Grey Goose

injdinjn

whitedevilTA

Trust me, you don't want to underestimate Vetruck's vehicles.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

So that blue vette on the vid will eat not only ls3 vettes but the ls9 vette?
1/4 mile and roadcourse?

specs??

skinny z

That's hilarious!

Z28FAST1

Since you worship the TPI over an LS1, yeah I’m going to say you do need to get out more buddy. If you want to talk about LA Invasion, then maybe you could tell me what your TPI ran there….13’s? Or you can confirm that no fully modded TPI(H/C/I) has gone 11’s?

Not 500rwhp but over 400rwhp yes, in my driveway.

JMR

i beg to deffer, because it just now got interesting.

Grey Goose

It’s the same argument each and every time… Yes a highly modified TPI motor can put down 400rwhp, that’s been proven. However, the fabrication that needs to be done to achieve those numbers is not only technical but it’s expensive. Don, Allen, Kevin, and the rest of the ‘TPI’ boys have done amazingly well and achieved performance benchmarks never thought possible before. This is undeniable and it must be respected. Under no circumstances should a guy with 5K in his pocket, a stack of Summit and Jegs catalogues, and a can do attitude think that he is going to see these kinds of numbers with off the shelf goodies.

Been there, done that (off the shelf AFR 195’s, hogged out super ram, 52mm throttle body, lingenfelter 219, bone stock LO5 bottom end, 1 5/8 slp headers, hours of data logging and tuning) and it netted us a little over 350rwhp and a stack of 12.6X time slips at Fontana back in 2002-03. Mind you this is with 3 gallons of race fuel, completely stripped interior (less the drivers seat), borrowed fiberglass hood, and 3 ½ inch wide fronts and 10 inch wrinkle walls.

It wasn’t until a TPI base manifold surfaced that flowed 300+ cfm that we started to see HP numbers significantly increase. Strictly speaking about the multi-piece TPI system here, it is now approaching the ragged edge as far as air flow modifications are concerned. Amazing accomplishments but we’re getting pretty close to the wall as far as the traditional multi-piece TPI unit is concerned. Keep in mind that the $600 base manifold air flow modification only nets you 8-10HP.

However if that 8-10HP is the difference between 392-400HP or 12.07 to 11.99, you will spend it and it will be worth every penny…

Like I’ve said a million times… I respect both power plants. I there’s nothing better than watching two 3rd gens (one LSX power & one rocking a TPI injected gen 1) lined up and rowing gears next to each other. In the end it’s all about who gets thought the traps first, PERIOD!

With that said, may the best set up win

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

It appears that I am right around 1.4hp/cubic inch at this point. So with some further mods I might be able to get it up around 1.5hp/cubic inch. That I think will just about be the limit for my setup. To get more I would need bigger heads, a larger camshaft, more compression and more welding on my TPI. However IMHO at that point it no longer is a daily driver. I will have crossed the rubicon.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I don't underestimate anyones set up but when you come out saying you eat LS3 vettes for lunch and would beat a ZR1 vette 1/4 mile you damn well better have some proof to back it up other than your car going around a track in a vid that looks like it was taken in the 80's.

I already said I can't talk any smack since my set up is still in the works but then again I don't go around saying I'll beat this or that car. I have gained a LOT of automotive knowledge in my time around cars and know what most set ups are capable of. With that said, a 540 RWHP 327 is NOT a budget built motor unless you were sponsored or something and got it for free, and especially one capable of 8500 rpm since the entire bottom end would have to be pretty stout to take that kind of rpm. I wasn't born yesterday and I will refuse to believe someone unless they have some proof like I said.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

I dont worship anything, unlike the LS1 guys who think an LS1 is the ONLY engine worth running and everything else is trash. We simply take the engine we have, and make it the best we can. Same as you're doing, but with a different starting platform.

Yes, my best time at Fontana is a 13.20 something. My 12.80 was run at Carlsbad. I've never figured out Fontana's air, nor Famoso's air. I'm also much better as a tuner than I am as a driver.

