mdricken

I hear guys do this all the time on LT1 cars. It is supposed to take like 4hours total. But does anyone know if it's worth it on a thirdgen? You wouldnt have to remove the radiator/condensor or distributor. also no motor mount removal. Als wouldnt have to hold the trans up.

I've got a lift in my garage so am seriously considering doing this.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

I dont have a lift....and Im STILL doing it this way. Im gettin ready to do an LS1 swap and I plan on dropping both engines out through the bottom. Ive been told that it really is easier and less of a headache. I was at a shop about a month ago and watched a couple of guys drop the motor out of a 99 camaro this way. Granted it wasnt their first time...but they had the motor dropped, mods done, and motor back in and running in a few hours. Just take your time and make sure its all disconnected just like doing it the traditional way.


Justin

mdricken

Cool!

Just out of curiousity how do you jack the car up so high without a lift?

Since you've done this so much on a 3rd gen, what are the main steps?

Apeiron

Remember the front suspensions are entirely different on a thirdgen and fourthgen. The fourthgen has upper and lower control arms, and the thirdgen has a modified macpherson strut.

What do you mean by "no motor mount removal"? You don't remove the motor mounts to swap engines on a thirdgen.

If you were careful enough you wouldn't have to remove the radiator either.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Hey guys. Well...I personally havent done it this way on a 4th gen or a 3rd gen. Ive seen it done, and understand why its much easier, even though common sense wants to tell you that its more difficult. Ill post a pic of the general set up (4th gen...hope the mods dont mind in this case.) Ok...on to specific questions.

When I said you dont have to remove the mounts, I meant that you dont have to remove the mounts while they are in the car. Once you drop the engine crossmember, and have the drivetrain out, its much easier to disassemble the mounts and other parts. Thats just my opinion anyway.

As far as the suspensions being different...this is true. But...the way that they come apart is very similar. 3rd gen...strut. Basically gotta unbolt it from the strut tower, then the engine cradle bolts and its loose. 4th gen...double a-arm. Basically have to unbolt the a-arm mount and coilover from the "strut tower" and its loose.

For me....Going this route has a few advantages. For others, pulling it out through the top might be the only way. For instance....Im also completely rebuilding my steering and suspension. Much easier to work on some of that stuff without the crossmember in place. Ill be installing long tubes. Much easier to install the headers on the engine before the motor goes in. Oh...and no hood removal! Well...unless you think it gets in your way. Im doing it outside so I have no reason to remove the hood.

Ok...now here is the pic of the set up. Althought it may not look as safe as some of you will think, it works quite well. Once the motor and tranny are unbolted from the car, the front of the car is not very heavy. An engine hoist easily lifts it. Basically...it goes like this.

Put the back of the car on ramps or blocks or whatever you have that is stable, that will get the rear off the ground a good bit. Begin unbolting things that need to be unbolted, leaving the main support bolts loose but still in. Of course the usual stuff applies. Unplug wires, hoses, etc etc. Find a suitable way to attach the hoist to the rad. support or something (youre on your own here). Lift just a hair on the front. Have a dolly or something with wheels under the motor and tranny so you can roll it. Floor jacks may work. Unbolt any remaning bolts. Slowly lift body off of motor and trans. Afterwards, set the body back down on jack stands. No messing with tilting the motor, no separating of the tranny, no worrying about damaging the fenders or bumper. Installation is the reversal of removal.



Ok...I know that was a lot and some of you might just skip to the pic. Truth is...I dont know what to expect with the 3rd gen. The 4th gen will be easy. I assume that the 3rd gen will go smooth also seeing as how they are fairly similar. If you search around on this site...you will find a thread about doing it this way. I saw it years ago, and havent been able to locate it again. Ill be sure to document my method when I start this project this week. Lots of pics and lots of write ups to come! Especially the ls1 wiring

Justin

RaGe

I dropped my LT1 from the bottom of the 93 parts car I picked up. It took me a little bit, but it was a pretty smooth all around process.

I don't see why it couldn't be done on the thirdgen, but I pulled my trans off and the pulled the engine out with a picker.

I think the main reason people drop the k-member in the fourth gens is because of lack of room through the top.. this isn't an issue with a thirdgen car.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Good point. Were I think the issue is, is if you want to remove motor and tranny together. I havent tried this with a 3rd gen...but unless you can get the car off the ground a good bit, that sounds kinda hard. Again...Im not speaking from experience. Ive done quite a few motors from above but they were on older full frame cars, with a good bit of the front clip removed. I might sound like a wuss...but I HATE the idea of unbolting a trans from a motor while its in the car. Again...on the older cars it wasnt quite as bad, but its just one of those things I dont really love to do.

The nice thing about dropping it from below is that some of the more difficult areas to work on, like the exhaust, because no problem. Since you drop the exhaust and y-pipe with the engine and trans.

