there. One thing I noticed is that the fuel pump lobe has a huge lip where pump wasn't contacting. Is that normal?

I returned those brackets to convert to serpentine. Still need to figure out if I'm keeping these heads.

cycleguy04

After more inspection I have found that the block is .040 over and has a cast crank. There is something funky going on in cylinder #2. Looks like dried out fuel stuck to the cylinder wall, but the piston looks normal like the others. Black. I can't figure this out. If it is dried fuel that cylinder could not have been firing, yet the top of the piston is black.

I am at a crossroads right now. 1) Put this engine back together with new bearings and run it for a while, 2) find a roller block and either use my heads or buy new ones, 3) say screw it and part it all out, or 4) go LM7.

1o80b

Opinion ?

I don't think mesurement is an opinion.




For you cylinder #2 this is not a good thing.... post picture.

cycleguy04

I will try and get a good picture of the cylinder. The lighting in my garage is bad.

cycleguy04

I realized it's cylinder #1 not 2. Anyway, I cleaned it out and got a better look. There is a lot of rust and pitting, and where the pitting changes color there is a substantial ripple. Some s*** definitely went down in this cylinder at one point in it's life.


The block being .040 over already, I'd probably get more money selling it to the scrap yard than anybody else. I'm definitely not going to use it.

cycleguy04

I still think my car is low. My OPINION hasn't changed even though other Camaros may be lower. It is low to me. That is what I was getting at.

RedLeader289

iTrader: (2)

Have you put new shocks/struts in it? That did wonders for my car (83 Z28).

I have enough room to reach under and take the oil filter off, etc. Of course, I'm also running a 28" rear tire so that definitely helps lol.

cycleguy04

I did recently buy some new tires and the rears are about 28" if I'm not mistaken. Haven't taken a roll out measurement yet. I bought some rear springs from Summit a while back and they sent front springs, go figure, but I'm going to replace those anyway, so I kept them. Haven't ordered the rears yet, but I will soon.

While I'm on the lookout for a new block I have been doing some research on valve train stress. Basically higher ratio rockers vs. higher cam lift.

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=30518

I found this thread on another forum, but the replies seem to be a 50/50 split. I'd like to hear some thoughts from the third gen community on this.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

It looks a LOT like the crack I had in one of my cylinder bores in an old .060 over block I had back in the day. Milkshaked all over my new parts after the camshaft break in. It was fine before that, fine at the machine shop, after I took it around the block the first time, though, the bore developed a crack and dirtied up everything. That block is long gone.

The clear liquid you see is a bunch of wd40 I sprayed all over everything to try to prevent rust before I got it apart. I didnt know what was salvageable and what wasnt yet. I was also young and stupid. Note the bore wtih the crack has this horrendous muddy sludge in it.







Anyway, I'd imagine it just got full of water, whether from an internal issue, or from water running into it while it sat is really irrelevant. I imagine it's PROBABLY more likely that water ran into it from exposure to the elements looking at how rusty the deck is where the head gasket wasnt covering it.

If you look at literature and photography from the era you'll see most of them really did sit pretty high. The springs were always "computer selected" and IROCs and berlinettas and sport coupes could get any number of springs. The "computer" would, I presume, estimate weight balance and suspension package and pick springs to best approximate what it should get, but I dont even think every z28 was the same ride height. Even similarly optioned ones could sit a little different. There's such a huge range of spring combinations and curb weights it's almost impossible to really nail down whether z28s or IROCs or whatever were actually any lower to the ground or not. Especially no easy way to tell for sure today. I know it was "Claimed" that IROCs were a "half inch" lower at some point, but I dont know that I can really believe that since they used a lot of the same spring packages.

cycleguy04

Thanks for clearing that up. Fact is I can't reach the drain plug without raising the front of the car and I can't drive up onto a typical ramp before it scrapes. Maybe new springs will fix it. Didn't expect to get attacked for such a moot comment. Lighten up guys!