Allen went 12.11 at the first LA Invasion in the cooler air. Then he got some new tires and a higher stall converter and went 12.09 in the hot air of last year. He's the fastest N/A TPI in our club right now. I'm definitely sure there are 11 second TPI's out there, all engine. There just arent any in our club right now. Allen will get there this year, as long as the weather is decent. Don and Vincent have a pretty good shot at it too.

The secret to TPI is just in shortening the runners. The secret to LS1's is in the heads. Otherwise LS1's are just a SBC with awesome 15* heads and huge ports. If AFR or Edelbrock or Trick Flow come out with some 15* street-legal heads for SBC's, the LS1's will lose their advantage. World Products has already come out with a standard SBC short-block that accepts LS1 heads.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

He posted the specs back in post #44. Go back and read it.

Dean *IS* a very damn good driver. And he'll tell you that every chance he gets.

Please dont make me lock this thread. Keep it civil, guys.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I heard somewhere (possibly even this thread) that all the LS1 is is a re-designed ford 351 windsor engine. After hearing this I got together with a good ford buddy of mine who was looking over my 5.3 and we confirmed that the firing order is IDENTICLE, the degree of the heads is very close if not identicle, and the exhaust ports are identicle. We did come to the conclusion however that the coilpacks are def a GM design since ford can't design a reliable coilpack worth a damn . Interesting concept though and it does make sense. I'd be really interested to read up a little more on this and do some research.

So I guess all in all, it seems an LSx is closer to a ford engine than it is to the SBC.

89rs454

SBC or an ls1 can't we all just get along? Anything can happen on the strip and street racing. Keep this feued going, this is a classic aurgeument.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

sounds like a race car engine that cant be driven in the street/ 5mpg? high octane?
but sounds and looks like a cool car. im a fbody guy and vette guy.

its a different 3g community here in so cal. and its very obvious.

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89rs454

**** it i'm getting one.

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cuisinartvette

Noones frowning on the Gen 1 just saying you take say that 327 and a 5.3lsx about the same ci do same mods and the LSx will waste the Gen 1 every single time, thats just reality. Fwiw my money is sunk in a Gen 1 and trying to scratch 600 hp...I guarantee if I did the same mods to the LSx same size/mods Id probably be making close to that at the tire rather than the crank..

Sure your Dads 327 was something impressive for its CI. Try driving something like that on the street, not fun for long anyway.

Been there done that.

They all got their place and everyone has thier budget. With that said I wouldnt build another Gen 1 its just easier to go quicker with the LSx platform and they are becoming super affordable as the market is flooded with them. Call up Chevy plunk down your 6-800 bux and walk out with a stout azz set of heads. Cant do that on a gen 1. Just an example.

Now to do something productive.

itsMikey

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

After reading your giant post and you actually explaining a few things rather than just coming on and insulting me I'll give you a little bit of credit but your 327 s not your "average" sbc that someone can just build in thier garage. You said yourself it was built by one of the most reputable SBC shops out there in the day and also back when people wanted to build SBC's none the less. And you like to make fun of my 5.3 yet thats the identicle motor you have built up in your vette?

Let me explain my build to you a little more so we are on the same page. The bottom end is a truck 5.3. The heads are off a 6.0 motor with 2.05 intake valves and I believe 1.6 or 1.7 exhaust valves.....don't remember the exact size off the top of my head. The camshaft and valvesprings are from the LS6 vette Z06 engine, as well as the intake set up and top end of the motor. This combo alone would be good for 340 or so RWHP with only 9.5:1 compression however I have 8.5:1 compression and a 76mm turbocharger going on. At somewhere around 15 PSI of boost I should make just shy of 600 RWHP and run somewhere in the 10's with a 3350 lbs car. Now this of course is all what I am expecting but I assure you the car will be done in a few months and I will be happy to post up my timeslips, dyno numbers, etc.

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Z28FAST1

Since you aren't an average driver, let me introduce you to Ranger...

