Power AdderGetting a Supercharger or Turbocharger? Thinking about using Nitrous? All forced induction and N2O topics discussed here.
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Unless the search function is letting me down, there isn't much information about this topic.
My interest comes from an upcoming "need for speed", namely Pinks All Out. They have a 12.99 max ET requirement the event; at our 5800' altitude, I come up a bit short - 13.3's typical. So, I need to add a little to get more toward the sea level performance the car is capable of. Nitrous makes the most sense.
I've been looking into this since last winter, and haven't had much success. There are a couple of outfits that have done work with nitrous and E85, such as Nitrous Systems and Nitrous Express, but their websites don't have much information on how to do it yourself. There were some weight/time/power level flow values, but that was about it. And, their E85 systems tend to be pricey and/or overkill.
Talking to a fellow racer earlier in the season, he said he had an Edelbrock Performer kit that he bought with the intention of modifying for E85 use, but ended up stroking the engine instead. So, he sold me the still-bubble-wrapped kit for about 2/3rds of its going price. It's a 50-75-100 kit, but even the 50 should get me under 12.99, 75 would mostly compensate for the altitude, 100 would guarantee it even on a hot day.
I called Edelbrock's tech line to find out if they had done anything with nitrous and E85, as I had heard they had done carb work with E85. Well, about all they could tell me is their materials were compatible with E85, including the solenoids. So, not much help there.
The typical stoich flow ratio E85:gasoline is 1.47. Meaning you'd need 147% of the flow area of gasoline to equal the fuel flow required for E85. I corresponded with Mike Trittle, who contributed to the E85 thread on the Carburetor forum, he confirmed that for the people he knows that have run E85 and nitrous. The Edelbrock kit has 46-53-65 jets (which stand for .046", .053", and .065") for the 50-75-100 shots, respectively, assuming 5.5 psi fuel pressure. Doing the flow area math, the 65 jet would work with the 75 shot, but the 100 shot would require a .079" jet. Neither Jegs nor Summit could get me a jet that size on time, so I checked locally - all I could come up with were .078" and .080". So, I guess I'll either use the .078" at my current fuel pressure setting of 7 psi, or use the .080" and drop fuel pressure to 5.5-6 psi.
I have yet to turn a wrench to install the system, hope to start that process tonight. I added a purge solenoid to the parts obtained, not sure how necessary it is but was recommended by another fellow Pinks AO entrant who needed to pick his car up (he's running gasoline). I run a 2-step and have been flooring it upon staging, so I'll need another relay to open the circuit when the brake is on - or change my staging/launch so I don't engage the nitrous until I leave (in other words, don't floor it until I leave). I won't have a lot of testing opportunities (PAO testing is Aug 8), so hopefully this small of a shot won't lead to problems.
For the record, this is for the 396, which was put together with forged pistons (~10:1 static CR) and somewhat loose ring gap (.028" if memory serves - it was 11 years ago). I have an MSD Digital 6, so can also do spark retard if necessary. I did consider converting back to gasoline for this one event, but the only gasoline carb I have right now is a standard Holley 4779 that needs completely going through. I'm not too worried about the car handling it, as it's only going to go about as fast as it did at sea level.
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Got started installing it last night. Looking at the plate, man, those holes are tiny. Thought I'd better double-check the flow capacity of the plate, Edelbrock tech said it's good to 125 horse on gasoline, so it should be okay for E85. But, now I'm wondering if it's marginal.
You're adding the same amount of extra oxygen. You need to add the same ratio more E85 vs. gasoline as you do NA. Theoretically, it would produce the same power difference as it would doing a 75 shot with gasoline.
But, octane differences, CR, VE, NA HP, all those old variables, come into play. Since my CR is relatively low for E85, I may not have to retard the timing with N2O + E85 like I would for N2O + gasoline (I run the same advance at sea level as I do at altitude, for what that's worth). So, the power gain might be slightly more, since I would probably have to retard the timing with gasoline & the shot.