The engine held coolant pretty well, so I don't think the sleeve is cracked. Actually, it ran surprisingly well for the amount of damage in the bore, but it did have a rhythmic shudder at idle. A little faster than once per second, which I thought was due to bad transmission/engine mounts. Looks more like the rings on that piston were running past the low spot on the cylinder wall and catching. I can definitely tell water was sitting in the cylinder now, based on you pictures.

cycleguy04

Is a posi 10 bolt from an '84 Camaro worth $250? I saw one on craigslist and figured it would be cheap added traction until I get a larger diff built.

cycleguy04

I'm looking at an LM7 that has 214,000 miles. They are asking $690. If I'm going to get eveything machined anyway, should I even worry about the miles?

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

84...

It has 26 spline axles, so you'll probably want to replace those if you ever replace the posi, since everyone moved to 28 spline axles in 89. 9 bolts always got 28 spline axles but nothing interchanges so ignore those.

It will have either the crappy delco moraine iron disc brakes, or drums... both of which are garbage but will functionally stop the car. But if you want something nice, you'll end up replacing those. if you are planning to upgrade to a different diff, then this is a moot point,a lthough a new diff will need brakes too. I would recommend deferring a brake upgrade until you get your new diff.

The posi, if it has one, is an auburn cone style posi, which kind of blows. It's probably worn out but it may be okay. 28 spline axles wont fit into that one, and if you upgrade to a newer posi, you'll need to upgrade to 28 spline axles.

So is it a good gear ratio? That's the only reason I'd get it at this point. If the ratio is what you want, then just bolt it up and roll.

cycleguy04

Cone style posi? The only limited slip I've played with is a Ford 8.8". It had a bunch of steel and fiber discs sandwiched together with an S shaped spring in the middle. How does a cone style posi work?

cycleguy04

To update, I have an 010 4-bolt block that I got from a friend along with a forged crank and forged TRW pistons. It's at the machine shop now getting bored .060 over to fit the pistons. I've been at the junkyard quite a bit the last few days. I got roller lifters from a 3100 V6 and a spider retainer from a Vortec engine. I'm going to go through all the lifters, clean them , and choose the best ones to use. I have fourteen extra. I've seen some dogbones online that are all linked together so they are one piece for each bank. I'll order those and I should be set for my roller lifter conversion.

I have a cam button, but I've heard online that drilling and tapping the block for a retainer like on the late model blocks is recommended. Any thoughts on this?

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

A cone splined to an axle shaft sits in a basket that is attached to the ring gear.



They work well enough, IMO, but if its from 84 it's most likely worn down pretty bad.See the axle shaft is splined into those cones, so in order for the spider gears to work and allow each axle to turn independently, it has the overcome the friction of the cones against the case - thus you have limited slip.


As the cones wear they move away from the central pinion gears, opening up the backlash there causing pinion/spider gear failure in time and until then they dont raelly lock up anymore. If you look closely in the picture you can see where the cone would wear and move away from the center as it wears. As they wear all the way down, eventually they will bottom out on the outer "floor" of the case, and be smaller in diameter than the case they ride in. So no more posi.

cycleguy04

I am at the stage of my build where I decide if I want to keep my 487x heads or go with a new aluminum set.

I have a couple of questions:

1) How much compression can/should I get with flat top pistons and a zeroed deck height with these 75cc heads?

2) How much total valve lift can these heads handle?

I would really like about a .600 lift, but I know this may be a pipe dream. How CLOSE can I get?

