85irocz28

hey guys i want a good setup for drifting in my Roc.. while not sacrificing drag racing too much..

CrazyHawaiian

You're gonna want to do all the same mods as the guys into roadracing/autox/scca. Aside from that you're gonna want to tune the suspension to be a little loose in the rear (aka oversteer), run more negative camber in front for increased contact patch at full lock, and go with a tire choice that will compliment your skill level and power level. Nothing really special about building a drift car except that you have to be willing to crash it because it will happen.

z28evans

I would have to disagree with this. If you are drifting in local events, they are generally setup in parking lots in a way so that you can not hit anything.

If you drift on the street, you will probably end up wrecking your car. ( parking lots are your friend)

The thing that the f-bodies could use the most is more steering angle, but it doesn't seem as though that is easy.

shameless plug: www.BubbaDrift.com

Boosted

I completely agree with his comment. The reason why is you won't be good without LOTS of practice. One of my friends has been drifting for about 7 years now and sveral cars and MANY tickets later he's starting to get noticed. You're gunna hit curbs on streets and other stuff you'll just have to deal with it.

As for setting the car up, don't go cheap on anything. My friend spent like $3,500 on struts for his 240. Suspension and brakes are the most important things.

z28evans

Not to be rude, but i would have to disagree with this as well. You can go drifting cheaply, replace worn items (bushings, etc) and make your car reliable (basic maintence).

We won our first Drift Show Off with less than $3500 in our whole car (the same low budget route we took on the el camino could easily be done on a f-body). We finished 8th in the Formula Drift series using stock front brakes, over-the-counter bilstein non-adjustable shocks, and home-boxed factory control arms. Horsepower helps, a good e-brake as well.

You can drift cheaply and have a lot of fun. The biggest thing is to get seat time. IF you have the budget, get better parts - we will for next year, but don't let that discourage you. Go to local events and have fun.

James

Mike Peters driving for Bubba Drift last year:



Derrick Rogers driving for Jon Ward last year

CrazyHawaiian

I understand what you are saying, my 89 IROC-Z drift project was basically stock for the longest time and it was a blast to drift. It was a FE2 suspension car with aftermarket panhard bar and exhaust. But when it was time to upgrade and go for better feel and more tunability I went with the "buy the best you can afford" mindset. So in those regards I agree with what he was saying. I too know alot of drifters that dropped thousands on their suspension. I've dropped around one thousand into my drift project chassis/suspension and I'm only about 1/2 way there. You've had good success with your car in FD, aside from the sponsored parts it sounds like you've done it on a great budget. But if you look at every other car in the top 10 at FD, they all have the good stuff. Nobody is stock and rarely is someone going with a mildly modified suspension setup (most have thousand dollar coilovers). Drifting rewards balance and balance can only be perfected with tunability, something a stock or mild suspension setup can only provide in limited ammounts. I don't think either of you are wrong, in fact I think you're both right, but it all depends on the situation and what the driver wants.

As for the track thing, that depends on where you are. Here where I live we dont have any events in large parking lots with cones, its either the track with guardrails or the streets. Some places dont even have a track, all they have are streets. I think its safe to say its inevitable that someone into drifting will crash at least once. Even the guys that do have open parking lots will eventually move on to road courses or tracks (or maybe even the street) and become exposed to the possibility.

superGMman

z28evans, that El Camino drifting is sick! I take it it's not common for an El Camino to be a drift car. Gonna give that pic to some drift fanatics I know of if you don't mind.

z28evans

Crazy - i understand what you are saying, and it makes sense. I just want people to know that you can get started inexpensively. We were limited by budget, but we needed some better suspension - which we hope to have next year. I'm also working on my 89 iroc, ls1/t56, lots of Spohn stuff. This is my baby, and it will see some drift duty. I've been to your site many times and watched some of your vids

We have local events about once a month or so, and they are all parking lot events - and we very rarely have an accident where cars are damaged. We have some very active locals who put on events for everyone to practice and have fun.

superGmman - help yourself, we've got videos and a lot of pics on our site.

Xophertony

i was drifting my 2.8 (quite well i might add) around a three lane right angle corner on wet pavement for about an hour one night after work. kept doing it faster and faster and then BANG somthing happened and i understeered instead of oversteered, locked up the brakes unlocked tried to regain control..... but it was too late. now i have all new suspension and a straight frame (had it pulled back to factory specs)

my brother (who now drifts an a raised toyota pickup on 35" tires.. snow rules) used to drift his 240 ALOT. broke alot of suspension components and ultimatly destroed the frame of the car crashing into curbs.

curbs happen.... thats why i don't drift anymore got to damned expensive.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

You know, I’m not into the whole drifting thing but I having spent a lot of time sideways before it became a “sport” I have to believe that there is more of a science to it then that.

Yea, I’d imaging that any chassis stiffening mods that you’d do for handling would apply, but I’m surprised about the oversteer. I would expect that being setup for understeer would actually help, sorta a kick it out with your actions/power/parking brake and let the understeer real it back in when you get into trouble. Even with a nutral handling car, once you get one end to kick out it’s pretty hard to real it back in and I would imagine that a car with a tendency to oversteer would be just about impossible to stop from oversteering.

I’d bet tweaking the axle housing to get some negative camber and toe in would help stabilize things, and I’d also suspect that LCA brackets and lower pickup points would help significantly by inducing bump oversteer (when you throw it into a turn or throw power at it) and understeer going the other way.

Of course, I could be totally wrong since I’ve never played with it either way.

Xophertony

now i am not going to pass this of as "the way it is". but heres "how i see it" . just one mans opinion.

i have delt with oversteer for a long time. i know what happens whaen a car oversteers. the wheels loosing traction are locked (can't steer) and therefore require no steering correction. they are controlled by my latteral movement peddals (brake and gas) if i am oversteering and i hit the brakes i am going to keep sliding in the same direction i was sliding while oversteering (won't spin out). in short... oversteer is predictable...

understeer on the other hand... once those fronts brake loose and i start sliding toward somthing solid, i loose track of where "center" is on my steering wheel, and am unable to point the tires in the direction i am sliding (forcing them to roll instead off slid, regaining traction)so i am unable to get out of it... it also takes alot of will power to turn the wheel back in the direction you are sliding to regain traction, before turning away from the object you are about to hit... also in low traction situations (snow, ice, water) it usualy understeers again imediatly.

i may not have articulated that verry well, but i think i made my point... when i am behind the wheel (this is all probably not true of you experts) understeer is the ABSOLUTE scariest thing that can happen. my V6 was verry prone to understeer (cause the front is so lite). (at least while atempting to throw the back around, under normal driving conditions it handles great) it made it more challanging. i think if i were to attempt in my 5.7 i would have a much better time with it.

also, thankyou for the concern crazyhawaiiian, i never crashed verry hard drifting... usaly i did slow 2nd gear drifting.

there were a few times i did 30MPH+ drifts, but always on three lane roads and always right turns, giving myslef the most distance before anything solid. there was this one road by my house i would always drift (crappy drifts usualy) around.. three lanes, right angle. i would start out at 45MPH in the right lane and then move into the center lane and brake to about 35 suddenly (throwing the front end down and at the same time begin my turn, hit the gas as i drop into third and the rear brakes loose, i would usualy end up in the right lane after the turn, in one perticular fubar i ended up in the center lane. the turns exelent visability allowed me to check for any traffic coming the other way... but at 1am there was usaly none.

