broke91firebird

Hi all, I have a 1991 firebird base. Right now it's completely stock but I'm looking to do a bunch of upgrades to it this winter. I have already decided on SFC's and a full rear suspension(Rear control arms,weld in Rear control arm relocation kit, panhard bar, torque arm, torque arm relocation kit) replacement from UMI as well as a wonder bar and 3 point strut tower brace. The question is what else should I be looking for? Eventually the car will have a 3.8 with a beefed up T5 behind it. End result is (hopefully) a 11 to 12 second car on the quarter mile.

However I love driving my 'Bird so any setup requires that it be road worthy as well. I drive mainly WI back roads so there are bumps and hills and such. I would love a setup that will allow me to tear through the corners. Budget wise I will have enough time to save up whatever is necessary. I was planning on getting all tubular front end parts but several articles on this forum point those out as strip only.

This is my first serious custom build so any and all tips and pointers are welcome.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

Forgot shocks wheels and tires, you will see a lot more improvement with these parts.

Also make sure the steering linkage is all in good shape, replace as needed, balljoints and sway bar links too.

paul_huryk

Phil is correct - if you were to go with say koni yellows and an aggressive 275-40-17 tire, your car would get the most bang for the buck easily.

broke91firebird

Crap! You're right I totally did forget about those. Thanks for reminding me.

Thanks for the info. So everything else I have sounds good then?

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Sway bars, will help quite a bit. The 91 and up GTA bars work really good with the Guldstrand springs. Bilstein HD struts work well with those springs. Used to be able to get a set of custom valved rear nil steins from Steve Zaino for these cars but I am not sure they are available, otherwise there is a stock car blistien shock for our car that works well in the rear. If you do this with the other improvements you are talking about your car will handle about as well as any good race car. It will also need a proper alignment.

Base91

iTrader: (1)

Another thing to consider is the steering wheel attachment. You. How good a driver are you? Can you drive your car at the limit as it is? What you want to do sounds great but if you can't drive near the car's limit now you may be going a lot faster when you discover you can't.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Strip or Road Race car? A 3.8 won't go 11 or 12 unless you throw a massive turbo on there.

If it's road race, then for suspension, get:

1) Koni Yellows
2) adjustable strut mounts (hotpart, UMI, SPOHN, or founders work)
3) New MOOG steering linkage if it's not been replaced already
4) Depending on how low you want to go, there are many methods that work well, such as extended ball joints, lowering springs, cutting stock MOOG replacement springs, etc. Make sure not to go too low and be careful with lowering too much with soft springs that lower the front roll center, because that could actually hurt handling.
5) Depending on how your car reacts to all the other mods, either bigger or smaller sway bars. And get poly bushings and end links
6) Wonderbar if you don't have one already (I don't think you do because you car doesn't come with one stock)
7) If you are looking to spend more to go a bit more advanced, you could get a solid joint steering shaft, better steering box, bump steer kit, etc.)
8) A better street/road race alignement
9) Adjustable torque arm (you aren't making much power with that engine so tranny mounted TQ arm should be okay).
10) Adjustable panhard bar with poly/spherical bushings combo
11) adjustable lower control arms with poly/spherical bushings combo (depending on how low you go, relocation bracket to make the bar as flat as possible, with the chassis mount ever so slightly higher than the rearend mount side)
12) Posi traction rear end will help in the turns
13) If you are experiencing too much oversteer you can try lowering the panhard bar with panhard bar relocation brackets in the rear, but this gets complicated and you probably wouldn't need it.
14) Subframe connectors are a must. I have two types; the inner AND outer style. This reinforces the frame even more than just one or the other. The inner style however hangs lower than the outer but on my car the exhaust sits slightly lower anyway so it doesn't matter to me and my car is not THAT low anyway to have any issues.
15) And also, if you are talking about handling, weight transfer and weight balance is important too.. Relocating things like the battery to the rear, mounting things LOWER the lower the center of gravity anywhere on the car, helps. Using lightweight components (without getting too crazy) helps too. Every little bit counts. These cars are nose heavy, so removing weight HIGH UP and UP FRONT are the best ways to reduce weight.
16) Good wheels and tires.. Paul mentioned the 245/45/17 wheels (he sells nice lightweight ones that fit perfect on our cars, no adapters needed) and you can get some nice tires in that size. If I didn't like my IROC wheels so much I'd buy those lol.

