CrazyHawaiian

Looking for ideas to get more steering angle out of our cars. If I understand correctly there are 2 steering stops, one in the steering box itself and one on the a-arms. My plans were to grind down the stop on the a-arm and get a new aftermarket steering box with modified stops. But before doing any of this I spent alot of time under the car with the suspension loaded via a floor jack and it looks like I'll need to make more changes than previously expected. First off is the problem of the inside lip of the wheel/tire contacting the frame rails at full lock. The stock setup leaves very little room, so even more angle will definately cause contact. So I thought maybe run a small adapter on the front wheels to widen the track and give more room on the inside. Problem with that is it looks like the outer edge of the tire will contact the inner fenderwells while moving to full lock since the geometry will have changed from a wider track. So I pulled the inner fenderwells and decided to run a shorter than normal front tire (about an inch shorter than stock 245/50/16). It still looks like I'm going to have contact problems so I have not ordered the spacers. Current setup without any adapter leaves very very little room. Wondering if anyone else has any ideas of how to get more steering angle out of the car. Thanks!!

Justins86bird

When you watch most 3rd gens with wide tires turn slowly at full lock, you can see the tire sliding sideways at the same time its rotating. More noticable when in the dirt. Chews up the tires really good. Making the wheels turn more would make it even worse. Why do you need more angle?

CrazyHawaiian

Because I'm into drifting and I want more angle while sliding. The more steering angle I can get the more slip angle I can get while drifting. I dont know how many degree's our steering is stock, but its really short compared to the rest of the cars that are out on the track. Right now this is my maximum angle (this is full lock):

Bens3rdGen

They guys who want to stick big front wheels on there cars have the same problem. Two solutions I've heard so far are..

1. Run wheel spacers or a different rim offset and roll the fenders.
I guess a body shop can change the fendes so they offer more clearance. I'm not sure how this would look, probably would depend on how good your body shop is. I guess some fiberglass fenders already have this built in but I don't know who offers em.

2. Some guys have gained some clearance buy using a small sledge on the parts that rub. This is the cheaper, less technical option but I've heard it works.

There are guys running 315s on the front of their 3rd gens. What ever tricks they used, you can use also. Try searching for cars running huge front tires and what they did. Let us know what you find out, I'm interested.

Discalimer: I have not tried either of these options and claim no responsibility for any mishap or damage that occurs.

CrazyHawaiian

Yeah I'm pretty close to either banging out or cutting out the fenders. I dont really care how it looks, just want more angle. I'll look into those guys running huge front tires. Thanks for the tip ...

Bens3rdGen

I did a kinda custom rolling job on some other fenders. You don't want to cut the outside fenders cause they will tear. You can use a big pair of channel locks and a rag and just fold the lip of fender over and over. Looks terrible (tried it at a junk yard), but it would be pretty functional. Let me know what you find out...

z28evans

I'm building a ls1/ iroc, that i will take drifting some. I've looked at the front suspension, and there is not much room for additional steering angle (which is really needed).

My friend Derrick helped build the KITT 3rd gen that he ran in FD this last year. They had to do some extensive modifications to get enough steering angle.

Getting rid of the stops will help. You can use the factory steering box and shorten the spindle arms (cut and re-weld). This quickens the steering provides for more angle with the stock box. There seems to be frame and control arm limitations to steering angle that will be hard to overcome.

us: www.BubbaDrift.com

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

How are your welding/fabricating skills?

Instead of using a BFG notch and re box in the subframe where the edge of the rim lip would hit.

Between a custom offset/backspacing. rolling the lips,and the sterring box and other little things I think you could get pleanty of angle you need.

CrazyHawaiian

Yeah thats a great idea, I'm gonna look into that. Unfortunately for me, I have horrible welding skills (I can make good "bird****" but thats it haha). But I do know a few shops I can take it to. As for the rolling/cutting of the fender, I've already got an extra set of fenders I dont mind ruining to practice with. It looks like I only need a little more space so this might work out. I think I need to do more reading on steering though, I want to make sure I take care of any possible geometry problems with more angle.

Hey BTW I have those Headers you coated going into that green IROC as we speak, cleaned em up, you did a great job on them.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Rolling lips is easy. I did it to the rear for some big meats. I sloted the metal a little 1st.

If you were closer id say come on over to my shop and we could knotch the frame and redo it. etc....

Glad the headers look good. Thumbs up.

Souseless

People that I know who have rolled their frnder lips used a baseball bat. You jack the car and wedg the bat between the tire and the fender. Then just roll it back and forth until you get what you want.

CrazyHawaiian

Thanks for the offer Chris, I wish I lived on the mainland US hehe I would take you up on that. I'll be sure to post some pics of these Headers when I'm done.