I think it also depends on what you are doing. If you are changing just the motor, maybe it would be easier to unbolt the tranny and all that and just lift the engine.

All I know is...Im glad that when the LS1 is in my car, it wont be halfway under the cowl! I dont know how those guys work on their 4th gens like that.

I will post when I remove the motor's and give you guys a run down on what its like to drop it from below on a 3rd gen without using a lift. Im hoping to start stripping the 4th gen this Sunday or Monday.

Justin

RaGe

When I dropped the drivetrain in the 93, it was quite a bit of fun.

I used a combination of my jack, jack stands, concrete blocks, and strong freind or two.

To get the car out of the garage with the k-member out of the car we basicly took turns deadlifting the car and carrying it out... most of the work was done by a friend of mine whos about 6' and 300 lbs... He carried the car a good ways like that... I was able to pick it up for long enough to get the jackstands out of the way.. (about 30 seconds) ... picking the car up by the front end and moving it sounds intimidating - but the back of the car is on wheels.. Not that bad, but I wouldn't want to do it on a huge incline!

As far as getting the motor slid from underneath the car - I put a small wooden cart underneath the kmember, then jacked the car up, then put jackstands, then jacked the car up with the jack on blocks, then put jack stands on blocks... Eventually I think I got the car like 4 or 5 feet off the ground.. It was a bit wobbly - and probably not all that safe.

Putting my lt1/t56 into my car from the bottom is tempting - but I am worried about aligning the k-member and such.. I think a lot of the secret of this methood is getting the strut brace and attaching a cherry picker to it.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Rage: You got it...the cherry picker should make things much easier and probably much more stable. I HATE floor jacks. They roll around and my driveway isnt exacly perfectly level. haha. I planned on attaching the cherry picker to the front down by the radiator support somehow. Without the weight of the engine in the car, the stress shouldnt be too bad.

As far as re-aligning the k-member during install... one trick I heard of is to use a long bolt and install it into the rear most hole of the k-member. this will act sort of like a guide dowl to atleast help get things lined up. You use the rear most hole because of course when lowering the body the "engine bay" will move forward during down travel. I think the biggest thing is to make sure whatever cart you have the drive train on has nice casters or rollers so you can easily shift things around. The ls1/t56 combo should be alittle easier to man handle being a good bit lighter.

Justin

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I just have to chime in here because I'm afraid someone might follow these recommendations and get killed. Lifting the car and holding it with an engine hoist ranks among one of the most stupid and dangerous things I have ever seen suggested on this forum. Any hydraulic hoist is for temporary use only and you should never put your body between whatever you are lifting and the ground. Car lifts have mechanical locks and safety devices that keep the lift from collapsing. Your engine hoist has none of these features. NEVER EVER hold weight on the engine hoist for long periods. It's a serious safety violation. You might get away with it for a while but's that's just the nature of accidents... you don't know when they will happen.

FYI - most work place injuries happen because people don't follow safety work instructions, misuse equipment (this case), or remove safety features.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Whoa dude...First of all...when did I ever say that the hoist needed to hold the entire weight of the car while you are under it??? Using this procedure, you are NEVER under the car while the weight is being supported by the hoist. You have slight tension on the hoist...but the wheels are STILL on the ground/ramps. The only thing the hoist is doing while you are messing with anything under the car is just barely putting upward tension on the body. Even when the hoist is lifting...its lifting the front of the car only. THe rear of the car is supported at ALL times. When the engine/tranny/crossmember are not attached the car, the front of the car is not that heavy. As was said above...with everything out of the engine bay, an average sized guy can almost lift the front of the car by himself... The engine hoist is not going to be stressed to the point of becoming dangerous for the short period its being used.

That being said...I did forget to add a few things...that I guess I figured were common sense. First...DONT CRAWL UNDER THE CAR WHILE THE HOIST IS BEING USED!! Everything should be unbolted, disconnected, removed etc before lifting the body. Second...Once the body is lifted far enough to remove the motor and tranny, jack stands of sufficient height and weight capacity should be placed under the body as a safety precaution. The hoist will still be holding the weight, but the stands are there. If you want to let the body down on the stands while you slide the motor out, then do that. On a good cart with nice casters, sliding the motor out will only take a few seconds. Once the motor is clear, either lower the body onto the jack stands, or remove the stands and lower the body back down to the ground or onto wood blocks. At this point the car is on jack stands...which is considered to be a safe way of supporting the car.

Sorry if I made it sound like you were leaving the car on the hoist for like a week while you rebuild the underside of the car. Its ONLY to lift the body, clear the drivetrain, then to set the body back down to a stable support.

Most stupid and dangerous things ever suggested on this site???/ Youve got to be kidding me...haha. Ive seen much worse. I like to think that when I do something I take in to account a good level of safety. Ive worked with cars for quite awhile. Im not claiming to be a master mechanic, or a know it all. But...I have been around cars long enough to see some stupid things. Heck I even saw a LIFT fail and the car came crashing down...even with those safety stops.

