Pablo

iTrader: (1)

My latest handy work. I won't say it's pretty but its starting to look like it means business.






plus a new hood (Jerry's old hood) for 40 lbs off the front up high. I probably should throw some black primer on it to make the car a uniform shade of ugly.



Tubs are done btw. I still need to weld in the cross bar on the cage but I want to wait till I get my race seats in to determine the proper height.

The car is officially drivable but I need a longer panhard rod than what came from spohn. I could also stand to reinforce my body side PHB lowering bracket that I welded in.

Parts on hand that are going in next: New (old) steering wheel and the Dana 44. I'll be fixing the gaping hole in the trunk when I swap out the rear. I just need to go to the junkyard to cut out the same section. I really hate the junkyard though. The place is full of thieves.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

nice did you build that cage your self or buy pre made material like summit or jegs?? and is the car going to be kept fully gutted?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Thanks, the only thing done for me was the bends in the main hoop. Getting the angles and notches right was a pita at first but I got the hang of it. I'm really happy with how the floor plates turned out. My overhead welds could be a lot better though.

The car will most likely remain gutted. In a way I want the interior just so ppl don't see the int. And think OMG that's a race car!

Hope to be done soon

Grey Goose

Nicely done! That thing is going to be a monster

Guest

I for one can't wait to see it. You are doing something I think most of us would dream of doing but can't with daily drivers....and funds sometimes too

Since you are not thinking of replacing interior panels (race car look ), might I suggest an idea that I would do but for some reason I never see anyone else ever do. I copied and pasted one of your pics where with my experience I think the cage would benefit the chassis structure much better if it were tied in to the B pillars with plates just as it is tied to the floor. Of course I would not weld things underside of painted surfaces, so I would think the thincker struture of the B pillars would be perfect for plating. All cages have flex within the upper body and roofline. This would tie the two structures together and make the chassis much more ridgid in my opinion? I am welcome to thoughts and critism on this- I always wonder why I never see this.

injdinjn

A guy buys a torch and some tubing and goes nuts.

Looks good Pablo, with a driver it should turn some good numbers

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

i always wondered that as well .. that would keep a car staying solid lol especially for the t top guys.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

You know I thought about that. In reading the rules for nasa/scca for roll cages, at least one of them (maybe both) directly state that the cage cannot touch the body anywhere except for the 6 mounting points specified. I was considering gusseting the cage up the sides against the inner body skin and calling it part of the mounting point. The mounting point cannot be more than 120 sq inches so I figure that would stay legal on that ground. I don't know though, seems like kind of a grey area. Whats stopping someone from running a gusset all the way around the hoop? If that was legal then I dont think they would have said it can only touch the mounting points. I'll have to read the rules more closely.

As it stands the cage has to be a huge improvement over the stock structure. I've triangulated the stresses and stiffened the weakest part of the car. The rear suspension is now transferring load all the way up to my forward mounting plates

Guest

Some rules make no sense to me unless they do look at it as a favorable advantage- but then again for guys that can't weld compared to those that can? I guess sky would be the unfair limit to total structure merging of the cage and body.

As for safety- it would be far better keeping as many interior parts of the cockpit together from doing bodily damge in a severe ......
.... but then thinking further that maybe the integrity of the cage may be breached if the car were torn apart and pulled the cage apart with it, where as the cage being internally separate will not be so ridgid as to break and remain not only a double layer of safety barrier but also allow for an outer body crumple zone----who knows. Both ways look like valid points to me now that I think of it more. I think tied together is best for no impact lateral structure for handling, yet separate is best for inpact crumple zone. Again, Would like to her others thoughts on this. I respect Chris's imput on structure and design.

cuisinartvette

Wow thats a lot of work very nice. Tried my hand at welding and just dont have it, looks like someone sneezed slag all over lol.

I say put a full interior in it and leave the cage black for the sleeper effect.

injdinjn

To me that would make sense on a frame car, but not a uni-body. The advantage for racers is it makes it easier to change body panels if they are not welded to the cage. Or if you need to rip it open to get someone out.

