bEtUr4dRustang

I've been looking around TURBO MUSTANGS and found some info.

SAAB 9000 (16V Intercooled) 87-88 2.0L GAR TB0356
SAAB 900 (16V Intercooled) 87 2.0L GAR TB0339 (Oilcld)
SAAB 900 (16V Intercooled) 84-86 2.0L GAR TB0339 (Oilcld)
SAAB 9000 (16V Intercooled) 85-86 2.0L GAR TB0343

CHRYSLER LeBaron 89-92 2.5L MHI TE04H
CHRYSLER LeBaron 88 2.5L MHI TE04H

That is in the list of turbos that will work on a 5.0L. I want to know why they will work though and if they still be big enough for a 5.7L. The exhaust A/R isn't available on that site and I was just curious if anyone could say compare these to the T3s off manual 85-86 T birds.

I ask because a friend of mine has apparently met a guy that claims to get saab 900s and turbo lebarons into his junkyard all the time. alteast one a week apparently.

bEtUr4dRustang

I should really research before I post, but i figure someone might want to learn with me.

The lebaron turbo, a TE04H has no compressor map published but it should be very very simliar to a TD04H-13G and i found its compressor map.


SO on a 350 redlining at 6000 rpm. Those probably won't work well. They are right on the choke line and since its not the exact compressor map, i'd be inclined to leave them alone unless someone else has used them before with success...reason for the post lol

bad_turbo

I'm not really familiar with the turbos in question, but given the car manufacturers were pretty cautious about making "too much" power with their power adders, I would think if those turbos were made to keep those 4 cylinders from making "too much" power, then they would just choke your 350 to death. Find some maps on TO4E turbos. Those seem to work fine on sbc. They will flow on average enough air for 400-500 hp on the sbc. Maybe look for a junkyard turbo whose map compares to those. Just my 2 cents.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Well, depending on what you're looking for they would probably be a little on the small side as twins on a 350, but they would work. I don't know who came up with this choke line thing but the turbo works past that line, it just adds a lot of heat. FWIW, for a street car you want to be closer to the right hand side of the map then the left.

Assuming no intercooler, and that you're 350 would be fairly tame and at about 80% VE at 6k rpm, you'd be right about at the point labeled on the map at 15psi, and making about 540hp…

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Another thought... there used to be a web site out there of someone with a 350 TPI 3rd gen that was running low 11's with a pair of them...

bEtUr4dRustang

Well... I guess i'm still looking for manual T bird 63/60s then.

The exhaust size on the dodge and saab turbos are both .48. I assume that means they would run out of juice by the top of the rpm band. I may still consider them though depending on what sort of deal can be hashed out with the guy who claims to run several of these cars through his place a week.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

what are the goals for this setup?

heh... you missed out, I sold 3 pairs of 60/.63's in the last 2 months.

I think that I know where I can get 2 more, but I'm not going to be able to get them before the next nasty bit of weather and don't know if they'll be there after that.

I do have a new (or possibly fresh rebuild...) t-bird IHI

bEtUr4dRustang

Goals...

I know it sounds a bit ridiculous but i don't have any true HP goals, other than more than I've got right now. Deffinately not looking for 9s or even 10s. I'd probably be happy running in the mid to 11s atleast until the bug for more power bit me again. Course thats what I'm looking to get, so any more and I'd have no issues with it. It still needs to be relatively streetable. The car gets driven nearly every day to work in the summer. Work is only 5-10 min away though so I'm not too concerned. Cruises too of course.

I know I could do this for much less work and trouble by going NA but I'm tired of everyone and their grandma having a 383. I want to do something different, something DIY junkyard, and something that will get the oohs and ahs at the car shows and actually make some of the keen hotrod guys take a look at a lowly third gen.

I guess the plan was/is as follows.

ZZ1 comes apart. Reuse the forged crank, Eagle H beams, and some forged slugs. Probably ARP bolts (are they really worth all the extra money?) Hopefully I can get a piston for the right price that is dished enough to yield a low compression (8.5ish?) with the 58cc chamber heads...if not, i might have to look around for a bigger combustion chamber head though I really don't want to. Then again, you've mentioned several times that the design of these heads involves terrible quench and promotes detonation, so I would bet they wouldn't be the best heads to have on a boosted engine.

