When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
Originally Posted by superccs
This is a wild post.... and thank you WhitedevilTA for bringing this to our attention.
If you have the wrong part in there what is the symptom?
My Bird is binding up when parking or U-turns...? Is this due to the center link in backwards issue or could it be some moogly idle arms?
I never got any binding, I just couldn't get my centerlink straight and inline with the A arms. I would check elsewhere, but you never know. It's worth checking out either way.
Re: Guys with terrible straight line steering, LEND ME YOUR EARS! possible fix insid
Bringing this one back form the dead. Have you ever measured the center to center length of the idler and pitman arms? I measured mine and found the idler (moog) is 6 1/8 and pitman 6 7/16, I was curious at what the length of the A/C Delco is in comparison. Also the RH tie rod is further away from the K-Mermber than the LH due to the different lengths of the idler and pitman arms. I know you have the new Corvette setup now not sure if you kept the old parts, if not maybe someone else on this thread that has done the A/C Delco swap can chime in?
Originally Posted by whitedevilTA
Here you go gentlemen. Received my AC delco idler arm, PN 45C1065 and compared it to the moog PN K6249. The proof is in the pudding...the moog is obviously a wrongly designed part and is not correct for our cars. Some people have told me they got there's to work and the center link to be level, however it still doesn't mean it is a correct part with correct geometry as can be seen in the pictures.
Two things to note are that the mounting holes to the chassis are at different heights, and the arm itself on the moog drops down farther. Unacceptable. Please be aware for future purchases all, and I highly recommend sticking with AC delco on at least your idler arm.
Any chance we can maybe get a sticky out of this one mods? I can see it being very useful for future use, especially considering the popularity of moog parts as replacements on these cars.
Stock pitman arm on left, AC delco idler arm in center, moog idler arm on right
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
I did actually notice that as well with the moog, and most of the cause of that is due to it again being a different angle drop than the pitman arm. I never measured the AC delco unit, but I do remember by eyeballing it that both sides looked like mirror images after I installed it, and both tie rods did appear to be equal lengths from the K-member.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
Thanks for the reply I guess I'll be getting the A/C Delco idler as well.
Originally Posted by whitedevilTA
I did actually notice that as well with the moog, and most of the cause of that is due to it again being a different angle drop than the pitman arm. I never measured the AC delco unit, but I do remember by eyeballing it that both sides looked like mirror images after I installed it, and both tie rods did appear to be equal lengths from the K-member.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
Has anyone tried the Proforged idler arm? I've considered ordering their steering kit but skeptical about the idler arm. I guess I can buy it and see if not!
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
I bought mine a couple of years ago (AC/Delco), and finally installed it along with new springs (Moog 5662), and replaced the ball joints, inner/outer tie rods, and center link (Moog). The only thing I didn't replace was the Pitman arm.
Sorry I didn't get around to doing it sooner, because it drives like a different car.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
I finally got around to installing my proforged idler arm. It's a very nice part but it's wrong! Been talking with them and I'll update this if I hear any good news.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
Originally Posted by grngryoutmyway
This is true. Moog is owned by Federal Mogul. It looks like FM supplies two different idler arms. The cheaper MRC line through NAPA is incorrect as well, and probably the same that is coming in the Moog box. The premium NCP one is correct and the same as what is coming in the AC Delco box.
Sorry I forgot to follow up on this.
Yes the NAPA NCP 268-3635 is correct and the same as the AC Delco part. It looks like it is in short supply as well. Federal Mogul has been upside down for over a year due to some warehousing changes. Hopefully they get it together soon.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
The ac delco part number is the only thing correct about the box. It's still napa piece, which is WRONG. I ordered another from amazon which actually came in a ac delco box and it was still the wrong part. Looks like you have an incorrect arm. Here are some pics of a correct one and the one you have. Proforged quit replying to my emails after I sent these pics. I guess they have no interest in making the right part either. Seems as if EVERYONE is getting the same part from 1 manufacturer
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
I just installed a Proforged Idler Arm on my GTA last week and compared it to the 100% factory idler arm. I noticed no differences in the angle of the arm. The design is bit different, but the arm itself and the fit is spot on...