Maybe that was my mistake for assuming that people reading this would understand unspoken safety measures...I apologize for leaving them out. Its common sense to me not to climb under something while its lifted with a hoist...but I should have mentioned it. Im not here to fight with you QwkTrip. Its probably a good thing that you brought up the safety aspect. Personally...I dont like having to use this procedure. I would much rather have a lift. Please dont take this response as disrespect. I didnt come up with this idea...so Im not offended that you dont like it But I dont think its the WORST and MOST dangerous idea on this site.

Justin

83z28camaro

I have dropped the motor and trans out of a 3rd gen I was parting out. Basicly I pulled the harness from the firewall on both sides of the car and layed it on the engine disconnected all the hoses and fuel lines. I unbolted the master cylinder and layed it over on the engine. Disconnected the steering shaft and throttle cable. I probably forgot some stuff but that is the basic idea. Then unbolt the k-member and lift the body off. It works pretty good and plan on putting my lt1 in the same way.

StevenK

iTrader: (1)

When I did my LS1 swap, I pulled the L98 from the bottom.

First I put the car up on jack stands, unhooked all the major stuff, then we hooked the engine hoist to the frame rails on the front of the car

Then we put a couple of jacks under the k-member / a-frames and removed the k-member bolts


We then lifted the now very light front end of the car up enough to get the motor out from under the car

We left the front end in the air, using only the engine hoist for at least 3 or 4 hours, and it did not drop at all, I think all that speculation about safety concerns is total BS.
Here is a picture showing how we hooked up the hoist, We used the same bolt area as where the wonder bar hooked up so there would be plenty of support to keep the frame rails from flexing or getting damaged.


Hope that helps you.

Ohh, and when I put the LS1 in, I dropped it in from the top.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Safety is never too important. And it certainly is not common sense as this thread proves. You need to have an appreciation for how mechanical systems can fail and take proper precausions. This is serious stuff. Block the car as soon as it is lifted. It is one extra step that can save your life. Pretty good exchange for the amount of effort it takes.

StevenK

iTrader: (1)

Perhaps we should agree to disagree. A thirdgen with no front suspension, motor, and k-member, pivoting with the majority of the remaining weight on the back of the car can EASILY be held up by a engine hoist that is rated to hold more than a typical floor jack IMHO is perfectly safe.

Granted if your using some half ***, 50 year old hoist, you might want to be a little more carefull, but thats more along the lines of don't use faulty equipment.

I'd like to see an example of how your supposed to 'block' the car for safety when its that high in the air, my Jackstands (the good kind) didn't even make it half way to the frame after I had it lifted high enough to slide the motor out.

You'll also notice in the pictures of us sliding out the motor, NOONE got under the car, we worked from the sides, and wheel well areas, so its not like we were playing jump rope on the roof while someone was laying under the car.

A little common sense goes a loooong way.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

I think what qwktrip is basically trying to say is that there is a level of danger to doing this. However...I dont believe its any more dangerous than using a floor jack to lift the car. As long as you use some common sense, removing a motor using this method is pretty darn safe I think. I trust a GOOD engine hoist over a floor jack any day. Ive had more things shift, and come down while using a floor jack to almost not like those suckers.

StevenK: Im glad you stepped in with some pics and your experience. I was actually looking for that post last night but gave up. haha. Your post was actually the one that convinced me to do it this way. I was actually not sure on where to hook the hoist until this post so now i know!
The reason that Im installing it all from the bottom as well, is that its easier for me to bolt the tranny, long tubes, and suspension pieces together, then just bolt it all up under the car. Either way would work fine im sure.

Oh..and about blocking the car once its on the hoist. I have a set of metal frames that were built out of angle iron. THey are heavy as heck, probably way overkil. The sides almost follow the angle of the jack stand, so they are far from tipsy. I think they are almost 12" high. They will only be used until the motor is clear then Ill be lowering it all back down to normal working height to clean the engine bay and all.

QwkTrip, Thanks for bringing up the safety issue. I should have addressed that more. However saying that this thread contains no common sense, and assuming none of us are going to take safer precautions is just that..an assumption. If those common sense parts were explained in detail they wouldnt be common sense anymore. haha.

Anyway...I think the point is that you can safely drop your motor from the bottom using this method. Key word being safely... use extra support when possible, take your time and make sure its all ready to come out before you start lifting. If you get caught on something (wire, bolt, hose), lower the car back down, free it, and lift again.

Justin

83z28camaro

I forgot to mention you have to do something with the front springs. Since I wasn't going to use the parts I removed from the car right away and did not want to misplace something. I used a piece of 1/2" threaded rod and a piece of angle steel to hold the springs at the installed height. It has been sitting for a year now without any problems.