Engine then goes back together but with a converted LT1 intake on top of it with the SY/TY computer instead of a carb.

I'd like it all under a stock hood if possible too.

The ZZ1 cam deffinately isn't the best nor the worst blower cam. Although too large duration wise, I'll leave it in for now unless it seems like it really wouldn't do the engine justice. 235/235 .480/.480 with 1.5s and .512/.512 with 1.6s on a 114 LSA

I'm not really decided on the number of turbos but I am relatively positive on the whole turbo route, vs the roots blowers (m90-M112) With the new setup, I'm expecting to be shifting around 6000, where i shift it now.

I'll probably see a set of your ex-turbos this christmas break as I live about an hour from TPI383 and he found the last V8 RS spring we weren't able to find in his garage last time I was over there. Plan is to cut them like you explained in a thread over on 3GO.

Still trying to find out about these LeBaron turbos. I guess that i want to do this project and not want to make the car any faster for a long time after it so I don't know how serious I should be when looking into them.

BIG_MODS

iTrader: (9)

Would 4 of those smaller turbos on a larger small block, like a 427, be unreasonable? If you figure that those turbos came on 2.0L engines and a 427 is 7.0 L, 4 would be a good fit. It might not even need to be that large of an engine.

bEtUr4dRustang

I would think..but it becomes one hell of a packaging issue. 4 turbos, 4 down pipes (atleast for a bit), 4 intakes, 4 compressor outputs (atleast for a little bit)... Thats not going to fit under the hood of many cars.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

OK, so you're looking for about 450hp (figuring a 3600# car, my formula is 3710 with me in it, about 310#... most people are 100-150# lighter then me so 3600 in a 3rd gen is reasonable) to run 11.5's. That's a little more then 300cfm or 21lb/min per turbo. Almost any pair of 4 cylinder tubos will be more then enough for that, even something like the little IHI's or something (there are mustang guys that have run 10's with them)

Smaller turbos will fell more like you just added lots of cubic inches… larger turbos tend to take longer to spool and feel more like a power adder. Personally, for the street I'd rather err on the small side.

you can do just about anything to a 3rd gen and lots of people won't pay attention.

I'm assuming that you're talking about the old aluminum L98 style heads? I'm not sure that I've ever said anything about quench with them, but I do not like them from a port shape perspective and the chambers are a pretty, well unexciting.

FWIW, with factory like clearances you'll need about a 25cc dish/reverse dome to get the compression that low. If you try to actually get decent quench (good quench distance, a real reverse dome…) you're looking for something in the range of 30cc or more…

Without some serious cleanup they'll be your restriction no matter what else you do… figure you'll need 10-15psi boost with these heads to run 11's

Personally, with those heads I'd go with a stock TPI… I don't know of an intake that flows worse then them so you might as well use something that will help you some off boost. I guess it's not that important if you use smaller turbos.

Huh… anyone have advertised numbers for that thing? That may make a killer turbo cam… can you still buy it anywhere?

which thread at 3go? Haven't paid attention to that board for months…. What are you doing with the RS springs… are we talking suspension springs? Actually, I think I know what you're talking about, but I wasn't talking about RS springs. How far are you planning on lowering it? With a mild drop they might be OK for street/drag use, but not for handling… I guess I'd need more details…

Well, you said that you answered your own question in a PM… If y've got the right map (some of those TD04's are really small, I haven't seen the one on the lebaron) they would be OK for what you're looking for… Some of the tiniest mitsu turbos and the IHI's like the RHB3 and RHB5 that was used on the probe are too small…

bEtUr4dRustang

Spring post o 3GO, As i undestand the post, you suggest any V8 spring as the IROC or WS6 springs will be much too harsh if cut.
spring cutting You don't chime in till 3/4 of the way down the page i think.

I got the cam info from here and have seen it documented one other place but never bookmarked it. No advertised durations there.

Sounds like these turbos are going to work for me well then. Are the Saab turbos just as likely to be good? The most important factor here is that I think it may be possible to pickup a pair of them for free.