Lots of rules were written so long ago no that no one today knows the history of the rule.

Guest

Your analysis is probably correct. The cage is always intended to be secondary, allow the car outside to collapse and fold up (absorb energy) and keep the cage itself intact as much as possible. That may be why cages are generally kept isolated aside of the connections on the floor. No doubts that tying it into the car at as many points as possible will make the entire structure stiffer. The way any element in a structure is designed the "unsupported" length is what is used to determine the internal stresses. Shorter elements are always less stressed, as they transfer energy to somewhere else... generally considered to be the Earth and to be infinitely strong. Not true in reality of course (or in this case), but thats the generalization. With multiple connection points, it would be more like a built up section (imagine two L brackets connected together back to back, I'm sure you've seen that many times) and make the entire structure that much stiffer overall.

If there were not rules in the way, I'd connect the rear shock/spring tower to the rear LCA mounts, maybe in an X fashion. I'm sure with that cage not much is going to go anywhere now, but if anything feels soft in back... go there first.

Guest

I dont know how you get in and out of these cars, but the sill plate with no cover is NOT FRIENDLY in these cars. I would think you'll at least want that, and maybe the rear 1/4 as well. Throw in some lightweight carpeting (it is really flimsy, thin, and forms well) and you're good to go.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Thanks. I started with a small stick welder not too long ago (maybe a year ago) and once you are able to lay a bead with a stick welder, using a mig is cake. The neat thing about mig (gmaw actually) is that there is no slag It takes a lot more practice to make them look pretty but I think making it strong is not very hard at all when you know the basics of what is going on. The hardest part is welding from an awkward position like some of the welds in the car. That is what gives me a really hard time.

I'll be painting the cage satin black at a minimum. I'm still debating about the interior but leaning toward leaving it out just because it will be a pita to put back in. But I do agree with you about the sleeper effect. For some reason, once you remove an interior, people tend to automatically use that as an excuse as to why your car is fast. The usual line is something like: "Yeah he beat me, but look at his car! It doesnt even have an interior!" as if that really makes it faster.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Well since I welded the doors shut I just jump through the window


Are you referring to that pinch welded seam down there? With the door bar in the way its not really accessable

Guest

Yes, that is what I was referring to. I realize because of the door bar its in a way partly blocked, but the edge there is unfinished (hey, they were covering it) and mine has reached out and grabbed my pants as I swung my foot across the sill near the front of the door. If the doors are really welded shut (did you really???) then I can see it being a non issue.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

hahaha, no I didn't really weld the doors shut.
The door bar extends all the way to the front and makes it pretty much impossible to hit the door sill like that. I agree its a pretty sharp edge though.


Hopefully this weekend I will have at least one, hopefully two, kirkey race seats and harnesses to put in. Seam seal the other tub, paint the cage, put the center console back in at least

After that, I'll have to fix the hole in the trunk, put in the new rear, install the headers and 3 inch exhaust I have sitting here, put in a new steering wheel, etc etc.. Im also considering going to a performer RPM and the 650 dbl pumper i have here

I have a ton of work to do but no time. Anyone want to help? I can offer food and/or booze and maybe some parts in trade. I want to get this car done already.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Update:
I've been busy, I painted the roll cage, put in a new steering wheel, clearanced the front fenders, installed an aluminum PHB, installed a sparco on the passenger side (haven't installed the driverside), shaved a pound here and a pound there

and then....

I FINALLY took the car out for a quick spirited drive. First impressions: I think I can sell the technology to Formula 1.

The wide front tires have definitely made the car darty. Either it was that or setting my alignment to 0 toe when I started all this, or it was moving the rear axle forward 1.25".
Without an interior and with the cage really solidifying the car, the feeling is pretty raw.
I hit some corners at ridiculous speed and the grip is unbelievable. The car also responds to steering inputs very quickly so it's going to take some getting used to.