CrazyHawaiian

Nah Mark you're not totally wrong. Like you said there is alot more to it than what I said, I was being very general. The guys that started this sport have been doing it for over 10 years, they've been tuning the cars to slide for a long time. Over here in the US its relatively new, everyone is still learning, and those of with with a "unknown" platform are really behind the ball because we have to start from scratch and see what works and what dosnt. I bet you if some of you smart guys got interested and did some real hot rodding trying new / custom stuff out you could make alot of progress. I am somewhat limited in that I dont have the skills or knowhow to really fabricate anything, I'm a "bolt on" kind of guy hahaha. That one thread where you talked about the strut towers and how their design limits the ammount of negative camber due to the mount placement, thats one of the problems a 3rd gen drifter will run into (since we spend alot of time at full lock and you need good front contact patch at full lock considering how the camber angle changes when you turn). The idea of relocating the strut towers would be crazy for me, but probably something you could accomplish.

The oversteer thing is also not 100% correct in all situations, just something I recommend to anyone getting into the sport so they can have fun with oversteer right away. The best suspension tune for drifting would all depend on the driver, how he/she wants the car to feel in regards to his/her drifting style, as well as the power level and f/r contact patch. My weight distribution is front heavy so I set my car up loose and run better and/or wider rear tires. But other guys have different setups so they prefer something different. Thats why I think tunability is so important.

Xophertony, one thing that really helped me get a grasp on what was going on was getting a feel for the weight balance (inertia) of the car. Generally speaking when the weight of the car is on the rear tires you're oversteering and when its on the front tires you're understeering. Your example sounds a lot like trail braking, I've used this in the past but only on certain turns. Watch out though, if you do that at the wrong time and the front pitches down the weight will transfer to the front of the car and cause you to understeer. When you're understeering the direction of the front tires no longer matters since they've lost traction. What you need to do is generate some oversteer (aka yank e-brake) or if you're like me with no e-brake crash into something. My most effective way to initiate drifts is the feint where you use lateral weight transfer to upset the traction (steer hard away from the turn, then hard into the turn) and throttle to maintain oversteer (countersteer and punch it haha). When I install my 5 speed and staging brake I'll be able to use clutch kicks w/ weight transfer to initiate and staging brake to hold the slide (so I can initiate super early, heavy car slides long time hehe).

Speedy Mike

Ive had a close call once, i was taking one of those 25mph left turns in the rain (not an intersection), i had the back end out the entire time at about 40mph and at the very end i went to straighten up and started fish tailing, and finally stoped a few feet from sideswiping a mail box.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Xophertony, (please don’t take this the wrong way) that may be what you think you’re feeling, but I doubt that is the case. Understeer is an intrinsically safe/stable condition, especially in a RWD car. 99% of the ways that you can get a car into understeer all you need to do is let of the gas or even give it some brake and it goes away. Once you get yourself in oversteer most corrections actually result in worse oversteer, especially if we’re talking about power induced oversteer, since the only real correction that will usually work is countersteer and the application of power, and if you used power to break the back end loose then giving it more will not help. You need to transfer weight to the back tires which means accelerating.

Crazy… unfortunately, I don’t know enough about the scoring to really know what would really be effective there, but it seems that the whole goal here is controlled oversteer at all sorts of different attitudes, right?

If that is the case, thinking about this some more, I’d build something with a stiff chassis that’s setup neutral or for slight understeer, but more importantly, I’d setup the front and rear suspension to sorta self correct, basically as much negative camber and toe in as I could get in the rear axle (this would be easier with an IRS, but you can bend a degree or 2 into an axle housing). I’d get the back pivots of the LCA’s as far up as possible (probably just lower the car way down without brackets), and finally, the front suspension/alignment would be roughly the same but specifically to balance what you get out of the rear. Seems like as much steering angle as possible is a plus and I can’t see any reason why you’d want to do anything but keep the scrub radius down, so you’d probably go as narrow a front tire as possible without looking hoaky (you can make up for the section with a little extra camber), and then remove/cut down the steering stops on both the control arms and steering box, maybe even notch the frame/inner fender area to allow the tires to turn farther.

My instinct with tires is the opposite of my normal instinct. I usually like as small a wheel diameter as you can realistically use to maximize useable slip angles, here I might consider low profile tires with a minimum usable slip angle an advantage. In the end it would probably more depend on sponsorship/contingency, but I would shoot for something that has as close a coefficient of dynamic friction and static friction to make handling as close when you’re drifting as when you’re actually sticking.

I wonder if rigging a hydraulic parking brake and maybe even a R/L bias would be helpful…

CrazyHawaiian

Not all drifting is power induced oversteer, that just seems to be the way the USA track events are setup. Alot of guys in Japan and Hawaii drift on more technical courses where there are greater variations of speeds and you need to use more braking techniques. So you'll have alot of drifts that are initiated very early to scrub off speed and still look good, shows you a different perspective of the cars tune versus all power induced high speed slides. A hydraulic parking brake would be a definate plus, not so much to initiate a slide but to hold a slide at speed or correct angles. I found some guys using a CNC staging brake (for semi trucks I think?) so thats the route I'm gonna go, just need to practice flaring lines before I do the mod. Stock e-brake really sucks, only uses like 1/4 od the rear pad. Another big help is the wilwood lever adjustable proportioning valve, helps you control how the car acts when you mash the footbrake while sliding at speed (controls how it rotates). I'm trying to find a way to re-route the proportioning valve into the dash so I can adjust it on the fly for different parts of the track (or different tracks). I think I can see the right way to physically re-route it, but still researching any adverse effects this would have as far as maybe pressure or something, the proportioning valve is usually intsalled much closer to the booster. The guys with IRS do play with their rear camber/toe and they say it does make a difference. I prefer the smaller sidewalls because they are stiffer. I've found the transition between grip and slip is alot smoother with a stiff sidewall. I dont focus on the tires characteristics as far as grip at all, focus mainly on the transition to slip and how it acts while slipping. We even go to the extreme of stretching tires on the wheel so the sidewall stiffens up even more (I'm currently running 235/45/17 on 17x9.5 rears but those will explode soon hehe). In the past I used to use tires with sidewalls like 55-65, really made a difference when I went down to 40-50. You're right about steering angle, its a big problem for us. I've already ground down my stops on the a-arms, but not in the box. Trying to test the wheels for more angle, I find I'll have contact to the inner well/chassis. So my plan is to run a small adapter in the front and widen the track, but then it looks like I'll have contact problems with the edges of the fender, so I'll have to "trim" them I guess hehe. Thanks for the ideas. You should try the sport some time, I think you would have alot of fun. Its like the next step up from doing burnouts and donuts for the sake of killing tires and listening to the engine.