1o80b

inbe4 thiscarwillneverrun

cycleguy04

This is the setup I'm thinking of using:

487x heads with 3/8" threaded stud, guide plates and roller rockers
010 4 bolt block, .060 over, zeroed piston to deck height
5.7" h-beam rods
TRW forged flattop pistons
forged crank
LT4 hot cam
3100 V6 roller lifters and Vortec 350 retainers
Performer intake
Edlebrock 600
.035 compressed head gasket

Any opinions?

skinny z

All in all your combination sounds very workable.
There are more than a few members here with almost identical builds.
Witha 76cc head and a .035" w/ 5cc valve reliefs your SCR will be about 9.3:1. That'll work ok with a relatively short cam like the LT4.
Just my observations.

cycleguy04

Thanks for the advice. I will take all of that into consideration.

Another addition that I didn't mention is a 6AL ignition box. I'd be able to limit RPM to accommodate the 3100 lifters, but I don't like the idea of limiting RPM just for lifters. I will check into some new lifters. Some of the reasons I got them is the oil grooves are in the correct location for gen 1 oil galleys and they are the same length as a flat tappet, which make them an easy, inexpensive swap.

I'm still looking at new heads. They would give me a huge power gain, but, man, they are pricey.

To help me limit my search, what is the upper limit on intake runner size for a street/strip engine. I have a 600cfm carb and Performer intake, but can upgrade.

cycleguy04

I am having trouble finding any information on 3100 lifters, let alone why they would be a bad choice.

But I thought about their limitations to RPM that skinny z mentioned. Couldn't that be overcome by a higher oil pressure? I read somewhere that is what LS guys are doing in their engines to improve their roller lifter performance.

skinny z

It's not the 3100 lifters per se, but all the OEM roller lifters that went into the Gen 1 small blocks when they were introduced. It's not a question of oil pressure but rather the composition of the lifter body itself. They were castings and at high speed, the body would distort. The result was a loss of pressure to the hydraulic assembly and the collapse of lifter mechanism. This would manifest itself after a high rpm pass as a noisy valvetrain. After a minute or so, everything would return to normal. High rpm (for us) is sustained 6000+. We'd shift at 7000 and hit the stripe at 6500 or so.
David Vizard has an article about it in his budget small block Chevy book (2nd edition) and we've experienced it firsthand in one of our higher rpm SBCs.
The better lifters (like a Morel or Comps short travel model) are billet bodies and don't suffer from this distortion.
I know of more than one racer who went through the valve train from top to bottom trying to find why power was dropping off at the top end. Most point to a valve spring issue but once all of the other variables were eliminated, the lifter was the culprit.

cycleguy04

It is my understanding that the size of the intake ports on a set of heads will determine how much not only the amount of air the engine is CAPABLE of taking in, but how much air it will NEED to idle. If I go with a larger intake port in a head will the idle and intake vacuum diminish?

What is considered to be the upper limit of intake port size on a street/strip car?

skinny z

Your upper limit on a street/strip engine is dependent on your definition of a street/strip engine. You can make well over 400 chp with a 180cc head. There are people here that have "streetable" combinations with runners volumes in excess of 230cc.
It's a safe bet that a really large intake port will diminish idle vacuum. That said, with a well tuned combination that has good compression pressure and the right amount of ignition timing will result in a quality idle regardless of the port volume.

cycleguy04

My first kid is going to be born in 3 months and I'm feeling the squeeze right now. Money is tight and I have a lot to do before she comes. I did manage to finally pick up my block from the machine shop. Here's what they did:

-Hot tanked
-New freeze plugs
-Bored .058 over and match honed cylinders to pistons
-Pressed wrist pins in with a used set of Scat rods ($80 for those)
-Polished crank
-New cam bearings

Total bill was $600. Since money is tight I decided I'm going to build the engine with the cam that was in the car. It is pretty mild, but the engine was powerful enough when it ran. I'm also going to reuse the 600cfm Edelbrock and Performer intake.

Couple of things I might have the machine shop do before I assemble are line hone the mains and have the heads cleaned and inspected for cracks. To save money I might do a valve lap and stem replacement myself. Figure I might as well do them while the heads are off.

I can still see cross hatching on the mains. Should I even worry about getting them honed?