MM2Robinson

OK, so I've seen a few threads with the same issue, but they were either fuel related, or unanswered.

I have an 89 Firebird Formula 305
I have fuel, pressure is fine, and it cranks perfectly but I have no spark.
I replaced the Ignition Coil, Cap, Rotor, Ignition Control Module, Wires, Plugs, and Pickup assembly and still have no Spark.
Wires at starter are good. Battery cables are good. Grounds are good.
Fuse under dash is fine.
I'm assuming that since it's cranking, then it's not the neutral safety switch, otherwise it wouldn't even crank.
When I put the new ICM in, it ran great for about an hour and now it's having the same issues. I had the ICM tested repeatedly and it's still fine, so I know I didn't blow it.
I have a new distributor sitting on my passenger seat if needed, but why would it run fine with no issues and all of a sudden have the same problems.

Some of the other posts asked about voltage at the coil and the ICM so I'm checking those in a few. Though I don't know what that's going to tell me.

I'm at a loss, and don't know what to do next. Any help would be spectacular.

Thank you in advance!

Jake

MM2Robinson

UPDATE:
I went through, traced all wiring thinking I had a short somewhere and everything looks good. Took my ICM to the shop and they said it tested bad (which was why I checked my wiring) but come to find out, the testing computer they had that checked my ICM's was malfunctioning. So went ahead and swapped distributors, put a performance ICM in and she fired right up.

I'm sorry to waste anyone's time. Thanks!

MM2Robinson

2nd UPDATE:

So it drove great for 2 days... I took it to town for errands, and it stalled out on me.

Semi-Fortunately, I was up the hill from a Chevy/GMC dealer and rolled it down the hill and got it in a spot right outside their service department. I now have the same problem AGAIN... I have power to the coil, but no spark at the plugs.

I'm done chasing the gremlins for now, so I'm hoping that the service department finds my short/ground that I was unable to find. So I'm going to just wait and see.

MM2Robinson

So I have spark now, but it still won't start. The service department said that my coolant temperature sensor is shot and to change that?
Does that make any sense to anyone as to why it won't start? They said that it helps control the air/fuel and that's what they think is making it not start for me.....


Could it be my MAF sensor?


I'm still lost about this. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks

MM2Robinson

So the CTS has been replaced. Then I got a code 34 - Low Voltage, High Vacuum.

I cleaned out the MAF with actual MAF cleaner, didn't work.
Swapped out the MAF, didn't work.

unplugged the MAF and tried to start it, just to see what happens and then threw code 33 - High Voltage, Low Vacuum.

I went to the parts store, and they pulled a MAP sensor that is "for my car" but.... Don't have one in my car, so I now have to go through all of my vacuum lines.

I don't know what to do next, but I'm gonna replace all the lines.
If that doesn't work PCV and CCV,
If that doesn't work, EGR Solenoid and Valve...

I don't think anyone is actually reading these, but I'm still hoping for any pointers. I'm losing faith in this forum.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

Don't give up hope, I'm sure this will get resolved. Let's start from the beginning. No spark so you change the ICM and it runs for a couple days.
Died again so you take it to the service shop. What did they do to get it running or is it not running yet? CTS does affect fueling but should at least sputter or hard start. Are your injectors firing? Sounds like a problem between the distributor and the ECM. The ECM needs to see the engine turning over or running via the ICM. If you are still getting spark, try spraying some starter fluid into the throttle body and see what it does. If it fires then you know you have a fueling problem. First, check your fuel pressure then see if your injectors are being pulsed. Basics need to be covered first before you jump into the harder troubleshooting areas. Let us know what you find. GL!

MM2Robinson

The dealership service department didn't do anything aside from run the code and tell me what I already knew. Plus they wanted an extra 250 bucks to change a 20 dollar part that took me 5 minutes to replace.
After I cleared that, was when I got the original code 34. (low voltage high vacuum)
So I cleaned the MAF (didn't work)
Then Swapped the MAF for a reman (didn't work so took it back)


I have good fuel pressure and firing. It does start and run ok at first for a minute or so then runs really rough (makes the whole car shake with low idle). it runs better when I turn everything on (AC, lights, windows, brakes) but still same problem. disconnected the MAF and then it threw code 33. It's still sitting in the service department parking lot, so I went ahead and asked them to do a vacuum test which they are getting done today. I'm waiting to find out what they say.


When it dies, I have to use starter fluid to get it started again, but it always runs really rough. So fuel and spark are ok, my fuel air ratio is what's messed up right now, which is what I'm battling.

antares57

iTrader: (8)

Do you have a TBI (vin E) or TPI (vin F)?