Speedy Mike

i couldnt resist, i went drifting again last night, in a publix parking lot with friends in the rain, it was great! Practice makes perfect!

Timz2882

iTrader: (1)

the set up on the firebird thats on the Formula drift circit is just set up retared. the guy that ownes the car has too much money and not enuff brain. that firebird has the motor moved back i think he said 2''s or so. the bubbadrift car is much better set up.

hell crazyhawiian has his iroc set up alot better then that firebird.

matt67

Care to elaborate? It apeared to be under development during the first few events it was inas they worked the bugs out, but it seemed to do pretty well at Irwindale with a top-16 finish. Have you seen Irwindale? I don't think it's even possible to drift the whole course and stay off the walls without a good car setup. He even out-qualified many of the Formula Drift series front-runners, and that alone is saying a lot.

CrazyHawaiian

Nah man my IROC is not setup very well, I only recently did some suspension work and it still needs alot of track time to be tuned right. I still haven't finished the chassis, no cage yet, and I'm still running stock motor, brakes, and rearend. But I got some good stuff lined up, car will be getting alot of good parts pretty soon, 6 point rollcage, 350hp budget aluminum head motor and built 5 speed to name a few. I didnt really see the suspension setup in that Firebird but I saw the guy talking about it on TV. The main thing that came to mind was throttle control and huge rear tires. That thing was making alot of power, maybe more than you need to drift. And with limited steering angle this becomes even more important for our types of cars. But hey whatever, it was cool to see. My personal opinion about 350 at the wheels in a sub 3000 pound 3rdgen and the right tire setup would be great, thats what I'm going for.

Timz2882

iTrader: (1)

actually i did see it at irwindale. it has tons of power ill give it that. i dont think its set up well from the way the kid was driving it or the kid driving just cant drift. too much correcting goin on while he's drifting.

also matt , crazy hit a few good points on the set up of the car in his last post. also reread my post about where i said he moved the motor back i think a total of 2''s......why? no other drift cars if seen have never needed to do such a thing.

matt67

haha. . . . "can't drift" but still somehow made top 16 - sounds a bit contrary to me If you've ever tried drifting, you might know that cars don't just automatically drift, no matter how they're set up. Without a good driver they'll just understeer or spin. Just getting around the Irwindale course in one piece is a testament to the driver's skill, especially if the car's setup isn't optimal. Even an optimal car with "tons of power" must be driven with a great amount of skill to make it into the Formula Drift competition

But I know what you're talking about with his constant correcting. The car looked like it could use a lot more spring as is was wollowing around quite a bit. It certainly would be tough to drive smoothly if the chassis is moving around that much. I certainly agree that it's setup was far from perfect, but you must give credit where it's due - the car was there and it and the driver passed through both the unseeded qualifying and the main-day qualifying to get into the competition, so the judges certainly thought well of their performance, regardless of how it's set up.

I just think it's kind of silly to call out ANY car that makes it past all the qualifying rounds and into the competition and call it "poorly set up". But on second thought, I will concede that the car COULD be "poorly set up" but then he must be one HELL of a driver.

BarrisCustoms

I will merely start out by saying that I have raced on Irwindale Speedway. Last time I drove it was about two weeks ago.

Now as for the car, setup is everything. Any driver in a Late Model could drift the entire corners if the chassis was setup to do so- its not difficult, heck, most of us have done it on normal racing setups when the car is loose and the tires are cooked.

If you have any decent experience in driving a car to any perfomance level, then you would be able to step into any one of those so called TOP16 cars and do what they are doing, its not brain surgury, they are no gods- just guys given the opportunity of factory sponsorship to go out and occationally slam a car into a barrier when they all goof up- and they ALL occationally do.

CrazyHawaiian

I dont know if you meant to but that came across somewhat like an elitist attitude. Maybe I read that wrong? If you dont like the sport, fine, no need to disrespect the sport. Nobody into drifting is going around disrespecting racing, and if they were then they are stupid. You know one thing that I noticed at a local event that combines drifting with wheel to wheel roadracing ... when the drifters are on the course all the racers talk trash about how easy it is. At the end of the day they decided to switch it up for everyone (whoever wanted to participate). Not one of those trash talkers could hold a nice drift, alot of understeer into the turn and oversteer out. Same stuff the drifters did when they first tried. And on the other hand alot of the drifters were putting down good lap times, even the guys that dont race. I'm not saying anything bad about people that race, but I'm using this story to prove a point. Drifting looks alot easier than it is, especially the competition level. You have to really practice alot to get the speed and angle some of these guys get. I dont think anyone could just step into a car and win Formula Drift like you are saying. It requires practice and dedication, just like racing.

rx7speed

usually a front heavy car would be more prone to understeer due to the placement of weight away from the axis of rotation.

kinda like a shopping cart.
load up the front with soda/milk or other heavy items and leave the back end empy. when you try to turn the cart the front end is not going to turn that easily being the weight is all up front. and remember the car rotates around it's rear wheels.
the closer you get that weight to the rear wheels the easier it is for the car to turn it. think of mid engine cars.

part of the reason why the front end might of understeered with the v6 is lack of power mixed with how the suspension was setup.
like with a 5.7L as you where tlaking about having a much better time. think of how much more power it has to break those rear tires loose vs your little v6.

my rx7 has the same issue with understeer at times just due to the way it was tuned at the factory. with more power I should be able to break the tires loose or if I set it up away from factory specs on the suspension

matt67

that's the typical thinking of a racing driver who's never actually tried drifting. Getting "loose" on "cooked tires" is not competition drifting, sorry. But you'll have to try it for yourseld to fully appreciate this.