Maybe there are things I forgot?

A V6 and T5 are VERY light compared to an all-iron V8 with 700R4. Your car has good potential to handle well if built properly.

Personally I would like an all aluminum V8 (LS1,2,3,6,7) with a beefed up lightweight T5/T6 to handle the power, backed up by a midwest chassis lightweight but indestructible rear-end. That would be one of the lightest, strongest and fastest engine/tranny/rearend combos (that could actually make good power and last). Good luck!

broke91firebird

Thank you. Ya, the 11 to 12 second time is a few years away yet. As far as 'strip or road race' goes, a little of both. I want a car that runs well at the strip when I can make it out there(both WI drag strips are over 2 hours from me) but isn't so stiff that I can't drive it every day. This year the goal is to get a 3.8 in it and drivable by the end of the coming winter. In the up-coming years it will get a supercharger and be bored out and filled with chromemoly goodies. The wonder bar is on the itinerary for later this year, once I start getting my bigger summer paychecks.
I'm not looking to lower the car much unless I have to. My last 1991 was about 2 inches lower than my current one and I had tons of trouble with driveways in my area.
One thing I noticed is that no one is suggesting tubular a-arms of k-member. Are these unnecessary on a street car, or do they simply not help that much? Does anyone know if Pontiac made a stock 17" wheel? My car is being built as a sleeper, so It must appear stock from the outside.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Supercharger is cool, some people do that vs. a bigger NA engine.

I didn't want to lower mine too much simply for that reason, roads around here are steep, bumpy and full of potholes.

I have tubular a-arms and the stock K-member. The tubular a-arms caused some issues for me, but UMI came out with a more street friendly version with indexing and bump stops, steering stops, etc. but I have their older version. They don't do much except provide with already installed bushings of your choice plus a new ball joint. The tubular k-member doesn't do much but make room for things like turbos, headers, etc. But both tubular components are supposedly "stiffer" but for the most part they reduce weight (the aarms reduced 5lbs of unsprung weight and the k-member somewhere in the range of 20-25lbs).

paul_huryk

I would suggest that you look into springs that lower your car about 1" and feature higher rates than stock - Eibach and Global west offer them.

A-arms and crossmember are a great idea - just ordered a set of UMI FCA myself. Even though both are heavy and can be improved upon - bang for your buck on them is not as good as say a TQ arm or a set of 17" wheels and tires. They both reduce weight and reduce deflection.

Pontiac did not make 17" wheels for the f-bodies until the 4th gen cars.

You can run 16" factory wheels, but there are no real summer patterns to choose from (I can name 3) for handling performance.

I would suggest that you seriously look at a 17" x 9.5" wheel to mount a 275-40-17 sized tire. This offers a huge jump in grip and handling for your car, regardless of other suspension modifications.

Check this article on thirdgenblog: http://thirdgenfbody.wordpress.com/2...eptember-2003/

broke91firebird

I'm about 98% sure that I can handle the car with these upgrades. I know for a fact that the car as it currently is can't handle cutting the corners too well. I have found a couple of times the extreme limits of my 'bird and lived to tell the tail.


Thanks for the info, though the brace mounted torque arm is a must for me. The current tranny mount is about toast with the 3.1 int he car. And I destroyed 2 tranny mounts in the previous car the 3.1 came out of.

broke91firebird

So right now for the suspension side I have this as my list.
Tubular RCA's and track bar
RCA relocation kit
tubular torque arm
torque arm relocation bracket w/ drive shaft loop
koni yellow shocks
tubular A-arms and K-frame
Guildstrand springs
battery relocation kit
Moog steering linkage
wonder bar
strut tower reinforcement bar
sub-frame connectors
alignment
new ball-joints and tie-rods
new wheels and tires

Anything else I missed?