Ranger C6 ZR1 Bone-Stock on Stock Tires--10.74 133.21
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woOqqfGtqHo

Ranger C6 Z06 11.02 Bone-Stock on Stock Tires

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct_RxkWp41g


A better (apples to apples )comparison SBC v. LSx


The LY6 is a 6.0 LQ4 shortblock with L92 rectangle port heads.
Thes engines can be had complete for about $1400. if you are installing in a truck, you should be all set with water pump and accy drive and oil pan.
You do not have to purchase heads or pistons/rods for this combo.
Install the spring /retainer setup reuse lifter and rockers. install some good .080 pushrods.
Shoot for 238ish at .050 on the intake with a 110LSA ICL of 106 and 8 degree split on the exhaust.
This setup did 9.80's at 137 in a 2900 lb car and is still cranking out 9's today in a "57 Corvette.
Peak power is 6800-7000....will last a long time..
Some friends have nicknamed it the "forever' engine, or at least until you want something different..
Oh and it will run fine on pump gas at 9.8/1 compression.
Dave NHRA ET# 183L

Price breakdown:

6.0 engine $1200(complete junkyard LY6, LQ4 engine)
cam/spring/retainers/pushrods $1000
ignition controller $300
Machine work $400 (mill heads/notch pistons/install springs)
ARP Rod bolts $80
HV oil pump/Double roller chain $250
Gaskets $100
Add headers and carburetion and I’ll say it goes toe to toe with your one-off build $/hp.

Another similar LS build with actual dyno numbers if you doubt the set-up:
Stock cube/ solid roller/ GMPP inatake with a accufab TB/Custom Cam's cam/ ported stock heads/ Stock crank/750 holley/ turn down headers
ENGINE DYNO
Max HP 609 @ 7200
Max TQ 484 @ 5400

^^^Look up Silvr98z28’s old build.

It's safe to say these builds are around $6-7k and don't require an obsolete intake manifold, race fuel, reving up to almost 9k rpm, magical heads from a prestigious builder.

Now you were referring to my build, no it will not run with your vette but my point in the build was to drive it comfortably and make competitive power to keep up with todays street cars. Just like you, I'm happy with my build. To each their own

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injdinjn

These threads make me laugh. Exc for the occasional technical info that crops up everyone is comparing grapes to grapefruit. Yeah they both have grape in the name, just like the SBC and LS have Chevy in them, but try and make wine from a grapefruit.

Making a guess from what I have read here and overheard, that 420+hp SBC TPI cost more than my my full loaded 86 GP did brand new. And correct me if I am wrong but I heard it's not even a GM block.

But any summit or GM crate motor ad will tell you that a STOCK gen1 will have less HP than a STOCK LS. So if you start with more you can, dollar for dollar, end up with more.

If you want HP go buy a keith black 460 or something similar.

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injdinjn

Had we built that car a couple of years later it would probably be a LS, but in 95-96 when that car was in the design/build stage gen1s were it. A couple of years later we put the AFRs and edlecrock intake on it. A lot of hours of research and some $$ were spent to get 335 rwhp way back then, but nothing that anyone couldn't buy.

To me a stock motor is better than one cobbled together with aftermarket parts. Those GM engineers spent a lot of time and money to get a reliable hp motor. So to me the factory setup is worth the few extra bucks to basically plug and play and not have to spend days at the track or dyno tuning and retuning and really never get it as efficient at every rpm/gear range.

IMissMy86TA

Yah, those moist people never have any know how or patience!

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injdinjn

Can't even get in out of the rain, right?

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Honestly my motor will probably be under what yours cost to build. I'll try to break it down as accurate as I can

800$ Complete truck 5.3 with 35k miles on it
200$ 6.0 heads (used) with 6kmiles on them
250$ Z06 cam and valvesprings (used) with around 8K miles on them
450$ Z06 intake, fuel rails, & FAST throttle body (used) with around 10k miles
800$ Turbonetics T76 & 44mm wastegate (used) with 3K miles on them
200$ Exhaust manifolds and piping to turbo
150$ F body oil pan and pickup

Now here are the parts I still need..