I hear ya Souseless, I helped my friend roll his lip that way, helps to have them roll the car forward too. But for this steering angle contact problem, the area of contact with the wider track would be the part of the fender rirght by the side markers on both sides, or the part below the door molding on either sides, not so much the top of the fender lip. I'm gonna roll my extra fender first, then if there is still contact I'm going to cut it. This fender is toast anyway, alot of rust on the bottom portion (hidden when installed, but still).

soultron

iTrader: (2)

(Thread from the dead.)

I'm glad I found this thread. I'm gonna need to do a little of this to my T/A.
The front rubs, so the inner fender plastics will be comming out and I'm trying find a place to get the fenders rolled. The 1.25 in. spacers helped, but how much would you have to shorten the steering arms? I can get another set of spindles and try it out. I don't need alot of angle, I'm not really good yet (yeah, drifting), but it could speed the process a bit.

BMmonteSS

You may want to look into G-body (monte carlos, regal) for the shorter idler arm arm and pitman arm. I know for a fact that the pitman arm is a good 1/4" or more shorter, you'll have to double check the idler, it would stand to reason that it would be the same length and both will bolt on to a thirdgen. This won't fix your interference problems but it will give you more steering angle and a quicker ratio too.

drifter-x

Does anyone know about the G-body arms, if they'll fit or be shorter enough to matter?

90firebird

Picture of a thirdgen steering assembly from BMR's website:


to effectively increase the range of steering angle based on the stock thirdgen design, one would want to lengthen the pitman/idler arms while shortening the length of the spindle's tie rod mount (what z28evans has done) as much as clearances will permit.

Here is something I threw together using paint.. It's very rough, and lengths are exaggerated for demonstration purposes. I also apologize for the size; Photobucket resized it to a terribly small size, and at this time I'm willing to settle with this. The view of these diagrams is similar to the picture above; you are looking straight up from the bottom of the car, with the car facing the same way as the one in the picture. Consider camber and caster to be set at 0 degrees in my example.

Red signifies the stock lengths while blue represents post modification.
Given the same angular sweep, a longer pitman arm allows more lateral travel of the centerlink, therefore adding to the steering angle at full lock. Shortening the spindle adds to the steering angle since a mounting point closer to the axis of rotation must revolve about that axis more, given the same lateral travel of the tie rod. In the diagram, the circles signify the axis of rotation, and the other end of the colored lines are the front of the spindle, where the steering linkage connects with the spindle (closest to the front of the car).

Ofcourse, expanding the steering angle at full lock won't do squat if you run into clearance issues with the steering/suspension components or with the tires rubbing. At that point, measures to regain clearance of the components are necessary, and as mentioned above, it would be more desireable to have the wheels pushed outward.

z28evans

just wanted to clarifiy - i did these mods on a G-body (el camino) and i'm not sure if there is enough clearence on an f -body. Some day soon i'll take a look at the iroc and see how much steering i can get and see if the mods are worth it.

90firebird

Ic.. well everything was just hypothetical.

pete240

what is the progress on your quest for more steering angle. I know this thread is old but I'm very curious as to what needs to be done in order to achieve more steering angle.

z28evans

I'm currently finishing up an ls1 / rx7 swap, but plan on taking a look at my steering angle in a couple of weeks to see what i can do on my camaro. I'll take some pics and show what i find - but it will be 2-3 weeks before i get to it.

pete240

cool cool. Yea I saw the pics of the rx7 on h240. Nice work

soultron

iTrader: (2)

What ever happened to this car anyway?
I saw something about it getting converted to a camaro... but then what?

soultron

iTrader: (2)

Here's some info from the bubba drift team I got from a you tube vid of all places... Here's the vid - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIJni8DfFoQ

Seems like more than I have... I'm gonna try it.

soultron

iTrader: (2)

Now what might you find longer pitman and idler arms from?
I might have a way to fit and obtain 43*, but it's 3 turns lock to lock.
On the plus side it all bolts on. Anyone?

z28evans

I ended up using the monte carlo SS steering box, and cut the stops back some. This gives as much angle as you can get with decent offset wheels (i forgot what i'm using at the moment) before you hit the frame.

Works pretty well, here is a video from last fall. Cars been down while i work on some other projects, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIJni8DfFoQ

James

soultron

iTrader: (2)

I posted that vid also a while back, and you gave me that info on you tube.
I'm getting a set of A-arms that will likely provide clearance for either the steering box (39*) or the one I'm looking to use (43*). Will probably work on the Gbodies also.

