BiGgE

iTrader: (2)

[quote=Fast LS1;4186680]You stated your opinion about dyno tuning and I stated my opinion about your opinion.

I am very glad that dyno tuning worked well for you. I also have no doubt that dyno tuning would work well for MCBCHILD too, I just thought I would try to throw in my thoughts just in case he doesn't have access to a dyno, or doesn't want to spend money on dyno fees. But anyways, you definitely have a moving car, so congrats on the times.

mcbchild

iTrader: (1)

So if this limits the mechanical advance, would I need to add more base timing above the 15 degrees already? My mechanical advance is full 23 degrees at around 3000 rpms.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

Flat tappets are a thing of the past. Solid roller setup is the way to go.Also dump that petronix hei for a msd setup.

izcain

There is nothing wrong with a Flat tappet cam. If it is properly picked for the combination. Plenty of fast cars still run them! Telling him to run a roller is not the answer at all.

What do all the plugs look like after your runs?

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

Agreed on the flat tappet comment. I have a smaller cam, less compression, smaller heads, smaller carb, heavier race weight than a friend's car and I was running the same times as him on the motor. He had a solid roller with almost .600 lift, 220cc heads, 850 cfm carb blah blah blah... His combo just didn't work well just like his current engine, it's off we're figuring about a half second compared to a very similar engine.

BiGgE

iTrader: (2)

That is correct. You will need more base timing to keep the total timing where it is at. I would expect this to significantly increase throttle response on your engine and hopefully help to get your short time down.

mcbchild

iTrader: (1)

All my plugs are black sooty after my runs.

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

Take away fuel till they clean up. Put some fresh ones in, make a run, pull a couple out, have a look and see what the engine wants. Friend of mine has an 850 on a 421 sbc and he's still taking fuel away, think he's below the stock jetting now.

mcbchild

iTrader: (1)

You mean go with smaller jets or smaller squirters?

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

Smaller jets and not just 1 jet size at a time, leave that for the fine tuning. Do some research on plug reading, it'll help out a lot.

rayar

iTrader: (1)

Sometimes I wonder how we got the tune up right before Dynos became a common shop tool. There is nothing a dyno can do that can't be done at the track. It's just going to take longer without a dyno.

zacharyhorn

iTrader: (1)

That is a very impressive E.T. and mph. If you don't mind me asking, what are you running for a combo?

mcbchild

iTrader: (1)

I added more timing and now down to low 12 seconds. The timing is at 38 total and the car is still a dog coming out of the hole. My 60' is still around the 1.8x and rt is around .170 to .200. Would locking out my advance solve this? My stock mechanical advance is full at 3000 rpms and 23 degrees, do I lock it out at full advance and keep my base timing to 15-16 degrees?

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

I agree with everything you said. But why use air tools? Why cook food in an oven? why drive a car and not walk. Just a lot easier to pin point issues with accurate and direct feedback. Especially for $200 bux.

Sounds like the car is getting faster now with the timing correct.

How are you leaving the line? footbrake? Trans brake? 2 step? If the converter stalls 3500, what RPM are you leaving the line? Cutting a 1.60 or better 60' should land you into the mid 11's....

mcbchild

iTrader: (1)

I am using just the footbrake and launching at around 2300 - 2600 rpm as that is all my footbrake can hold.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

If you had a trans brake you would be able to do okay with a 3500 stall street/strip converter but with footbrake it's probably the reason there's nothing going on in your 60ft. I leave on footbrake and can't launch past idle. I can't muster better than a 1.60 on a 125 MPH run.

If you go with a transbrake you will see good results. If you step up to a better converter or even a looser street/strip converter it will also help. An 8 inch converter with a 53-5500 true stall would be ideal for your footbrake application. However it will cost you $800+. If your on a budget there are companys that produce a decent converter for $350-400 or so.

Imthebriman

iTrader: (1)

I have to disagree. Everything MSD I ever buy craps out within a year. I now buy mallory and hasn't let me down.