I'm very close to being ready for time attack. Just a few things left to do, waiting on parts.

How does adams in two weeks sound? Hope to see some other thirdgens there.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

post some footage! lol

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Some new pics before a drive today. I need to re-align it, but it's a blast to drive.

injdinjn

Needs wax

mightymaro94

its coming together ... keep up the good work and keep us posted

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

It's just the lighting

89 TA

He had like 5 coats of clear, but it just couldnt handle all them g's.

Guest

An alignment will help. Are you still using stock rubber bushings? I cant remember what you have in there.

The car looks pretty good. Going to roll it and make it all pretty?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Poly up front (spherical upper strut mounts) and all heim joints in the back.

The Buick is the last car I'll ever paint. Painting a car is the most miserable thing you can do on a car. I might prep it and have someone else paint it but thats it.

Guest

Yea, its not a real fun task to undertake.

I was hoping you'd say rubber... with fat tires, rubber bushings can do weird things that the factory didnt intend. With poly in there, thats a non issue. I hope its just an alignment thing. They can be kind of sensitive when everything is tight, but it should have a fairly decent on center feel as well. Old thirdgens are very sloppy in the column, box, and linkage and lose any of the dartiness these cars had new. It may just be normal. Ever driven any really low mileage thirdgens with 16's?

injdinjn

Final paint is the easy part. The PITA is proper prep.

FYI If you prep a vehicle no one will guarantee the paint for anything other than runs. That's how I ended up painting my first vehicle

TxTtopZ

Is this going to be an effort like the 1987 Time Attack Z28? Totally bad ***!

Guest

Pablo, you need to find a way to get those tires tucked in more. That added extra width is going to hurt you at time attack in those tight little transitions. THat car will do much better only on a track like Willow Springs. You try and fit that thing through that time attack its like trying to drive my old wide truck through those cones on that back straight. The Miata's go striaght through it where the wider you are you will have to slow and tranverse it at a greater turn angle= hurts time

Build shorter A-arms and re-engineer the upper strut mounts towers inward also- then shorten the rear axle more and get the track width down or is is not going to bew a god time attack car for any shot at a record. Not a bash, just stating what I see.

injdinjn

Good advise as usual Dean.

Should only cost about $3-4K to do all that

Thats the trouble with racing - the $$$$$.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I have the room to potentially bring the rear tires inboard an inch per side, that is not a problem. The problem is up front, the steering knuckle is the deal breaker. I can fix the problem by getting 18" outer shells and tires for my front wheels but that is going to add up to a lot of money esp. considering that I have several extra 315/17s. Id like to burn through those before I step the size up. In the end we are talking about a 2" reduction in track width. Do you think that is enough to make a big difference?

I'm also looking more and more at running c prepared which means I can go for more weight reduction so I'm gonna focus on that in the meantime

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

By the way, the last picture makes the rear tires look like they are sticking out more than they are. In actuality, they stick out less than the front.

and to add to the last post, while I may lose a little in track width, I still stand to gain a whole lot in adhesion. I should take a picture of this, but I have a stack of the 315/335 combo next to a stack of the SS wheels 245/275 combo and the difference in height is just barely less than the entire last 315. Its like I added an entire tire's worth of rubber to the car. Granted, these are heat cycled R6s vs Victoracers, the R6s will want more heat in them to work well even as new so its not ideal for adams. Really, I'd like to get on a set of A6s if there was a record to try and set.

The only spot in adams time attack where I see the width becoming a real issue is with the tires on the straightaway. Yes its less than ideal but I would be quite surprised if the extra width actually slowed the car down lap time wise. As it stands I ran a 47.7 on the previous wheels and tires and the fastest time I've ever seen on that track config was in a youtube vid of a guy doing a 45.xx. We'll see what happens. I think the tires being heat cycled R6s may lose me more time than the track width but there's no way to know really. I'm pretty confident I'll smash my previous lap time as it is, and if not, well that just means more tweaks.