200$ Blow off valve
150$ intercooler
150$ piping to and from intercooler
150$ for the exhaust (will be making myself)
500$ (for anytihng extra like braided line and fittings)

So total comes to $4000. Even if you added ANOTHER $500 for ANYTHING I may have missed thats only $4500 for an engine that will produce over 600 HP at the flywheel, average 20 mpg around town with the 6 speed manual, and idle and drive like a stock corvette. Believe me I am all for bad *** SBC builds but dollar for dollar I would have never even dreamed of building a SBC with that kind of power for that price. Now all motor builds may be different but a turbo on a junkyard truck motor makes for a good and cheap high HP combo.

Z28FAST1

This is true, i still would like to know what the cost would be if I wanted to someone to build me a TPI motor that puts down 420rwhp


How about the 1000hp capable factory crank, 6 bolt mains, lighther aluminum blocks(at least 100 lbs), LSx lifters(high-rpm capable ), blocks designed with higher tolerances = better sealing, less leaks, etc., engines running reliably for 200k(giving toyota competition).


That's what hot-rodding is all about. 90% of the conversion/swaps involve used or junkyard motors. Not everyone can afford new parts on a college budget.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

1000 hp crank & six bolt mains: nice but not needed for most N/A builds.

Lighter aluminum blocks: Then why do most people ditch them for the iron truck blocks?

LSx lifters: These are nice, I'm gonna have to get a set for my rebuild.

Blocks designed with higher tolerances: Unless you get the ones that burn oil, have piston slap, or bend pushrods.

sailtexas186548

iTrader: (2)

don't forget a lot of LS stuff has 4 head bolts per cylinder, and many guys have to go to 6 per cylinder $$$ before they can really turn the boost up or they will lift heads like crazy. granted thats only when really making some power but still, a GEN-I has 5 bolts per head.

Also how many broken/cracked stock L98 cranks do you hear about? especially when put in high end, built short blocks. not a lot, I know for certain one has been reliably pushed to 850rwhp in a drag race car, and never broke then the motor was replaced with a big cube motor so AFAIK that crank is still fine.

Z28FAST1

I'm not even going to reply to your posts. You might censor what you don't like or anything that jeopardizes the integrity of the so-called 50 smog legal TPI builds. Public forums are supposed to be for discourse, although I don't completely agree with Vetrucks posts I would never delete his posts.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I guess I do too. We go to the track four times a week here, and I have never seen a naturally aspirated LS1 car drive in through tech, run a nine second pass, then drive back home, never, and the one's that do are normally power enhanced, or trailered in. I do however remember the Vette Doctors running their naturally aspirated L98's during the early 2000's, averaging low 12's in the quarter with their stock TPI setups, ported of course, with heads and cam. There was one guy who pulled an L98 out of a C4, worked the heads and cam, port matched everything, then dropped it into a much lighter Datsun 280Z and ran in the high tens, so the TPI is more than capable. This TPI vs LSX debate is senseless, because the LSX starts off with such an excellent platform already from the getgo, whereas the TPI had huge limitations from the factory, including it's prehistoric 02 correction....

Grey Goose

Conservatively... about 10-12K

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Z28Fast1: I'm sending you an email.

Mike: I think your price is a little high. No one has left Don's shop after paying a $10k bill.

thegooseman

You know why he deletes posts? Because its his job! This forum is for educational purposes about thirdgens.

"ThirdGen.org is the leading online resource for the Third Generation F-Body platform (1982-1992 Chevrolet Camaro and Pontiac Firebird). Founded in the mid-'90s, ThirdGen.org has focused on providing the best, tech-only, resource for the Third Generation F-Body".