I was thinking more along the lines of the BTU difference. If I figured it out correctly e85 should give you 4 or 5% more BTUs in the cylinder. Not much extra power at that hp level though.....
I built the engine in 1997. I converted the fuel system only (basically the carb) to E85 in 2006.
If built for E85, it would have more compression. I ran gasoline briefly the beginning of the 2007 season (long story) - it was slower than on E85. Probably tuning issues. But, I've never firmly established the power difference with only the change in fuel and associated tuning.
From everything I've heard, you need to raise compression to get the power possible out of E85, at which point it will put out slightly more power than the same engine on gasoline.
I was hoping to get far enough along to get some weekend tests in, but didn't make it. A lot of details, I think I'm getting close, though.
I finished the plumbing, got the bottle filled, and went to check for leaks - there was a big one at the bottle adapter. Apparently Edelbrock didn't put a thick enough Teflon gasket in the kit, as the bottle fitting nut wasn't threaded all the way to the bottom, and the threads bottomed out before the Teflon washer was getting compressed. I took those two pieces to a local speed shop, all they had on hand were Edelbrock adapters, and he said they all looked the same. He did have a thicker NOS brand Teflon washer, so hopefully that will cure the problem.
The Edelbrock purge valve came with an in-line adapter that had sheared-off threads in the female end - not sure what that was about, but after digging the thread piece out, it fit fine.
If the thick washer takes care of that leak, and there aren't any others, all that's left is the wiring. I think I have everything lined up for that.
i run e85 an i love it.
the quick fuel kit is for 4150 dp carbs.
it does not include new jets, new airbleads, and new boosters or squirters
i would suggets buying a whole new carb for e85. they are more but you get a high flow mainbody, billet baseplate and better bowls.
my e85 carb is tuned for a blowthrough turbo applicatoin. but i tried it on my s10 anyway.
drained all fuel out of system, added in new e85 bolted on carb. and ran.
within 3 passes i matched my et and mph on 114 race gas, on spray i was faster on a 175 shot than i had went before on 225. \
to buy 114 arround here now is anywhere from 8 -12: a gallon
and e85 has went down to 3.20 - 3.30
i have had no corison issues, and no problems with leaving it in between races. i love the stuff.
buy running it instead of 114 im saving about 60-80 a weekend on race gas
and the truck et dosent slow down due to temp outside. unless the track sucks. but the motor mph realy never slows
I copied mattsv8_03's post from the Carburetor forum here, as his experience was more power with E85 than with gasoline shot-for-shot. I communicated that to Mike, he attributed it to the slower burning rate.
I finished the install last night and verified the circuits w/o fuel or nitrous turned on. Hope to finish the check-out this afternoon and get to the track for test & tune, weather permitting.
I'm sure I won't have time/resources to optimize this, if it makes it quick enough and doesn't hurt anything, I'll be happy.
T&T tonight, a police/patrol sponsored "take it to the track night". Lots of front wheel drive cars, everybody runs in the groove. Weather forecast not promising.
DA 8700', 10-15 MPH head wind.
NA:
1.89 60' (worse than usual), 13.410 @ 99.7 MPH (about a 10 MPH head wind).
1st nitrous pass, 57 nitrous/80 fuel jets, 4 degrees retard in the box:
1.68 60', 12.019 @110.6 MPH (about a 15 MPH head wind).
Best nitrous pass, same jets, no retard in the box:
1.66 60', 11.996 @ 111.0 MPH (about a 10 MPH cross head wind).
A couple of nice things:
RT's still in the "reasonable" range; ran two 11.996's back-to-back; all MPH 110 or better; worst nitrous pass 12.06 with a low bottle and 78 fuel jet (probably shouldn't have run it that way); rain held off until after the last pass of the night.
It seemed to like the 80 fuel jet and no retard best. Probably means I need more advance NA (but my CR is pretty low).
My goal was to get comfortably under the 12.99 requirement for PINKS All Out, more like what it runs at sea level - I think I over-achieved a little.