84firebird383

I didn't see anywhere if you had removed your front swaybar.If you haven't that might help your 60' a bit.

mcbchild

iTrader: (1)

Front swaybar has been taken off some time ago, but it's not doing anything since it does not launch hard out of the hole. I am thinking that I need a higher stall like fastls1 stated, but I don't think I need that high of a stall even though I am using foot brake to launch. Maybe need something along the line of a 4500 stall converter since I only spin the engine to 6800-7000 rpms.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

If your looking at an 8 inch race converter they can stall high do to the fact that they are small and efficient. The general rule of thumb is 1500 rpm drop from the shift change with a 3 speed and 3200lbs car which would give you a 5300 stall. If you go with a 9" of some sort than 42-4500 would work well.

gtpro700

About the HEI comment. Does HEI distributors have certain limitations? I know my cousin has a mallory HEI distributor and without an MSD box it only is good up to like 5500 rpm i think. He has a pretty agressive sbc setup and he is also down on power as well for some reason (he has a msd box though). So I was wondering if it is the distributor possibly holding these motors back. Just a guess. When you take the guts out of the distibutor and hook up the MSD box it might fix it though... Any comments on this ?

mcbchild

iTrader: (1)

The shop that built my motor recommended this pertronix race unit which is good til 7500 - 8000 rpms. I've have also heard nothing but complaints about how lousy the msd units are and don't last very long.

Also did a search on hei vs msd and this is what I found:

You will probably find a min. difference in the MSD controlled ingnition verses the stock HEI. The Stock HEI works well enough on mostly stock to warmed over engines. A blue print distributer with a decent coil and wires will be a cost effective solution. Less money and the same power than going with MSD.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

you saw an improvement based on timing, so the answer is YES!!!

seriously, don't touch the jets yet!!!! by adding timing, you'll lean the combination out some. lock that sucker out and start at 36* of timing. with the kinda of camshaft/compression you have, the thing will barely run without more timing. i can't beleive no-one else has really caught this in this thread. add timing, pull a plug, see how clean it gets.

to everyone telling him to pay for a tune: why on earth would you tell someone to pay for tuning? this site has really gotten funky. when i started out here i had a 2.8v6 running low 18's. i managed to get that down to a 16.7x based on knowledge of people from here and my dad. then i put a 305 together and the car started out as 14.7 car. after doing alot of research and different combo changes and the help of people from here and my dad, the car eventually went 12.3x's! faster than the OP car with 78less cubes. there is such a huge wealth of information on this site, and it's all free!

basic tuning 101: figure out where the car wants to be as far as timing goes. read plugs and adjust fuel accordingly once optimum timing has been found. MOST traditional 23* headed sbc's like somewhere in the neighborhood of 34-40* of timing LOCKED OUT ALL THE TIME, depending on the efficiency of your heads combustion chamber. my 305 went from 12.7x's to 12.3x's by just locking out the timing, i KNOW there is more power in your combo by doing it.

lock it out, adjust and watch BIG gains...

mcbchild

iTrader: (1)

mw66nova, should I lock out the timing at full advance which is 23* on my mechanical and just set the base timing at 13* for a total of 36* all the time or give my base timing more? Also, do you think I need more stall by since I am using footbrake instead of a transbrake? And thanks for your response.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

WHOA. Were Funky? 12.30'S Huh? Well heres my story.....

I put together a budget 383 with compression in the high 10's. The cam duration is in the 240's(Hydro Flatt Tappett!), heads are under 200cc's, and carb is a off the shelf Demon turd with 750cfm. It has a ready-to-run MSD (no ig. box). It has 2.5 inch exhaust, rotted old flowmasters, a 3200 stall $350 converter and 9 inch slicks that carry dry rott from the late 1990's.

I fired the car the car once and saw the headers glowing. Cut the engine and trailered it to the dyno. Drove it home the following day running 100% with an accurate hp graph and it only costed $250.

The car starts on one crank in the dead winter and drives away after 2 minutes. It does not smoke, choke, or stumble. It runs on 93 gas and uses it VERY conservitivly. Like 20 bux last of week of driving.