I'm about to leave for my trip home from School so i have to run. I'll do some more research later.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I'm glad you linked that… I was beginning to think that I said something somewhat deceptive or even stupid. I did have a few typos there…

Notice that I never said anything about RS springs, but "early V8 springs" which are significantly different. RS springs are somewhat at the other end of the spectrum… they were soft and like I said in that thread, they sit probably close to 1.5" lower then the early springs. You could use them somewhat like what I mentioned there for a nice, mild street setup or a good drag setup.

The only set of RS springs that I've ever measured (late, F41) had not only the lower ride height but only a spring rate of 390lb/in as compared to some '83 TA springs and '87 Formula springs that worked out to be about 610 and 640lb/in. If you cut one coil from the RS springs you'd be at about 460lb/in, where the others would put you in the >800lb/in range. As you can see, you're in a different world comparing those 2 springs. I believe (but never looked) that early V6 springs would actually be better then late RS springs… If you wanted to send me EXACT dimensions (measured with a dial caliper in a few places, averaged… inside/outside coil diameter, wire diameter, and the number of free coils (look at the bottom and top and you'll see that the ends touch/stack some, the number of coils that do not touch)) for the springs that you have I could probably make a pretty good guess at what rate they have and what would happen if you cut them.

They will work, they're free… good deal. I suspect that your boost will start dropping off by the 6K that you mentioned at one point, but you'll have way more then the amount of power you're looking for well before then. Secondly, there's plenty of bigger stuff out there that bolts to the same flange that you can upgrade to if you decide that you really need it later. Older saabs should all have T3's on them in one of 2 sizes, fairly similar to what we're talking about here. I'd probably sick to them just because of easy packaging… (the Chrysler turbos can be a PITA for assorted reasons, not the least of which is that they're a bitch to get out of the car in the first place)

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

mmp,

The RS springs he is talking about are F41 out of my 91Vert. I have one here he needs to com epick up. I forget if its front or rear but I could get you measurements 2morrow.

bEtUr4dRustang

If the turbos do turn out to be mostly free, I'll invest in some iron pro toplines to replace those aluminum L98s. Is a compression of about 8.5 what I should be shooting for? 64cc or 76?

saab t3s do have the internal wastegate just like the T bird ones right? And the saabs are intercooled so I think I can get two intercoolers for the price of shipping as well...set them up like Willie's twin intercooled ATI sort of a thing. Upgrade later of course but its hard to refuse free stuff, even if i will have to wait around a while for it.

I bought my car from a guy who's dad raced a thirdgen with stock style suspension. "Wild Child" it was called. He told me about how he ran V6 springs on the cars to aid in weight transfer. My car is, I believe, an IROC though its an 87 and my RPO sticker is missing and IROC wasn't put on the title until 88 so it could just be a clone with the stickers on it. The front swaybar and, if it had one, wonderbar was gone. Have a swaybar now from an 87 305 IROC.

I believe my rear coils must be V6 coils (and worn shocks too). I can push down on my rear end and have it sink atleast 2 inches. My front end, however, is very tight...barely moves...1/2in maybe. I haven't had a chance to look at the front yet but i expect its got drag coils or IROC springs in it. I was hoping these cut V6 springs would work as I don't exactly have the best handling car right now with these terribly mis-matched springs. I can also fit my head between the top of the front tires and the wheel wells; something i would like changed.

There's a junkyard around here with some older Z28s in it, or would it be a better idea to try hunt down some new springs for cutting.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Well, get me some dimensions or pictures and I can probably tell you what you have… what's in there now sounds a lot like early v8 springs… maybe you could just use what's on the car. FWIW, stock '87 formula springs are use a .685" wire and have 4.33 free coils, where the late F41's use a .670" wire and have 6.33 free coils and the coils are slightly smaller in diameter, so you can tell them apart by just looking at them, and you might be able to get some idea of what is in the car by taking a hard look at it.

I wish I could get exact dimensions for some of the Moog or TRW replacements, since if I remember right they are very close to what you're looking for and you'd get a new spring…

8.5 would be nice and safe… more can be made to work but I'd rather just run more boost given the choice…

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Jay,
If your refering to the Spirngs I gave you It was not a V6. It was a 91RS Vert 305tbi F41 suspention.

Mark where do you need measurments from? I can get you a few.
Here is a quick snap shot of the center coil measured with a PN shot also. I can get a few measurements better 2morrow. I was in a hurry this morn.