Guest

It would be major, but to do it correctly and keep the original cars track width with those monster tires would require not only a shorter a-arm, but also a custom bracketed strut with a new inclination angle of the spindle to get the proper scrub radius as well as move the strut tower in a tad (THis would be major as well as fabricating the a-arm.) the tierods could be shortened easily. Spring rate might have to be changed but I think it would be very close leverage still. Swaybar would have to be custom also.

That extra track width will hurt in overall scrub radius as well as just plain fitting on the course. As stated though, you have alot of extra tire width for traction, you are still loosing agility.

Here's a basic sketch showing ALOT of work needed to get those tires inward though- Like Tom says $$$$$- Not worth it unless you are really dedicated and have lots of money to play with- I know I don't.

camaromike222

I saw this monster in person this past weekend and I have to say, WOW! Those tires are behemoths, fron and rear. The whole car is just so well put together. After talking to Pablo about the car you can tell he knows his stuff. Nicely done, Pablo, and thanks again for the hood, my friend.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

u can always sell those wheels and find different wheels with the right offset etc for better fitment. doesn't look bad at all though. but im guessing you scored a deal on those wheels

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Unfortunately, getting different wheels would make no difference. I am already at the maximum amount of backspacing that a thirdgen will allow. I'm literally less than a half inch away from hitting the strut and steering knuckle. In plain words; I have the best possible fit that a 315/17 can do on the front of a thirdgen. I can bring the rears in more but it would look funny with the fronts sticking out more than the rears.

The only option as far as wheels are concerned is to get a stepped outer shell for my wheels (these wheels are 3 piece) and run an 18 inch wheel/tire which I might do in the future. I don't think this will give me much breathing room, maybe 1 inch at most. You can see what a stepped outer shell looks like if you look at my rear wheels, the centers are smaller than the front.

Really though, I don't think this track width issue is that big of a deal. Is it optimal? No, but take a look at pictures from the national championships for C Prepared for the last 10 years or more. A lot of the cars have a crazy amount of stick out. They look almost like an open wheel cars.

If i really wanted to get crazy and bring the wheel in, I think I would build some kind of offset mount for the strut and work on moving the strut tower further inward. That presents a whole other set of problems though because as it stands my drivers side strut mount is touching the brake master cylinder. So I'd have to go with a non power brake dual mc setup or something like that.

Right now I am a ways off of thinking about that. I have enough work cut out for me as it is. I still need to fix the hole in the rear deck, install the bump stops, install the headers, 3" exhaust, do the battery relocation, put in my G force harnesses, and ultra shield seat. These are just parts I have ready to go. I'm also thinking about putting in a 36/24 sway bar combo vs the z28 stuff, also have a "wonder" bar to put on.. the list goes on and on.
Considering that I can only work on the car on the weekends, and I work on it completely alone, it's going to take me a little bit to get it all done. I'm open to accepting volunteers though

I'd really like to have a serious CP car when I'm done.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

315s all around? What spacers are you using and what offsets?
Overall looks like a beast..what. suspension work is done to it?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

315s up front, 335s in the back. Rears are 17x12 with 8.75" backspacing and Im running 2" spacers for 6.75" total backspacing.
Fronts are 17x11 with 7.5" BS and with the 2" spacers it's 5.5" total BS.

Of course I had to minitub the rears. I'm running 250 lb rear springs, lowered panhard bar, aluminum phb with heim joints, aluminum LCAS with heim joints, poly sway bar bushings, stock sway bars, koni yelllows.
Up front I have poly bushings, howe tall ball joints, koni yellows, spohn spherical bearing upper strut mounts, 850ish springs, and probably a few more things Im leaving out.

Grey Goose

One hell of an amazing transformation Pablo, I can’t wait to see this beast on the track

irocdan

first of all nice job,2nd- great pic of the car in the garage, 3rd-with those tires sizes you are gonna have alot of meat on the ground. good luck with your project its gonna be a beast.