The car has never printed a timeslip that didn't impress me. Never been slower than 11.30 (spinning). Never has the hood open at the track. Never really has the hood open at all in fact. Goes 11.0 off idle through full exhaust and returns home to drive me to work on Monday(if I feel like it).

I used the dyno graph to match up my new 8 inch race converter and will be an easy 10 seconed slip with new tires.

BTW, I didn't post one single tuning question, scratch my head for a minute, or waste ANY time OR money on trips to the track to recieve timeslips I didn't like.

Dyno tuning is a tool that cant understand why anyone would waste the time or energy NOT doing.

I understand people want to work on there own cars and do there own thing for pride and all, but Dyno tuning can't be looked at as a bad thing.

Big Dog Chevy

I was just checking out this thread and I have to agree with fastls1. Dyno tunning will save you a lot of time and money when it comes to dailing in or finding problems with your car. I've had many times when we found answers to problems that would have taken weeks of changing crap that we didn't need to change cause we thought that was the problem. You can waste a lot of time and money guessing. With a dyno you know if you are gaining or hurting your hp right there.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i can make as much gains making 8 passes at the track and analyzing my slips and tweeking as you can with 8 pulls at the dyno. they are BOTH analytical tools using a way of measuring as a means to represent power changes. last i checked the most expensive friday night tnt is about $25, 10% of what you paid to have someone else do your dirty work for you.

he's already made progress! he's started with upper 12's, gave it more timing, the thing went 12.5x's, added more timing and low 12's....sounds like it still needs more timing. he's using the mechanical advance for goodness sake, anyone with any tuning experience should have realized early on in this thread that that was his problem. he needs to lock it out so there is NO mechanical movement, and that timing stays rock steady at 36* throughout the rpm range.

you can talk with anyone on this board about my old 305, it was super budget build. 10.2:1, comp magnum 280H (Hyd. flat tappet too!!) STOCK 416 casting heads with a set of 918 springs, backcut STOCK 1.84/1.5 valve, minor minor bowl work and milled .030". dual plane intake, hedman long tubes. i paid $1200 for a Red Neck Performance th350 and converter combo, blah blah blah...the car would run 12.3x's at 108mph totin' the front left tire...i'm sorry but that's pretty substancial...

this isn't to take anything away from you fast ls1, you bring up some good points, but people have been tuning at the track alot longer than they have been tuning on the dyno...some people's budgets allow for the dyno tune, some don't...mine doesn't, so i had to figure it out on my own.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

If your budget can't fit $250 to make you car run perfect than......
maybe i'm out of line.

Your 305 build sounds like it ran good numbers. There's only one problem, The origanal posters numbers stink. There still 1 and a half seconeds off even with thirdgen.org tuning.

Again, I am not against home tuning. I am just PRO DYNO. It skips the time and agrivation and goes right to enjoyment.

- Your feet can do just as much walking without shoes but you still waste
$30-70 on shoes?

Big Dog Chevy

Thats true I agree but for me and many like me getting to the track often and year round can be a little hard to do. I also like all the in depth info you can get from tunning your car on the dyno. It can show you things like top end valve float, dips in the hp chart and af ratio per rpm. I had a car that I was running at the track last year and could not figure out why the eighth mile didn't calculate with the quarter miles et and mph. Car was pulling timing out at 5200- 5800 rpms. So we played with the tune, changed out the coil, mod and then the msd box, changed the plugs and wires and replaced the damn knock sensor all for nothing. Took it to the dyno made two pulls read the chart. Got back to the shop pulled the valve covers and a rocker arm and BAM found the problem. The valve float caused the rockers to jump but we couldn't tell while we were at the track. We were lucky the rockers didn't break. After getting the springs and rockers right the car dropped a half second off the et and from the old hp at 6000 rpm to the new it gained 68hp! I'm pro dyno too.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

I'll end my portion of the PRO DYNO movement. I have said my peace.