Not following you here. Of course they're not gods, they have a skill that anyone can learn, yes. But I'm affraid you are dead wrong that anyone with "decent experience" can "step into" a drift car and "do what they are doing". Show me one person, just one that has done this with no amount of dedicated practice in drifting. That's all it would take to prove yourself right. Or prove yourself right by doing it yourself.

in the first couple seasons of Formula Drift, I saw MANY professional racing teams show up to the events and compete - a BMW touring car team and Roush Performance racing team, Team Lexus (who only ever did any good with FD driver James Bonderant at the wheel), Evans Racing, and a couple others I can't think of off hand. NONE of them ever did any better than undesteer painfully or spin out constantly. And I say again, these were professional, fully sponsored racing teams that supposedly know what they're doing when it comes to driving, and who have all undoubtedly gotten "loose when the tires are cooked" many times in their careers.

So that's what you think drifting is about? Slamming cars into barriers? And how many factory backed teams do you think their are? Most teams out there are on modest 5-digit budgets for the entire season, and are out there not for a salary, but to have fun. Besides, don't ALL serious circle-track teams occasionaly put a car into the wall? Your point escapes me. . . .

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Something like this?
http://www.transamws6.com/video/spinout.wmv

BarrisCustoms

You simply just apexed too early then tried to correct and pinched the corner exit inducing snap oversteer trying to maintain the too tight exit line.

Matt- I use to exhibition drift the entire autox courses for fun back in the late 80's long before this drifting fade became a professional event. Take anyone not used to someone elses car and of course they will be timid and potentially make a mistake pushing a car immediately. Then take your own car that you are used to driving daily and set it upo for drifing and you should be able to nail it right off the bat. Its not hard, dirt trackers have been doing throttle steering for years- ps I have met Bob Bondurant, he was co-driver with a family friend (Dick Guldstand) in taking the first GrandSport Corvette to LeMans.

As for drifing, go to any local go-kart drift track (Slicktrack) and watch how many people can master that- 99% don't-even with practice they improve but barely. There is a slim 1% margin that can do no wrong even their first time out because they have it in the blood.

For those that can drive- we can drive anything anywhere anytime with a few shakedown laps to get a quick feel of the car


Dean (post makes more sense when you now know who I am )

CrazyHawaiian

No, the feint is different because you would initiate it before you actually enter the turn. And if you feint good the body of the car should not have too much lateral movement (should be able to keep the car within what would equal a single lane on the street), its a very fast motion you do to upset the traction. Good drifting is initiating the slide before you enter the turn. You want to be sliding before, through, and out of the turn.

Comparing competition drifting to people sliding around on a go-kart track is halarious if you ask me. Its almost as ridiculous as saying drifting is easy because you can do it good in Gran Turismo 4. The bottom line, its not as easy as you are portraying. Maybe someone with a racing background might have an easier time getting the hang of it, but its still not easy if you recognize the difference between competition drifting and sliding the car around for fun. I think you should give credit where credit is due. The guys at the competition level have a large ammount of skill and talent, they didnt just step into their car and win the event on their first try. Its funny that you mention Bob Bondurant, both he and his son James are involved with drifting. When the D1GP first came down to the USA, Bob rode with one of the Japan drivers and he said it was the most fun he's had in a long time. I have alot of respect for Bob because he was able to look at the new sport with an open mind and enjoy it instead of being condesending about it. I would think someone with as many accomplishments as him in the racing world might have a big ego, but thats definately not the case. No slight to either him or his son but neither has won any drifting events. I know they both have large ammount of skill and talent as well as a large ammount of resources. That should tell you something. Maybe its not as easy as you are portraying.

BarrisCustoms

Childs play, come ride in my Vette sometime next time you hit the mainland. I drive it around freeway changeovers like a sprintcar just because I have enough throttle to keep me out of trouble at 80 mph sideways and a rock solid suspension for predictability.

I have mentioned many times before that I put down 540 RWhp in this car and it is fairly well known even at the world famous Route 66 car show for taking 2nd place two years straight in the open header competition.


Again, internet crap makes me sound like I am speaking of something that anyone can boast- but I have the reputation with every local So Cal TGO member of my cars and driving talent- ask any one of them for credibility of my words-

its quite easy in the right car. I could not dream of doing it in the Camaro because it is pathetic in power with about 135 RWhp. Hell, I even drift entire cloverleaf freeway onramp with my 89 Chev longbed truck when it rains for kicks- when you can hold a "longbed" truck out all the way around a 270* turn @ about 45-60mph increasing onto the freeway still sideways then come talk to me.

I reference go-karts simply because they are so damn simple yet so many can not even master them. Either you have it, or you don't- you just can't learn to do it someday unless its in the blood. *The point is* any of the few in populous that *have it* would jump right in any of these top16 cars and in no time be doing every bit as good as any of the so called pro's. Not all so called racecar drivers *have it*, what they have far too often is just too much money and lack the talent, and its way too hard to get a shot at a factory drive unless you are a dynasty name. I walked all over Clint and Casey Mears on Irwindale back in '99 when we were running the course late one afternoon after a class session had ended (have it all on 8mm video) yet they have dynasty names and the conections- I don't and have never been given the shot at a bigtime ride even though I have been seen by those who could give me such- its all about the $$ and the marketing dynasty name. Racecar drivers are alot like Hollywood stars- they want everyone else to believe they have talent and nobody else can do what they do, and they keep the rides in the family. Unfortunately for me- My window of opportunity is far gone now at 39 years old.

CrazyHawaiian

Well, if you are as good at drifting as you think you are then I say you should go enter some drifting events and prove me wrong. After all, its so easy and you've already mastered it, why not? Easy money! The sport is new, new people are making a name for themselves, and the sponsorship possibilities are there regardless of how old you are. There are drivers that were previously unknowns making six figgures drifting right now, one of them is not even 18 yet. The sport has been going for 2 years in the USA, very possible new drivers can come up quick. But I can tell you right now what will happen. You'll enter an event and not even place because you will not have spent as much time practicing/tuning as the other drivers that take it seriously and consider it a challange. Thats right, all those no talent drifters that like to crash into walls will have beat you. Then you'll say the judges screwed you over because of (insert excuse here) and never enter an event again. Am I totally wrong? Who knows, maybe you can prove me wrong. I'll be looking for your name at the events.

matt67

where I had just finished saying:

You never saw these teams make a name for themselves because they never did well enough to shine over the grassroots competitors who took it more seriously, even though they were in a car they were "used to driving daily" and presumably "sett up for drifting" because they ARE professional racing teams who "know what they are doing". They just embarrased themselves time and again because they had the same attitude you are displaying now - that they could just show up without any extensive practice or preparation and they'd "show all these ametures how it's done by a REAL racing team"

BarrisCustoms

Matt, you are still not understanding what I am saying. I am not talking about the person, I am talking about the car. Get any one of those big name Team Lexus, Evans Racing, Bondurant, etc that you listed and put them into a car that is set up right then its a no brainer they can do just as good in a few laps as any drifter champ. The reason why even the big factory teams aren't doing as good jum,ping right into the game is they lack the setup knowledge due to inexperience in drift car setups- give 'em a year or two to perfect the cars and their drivers will be dominating everyone because you can not compete with there pocketbooks once they get their cars setup correctly.