That is from the Main page of this site. The fact that anybody gets to participate in any sort of public discourse with one another is a privlage and not a right of this site. I am so irritated that whenever I come on here that I see these rants of the same argument over and over again. I come here to learn and not to read some crappy version of a soap opera. Every time there are one of these flame wars, an opportunity for me or anyone else to learn is taken away. And that is not fair. Everyones problem here is everything is taken personally. We all need to stop bringing personal issues to every thread.

So when Kevin deletes those post, he is maintaining the information of the thread. It is why he is a moderator. I don't care if you like the guy or not. There is no off topic section on this site. And whether you want to believe it or not, the majority of these posts are off topic rants. Go to LS1tech.com or sc3g.org if you want to do that. They have sections for it.

And before someone comes in and says the southern section is just a open public thread, remember it is to allow the thirdgen community of southern ca to be able to communicate and organize events. NOT to bash one another.

Grey Goose

Kevin I'm not talking about the average build that comes out of your dad's shop. I am specifically referencing Allen's current combination and what it would cost for someone in another state to replicate it. Its almost impossible to put an accurate number on some of the combinations that have come out of your dads shop because of all of the part swapping and bartering that goes on amongst the customer base (at one time myself included) its a great way to save money and in most cases you know exactly what you're getting because you've either lined up next to it at the track or have watched it go down the track.

My reply is directed to someone outside of the 'circle' that doesn't have the benefit of being local and take advantage of the unique used parts market we have here. This is to the guy with a stack of printed posts from TGO that wants to build the exact same 420HP combo (block, custom crank, custom cam, heads, custom intake components, machine work, welding, assembly, tuning, etc.).

If it wasn't for Allen 'Daddy Deep Pockets' willingness to take a path less traveled and try thing that clearly went against conventional wisdom and Jerry's mastery in fabrication we'd be stuck in a 12.50 holding pattern

BlackMamba

iTrader: (6)

I agree with you on what you posted
One thing I don't get why this war is going on... Everyone in this forum is driving a thirdgen (of course) but why does it matter what engine you have under the hood.. I have seen a few LSX car and wow they look really nice and also I seen some moded TPI car and I have to say the same about them very nice set up
I wish I could of had one of those setup in my camaro but since my carbwas built before FI was introduce to the F Bodies I am really happy with my carb set up...
I think that every owner of their f bodies can do what ever they want to do to their car as the owner wishes
What ever happen to the good old days that the f bodies community would meet up, hang out, chill, enjoy the day and not having any problem among themselves just because of the engine they got under the hood
I know that they are car clubs that are doing that and I am happy that they do (meeting up and showing of their powerplant in their car no matter what they go)

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

I sat down this morning and jotted down a few numbers myself.
If a person has a car and modest parts already and can do there own modding on some parts, it can be done for around $6000 to get what I have.
That is with new parts but some used.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

That's very true, Mike. We've gotten quotes of anywhere from $600 to $2000 to do the port work to the manifold and runners that Jerry engineered.

When we did the 3-intake swap on my engine in 2009, I would have been PISSED if I upgraded the heads and cam on my engine and only gained 3 RWHP due to the long tube runners. TPI engines made a huge stride forward when we met Jerry.

Grey Goose

Agreed, however I'm specifically talking about a guy with an average amount of mechanical moxie (brakes, tune ups, header install, rear end swap etc.) That is looking to replicate Allen's 420HP set up line item for line item. You will find that my numbers are indeed conservative but then again look at who we are talking about... Allen has deep pockets and isn't inclined to employ used parts. He has a top shelf build and it works. It's because of his/your collective research and development that the 400HP TPI has been achieved. Again specifically talking bout his current motor only.

I couldn't agree more, as well as his vast knowledge in suspension systems. Jerry is an asset to the 3rd gen community.

Z28FAST1

Thanks, for coming in to the rescue with your knowledge but I know how to read and I know what tgo.org stands for. I've made contributions to this site and help out numerous members(PM's) with questions on a weekly basis.

These "wars" are intended to be technical info so that members can judge for themselves. I've never received so much as a warning on any of the forums I frequent because I watch what I say and when I call someone out on their antics, I use their own words in quotes.