MCBCHILD....If you want a converter that will work with your combination give me a call. I spec out custom race converters each day for 300HP up to 2500HP. Blower, Turbo, Nitrous, Fulton motors, Pro-line motors, Sonny's Hemi 700+ CU and many more.
I can get you squared away. From $346- 2100.00

610-485-9110
Justin@Transmission-Specialties.com

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

mcbchild, definitely give fast ls1 a call about a properly setup converter, it'll help!

as far as the dyno thing goes, it's kinda 6 in one, half dozen in the other...you get used to using the tools you have available to you. my car had no dyno time, just whittling away at the track, and i do have the pride of saying i did it myself.

zz17iroc

iTrader: (4)

Hey Matt, what's up? I can agree with both side about tuning, but I too like you agree with tuning at the track. You mentioned earlier how your budget 305 was successful at running 12.30's in which I saw with my own eyes. You also went into some detail on how you did it. Other members of this board like to use the dyno to find problems like valve float and to see where the combos peak torque and horsepower begins and ends. In my case I knew I was going to take my set up above 6500 RPM. I took the time to set up the proper install height of springs, set up proper spring pressures closed and open valve. I took all the steps to eleminate problem areas. And was blessed with low 11's on motor and mid to low 10's with nitrous on a daily driver without using the dyno. Although alot of people ask "me about RWHP" I say I don't know and at times I wish I'd knew just because! But all in all, I also have alot tuning aids to work with like a WB O2 sensor and other tuning software to assist in my power efforts. So instead of paying to use the dyno I used that money for a WB because I already knew the combo was solid. I know what your thinking "I don't know how to tune like that?". You better start learning how if you want to go fast!!


Don't get me wrong to each it's own.

loneroad

iTrader: (3)

my

What is the rpm range of your heads,cam and intake? Imguessing 3500 and up.(IT guys blocked summit and jegs at work, cant look up parts) If your launching at 2000 your just flushing the toilet. your motor cant use all that fuel and air at low of rpm. im guessing that it picks up at the 1/8th and moves out?

mcbchild

iTrader: (1)

It does pickup around the eighth. That is why I am having justin re-stall my converter and see if that should help. I already locked out my advance and will see how well it goes with the re-stalled converter after Justin works with it. Hopefully then, I can start playing with the carb/jets/squirters and so on.

loneroad

iTrader: (3)

i looked at your heads and intake and the bottom rpm is 3500.if your launching at 2000, thats where your bog, bad 60ft and fouled plugs are coming from.
you need to get the rpms up at launch.

id look at getting a trans brake.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i think that's a little overkill honestly...it'd be nice, but not necessary.

badsonic

WOW I SHIFT MY JUNK AT 5400 AND TURN RIGHT 6000 AT THE STRIPE TRY SHIFTING LOWER LISTENING TO GUYS THAT TELL U NEED MORE RPM COST U TIME AND MONEY. YOU HAVE A FLAT TAPPET CAM NOT A ROLLER YOU DONT HAVE TO TURN **** LOAD OF RPM TO RUN FAST, BUT I MUST SAY FOR THE COMBO THAT I HAVE I HAVE A STOUT 60' THATS WHERE I MAKE MY ET....

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

My flat tappett spins to 6500 and 6800 over the stripe. And I have less duration than you and the poster. The car works perfect. This is backed up with my dyno sheet. Have you dyno'd your car? shifting at 5400 is a waste if your motor works to 6500+. Why waste horsepower you payed for???? What your doing is the definition of wasting time(E.T) and money.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

my 350 right before the ls1 went into the car was a solid flat tappet that went to 7200rpm...rpm is relative to duration and lobe angle numbers, not roller or flat

badsonic

you got more cubes than me and turn about 1000 more rpm and were both running similar times go figure. i guess im doing something wrong as for my combo never hit a dyno but it does not like higher than 5500 shift points i tried shifting over 6 grand and it kills it, and as for what this kids combo has i wouldnt recommend shifting higher than 6300 and as for flat tappet cams the cup cars in nascar they turn 9500 rpm for 500 miles on a flat tappet cam.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

Actually i'm running 6mph faster than your combo launching off idle. And besides cubes, everything you have is more than me.

IF your car isn't working past 5500 rpm's than your a better canidate for the dyno than the origanal poster. Something isn't right. You have a 250's/260's Duration @ .050. Call your cam company. I'd want to get that straigtened out before you spread advise to others...