Heck, go try and roadrace a drift car, and drag race a NASCAR, and dirttrack an Indycar. But any of those cars would do very good if tweaked for a year or two to re-taylor it to the new enviroment

I could take the world champ Drifter nd stick him into some Moms station wagon and he could not drift it in its present state, but tweak that good ol' stationwagon properly with the right parts and setup and the guy will drift it all day.

wellington

if you dont have the right car AND the right driver you wont win.


plain and simple.


good car+bad driver=wrecked car

good driver +bad car= hampered performance


good car+good driver=win

BarrisCustoms

Tell me this, How many of the local amatuers are running tractor brakes like the pros are. I doubt maybe 1 out of a 100 can afford to set their car up or even have the money and time to practice with something they have never used.

CrazyHawaiian

This dosnt make sense because the "drifter champs" they are competing against in the USA started competition level drifting around the same time. And the fully sponsored racing teams probably have more resources as far as track time and tires. Alot of these "drifter champs" didn't come from fully sponsored teams, they came from the streets to local grassroots events using their own personal cars with limited track time, then became partially sponsored and they barely make it to the events from a financial perspective. Alot of people dont have the luxury of private track days like some of these racing teams. Of course this is not true for everyone, but it is true for alot. The bottom line is that the driver skill is what makes the car drift, not the car. Sure the car tune is important, but the driver skill is much more important. Alot of times people run into mechanical failures or flat out dont have a car to drive, they will barrow someone elses car to compete. This happens alot. And even though they aren't used to these cars they barrow, they have enough skill to be able to drift them great because they practice so much. Practice makes perfect, and thats what makes drifting so great. Nobody with a big pocketbook is going to dominate if they can't drift as good as the other guys. Having the fastest or best built car dosnt matter. Being able to drift the best is what matters. Money isn't going to win any drifting events. Out of all motorsports I've seen, drifting is the best one in terms of the underdog grassroots driver having a chance to compete against the sponsored guys and win. Mainly because of the subjective nature of the judging. It happens here in my local scene, but to a smaller degree. Some guy nobody has seen at the events before will show up and win the event over the known sponsored guys that drift the track alot and have better built cars. Why did the unknown guy win? It wasnt because he was able to tune his car for the track, no he wasnt even getting his practice time in at the track. He was doing it on the streets meaning he got alot more practice time in than the guys doing track events and private events on weekends or once a week or whatever.

This comment makes me think about Rhys Millen doing all the stunt driving in the movie "Dukes of Hazard" which involved basically drifting the car on both dirt and pavement. A car that has never been used in the drifting scene to this day. Some of the scenes on wet pavement were pretty complex, required almost perfect precision. Rhys Millen was one of the top 3 in the Formula Drift series. How much time do you honestly think Rhys and the people on set spent setting the car up to drift? Something tells me there was not alot of hardcore tuning going on there, I think he basically practiced the scenes until they were perfect. I dont know if I'm correct or not, but I wouldnt be supprised. Rhys has alot of skill and thats what you saw in the movie. Wasnt a perfectly tuned car drifting. It was a driver with alot of skill drifting.

BarrisCustoms

You obviously haven't seen the bloopers from that movies production edits. Revt the DVD and watch his mistakes in the outtakes

matt67

Yes, I know exactly what you are saying. I specifically said: "they were in a car they were "used to driving daily" and presumably "set up for drifting" because they ARE professional racing teams who "know what they are doing""

Besides, isn't car setup just as important as driving skill in nearly EVERY motorsport? What excuses knowledge and skill in car setup from the overall picture here? The most successful drifters not only have extensive experience and skill behind the wheel, but also experience and skill in setting up their cars. Same is true for those professional racing teams I spoke of. If their car setup is the only thing they were lacking as you say, then they still failed by their own INEXPERIENCE in drifting. The car does not excuse them from not doing well - they THOUGHT they could show up and do well, but they obviously made a serious error in their judgment, an act that ALL PROFFESSIONALS of any sport or industry strive to avoid.

You do not appear to be understanding (or not listening to) people that have been much more deeply involved in drifting than you have. I don't claim to know what it takes to be good at or win in circle track racing, even though I may have a good general idea from associating with friends in circle-track racing community (a couple with late-models even). So too, YOU cannot claim to know what it takes to be good at or win in drifting. We who ARE actively involved are in a far better place to make these judgments than someone like yourself who looks in from the outside and thinks he can pull all the answers and know-how for to do well from totally different forms of motorsports. Listen to yourself - you are claiming to know the intricacies of a sport you have never been involved with. And WE'RE telling you that there's a lot more to it than what you are leading on. I know what you're saying, and from my EXPERIENCE in the sport that you have none in, I'm suggesting to you that you have a lot to learn about it.

With that last statement of mine, I’m half-expecting you to comment back about your experience “drifting” your Corvette around clover-leafs or getting “loose” around Irwindale again. You must understand that people who have truly tried exhibition or competition drifting even once know that it is absolutely incomparable to anything else, and requires a very unique skill-set that takes time and practice to develop, no matter the driver’s past experience. Although it is agreeable that experience in some forms of motorsports (rallye for instance) help the learning curve greatly. But there's STILL a curve.

Wouldn't you agree that after a "year or two" of tweaking that they would also have extensive (and I say essential) drifting experience under their belt too?

You could not be more incorrect, sir. This comment just shows how isolated you are from what really goes on at every sanctioned drift practice event around the country. Stock Nissan 240SXs are commonplace. Some of the more oddball cars I've seen at these events (and drifted successfully) are a Lincoln Mark VIIIs, Lincoln LSs, v6 Mustangs, an S10 pickup, Ford F150, and an Acura Integra. Speaking of stationwagons, it is my understanding that old RWD Volvos make excellent starting drift cars even bone stock. And need I point out the El Camino that has been exceeding everyone’s expectations at the professional level for a couple years now? Just how IS a ratty old El Camino beating experienced teams with far more resources at their disposal? Certainly can't be the car. . . . must be the shoes. . . .

BarrisCustoms

Matt, When you coming out to So Calif- let me know- you have the first offer of the e-ticket ride in my Vette of anyone here on TGO. I will get it out and dust it off just for you- No BS. I am easy to find around here, when the time comes you can get out here, I 100% will keep to my promise of giving you a ride and an education of what a properly setup 500hp car will do- bring a change of shorts.