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Taking the torque arm off the tranny will help to prevent tearing up rubber tranny mounts, but I'm surprised that it's happening with a 3.1 ? Try using poly mounts (although alot of people including myself had experienced some vibrations.. some more than others, with these more rigid mounts.. I think the main thing is to get the pinion angle correct with an adjustable torque arm.. The crossmember mounted torque arm will transmit more vibrations to the chassis though, so that is something to consider).

I would get extended ball joints if you are going to be replacing yours.. They lower the car anyway (a better way than lowering springs) and raise the roll center which makes the front roll less in the turns and you will have better transition response. If you want to lower overall let's say 1", I would recommend a 0.5" extended ball joint, with a lowering spring of 0.5" as well, that way the extended ball joint will offset the drop of roll center caused by the lowering spring (lowering springs change the angle of the a-arm lowering the roll center, but extended ball joints raise the roll center, so it makes up for it)..

I think tubular a-arms and k-member are a bit overkill for your car unless you plan on seriously racing it or seriously modding it all out, those are usually the last things people do as suspension/chassis upgrades.

paul_huryk

I'm not sure you can get any Guldstrand f-body parts anymore - I spoke to them late last year about bushings and they mentioned that they had nothing really in stock and that Dick was selling the business...

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

To add to your list, you wrote Battery relocation kit, which will help weight distribution, but make sure to get a sealed Optima type battery (regular batteries will emit harmful gasses so having that inside the car would be bad for your health and might even be flammable if enough is built up..). I have an Optima Red Top battery and it works good.. The Yellow Top has more "juice" but is heavier and bigger, and unless you're running a big sound system or lots of electronics, the Red Top is good enough. The positive cable is a 2 gauge and it's big enough. I used a BMR battery tray that goes in the space of the spare tire (mine is too old anyway, so that's where I mounted mine) but I had to add custom brackets because it wobbled a bit.

broke91firebird

That's a bummer. OK ill scratch those off and find some race inspired .5" drop springs anyone able to suggest a good company?

@hellz_wings

That ball joint idea is a good idea, that I'm gonna steal Lol. Hey I was looking at your pics on your site, What kind of sub-frame ties are you running there? And What is that that bar across the rear end? I am planning on more crazy mods in the future. The tubular k-member and a-arms are an upgrade for next year at the earliest. I was simply stating the total suspension list I have. Though I might need the K-frame sooner depending on how the 3.8 fits with the headers. The little bit of extra vibrations I would get won't be a big problem for me. I abuse my third gen probably far more then most, so that's how I tear the mounts.

broke91firebird

Wow, . Hadn't thought of that. I won't be running big sound systems or heavy electronics so the red top will be great. I've used my spare too many times to remove it, but maybe I could put it under the locking tray on the driver's side.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

Global West Del-A-Lum A-arm bushings.

broke91firebird

What exactly is the point of the Del-A-Lum's? I've seen them in other threads but none with good explanations of what they are for.

plum92_camaro

They are front lower control arm or a arm bushings. They have no bind, deflection. Very streetable and still rigid enough for performance. I have them in mine.

blacksunshine'91

iTrader: (10)

I have the Del-a-lums also. Pricey, but I love 'em.

broke91firebird

Oh, ok cool. Thanks I'll add them to my list.

Stewie

I don't see heavier sway bars on your list. After installing struts & shocks, I installed 36 mm front & 23 mm rear sway bars. I installed the wonder bar at the same time as the new front sway bar since the bolts on the sway bar bushings also hold the wonder bar to the chassis. That alone, made a huge difference in handling. Here is a link to my post describing the impact on handling of those mods:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...-handling.html

New tires also made a nice difference in handling. My bird is so much more fun to drive and feels so much more stable in dry and wet conditions. And, cranking through the corners is a blast.