MM2Robinson

TPI

antares57

iTrader: (8)

Sorry, don't have much experience in those. The following came out of an '88 Firebird service manual. Should pertain to your '89 as well. Hope they help, good luck.

antares57

iTrader: (8)

This one too.

MM2Robinson

Thank you very much! Ill check those out.

So another update: the dealership did the vacuum test (smoke test) and said exactly this "you have smoke coming from every oriface of your throttle body"

Weird that it ran fine before, but now this is causing my car to not run? Im still gonna go through it and check out everything else.

Ill check out the drawings, but any other input is still awesome.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

You should maybe get an ALDL cable and a laptop, download a copy of TunerPro or Winaldl and get some log files or at least get a look at what your A/F ratio and what your BLM and Integrator are doing. You say it runs ok for a minute or two then runs real ruff. That sounds like it acts up when it goes into closed loop. You can get a cable pretty cheap or make one for a few dollars. The software is free and all the info you need is in the tuning sticky. Should probably read the sticky just to familiarize yourself with your TPI system. Just my

alex722607

iTrader: (3)

TPI's are funny like that when something is outa whack. First off- do the following:
Check the distributor (pull the cover and all)
Check the spark plug wires
Check the electrical connectors at the distributor and ICM because perhaps one or more may be broken or missing a tang and the engine vibrations shake it loose.
You may very well have a faulty computer or even a bad chip in the computer.
Check all grounds at the back of the cylinder heads... 20+ years in an engine bay attached to cylinder heads is gonna do some strange things to connectors and wires alike.
If all else fails then you might wanna pull the tank and look at the fuel pump and/or fuel lines. If she starts back up on starter fluid then something maybe lodged in your fuel lines or perhaps one of them may be clogged partially.

MM2Robinson

So when I talked to the actual mechanic that did the vacuum test, he said that my vacuum lines are all fine. Don't look fine, but aren't leaking. When he booted the intake of the throttle body, that was when all that started leaking. And he also said it was leaking from the TPS, and somewhere right underneath the back side of throttle body? So I'm thinking an Idle sensor valve or something like that?

So I'm going to replace those and the PCV and CCV and the little plastic looking vacuum lines going to the EGR solenoid to see if that can be a more immediate fix so I can possibly get the darn thing home to really start working on it. After those though, the cheaper options have all been replaced.

Also, I'm going to disconnect the tank, backflush the fuel lines in case something is in there, and try to omit the tank being the issue. I know the tank has some rust, so it has got to be changed out eventually, but I still don't believe that it's the reason why it's not running anymore, since it's intermittent.

I'll go through the manual pages that antares57 sent to test everything to check the ECM and everything and maybe I'll be able to find something there.

And if everything is good there, then I'll try the cable idea from bigal55 and give that a shot.

Does anything in the first 2 paragraphs make sense? could these be the problem? I'm going to go up there today and get the parts for that, but I think I'm just at the point of replacing anything I can get my hands on. It's getting awfully expensive to just be replacing everything though in "hopes" that it may make her work again.... I don't know, it's frustrating but I had it coming for making her sit for so long without any attention.

MM2Robinson

Is this the cable I need? It doesn't have very many points... bigal55

MM2Robinson

So I fired it up in the parking lot at the dealership, and she ran beautifully.... for about 5 minutes. which is what it's been doing if it's started completely cold and untouched for a day or so. Got her on the trailer and home and did a few things to test some stuff out.


Tried the whole air diverter eliminator trick, since that's really easy and worth a shot but got the O2 sensor lean code....


So I said screw it, put everything back the way it was, disconnected the battery and did the 5 minute computer clear with the cables...


Now it still runs just as crappy as before with the really rough idle. And when it dies the SES light comes on.


But now ONLY 12 BLINKS.... No other code, tried it a few more times, still the same thing... the SES light is on, but it's not bringing up anything when I ground the ALDL, just 12 over and over again.

So I'm going to try the troubleshooting pages listed above, and possibly get the ALDL cable and download the software, but I'm just tossed again... Back to square 1 with chasing the damn gremlins in this thing.

What now?!?!?!?!

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

The codes were cleared when you disconnected the battery so there won't be any stored codes. Your blinking 12 just means the ECU is functioning and ready to flash any stored codes. Seeing as you cleared the codes, the ECU will just continue to flash the 12 over and over. The ECU needs to see "cycles" of various running conditions in order to throw a code if something is mal-functioning. Get a cable, the software and do some data logging. Post your log here and someone will be able to diagnose the logs and tell you what to look at. GL!