I am known around here by simply "Dean" so you can call for me when you get time to come out here. Here's a shot I tried to copy off some Video footage of me drifting the Vette on an autox run back in 1988- this footage aired on national TV up in Canada- It was filmed he in So. Calif. back when I used to drive for GRA. I would run about 8 second slower laptimes when I drifted it (Everyone dubbed me doing this as *stunt car driving* back in 1988). I was quite famous for doing this for fun at the end of the day and everyone would line the fences to watch.

rx7speed

you have a lot of skill driving correct? I'm sure you make mistakes sometimes though

BarrisCustoms

Ding,Ding,Ding (prize bell rings) Thats my point. Even these Champ drivers are not flawless and it takes big bucks to fix a car fequently put into a barrier. When the drift drivers mess up, they generally do it in a big way and the car is totaled. The it takes big factory money to get a choice car built and setup again, or dratically repaired after slamming a barrier. (LIFE IS MUCH EASIER TO DRIFT A CAR WHEN YOU KNOW IN THE BACK OF YOUR MIND YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR THE REPAIRS IF YOU SCREW UP- Alot of pressure is lifted and yiou can drive much nmore loose and relaxed.)

The fortunate thing for me when I used to screw around doing this is I did it in a wide open parkinglot and just drifted off line and took out a few cones as I then drifted right back in on course in the event I over drove a corner- that happened mostly at Irvine Meadow though because the blacktop was horrindous with bumps,dips, and gravelous patches that made it impossible to keep predictable traction while sliding. SCCA stopped running there years back due to a fatal accident that happened in that parkinglot. In all fairness though , the autox tracks were not designed to drift on so it was much more challanging not to hit the cones than if I were on a designated drift course with flowing corners design as such.

Basically, any of you guys looking into drifting should go down to your local slicktrack go-kart track and practice practicve practice on those first long before you start trying to muscle a full size car around a drift course. Master a go-kart first were you have very little wheel movement in the drift and steer it with your throttle. If you can not master 100% predictable laps in a simple go-kart, then you are not ready to master a car. Same thing applies toewards roadracing a Go-kart, Your lap times should all be fast and within about .5 sec of eachother showing true consitency- go-karts are overlooked as childsplay by most people, but is actually your very best learning tool. How may major racers come out of shifterkarts? More than any other type of junior ranks- Kart drivers become much more refined racecar drivers.

Now when it comes to bigtime racing ranks- guys at this level have had years of experience with very high HP cars. High HP can get you 'out' of trouble when you have adequate experience-HOWEVER- it will get a novice driver 'into' trouble because they have no pedal control. Most people drifting cars at local events hacve never driven a car with over 250rwhp, nevertheless a car with over 500 rwhp. When I say drive- I mean drive not just the chance one time to put around a friends car or nail it straightline- I mean caress that sucker through a sweeper at 80mph and see how the power keeps the *** end of the car from coming around if you you hang it out too deep-with power and experience with power- its simple. Anyone with adequate racing experience can jump into a car of that level and do what they do in no time given the right car.

I am bored of high HP cars and going back to roots of driving a car that needs skill and percision under braking and cornering top carry speed with absolutely no HP to save you- You have to be very refined to be fast- hence why I keep screwing around in my wifes V6 Camaro that I built but left 135rwhp V6 in- this car is an underdog and challanges me to stay sharp and refined. This car is a vomit comet down until you apex then it is a walk in the park coming off th corners with you foot burried WOT(that part is boring- But anyone can exit a corner- the skill is entry and steadystate speed carried in sitting on edge.) I can drive anything as good as its owner as long as I fit into it and comfortably work the pedals, and as long as its not some rediculous non safe tunaboat.

What I am getting at- and we mostly agree on this part is it does on fact take more skill to try and drive an amatuer car with a bad setup- most pros would not waste there time trying any of your cars since they are spoiled. YET- you guys that do refine your skills in your car will have to learn all over again whenyou now have to deal wiith massive HP you are not used to. If you have skills and are experienced with massive hp- they you can jump into any pros car an drive it every bit as fast as they can- if not- then you are not as good a drift period( that means even non-drifting venues) as you may think you are.

Now granted, there are alot of drift guys that have talent, but there are many that don't but have the power and chassis to make them good and the dynasty name to get the ride even though there are better non-name drivers more deserving. This applies to all types of racing. Just because someone races, it doesn't mean they know how to drive- in my honest opinon 75% of all racecar drivers do not have natural talent and never will- its the car that makes them look good and do decent, but never great.

Edit: I also checked around and found a few incar shots of these pros in fact using a tractor brake type setup (handbrake levers) to control both corner entry and speed control so they can maintain rear tire spin yet slow the car

matt67

Wow, again you're displaying just how little you know about the sport. A few teams, maybe 2 or 3 can do as you say and feel no qualms about totalling thier car. Again, just how many "big factory" sonsors do you think are involved? More importantly, just what kind of budget do you think most teams operate on? I'll tell you with 100% certainty that wrecking a car is a HUGE problem for MOST of the teams. To think the drivers feel "fine" about wrecking their car at any time is ludicrous. All other arguments aside, wrecking a car or totalling it means that team is out of the competition, most of the time before the competition even starts. What's so mind-easing or relaxed about that?

Uhm, you mean the e-brake handle? The lever they pull quite often? Yeah, that's the e-brake handle. It LOCKS UP the rear tires, it does not "maintain rear tire spin" as you assume. Please, quit making assumptions and proclaiming them as fact. You don't know everything you think you do about drifting, and the "tractor brake" comment provides indisputable insight toward your broader illusions.

matt67

I can't help but decide that this invite, while admirable in intention, was made in a condescending tone. Almost as if you were intending to "show the kid how it's REALLY done" or something. Trust me, sir, I've done enough drifting, drift instructing, and ride-alongs to say with confidence that you would need to display "professional level" drift control to impress me at all. I'm certainly not doubting your ability to powerslide your Corvette around or drift an autocross – I’ve done that man, many times myself. But what I AM doubting is your ability to demonstrate what you've been claiming all along - that you can display pro-level drifting ability with no amount of premeditated effort or practice.

At this point, I feel obligated to make my identity known. My username is misleading, and I apologize for that. I only created it to make an anonymous, 3rd-person interjection earlier in this thread – mainly because I dislike the possibility of establishing myself as some sort of internet-warrior. In hindsight I'm regretting using an anonymous identity, as it seems credentials have become an important element in establishing legitimacy to one's argument here. In this respect, I applaud your intention to back up your arguments with a make-do demonstration of your skill, and not hide behind an anonymous internet persona like so many would. I intend to do the same.