The origanal poster has already up'd his shift point to 6500+ and has been going faster and faster.

badsonic

lmfao im gonna go dyno my car today maybe ill pick up 100 hp and run low 10s trust me i know what im doin mr. leaving at idle wtf

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i'm with justin on this one, a camshaft in the 254/256*duaration range is going to want to make power to 6500-6800rpm...it might be worth a phone call to the camshaft manufactorer. it sounds like to me you don't have enough valve spring and it's getting into valve float, which would show in the way of slowing down after 5500rpm.

what valve springs and installed height are you running?

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

The only thing thats a joke here is your 5400 rpm shift point. Oh, and the fact that you think it's normal. You apearently havn't a clue what your doing. I would be willing to bet the dyno fee's that you have issues. If my car wasn't making power past 5400 I wouldn't be bragging about it. LMFAO!!!!

I leave at idle because my car is really a 10 seoned car on a bad pair of tires. I guarentee my next pass will be well off into the tens.

mcbchild

iTrader: (1)

My car does make more power when I shift at the higher rpms. I started at 6200 and went 12.7x then up the shift to 6800 and went into the lower 12.x Even with the flat tappet, this engine should go safely to 7000 rpms and still have power. I have already locked my timing out and will have Justin re-stall my converter since I am using footbrake and hopefully allow me to launch at around 3500-4000 rpms using my footbrake and since my power band is between 4000-7200 rpm, this will have me launching within my power band and my shifting rpms should only drop low enough to keep me in my power band as per Justin and this does make sense.

Badsonic, what tach are you using to were you are only shifting at 5400 rpms? I used to have those WP sportsman II heads and still I had my shifting point between 5800 and 6200 rpms. But I also had a problem with my ignition coil going bad to where my power was falling off really bad cause I was not getting enough spark and also had 2 broken inner valve springs. Also, this is supposed to be a friendly board and name calling is not necessary, people can state their opinions on whatever and that is exactly what we are doing stating opinions. What works for your car may not work for other and vice-versa. Some people have experience with some parts of a car and others may have opinions of other parts of a car. This place is designed to give people ideas at what may work and what may not work and that is all. No one is saying one person is bad/stupid for some of their thoughts or opinions, just what works for them.

mcbchild

iTrader: (1)

I will take it to GLD this coming Wednesday and see how she does with the timing locked out. Then the week after I'll get the convert re-stalled.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i am PRO DYNO and just wanted to make a few points....

i think its funny when people shift their car at 7,000 because thats what the cam card said it was good for.
put that car on a dyno and it may peak at 6,000.

also, there is a whole lot of people out there tuning their cars on the track that have no idea their valves are floating and dropping 50-60rwhp.
put that car on a dyno and the printout will show you exactly whats going on.

my 23 degree sbc made the most power at 32 degrees of timing.

when on motor, i footbrake my car off idle to 1.55 60's using a j&w 3600 10" converter. its a stock shortblock 350 LT1, with ported stock heads and a 23x-24x off the shelf comp hydro roller. it peaks around 6500. runs 11.0's on motor and high 9's on the juice.

dyno tuned.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

How much juice if you don't mind me asking. I will be getting a 50-300 kit soon and shooting for 9.XX's


Also whats you 11.0 MPH?

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

not real sure right now, i should know in another week or 2. we dont have any 1/4 tracks local so i do not go often. i can tell you my last 1/8 times though...
motor- 1.55 60' 7.12@97
180 shot- 1.34 60' 6.29@108

the 180 shot was box stock nos jetting. probably more of a 150 shot really. and my progressive was starting at 0% off the line and ramping up from there. my next pass will be starting at a 150 shot off the line, and im going to lean out the jetting some. also, i've added front drag brakes since then.
last year was the last time i ran the 1/4 with it, and only made nitrous passes. it went a 6.43@106, 10.14@131. that was a full 180 shot with much crappier heads.

mcbchild

iTrader: (1)

Ok, I just gotta ask what specs are on your motor and what is your race weight?