Oh secrets...!

z28evans

how is changing the a-arms on an f-body going to give you more steering angle if the tire hits the frame? Are you spacing your tires out or running narrow tires?

soultron

iTrader: (2)

The arms won't add more angle, a "special" steering box I'm trying out should, but they will hopefully provide more room for angle. The A-arms are to move the wheels away from the frame. It's hard to visualize, but it worked on the Drift5.0 car ( http://www.drift50.com/blog/geoffrey...ops-all-angles ) As is, the wheel contacts framework without stops on the A-arms. So spacers right? I've got 2in spacers, but I still hit front and rear because even though the spacer moved it out, now it has a wide arc. I think this is the scrub angle? So if it could move 2 inches out, but maintain the same arc it shouldn't hit. So they you should be able to add more angle and not rub as soon...maybe.
Does that make any sense?

I only have mspaint, but here's how I think it works. It's mildly exagerated.


I've also got a thread going at Frrax.com.. they've helped me out a bit there.

good lord that's a crappy diagram.

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

I would think doing both would be optimum. I'm not really into drifting, but I would think front tire grip isn't a concern which makes a smaller width front tire ok, right?

I don't know if this would work, but the full-size Chevy F-41 steering boxes with the code WZ have more total travel when compared to 3rd gen steering boxes. The 82-93 camaros with the WS steering boxes have 70 degrees of travel lock to lock. The above mentioned F-41 box has 87 deegrees of travel lock to lock. The gear ratio in the box is the same for both of them and the T-bar diamer is the same as well. The only difference other then the vehicle they came out of is that the F-41 box doesn't require as much effort to turn. However, I'm not sure if it is a simple unbolt/bolt in operation. If it is a unbolt/bolt in swap, that could save a lot of money since a custom steering box may not be needed.

Just my
Mike

soultron

iTrader: (2)

Actually grip is crazy important, all around. It would seem like it should be the opposite wouldn't it? I have heard about the F41 steering boxes (much like the YA Monte SS) , but the one I'm looking at is very very common. I just wanna make sure it's right before I go throwing it around. Don't wanna spread missinformation.

z28evans

Front grip is important, that is why i wouldn't recommend running skinny tires.

I understand what you are talking about with changing to a longer a-arm, i' ve seen this done (a friend of mine built some things like that for a non-camaro application for drifting).

How are you going to mount the strut with the longer control arm?

soultron

iTrader: (2)

I've got adjustable camber/caster mounts that should compensate for the added width. Hotparts 2nd design.

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

The Monte Carlo SS steering box requires more effort to turn and it has less total travel (78.5 degrees) making the F-41 box a better choice for more steering angle (87 degrees).

sketchy

iTrader: (3)

hey guys, im new to the boards idk if this is a dead post but i belive i can help you guys out. i drift a 1991 camaro and ive gotten more angle out of it. i am in the process of gettin even more out of it also. heres a vid of my ride in action http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P2zCGi9VVk

yes to get more angle you extend the control arms out thats the only way to make it work correctly, if you guys need anything for your camaros custom made let me know =p

soultron

iTrader: (2)

Since you extended the arms (makes more room) how do you plan of making more angle? I've been told to cut up the stops in the steering box, but a saginaw "guru" showed me a box to use instead. I'm not good at fabbing, so I tend to try and find off the shelf stuff. Got any pictures of your mods?

sketchy

iTrader: (3)

yes you can either use a diff box instead or get the stops removed, all the boxes are the same ti just depends how many shims there are inside that limit the travel, and of corse the ratio is differnt among theo boxes but the housings are the same for the most part. to get more angle you have to extend the control arms. then nkotch the control arms to clear the caliper (if you have 1le brakes) beat the lip down on the backside of the control arm becuase the wheel will still rub there, beat the frame in, beat parts of the battery tray, and right now im in the process of trying to find longer pitman and idleer arms so i can get 45+ degrees of steering. i was going to cut the knuckles up but i have 1le knuckles and there reall expensive, also in my car there is an interferance between the knuckle and contorl arm when you are at full lock if you make the distance any shorter, so the only way to get more for me is through teh pitman arm. also a steerig box that has 43 degrees angle (most you can get out of a camaro one) will only yield 40 degreees steering with the stock setup so keep that in mind, becuase the pitman arms are 12.5 long where the steering knuckle is 13.5 from the kingpin to the tie rod. heres some pics of my build. please let me know if any of you are interested in these parts, i dont know anybody personally that drifts camaros but they sure kick @ss and id like to help people out and maby make a living off of making parts just for these cars.
















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some of thoes pictures are old, the car has slightly more angle than that now and the new longer control arms are also notched like the ones in the other pic, the brake lines had to be moved and k member notched from my old setup, with the extended control arm the k memeber notch isnt necessary.

sketchy

iTrader: (3)

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I'm not into drifting. But could one go to coilovers, and tubular a-arms to help provide clearance on the a-arms?

