86trbota

Dart says it's a stock replacement because All the stock accessories, cam, heads, lifters, stock fuel pump will bolt on to the block. If you don't think they are stronger than a stock sbc go do a little research and see how many guys are going fast with these and you are arguing with 2 of them here. A 4500lb truck is going 8.90with this block you think a stock sbc will do that for very long? Nope because he already broke a main cap on one.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

What is stronger, than an equally prepped stock block?

It's not made of a special alloy blend, as the other Dart blocks are. I spent an hour reading the specs on their entire block line. It doesn't even look like the SHP gets billet caps, just normal steel caps.

What makes it stronger?

-- Joe

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

there is differences in the blends of alloys. between stock blocks, chinese blocks, shp, and little m blocks. also, there is more material in more important places. also, you can get an shp block with billet caps if you want. there is tons of racers in the 8's running that block with no issues.
the LS will have head lifting issues around 13-1400hp usually.

but to really blow your mind, there is an LT1 block out there that was proven to around 1900 crank hp. not a new LT1, im talking optispark LT1.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Not going to debate this further. Just talk to experienced machine shop engine builders, they will explain

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I owned an engine shop for 10 years hahaha.

I'll call Dart later today, I think my account is still active with them, and have a conversation about their entry level SHP stuff.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I agree with the different alloys, but the SHP doesn't appear to have any of those features according to Darts website. The other blocks do.

The "SHP PRO" has billet caps, but also has a BBC cam bore.

I'm not as familiar with the LS stuff, I just know of a lot of builds that have made 1500+ hp with stock sourced blocks.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Dude listen, i dont care that you owned a shop. That doesnt make you knowledgable on the subject. Several other engine builders/machinist on various forums have tested the chemical composition of the dart shp, the dart little m, and the chinese pbm knock off blocks, and it can be seen that the shp does contain alittle more nickel and other materials that are higher in concentration than oem blocks and the china block. The little m is a hell of alot harder and stronger

If you would browse the internet long enough, and i have for 10 years, and visit the tracks, you'd see what guys get away with on stock blocks and what guys have done on shp blocks.

Dart wont say it is a 1000 hp block because how many sales would they make on the little m and little m sportsman!? Visit the dart forum board and you'll see some dart representatives will state 800-1000 hp is doable in the shp.

I dont know why you feel the need to argue this

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Fine, Link me to those tests.

The alloy compesition of OEM blocks differ between casting numbers. For example, I have a high nickel mercruiser block in my shop right now that may or may not contain more nickel than the SHP block.

But jumping up and down saying something is better doesn't make it so. Again, a link to technical specs analyzed by a lab.

10 years? You young guys

Of course it's doable. I'm not debating that.


Because as an engineer, and I know you are an engineer too, I don't like when people post opinions as facts with no supporting data. I'm not really arguing with you, per say, I'm casting doubt that the mains and metallurgic composition of the SHP block is superior to a equal OEM block. (i.e, a 94-2004 marine casting). Now if you had cited that it has a thicker deck and less prone to cracking, I'd agree with you. But I'm talking about the actual strength of the block itself, specifically the lower end.

I'm not comparing the SHP blocks to every mexican core shift OEM block out there. I think you and I, and every other engine builder knows which casting numbers and date codes are the 'Good' OEM blocks.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I am actual living proof! Charlie too! Hundreds off guys running them.This is the problem with paper pencil pushing engineers. Trust their documents and paper calcs and never get in the field to do work and see results!

Dart wont claim higher because it hurts sales in other blocks and then when people bitch when they do break at higher powers, dart would have to warrant their claims. They dont wanna do that

I say 10 yrs because block has only been out about 10 yrs

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...ck-comparison/

Dart VS. Chinablock Metallurgy and Brinell Numbers...FACTS inside
So you may have noticed a certain Chinablock fanboy spouting off lately, bumping YEARS old threads and such pimping the Chinese blocks and talking massive amounts of **** regarding the Dart blocks. I did a little investigating, being a Machinist I have been curious about composition and Brinell numbers surrounding the Dart SHP and the Chinese blocks, as said fanboy claims, and I quote, "cast with the same OE type gray iron" and "thicker and heavier casting than the Dart SHP", I found some real world numbers regarding composition and Brinell hardness as tested.