It's my opinion that Kevin uses his mod authority to delete some technical posts whenever he doesn't see them favorable to his beliefs which has a chilling effect on discourse.

I know CA has strict smog laws(that I hate) but the TPI guys put down LSx and carb set-ups while claiming they are are "50 state legal." Everyone has their "ways" of passing smog, some mess with EO numbers, others pay under the table, and I have back in my stock manifolds come smog time. All I know is that someone questioned their smog compliant claim and it was censored. I got a few email updates then, when I went to see the thread, everything was magically gone. I'm guessing it got ugly but I know some technical info was deleted. I don't care how the high HP TPI's pass smog without CARB compliant headers and other parts, just don't make claims of being 50-state legal when pointing it out as a flaw in other builds.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"just don't make claims of being 50-state legal when pointing it out as a flaw in other builds"

I don't think anyone is doing that. What I have seen posted is you "normally" need to go to a referee to get the car certified when dropping in an LSX motor in California. If someone has another way of doing it I am all for it. Other states have more relaxed smog rules and that is the reason for bringing it up. For instance long tube headers are not allowed if you want to pass smog.

injdinjn

The referee is a extra step one time (hopefully). Same as if you went from TBI to TPI.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Flame wars are never technical in nature. They're disrespectful and detract from this site and its information. TPI vs LSx discussions are fine, as long as you stick to discussing the topic and not the poster.

I went back over the posts I deleted, and there was no technical info in them. Only insults and slams intended to discredit or insult members of this forum and their accomplishments. Everyone is welcome to post their opinion, but if your intent is to bash, discredit, or humiliate someone, expect your post to be deleted by myself, Lon, or JT. I also deleted posts that were praising our results, as they also contained part of the flames.

I've never said my engine is 50-state legal, only that it passes the emissions test as given by a California test-only station. I drive it to the test in its everyday configuration, without swapping parts or changing anything specifically for the test.
I have never put down the LSx engine or think it is inferior to TPI. All I have said is the cost to purchase, install, fabricate, and smog-referee an LSx swap into a thirdgen makes sticking with TPI a better choice, in my opinion. I have seen several LS1 owners post they think TPI is inferior, outdated, and will NEVER be as good as an LS1 engine. Our dyno results say otherwise, but you cant change everyone's opinion.

thegooseman

Thanks for the smack on the head. That was cute.

Obviously you can read because we are having this discussion right now through text, but there are things you fail to comprehend. You took what I said personally, and the ironic thing is that you underlined it in my quote. My response was to anyone that partakes in speaking down on one another. Your last response is what pushed me over the edge from reading everyones responses. It was not a direct shot on you.

I can go on but then I am only contradicting myself. As this post has now become part of the nonsense. I wont post anymore about this so if you want to go back and forth, I'm game. But I wont do it on here, you can pm me.

p.s. If this is deleted, it would be perfectly valid and would take no offense.

slaman37

Interesting thread...

I wouldn't quite say that. I come to TGO on and off for technical info for my swap. I considered the LSX swap into my 70 Monte but decided that the cost involved with the motor mount, headers and various other mods required for that would put it out of my price range. So I decided to go with the TPI set-up. I like the looks, and the torque is what I am after. And Torque is what is going to get my ~4000 lb monster rolling, of course the 200-4r and 3.73 posi will help. But I'm not trying to build a high horse motor. Yes I'm using a mix of new and used parts and I have no expectations of anywhere near 400HP. That was my old build that was not streetable with the .5"+ solid mech cam and 3500 stall.... I'm simple hoping for around 300HP and maybe 400-450ish ft-lb of torque.

To me though there is no shame in either 1st gen sbc or LSx's they just come from different era's. Yes, the LSx has the advantage of newer technology but the history of the sbc is second to none and for me it was just so much easier to retrofit the L98 setup into my project.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Wow! A simple kill story lead to all of this. DAMN!