MM2Robinson

So, the cable that I have a picture of in the thread ^ is that the right one? I'm going to order it online, probably tomorrow. I had to wait until I got paid again to continue diagnosis. Once I get the cable, I'll post the results and we'll go from there.

Thanks to everyone that's keeping up on this with me!

foxxtrot82

try checking the resistance of the injectors. the Haynes manual reads 11.0 to 14.0. my car ran crappy and got to the point it wouldn't even run. it would get spark. replaced many different thing to find the problem. it wound up being the injectors.

Thirim

I read somewhere in the thread that you threw a distributor at it? ... Check your timing.

Thirim

any higher resolution pics of the engine bay? .. Kinda helps with the visual. We're all picturing a mint new TPI motor, or a completely worn out one.. Might pick up something in a pic

MM2Robinson

I'll get some pics up here soon, maybe even a video.


So after I cleared everything and no longer had any codes, I let I sit for a couple days. I went out to start it today and let her run till it quit and when it died it threw a code again. Code 44: O2 lean but it's running rich because when it's running and I tap the gas it instantly dies. So I'm going to change the o2 sensor and see what happens. I know that if it 'detects' a lean condition, it will throw more fuel at it to fix the ratio, it's just weird that I just now got this O2 code...... I'm gonna run out and do that really quick and update when I'm done.

MM2Robinson

So, new O2 sensor is installed but still... I've still got the same issue. antares57, will you send me a link to the rest of the manual? I have the pages you sent me, but that was around the same time that we were figuring out my 34/33 issue.


I'm not getting a code anymore, but still get an SES light when it dies. The only cable I found was like 60 bucks. Is that right?? Also, it was mentioned that I can make one for a few bucks, how do I go about doing that.


If I had the rest of the manual, there is a section that covers:
Rough, Unstable, or Incorrect Idle, Stalling
But I don't have the rest of the manual to look at that.


I do sort of have a retarded computer, so it doesn't display the pages correctly so it could be on my end why I can't find the stickys that have the manual/troubleshooting pages and/or tuning info... Thanks

Thirim

if you're doubting the computer, pull a plug and see how it's burning/
You can have lean and tramp on the gas to stall it. fuel pressure would do this.. lack of fuel and now more air..

L98GTA87

iTrader: (1)

I had this same exact problem a few days ago. I'd be driving and engine would just die. Started back up but eventually it didn't wanna start anymore. I previously put in a used distributor and turns out that was the problem. Swapped it out and all was well.

This is the cable you want. http://www.reddevilriver.com/site/mo...aldl.html#2625 Comes with everything you need. GM 12 pin. I have the exact one and have been using it for years just fine. I use TTS DataMaster. I personally like it much better than TunerPro. The first 20 logs are free.

What injectors are you running?

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

You can make a cable pretty cheap with parts from RadioShack. If you do a search for DIY ALDL cable, you will see the diagrams and parts list for various type designs, but you need to know how to solder and your computer needs a serial connection. I found an Arduino serial/ttl to usb converter on e-bay, all you need is the aldl end. I believe RadioShack sells Arduino kits and accessories so you may want to see if they have the converter. HTH!

MM2Robinson

It's not running lean. After running it, and it petering out on me, pulled the plug and it's wet.

http://www.aldlcable.com/ this is the cable I found. I know it's a little pricey, but I don't have time/patience to fabricate my own. Plus I know i'd mess it up, so this will save the headache.

the reddevilrider.com site didn't actually bring up anything, but i'll check it when i'm out of work. Gov't computers wont pull up the rest of the page, so it may be there.

I'm hoping that when I get this cable, and download the software, it's going to tell me a definitive answer on why my car runs beautifully for a few minutes, and then runs completely crappy.

I've been searching for the other pages that antares57 sent me to diagnose/troubleshoot the ECM with no luck.

MM2Robinson

So I got the cable in the mail yesterday, and tried to hook it up today with no luck. It's not communicating between the ECM and my computer, so I'm working on trying to figure that out...


It's talking about 160 or 8192 Baud and something about 2400 or 9600 Baud rate? I found where these numbers are at, but switching between the 2 still couldn't get it to work.


The cable I bought also has a 10Kohm resistor and I can switch/choose between Normal, A short to B, and 10K Resistor Between A and B...


I can't figure out which match of numbers and/or resistor pin configuration works to get data to start flowing...