As you know, some of the key ingredients in cast iron which give strength are Nickel, Molybdenum and Copper. The numbers are as follow:


The Little-M nickel content is 0.149, Molybdenum 0.211, Copper 0.404

Dart SHP Nickel content is 0.071, Molybdenum .016, Copper 0.283

Chinablock Nickel content is 0.005, Molybdenum 0.005, Copper 0.020

Regarding the Brinell hardness, the testing was done using the Rockwell B scale and then converted to Brinell numbers.

Dart SHP tested at 190HB and the Chinablock came in at 107HB.

All testing was performed by Leo at R&L Engines in Dover, New Hamphire. "
http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20092

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Let's ignore the "rating", and focus on what makes the SHP block 'better'.

I know nothing of "Chinablock" I've been using the same 3 casting numbers since the early 90s. I almost bought a SHP block once, but then the prices went up and it didn't make sense.

Those guys are local. I've actually never stopped in R&L, I'll have to swing by sometime.

Thank you for those numbers. Now I'll have to dig up my old Smokey Yurnick notes on how the OE castings tested out, including the Marine stuff.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I cant find the info on stock blocks but the article above points out the shp has thicker bores and decks and is thicker in the main webbing. Its splayed bolts tie into the webbing differently it seems than a converted oem splayed setup. Its stronger this way. Drag racing performance results agree

skinny z

This interesting.
What of the venerable"010" blocks that have been both coveted and maligned over the years? Supposedly the "010" referring to the nickel content of the cast iron . A point which has been disputed by builders and forum posters for years.
I'd like to know what Mr Yunick had to say about that.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Need someone to test the metallurgy but builders have claimed some of those 010 and 010/020 blocks have shown reduced wear patterns after race seasons in high wear applications such as dirt track/circle track. So there may be something to it

China block example has terrible metallurgy and is softer. Machinists have noted the difference with tooling build up after honing a china block vs a hard little m for instance

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Are these chinese blocks like dart clones or something? I've never seen one.

The 010 and 010/020 supposedly indicate nickel and tin content. A 2 bolt main high nickel block with splayed caps is quite strong.

They were used in marine applications, because unlike a car a boat holds 5200 RPM for hours and hours and hours.

A race car runs for 30 seconds and then cools down, and is often rebuilt every season haha.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yes it was a dart clone but i think dart may have done something about it, believe pbm was the importer/seller here in states. I'd have to read up on it

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i thought the 010 was just the numbers cast into the good blocks... and thats just the "identifier". many or most of the 010 blocks were 4 bolt mains. i have 2 of them, and as far as i know, most people call it quits around 1k hp. caps will be moving around at that point to my understanding. billet caps and half fill will let you push them a bit higher, but the machining costs and parts costs make the SHP block the better decision.

project89

iTrader: (1)

from what we have seen guys do with stock gen 1 blocks , i dont think the shp block is at all that much stronger

look at what a few guys like marty have done with factory 2 bolt blocks let alone 4 bolt blocks, niether is strong enough for what orr is doing though

the LS block is a good bit stronger but not 2k hp strong

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

where did you see a stock gen1 block break and where did you see an shp break?

project89

iTrader: (1)

ive seen stock gen1 2 bolts at 800 to the tire , and 4 bolts at like u said 1k and slightly over depending on what they have done to them , ropm and power adder makes a pretty good difference in them as well.

ive seen a few cracked shp's that werent over much more then 1k and then theres others that live above that just fine

theres a thread over on yb about those china blocks that had some info in it but due to the trolls i couldnt really read threw the thread


i myself am done with gen1 small blocks when this motor gets wore out or blows up , im either doing a big block or an ls. i plan on running the crap out of my stuff this year , as its almost race season here and besdies swapping out the t76 for the s475 i really dont have anything to do on the car unlike last year

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

After doin more inspection to the mains and rod bearings we think it was detonating pretty hard for awhile.