I will be in So. Cal. a few times through this next year competing in a certain series you may be distantly familiar with. Instead of taking you up on your invite, perhaps you would be receptive to a challenge. Since you are conveniently located in SoCal, the challenge would be to dust off your Corvette, go obtain a Formula Drift license through one of the many feeder events (info obtainable on the FD website), and enter one of the 2 SoCal FD events held next year. I will be there also in a "properly setup 500+hp car." May the driver with the most applicable experience/skill (to drifting) and most appropriate car setup come out ahead.

For your reference, here's a vid of my “unseeded qualifying” runs in an "IMproperly setup 600+hp car at Irwindale last year. I qualified 7th out of about 60.

http://hotrodhomepage.com/?p=43

In reference to the Firebird, the car's owner (who happened to hold MANY accomplishments in dirt-track racing and the Trans-Am series) was unfortunately very "traditional" in the way he insisted the car be set up. I worked with him for some time trying to get some of the major flaws in the car's setup changed, but all I managed was small detail changes, and I just had to adapt my driving to the car. People are right to observe that the car wasn't set up properly for drifting and it was a major handicap for me - but that doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't be drifted successfully by a capable driver. Fortunately though, I will be in charge of my own car's setup this coming season. . . . .

Derrick

CrazyHawaiian

Somehow I knew this thread was going to turn into someone thats not even into drifting trying to tell everyone everything they need to know about drifting. You dont need to prove anything to us over the Internet man. If you want to prove something, do what Derrick and I both said and go prove it on the track. Go prove us wrong and place in FD and show us just how easy it is.

I dont think you got my point about the movie "Dukes of Hazard" because you basically proved the point I was trying to make. Of course there were bloopers. Do you think anyone is going to nail those stunts on the first try? Of course not. Same with drifting. Practice makes perfect and thats what I've been trying to tell you all along. I thought it was a good anology because the car he was using was probably not "properly setup" as you call it. But with enough practice he was able to perform those stunts (which was basically drifting).

Going go-karting to get into drifting is bad advice if you ask me. Not that its detremental or anything, but why wait? Why not just take your actual car out to a grassroots drifting event and learn with your car? Then not only will you learn about drifting, you'll learn more about your own car and you can use that knowledge to help you tune the car. But at least in this part of your post you start to reiterate what I've been trying to tell you all along. Yes it takes alot of practice. Nobody is going to show up and drift perfect the first time, regardless of what car they're using. Nobody.

Your say some guys in the competition drifting scene have no talent, where do you come up with this stuff? Everyone that places at an event has talent. If they didnt have talent, they wouldnt be drifting. Plain and simple. This isn't like other sports where people can "get by" on a good car, alot of money, or some special last name. No this sport is not like that. The only way to "get by" is to be able to drift. If you cant drift, then you'll be re-gripping, spinning out, or crashing, and you'll never place. So you can guarantee that anyone that places at the competition level of drifting does have a good ammount of skill and talent. Its not the car drifting, its the driver.

I personally know alot of good drivers that can jump from one car to the next, barrow their friends car, change the car platform, etc, etc and still be able to drift awesome. Like I said earlier, people barrow other peoples car alot and not everyone tunes their car the same. So the driver has to be able to adapt, thats driver skill right there. Hell, once we had a D1GP professional (it was Ueo) come to our local event here in Hawaii and drift Revlimits 3rdgen Camaro. On his second lap around the course he was already drifting it awesome. Keep in mind this guy is from Japan and he's never drove a Camaro in his entire life, much less a 400hp one w/ a 6 speed. But 5 minutes in the Camaro and he's already drifting it better than any of us that had been practicing for years. Its all driver skill man. And after he was done he told Revlimit what changes he thought Revlimit should make to the car. Talk about a great guy, invaluable information from a Japan pro. Then he proceedes to jump in someone elses car and go drift that one awesome. I think when the day was done he had driven 5 or 6 different cars, all different platforms, and all awesome results. And keep in mind these are all "amature" drivers cars, no professionally built cars with perfect tune. This should tell you one thing, its the drivers skill not the car.

BarrisCustoms

OK klets play 3rd grade..
Then maybe you want to explain the hand lever this guy tugs on during the incar video shots most likely applying a tractorbrake setup to the front brakes only controlling his speed and corner tightness.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=107880
An I'm the one in the dark

I watched a few of your videos on your Bubbadrift homepage and it immediately shows you making different lines on every one lap run you do. Especially the guy in the ElCamino, he's winging it and just trying to keep it between the barriers with absolutly no consitency each lap- right up to where he even hits the (empty)waterbarriers. I do that in my Corvette and I will wipe out an $8000 paintjob in one small glance- give me your car and I gaurantee I can match anything you do in it- that includes just tearing the crap out of it. That video of Irwindale? which looks like the back parkinglot of Irwindale? Cause its not inside the track itself- looks like a typical HS parkinglot in the old days until the police or teachers show up and stop the juveniles. hell, Jesse James puts on a better show than that during the figure8 racing when he repetitively keeps the car adrift for probably 20 laps at a time, not one. The only reason people watch you drift is because they are waiting for you to stuff the car into the barrier and cheer- they go for the carnage.

CrazyHawaiian

No its a hydraulic handbrake inline to the rear brakes. It locks the rear wheels just like if you pulled the regular handbrake, but much better because it uses hydraulic power to lock the caliper instead of cable power pushing on a small portion of the pad. This is used by some to initiate the slide, but more often used after the slide has already started to extend the slide and/or correct the angle of the car. Its not connected to the front brakes. Its definately a very usefull tool for a drifter. But if you use it to initiate slides all the time then thats generally consider noobish. I really wish I had a good one mainly for the street so I could "flip a bitch" hehe is what we call it, basically being able to do a 180 on a 2 lane road to go the other way and hit the turns in reverse.

BarrisCustoms

CH, traditional tractor brakes have been used for years in stadium offroad racing to individually lock each rear wheel independantly. When you are slowing to a tight corner you simply pull the lever on the dside you want to turn to and it locks that rear inside wheel upon slowing into the tight corner and induces the car to pitch.
However, under throttle and on pavement, I don'tt see how you can lock out one inside tire unless you are running an open diff.
And, they guy in the Video is only manipulating one lever so is he controlling both rear wheels together with just that one lever? Hence why I suspect it to be more of a front brake to control chassis speed while the trottle and wheel pitch bring the *** end around to initiate.

So... is he running and open diff?, and why one lever instead of traditional dual levers associated with normal tractorbrake setups.