Sub frame connectors are next on my suspension (chassis stability) list, but I can't imagine they will make as much difference as the heavier sway bars.

broke91firebird

Ya that is another thing I forgot to put on there. Though I was figuring on seeing how the car felt first.

Stewie

I've used the same approach. Make improvements as time and money permit. Sometimes just as I'm getting ready to make some fun mods, something will break and I'll have to focus on a repair. My bird is my daily driver and I need to keep it running.

BTW, installing a 3.8 requires major modifications and fabrications. Have you considered making performance modifications on the 3.1, different heads, cam, etc. Maybe install a turbo. Or you could go with a 1993-1994 (early 1995) 3.4L built up engine. The 2.8, 3.1, and 3.4 are basically the same engines with little bit different bores and strokes. The 3.4 will fit the 3.1 motor mounts and even use the 3.1 electrical system.

Installing a 3.8 will require some serious planning and fabrication to make it fit and run. It would seem to me that building up a 3.4 would be a much easier route to getting a high hp power plant. There are guys on this board who've gotten several hundred horses out of 3.1 and 3.4 engines. Just a thought.

Either way, please keep us informed of your progress including pics.

broke91firebird

Ya I've seen some of the AMAZING things guys here do with the 3.1 and 3.4 though I won't be building my 3.1 since its got upwards of 400,XXX on it. I am looking forward to the challenge of fitting the 3.8 plus the added reliability the 3.8 offers. I will make sure to take lots of pics for everything I do from this point on.

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

That's a damn shame, I tried lots of stuff befor trying those springs. It was like touching the car with a magic wand. I will have to dig up some video of my last autocross. I almost stayed more level than some of the purpose built A-mod cars. If you have seen a regular fbody in action you will understand that is a far cry from the wallowing stock setup.

Stewie

Let's see, you've got a 3.1 with 400k miles & you're looking for an engine with more "reliability." Just kidding. I understand your wanting a challenge and a stock engine with more hp. Looking forward to your progress reports.

paul_huryk

Not surprising since Dick is well into his 70's and hasn't been so active in racing he last 15 years or so. His early Corvettes were hardcore and would probably be competitive these days.

Actually I have his front springs still in my Camaro - worked great and there was no reason to change them...

broke91firebird

Ya maybe "stronger" instead of "relaible" would have been a better choice. Actually the EPA rates the 95 firebirds with the 3.8 as being about 3-4 mpg better than our cars stock.

SlickTrackGod

Guldstrand's health has unfortunately faded severely the last couple of years and my father says he is not doing well (I have not talked to him in about 2 years now).

I should not say this but the springs he packagaed are nothing other than re labeled Moog springs. They are nothing extra special, just the correct range of spring rates and balance like most all others do as well (GW, Hotchkis, etc) at the time. They find something out of a current application that crossover works, and simply repaint and relabel them- its very common practice. They are generally not custom made.

The leading edge right now is the Hypercoil DTR conventional springs. They are the hot ticket- use them with Afco swivel cup weight jacks and thet really is the ultimate setup right now

SlickTrackGod

And this is the perfect example why people should take what others say on the internet with a grain of salt. The quotes from this link postings make no logical sense... It is quite humorous though-
{"One weekend, I installed a wonder bar and 36 mm front sway bar. It greatly increased the front end handling around curves. But, with the stock 17 mm rear sway bar, the rear end was real squirrely. In hard corners, the rear kept trying to pass the front. Just a little scary.

Last weekend, it wasn't raining and I finally had time to pull the new 23 mm rear sway bar out of the wrapper and bolt it in place.

After finishing the job, I took it for an aggressive test drive. WOW!!! I mean WOW!!! Huge difference in handling and stability. The front goes around sharp curves exactly where I point it and the rear end grips the road and follows. "}

rawley2

Are you trying to say that after I get done with my suspension I'm not going to be able to run down an F1 car.