This likely beat the hell out of the mains. Sooo.... Gotta decide to rebuild it and change efi to something with better knock sensing and monitoring inputs, and or also upgrade to little m. Budget wise i am leaning towards just getting it back together for now and pinning caps

Hell maybe even a half fill

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The 400 in my Firebird is a 2 bolt. I didn't do aftermarket splayed caps though. Before my machinest retired (Phil Miller, machinest + former drag racer from 1950s onward) he cautioned me not to go over 500hp. The block originally was going in a cruiser, but that car got sold and it sat on the stand for 2 years until I got the firebird as a roller.


As far as LSx blocks go, I know there is a LOT of turbo LSx motors in fox bodies and other cars on the turbo forums making well over 1,000 HP. They don't appear to be blowing up. Some of those guys are making 1500+, and I've heard of 2000hp dyno runs. I don't know what is done to the blocks, but I know it's just too easy to make over 1,000 hp on a stock 6.0. There is just so many documented example builds that I'm questioning why I'm still playing with SBC stuff..

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Block may hold the 1000 hp level easily. The problem is getting the oem 4 bolt cylinder heads to hold that pressure. Most start pushing water. Copper gaskets and oringed may help some. 1/2" studs as well.

My good friend has made 1100's whp on stock block i believe. Pushed 1 qrt of water a pass but survived.

Sbc does not have that problem but most oem blocks cant hold it.

I dont see any stock block 6.0's making over 1200. After that if its done, it aint stock block. May be filled, may have different studs, pinned caps, oringed etc who knows

Highest dyno i ever heard was 1300 hp on a stock oem bottom end.

My other buddy made 1053 whp on a stock internal 6.0 L92 motor. Different bearings and rings but oem crank and rods they claim. L92 heads. It did not push water

For 1000 hp or less a lsx is hard to beat. For big numbers above that you really do need to go lsx block with 6 bolt heads. At that point cost is same as sbc

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

On Speedtalk forums this was talked about, tested and disproved.
No "high nickel" blocks.

Take it how ya want. To me, some blocks are just stronger than others due to production.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i never really found many blocks breaking of any type. mainly just caps moving around. i remember reading one old timer talking about his experiences with blocks in his nitro funnycar. he said he had run stock blocks all through the 70's/80's and then moved into aftermarket blocks. said he had cap movements on pretty much all of them, and was making boatloads of power, especially considering the stock blocks he had run. (im talking like 1500+) ill see if i can find it... was on yellowbullet.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

on the 6.0, i know of one guy that made 1300-1500? with an unfilled block as a 408. but he was doing some things to keep it alive, such as pulling boost and timing down track, and he eventually cracked a cylinder. Hotrod did a writup on it. look for tim reed's pinto. went 7.70's @ 178 or so at 3100#.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

My buddy cracked the front main off on his oem 400 block. 468 whp all motor plus a 175 shot for like 3 yrs. ran 9.80's

Dropped the pan and the front main with webbing basically fell out. It was amazing it ran

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

yea, the 400s are pretty weak from what i've seen. i have heard of those things letting go, especially with nitrous.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The thread went astray, but lots of good info about blocks here.

How does the 1996-1998 vortec 5.7 truck 4-bolt blocks compare to other OEM GM blocks? Are they considered "mexican" coreshift blocks or are they decent?
Will they hold 700whp turbo all below 6500 rpm?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I would like to think modern casting tech is better but i have heard that one piece blocks are thinner in the lifter valley/cam tunnel webbing compared to older 2 pc blocks. BUT also heard mexico castings are not as good, they seem thinner or softer in areas. Thats all what i have read from various forums so take with grain of salt

I do believe however 700 whp thru a turbo build should hold if you have it setup with 4 bolt mains

project89

iTrader: (1)

orr if ur going to look into a new block my buddy has one of these laying around that is only rough machined

http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Perf...oductId=955893

hes had it for a few years and i dont think hes going to ever do anything with it i could ask him if he would be interested in parting with it if ur interested in it

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont want a raised cam block but thanks! I have to have this one checked out before i decide what to do. My buddy is selling a lil m based 406 motor that i am trying to convince to sell the shortblock only but shall see what he says

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It was "disproved" by a single poster saying it's not true, and like typical forum sheep, everyone believing him.