Or are coilovers not good for drifting?

sketchy

iTrader: (3)

coilovers are good for drifting, but as for me i am hesitant to use them becuase the strut towers were designed to put up with the shock forces not the spring forces, the suspension work is devided into 2 parts, the spring work is absorbed by the k member and the shock work by the strut tower, putting both on the strut tower im scared to do becuase it looks like most of thoes kits are for drag racing. im gettin pretty frustrated with my car also becuase something drastic is going to ahve to be done (even though ive already done alot of drastic things) i can only get 45 degrees steering angle with longer pitman arms. to put that inperspective due to steering arm changes in 240sx's they now get 60+ degrees of angle and corollas around 70. im almost contimlating doing a coilover setup but not a bmr style, thoes control arms are not drift friendly as they are A shaped. if i was made of money id do something like...this!

http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicl.../photo_05.html

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

Putting coil-overs in the front will limit room for front tires.

soultron

iTrader: (2)

How much longer are the arms you've made? I have some that are 2" or so longer.

sketchy

iTrader: (3)

mine are only a lil bit longer bout 1'', anybody know how to get longer pitman and idler arms? id rather not cut and weld these things! i need the pitman arm to be between .8 and 1 inch longer to get 45 degrees. i cant go any longer because it will hit the k and bind on control arm. do you have any pics of your control arms that are 2'' longer? im very curious

soultron

iTrader: (2)

So how long are the stock pitman and idlers?

sketchy

iTrader: (3)

the stock pitman and idlers are 6.25in id like to get 7.25 (cant go much bigger than that because k member is in way) lol i made some formulas on how to figure out what angle gets what (however there are other obsticles in the way)

pitman arm radius / steering arm radius = C (steering coeficent)

C x 43 (how many degrees my steering box gets)= M (measured steering angle)

so if i want 45 degrees of steering angle at the wheels.
Cx43=M Cx43=45 (c=1.0465 now)

pitman arm radius / 6.25 (steering arm radius) = 1.0465

7.05 in pitman arm will get you 45 degrees

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I think there are a few people on here who have coil-overs on scca cars, and some road course. IIRC they did brace the mounting points a bit though.

soultron

iTrader: (2)

I pretty sure coil-overs aren't part of the solution. racing geek is right when he says they limit tire width. There are advatages, but wide tires are a must.

I suppose a longer pitman arm might come from a bigger wehicle using a saginaw box. I'll look around a bit and see what I can come up with.

2nd gen F-body Manual steering box should have a 7in pitman ( and idler I'd think) that should fit a saginaw. So far that's all I can come up with.

soultron

iTrader: (2)

One question though...
Are these longer pitman and idler going to slow the steering/make more turnslock to lock?

Actually, a suspension article I found say no, it will be faster.
I'm dumb at math.

sketchy

iTrader: (3)

yes longer pitman and idler will give quicker steering. steering wheel lock to lock will remain the same while the wheels will turn more. thank you for the research, my plan of attack is...go to junkyard and yank some spindles off of a regular camaro (i have a 1le camaro so i have vette calipers up front) and cut up the stock spindles and shorten the throw drift style (like they do on s13's) then purchase the mounting brackets they make to install my vette brakes on a stock spindle. im going to haev to heavily modify the lower contorl arms now. either that or get 2 inch longer ones if i can find them, do you have any pictures of 2 inch longer ones soultron? i want absolutly as much angle as i can get as this car is no longer a street car (i use towbar for local events and rent a trailer for long ones) and im tryin to get this car to compete in formula D. id really like to find a way to get 55 degrees or more out of this thing, this is gona take alota thought, anyones imput is welcome because this is gona take alota outside of the box creativity to achieve lol.

sorry about my paragraph form replys that have bad puntuation and random thought process. also soultron mentioned a concern about steering quickness. for drifting it would almost be better to have a grandma not fast ratio box as it gives the driver more leverage on the wheels and less stress on steering components, also makes the car less twitchy becuase a car wtih a drift setup is pretty redicously twitchy, as im sure you know. im kind of scared that when i put extended arms and shorted spindles the car is going to be suuuper twitchy...as it will have the same steering lock to lock except the wheels will turn signifcanly more thus quickening the steering ratio even more than the quick ratio box already in it..

soultron

iTrader: (2)

If you are going to cut the spindles, make sure you can first. I think the Drift Patrol mustang is in FD and they can't run aftermarket (possibly altered) spindles on thier car. I would think It'd be okay if FCs and S13s can do it, but make sure first.

90firebird

Another thing: steering boxes for cars that came with 16" wheels have internal stops in them to limit steering angle-and prevent rubbing. Boxes for 15" cars, therefore, don't have these stops and are able to achieve more angle.

This is the case with my car, as I swapped my 15x7's for GTA wheels and they rub the hell out of the inner fenders at full lock. Just to clarify, this is with the correct offset GTA wheels on the front.