SlickTrackGod

lol, but the quote was in reference to his car being way loose with the rear end squirrely having the 36mm font/17mm rear bars, then miraculously handling like a dream with the 36/23 combo. Not hardly, its the exact opposite. Goes to show that bolt on part reveiws are solely in 99% of peoples head when they actually are in reality performing much worse.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I was talking with this guy this weekend at the track. He sometimes runs a 19 bar with #250 springs in rear - and is considering #300 next year. Custom PHB relocate but body-side stock per rules.

The Porsche guy wiped out before lunch on Sat. That will ruin the weekend event. That wheel assembly is torn off and just placed there - OUCH!

rlewi771

I have tried multiple rear sway bars and it's my opinion that no rear sway bar works the best with our solid rear axles.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

What rear spring w/delete?

rlewi771

250's right now, and same as the other guy, i think i'll pick up some 300's to give a try at the next event.

plum92_camaro

I haven't installed my rear springs yet but i have 250# rear springs. Ground control insisted on the higher rate for the extra weight of my stereo and dynamat. I will give the stock 21mm rear sway bar a go with them when i get them in. I'm curious how they will ride on the streets and handle on the track.

jaybdaboat

Wow I'm glad I read this. I was just about to put my battery under my 2 12s in the well.

plum92_camaro

I don't mean to hijack this thread but how? My two 12's and box fill the well.

jaybdaboat

Mine face down in the rear well. For security reasons but it adds bass

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Yeah don't run a regular wet battery inside the car - ever. Only sealed type.. The only I know of are Optima red, yellow, and blue (is for marine applications). Since you have a big stereo, MAYBE you should consider the yellow? Just a suggestion, because the yellows are usually for cars with lots of electronics.

jaybdaboat

Learn something new everyday

SlickTrackGod

Optima batteries are AGM type batteries- however there are different types (I'm a somewhat battery expert since I own an RV) Most AGM (Absorbed glass mat) batteries are what is known as "house batteries" or deep cycle batteries. They are designed to cycle from fully charged to almost empty many many times.

Witht hat said, the Optima batteries are unique becasue they are made up of spiral mat cells rather than individual plates. These spiral cells will release energy quicker for a startup type battery rather than a low ennergy/long resurve house type battery. A house battery has larger thicker plates or mats, whereas a starter battery has many thinner mat plates that release energy quicker.

Now to the skinny-

Optima Red Tops are fine as long as you never accidently run them below about 10.5 volts. They are not designed to accept fast charges becasue they will kill the thinner spiral cells on rapid charging. Your altenator is too high a charge rate if they go below about 10.5 and you "jump start" the car and let the Alt quickly recharge it--very bad- you should ALWAYS trickle charge it back up to 12 volts rather than getting a jumpstart.

Optima Yellowtops are a much more hearty battery with a little thicker plates that will accept a faster charge without damage. Blue tops are even more so where they can bee stored without use the longest and still hold a charge, but they will never release alot of energy and will struggle on a high compression engine starting it in comparison to a yellow or red top.

I would really only recommend a yellowtop, but if you have a redtop, just heed my warning and never fast charge it if it slips low.

On a last note, none of these Optima Batteries are worth a crap for RV house use even thought the yellow top claims to be a "Deep Cycle" battery. It really is just a deepcycling starter battery, not a traditional deep cycle house battery.

I run a yellowtop as a starter battery in my RV, but I run a specialty AGM thick plate 110mah battery in the house portion of my RV ad it will run lights and the heater blower in it all night long without the generator. THe yellowtop would be dead in about 1/5th the time, and the Redtop would last 2-3 charges and then be killed as a house battery.

My RV also has a built in charging unit in it that when I plug in shore power it keeps the house battery always on a trickle charge- that keeps the battery active inside and makes it last about 10 years even when not hardly used. If I did not have it pulgged in it would last about 2-3 years.

So now you know batteries

ps- a good Marathon (marathin is a top brand name RV battery) in aobut 100-110 mah costs about $400. They aren;t cheap. Neither are the Optima batteries at about $175