CrazyHawaiian

Its mainly not setup like that because its not supposed to be a tractor brake. Its supposed to be a step up from the normal handbrake you'll find in any street car. You have to understand that this sport began on the streets and eventually made its way to the track. So alot of the stuff you see derived from what people did on the street. Both rear wheels locking means the car will react the same in either direction (left/right). So when the car is already sliding and you need to extend the slide or correct, the car is more predictable in either direction. I dont think anyone at the competition level is running an open diff, and I know its generally not preferred. An open diff would not be as predictable when sliding both ways (left/right), and you won't get as much power to the ground (which in drifting means more speed and more smoke). Its generally preferred to have a 2 way locking LSD/Diff that locks on both accel and deaccel. Some domestic guys go with a spool or mini-spool. I know Derrick has done that in the past with his Bubba Drift car, and I'm gonna try it with my Camaro too. Combine that with a good working handbrake and a manual transmission and you are good to go.

I bet you if you got an extra set of rear 16's and slapped on some 205/55/16's or 215/55/16's your V6 Camaro would be a fun car to drift. Probably even more so in the rain. You probably wouldnt win any competitions, but it would still be alot of fun. Your 6 probably puts down more wheel power than the L03 in my old 89 RS.

BarrisCustoms

I just don't get the whole locking the rears thing. I wa under the impression that you always want to maintain rear wheel spin and not want them to slow or you would loose points in the judges eyes- hence why a front brake only lever would allow a spool rearend to maintain spinning. Simply put, the front handlbrake could control the car if it wants to straighten under power and slow it for a tighter turn, then brake off an ease off feathering of throttle would cause the car to straighten back if getting too much angle. If you get it down, its just throttle and front handbrake while keeping the wheel as still as possible at almost full lock- be worth a try for you guys if no one is doing it. I will just say by using a rear handbrake lever and jambing that diff down then releasing is tearing the crap out of your guys drivetrains--ouch- its gotta make all kinds of noise and shutter like hell inside the car when stopping that locker or spool then hammering it right back on. Must be replacing u-joints every day.

As for my V6, the car has so much traction that drifting would be impossible in it since it is downright pathetic in the power department. I drift it into hard highspeed braking corners just to scare the crap out of people wanting to experience the cars handling capabilties, but it has no power to muscle out of a corner- just fun as all hell to unload and then restabilize as I'm stopping when passengers are on the brink of thinking I've just lost it and we're about to smack a retaining wall at the end of a freeway offramp turn. this car has so much grip you can do no wrong- you yourself without knowing my car should be able to jump right into it and drive it to extreme immediately since its setup so forgiving. I have it that way for my wife's safety in case she ever has to avoid a high speed collision ahead of her on the freeway or such. She is not that great of a driver, but the car makes her so much more agile in reactions. My Vette on the otherhand is way too much car for her to handle. She can not even drive it because you have to steer it with the throttle at low speeds or just downright wear yourself out- Its a monster to try and drive normal on surface streets. Shes 6ft and about 160 but doesn't have the strength to turn the car under about 15mph- you have to be going about 12 mph to even get the clutch engaged.

CrazyHawaiian

Well, in the scenario of a long sweeping turn the driver would probably not be using any braking to control the drift, it would all be throttle control like you are saying. But consider that not all tracks are composed of long sweeping turns, you probably know this better than me, alot of tracks have alot of different types of turns, variations, and straightaways. So maybe lets make up a scenario: Long sweeper to the left, then a small straightaway, then a tighter turn to the right, maybe something complex like an off-camber turn requiring slower speeds. To give an example of how someone might use the handbrake mid slide lets say the scenario went like this: Driver initiates the slide for the first sweeper to the left, uses whatever method he prefers and now he's countersteering to the right and using throttle to control the oversteer through the turn. At this point he wants maximum speed. Driver comes up on the end of the high speed sweeping turn about to enter the straight away. Now the driver has a few choices. One choice, he can end the slide, re-grip and drive down the straightaway like normal to prepare for the off-camber. Another choice could be to use the momentum of the slide through the sweeper in conjunction with the handbrake to slide down the entire straightaway sideways, and then drift the off-camber connecting the turns. So if you have a hard time imagining this, driver comes out of the sweeper countersteering to the right on throttle, lets off the throttle a bit to swing the momentum the other way so he is now countersteering left, maybe a little throttle at this point to push the car further, and then pulling the handbrake a few times (heck, maybe holding it) while continuing to countersteer left until he comes up on the off-camber, then maybe some footbrake action to scrub speed, and then finally drift through the off-camber using throttle. So the two different choices there, one involved re-gripping and driving down the straightaway like normal, the other involved using the handbrake plus momentum to slide down the entire straightaway sideways and connecting the two turns. You can imagine which one would score better at a drifting competition. So I guess bottom line, you wouldnt be using the handbrake in the middle of a long sweeping turn while on throttle. But you might use it to initiate a slide, to hold a slide between turns to connect them, to correct the angle while approaching a turn already sliding, or to do a quick turnaround (more for the street on that last one).

As for your Camaro, I know its setup for grip right now, thats why I said throw on some smaller width tires in the rear or even do it in the rain. With the ammount of suspension work you have I bet your car would drift great, be alot of fun. If my old POS L03 auto was able to break loose 215's I'm sure your car could too. L03 sucks!! Power dosnt matter unless your in competition. Just even out the power to rear tire contact patch ratio to favor oversteer. We have 100fwhp cars drifting at our local event. Not like awesome or anything, but they're doing it. And you're right its hard on the drivetrain. its basically hard on the car period. Drifting is hell for a car, thats why upkeep is important.

matt67

Wow this is getting irritating. Are you just overlooking my posts entirely?

Sure looks like IRWINDALE to me. . . . And bravo on the lost attempt at an insult. Jesse James? please. People waiting for us to stuff the car? Well I guess they wasted their money then.

You sound pretty confident you can do better, so do it and show us "how real racers do it" or whatever. You explained earlier you were not able because you're too old and missed the sponsorship wagon or some nonsense. The reality is that if you can do well enough to simply GET AN FD LISCENSE you can get moderate sponsorships. And if you're so confident in yourself, then you should have no trouble whatsoever decimating in this motorsportsport so clearly overrun with unskilled drivers in self-driving cars that can't hold a candle to Jesse James drifting figure-8s. If your attitude is truly well-founded, then you will have no trouble whatsoever achieving a driving record that will quickly earn you the "factory sponsorship" you need to feel comfortable slamming cars into barriers one after another. Seriously, your words of "wisdom" are empty without at least a shred of objective merit. And so far you have displayed none.

If the concept or function of an e-brake in drifting eludes you that much, then you can at least consider for yourself that you may not know as much about drifting as you think you do. If you are wrong about the "tractor brake", perhaps you would be wise to consider what ELSE you could be wrong about.

Derrick