A number of GM foundry employees have been interviewed by book authors, magazines, etc and have all confirmed the 010/0120 behind the timing cover had to do with the formulation of the pour.


-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That brings up a point I hadn't considered.

What RPM are you 1000+hp guys turning?

With the little cam in my 412, it's out of steam by 5500 rpm.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

i hear ya if it wasnt raised cam, tall deck and took a special oil pan id prolly try to buy it from him for my car , supposedly thats one of the best blocks ever made

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Raised cam is for stroker clearance, right?

So what do they do extend the lifter bosses, and you run a longer timing chain and much shorter pushrod?

Sometimes I wonder if a 450+ cubic inch small block wouldn't make as much power, and be more tame than a boosted motor.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

yeah and also for the roller cam bearings , that block is made for building some serious stuff and large displacement

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Take it how you want to.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...+nickle+blocks

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I actually read the whole thread the other day. It was one guy, and he never posted again. No credentials, no scan of the lab results. Just his typing.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Tall deck and raised cam allows for longer stroke and longer rod to maintain good rod/stroke ratio. With that higher cam position for the needed rod to cam clearance

I'd love to do that and run a good 3.875 stroke with a 6-6.125 rod but the efi connection 24x ring timing cover wont work. Unless they make a raised cam timing cover but i dont think they do and never will. I'd have to change efi ignition, which i likely am now that i know the knock system dont work lol. I still wanna keep it 24-58x and coil packs

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Get a megasquirt






(sorry couldn't help it)



-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

To be honest been talking to a few people and strongly considering trying ms3 pro

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've not used one, it's a bit more advanced than my MS2 and also a bit more expensive. But if you wanna do full v8 sequential injection and COP ignition, it's the way to go.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

well u can do just the ms3 , or the ms3 + the 3x , if ur going to spend the money on it though the full system is deff the way to go

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont wanna mess with any diy stuff. I dont wanna have to build electronics 1200$ for a complete compact box, its a deal compared to everything else

project89

iTrader: (1)

yeah i missed the part were u said ms3 pro i onkly saw the ms3 part which made me think u were looking at the standard ms3/3x system

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That is what turned me off to MS for years, the whole assembly part. That's why I went with an assembled Microsquirt. All I had to solder together was the IAC circuit.

MS3PRO is really nice. You will be happy with it.

-- Joe

skinny z

I remember reading the post on the 010 meaning nothing and have read dozens of reports that say it means something. One thing for sure, GM didn't cast those numbers into the block just for something to do....

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

most all blocks have numbers cast into them.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

According to the 010 020 casting theorys, I have seen "high nickel" 307 blocks.
Makes perfect sense I guess.

Here is a interesting read, just more typing tho. Again, take it how you want
http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10896

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Post #10 and #11. The dude didn't realize everyone was talking about the numbers behind the timing cover, then backtracked slightly.

"What you wrote was how it was supposed to be. But once it was put through the system, engineering realized that their intent could not be efficiently tracked. So the plan was abandoned, but it would have been too costly to rework all the patterns in the core machines, so those were left alone.

When engineering originally developed the plan, they needed a way to identify the metallurgy after the block was poured, thus the fabled "stamp" But engineering soon realized that the same block part number could posess one of 3 different mettalurgical blends. Because of this, it was near impossible to trace or efficiently logistically locate castings from pourtime to end customer use, as well as service parts orders.

So it was abandoned, because with the original idea, you wouldn't be able to call any GM parts office & locate a "nickel 010 block", because there was not a specific part number associated with it. Parts are organized by part numbers, not core stamps."

I call BS, and here is why. Gm developed this "plan" to identify the metallurgical blends, yet supposedly abandoned it. IT wouldn't make sense for GM to continue to cast the numbers on the front of just some of the blocks.. I don't buy the whole "rework the pattern thing".

But beyond that, the fact that GM does make different mixes and keep track of the nickel content in some blocks means obviously some GM blocks are better than others.

But anyway. I think this horse has been beat enough.

-- Joe