More tinkering tomorrow.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

You need the 10k resistor between A_B for 160 baud which is what the 165 ECM uses (your ECM is a 165 MAF system). Did you load the drivers for the adapter and does your computer recognize the cable?

igende

I just had the same problem. I kept cranking until the battery died down and it would not start. Turns out that my battery was bad. Seems it had enough power to crank, but not enough to get it started. I charged the battery and the car started fine, but next morning same issue. I changed the battery and now it starts without issue. Other problem I still had is that it was stalling and stumbling. I've wracked my brain over this one for some time, changed cap/rotor, plugs, plug wire, and even fuel regulator. Figured it may be the ignition control module or a week fuel pump. Check engine code relates to the fuel system. On a guess and because it's cheap I changed the PCV valve ($3.29) and wala! No more hard starts, no more sudden stalls, no more stumbling, no more rough idle, and no more check engine light. Who would have thought it! Given all the threads I've read with similar issues at $3.29 it is worth giving it a shot just to see. Also mine had suction and made rattling noise which I was always told meant it was working, but after more research this just means it's not plugged, but does not mean the spring inside is actually doing it's job. In my case it was not.

myzblubyu

I know this post is a couple months old. Did you figure out the issue? A couple of years ago I had a similar experience as you. The car was owned by a friend and it was in very poor shape after sitting for a couple of years. After being robbed for a lot of money from a garage, she had me look at it. I fixed all of the garages mistakes and I finally got it to run. It would run decent for 5-10 minutes then stumble and die. I then drove it with a fuel pressure gauge hooked up and where I could monitor the pressure. After 5 minutes the fuel pressure would drop until it dies. Before she brought it to me she had a new fuel pump put in it, so I thought the fuel supply was good. It turned out the tank had so much rust and crud inside of it that after 5+ minutes of sloshing around the fuel pump sock would be covered in crud and blocked fuel from getting sucked up into the pump. I figured this out by running a color diagnostic camera down the fuel spout. Then after dropping the tank I realized the idiots cut an access hole above the fuel pump. It was sealed via duck tape! After a new tank, pump, strainer, and filter it ran like a champ.

Mr.Franco

I'm reviving this thread

I have a 92 TPI Camaro and I've replaced everything I can think of:

-2 Distributors
-3 Ignition Control Modules
-New Cap & rotor
-New coil
-New Ignition switch
-New Starter
-ECM
-Checked all fuses (including the one located towards the front of the right fender)
-Connected 12v directly to pink wire going to the back of the distributor
-Triple checked the VATS

and I still cant figure out why I don't have spark.

Thoughts???

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Continuity on the white wire from the icm to coil ?

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

With all that , and the 100% certainty that you did get a good +12 Volts connected to the pink wire , I'm left wondering this ;

Are you SURE the distributor is actually turning ???? I have seen in the past where a "no spark but replaced everything twice" situation turned out to be a broken timing chain a couple of times and a broken camshaft at least once .

PS , VATS does not in any way whatsoever disable your spark . It will stop the starter from cranking and the stop the injectors from spraying only ....

Mr.Franco

Thank you for the feedback. Can you explain the test process for continuity on the white wire?

Mr.Franco

Yes, the distributor is turning. Checked that as well :-)

Regarding VATS: that was my thought as well, but someone gave that advice....just trying to give visibility on everything I've done. Haven't checked the continuity of the white wire, so I'll try that next and let everyone know the outcome.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

use a ohm meter and check for continuity on the white wire pigtail that goes between the icm and coil.

foxxtrot82

Well I had a similar experience this past spring. Car ran great leaving drive away after warming up and stopped before top of hill. Rolled it back down in driveway. Contemplated over and over. Checking for spark over and over on different attempts. All testing checked out good. No spark still. I have an aftermarket tachometer (because the original failed). The car seems faster because of big tach. JK!!! It wound up being the pulse wire under the dash got smashed between the steering brace and cover panel. Vibrated and wiggled for over a year and eventually made enough contact to ground itself out. Unplugged the wire, car ran great. Plug it back up, car shut off. WTF. It was a buddies idea to just unhook and try. Tada! Hope this gives any ideas.

Mr.Franco

So, I tested the white wire...all check out fine. The only thing that I didn't test and assumed was ok, because it had been replaced, was the spark plug cable that went from the coil to the cap. I swapped it out with one of the old cables and "voila"! The car started.

After purchasig every part in the ignition system, that is the most expensive used coil cable I've ever bought.