Rear Spring. He has the Fronts already so he would have to mic em for you.

link to pic.
http://www.cecoatings.com/images/misc/SpringforJ.jpg
http://www.cecoatings.com/images/misc/DSC00298.JPG

bEtUr4dRustang

That's true. It is a V8, i just screwed up in the earlier post.

I'm going to get some dirty clothes on and run out to the car right now. I'll take a look at those front springs and probably pull off my rear wheels as well with the idea of polishing them inside where its nice and warm.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Those rear springs appear to be just like every other pair of rear springs that I've ever seen. Seems like all the cars pretty much get the same ones (even though they list softer and stiffer ones, I'm betting that they all add up to within 10# or so of each other). I don't even think that the v6 and I4 rears are any different, but I haven't had any in my hands either. You can usually have them out, cut and stuck back in in 15minutes if you know what you're doing…

89JYturbo

I have an 89 IROC-Z with a Twin Turbo 5.7 TPI. I used turbos very similar to the ones listed. They are junkyard turbos I purchased off eBay and came off of late 80s volvos. They have a .48 turbine (exhaust side) A/R and a .42 compressor A/R. The Saab turbos will acually mount to the manifold easier than my volvo turbos because volvo used a specific flange. I modified my original manifolds by cutting off and plugging the rear outlet port. I then cut a hole in the front top of the manifold and welded on mounting pedestals. My turbos sit just atop the front corner of each valve cover- It looks very cool. For the intake, I custom made all the piping and mounted two intercoolers just in front of each wheel (angled forward). I used junkyard 89 Ford probe GT intercoolers.

I run the turbos with the waste gate set at the stock Volvo setting, which gives approx 6-7 PSI boost. My best quarter was 12.4@117 on drag radials (1.9 60 ft), in cool air.

What surprises most people about my set-up is that the motor is stock from the throttle body down. I removed the valve covers only to paint them. Running stock head gaskets, bearings, heads, and cast pistons. Factory rated compression is 9.3 to 1. Everyone I talked to said my compression is too high and the cast pistons will never hold up. I have driven this car a year after the install with no mechanical problems- yet. I know I'm playing with fire running this combo, but at the time I put this together I didn't have the funds for a serious engine biuld. I just stay conservative on timing, make sure there is enough fuel, and drive!

The problem I have now though, is that if I want to get real serious, I will need to upgrade the turbos- they are just enough as it is. My power band starts to fall off at 4500rpm. I dont know if its because of the TPI intake, or restriction from the small turbine housings, or a combination of both. RWH=327 at 4400, torqe= 471 at 3300. As you can see, low RPM power will rival a decent big block, but I lack high RPM performance (turbos fully spool at 2000rpm). But it is fun to drive, sounds great (ricers don't know what to think when an old camaro has a blow-off valve!), is very unique (at least around my area), and best of all, cost less than a lesser performing supercharger kit.

If you would like some pics, feel free to email me.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Verry nice setup.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I'm curious… what are you using for engine management/fuel enrichment?

WRT to the combination and "playing with fire" I don't think you're in that bad a place. There are plenty of TPI engines running around with that much supercharged boost without an intercooler, and due to the slightly lower adiabatic efficiency they should be more prone to detonation and resultant problems then you are.

Any other interesting changes/upgrades?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I had another thought re-reading your description… I'd bet that the turbos aren't why you're dieing up top… If you're getting similar drivetrain losses with that 6 speed as the 4th gen cars see, you should be topping out with as much as 50hp more or so at the wheels. I'd bet that it's the heads (pretty much the reason why they seem to fall flat over about 4600 NA).

25thanniversary

will the te04h work on a 305?

89JYturbo

I use an MSD 6AL and BTM (Boost timing master) with one heat range cooler plugs for the ignition. For fuel I use a Vortech T-Rex 50/70 fuel pump, Ford(gasp!) SVO injectors 24lbhr, and a Vortech super FMU. To aid in tuning I have a digital A/F ratio gauge that displays O2 sensor output (0-1 volt, .45v is 14.7 approx- I know it is not very accurate, esp on the extreme rich or lean mixtures). I run a stock computer and chip.

I agree that it is probably the stock motor limiting the RPM curve. I guess just adding boost doesn't move the power band, it just adds TQ and HP in the same range as an NA application.