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
Originally Posted by J.C. Denton
I just installed a Proforged Idler Arm on my GTA last week and compared it to the 100% factory idler arm. I noticed no differences in the angle of the arm. The design is bit different, but the arm itself and the fit is spot on...
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
I don't know yet, car is still in storage until early June. But my 92 has the complete Spohn steering kit, which is indeed the Proforged Kit with their custom made tie rod adjusters. Feels a bit stiffer and tighter, but the difference is not as extreme as someone may think. But all parts are absolutely quality parts. I installed the kit 4 years ago and until today no signs of rust. But my GTA has only 20k mls on the odo and is 99% original, only the idler arm had that little bit too much play for german TÜV (technical inspection we have to undergo every 2 years by law), so I ordered the Proforged part because I know it fits and it is a qualitiy part. Too bad I didn't take any pictures for you guys for comparison...
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
Originally Posted by J.C. Denton
I just installed a Proforged Idler Arm on my GTA last week and compared it to the 100% factory idler arm. I noticed no differences in the angle of the arm. The design is bit different, but the arm itself and the fit is spot on...
Post measurements of your old one because both proforged ones I have were wrong. Your old one may have been replaced with an incorrect one at some point. Heres how I measured my old one and the new ones
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
Originally Posted by 89******bird
I just bought a proforged arm, it is over 2" so it's "wrong".
I'm going to order an AC Delco and compare.
Save yourself the trouble and dont order a ac delco idler either. I ordered 2 different ac delcos from 2 different places and both were wrong. Maybe check a local GM dealer first? I never tried that yet
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
I notice there is a ton of up/down adjustment in the frame slot for the idler arm, isn't there enough to adjust the "wrong" arm up higher to compensate?
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
Originally Posted by 89******bird
I notice there is a ton of up/down adjustment in the frame slot for the idler arm, isn't there enough to adjust the "wrong" arm up higher to compensate?
Sort of. If the arm "height" to the pivot is not the same as the pitman arm on the steering box, then the arm is going to throw off the geometry for the entire steering system. It isn't a lot, and most people will probably never even notice, but it is changing it whether you move the arm up or not.
Can you post a measurement on the idler you got? "looks" can be deceiving since your eyes really aren't calibrated.
**EDIT** It's funny that the board has mullet as a forbidden word, so it ***'s out your name in the quotation, lol
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
It's the correct one, I've looked at several of these that I've purchased over the last month. There are only 2 different castings out there, the original and the copycat. You can tell by the wide casting mark along the side that it's the original casting. It's about 1" less drop than the copycat arms.
I installed the new arm and was able to get the centerlink parallel to the car. I never tried the copycat arm, but the 2 drill holes actually match up pretty close to the original arm, but even if you get the centerlink level I wouldn't trust the geometry is correct while turning.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
ACDelco as a rule doesn't make most of their own parts, some are honest GM, but a lot are just rebranded stuff from another vendor. Also (especially with Rock Auto) you have vendors that "rebrand" the entire inventory of a part on the shelf during a store closing, buy out, whatever, where they will take all existing inventory with an old branded box, and rebox them with the new brand or franchise name on the box.
The ACDelco idler on Rock Auto, the picture I mean, is a McQuay-Norris part. Same picture on M-N website. Not sure who sells their products now, or if their current idler is correct, but it might be worth looking into.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
Yeah, I read that the current item Rock Auto is shipping is incorrect. If the item in the photo is correct, try to find someone selling the McQuay Norris idler, since that's what's in the picture.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
I bought the idler arm available at Autozone and it is the correct arm... part no FA1399. It has the lower 1.5 inch drop that matches the pitman arm.
I had been driving around the last few years with the incorrect arm I had gotten when I ordered a performance front end rebuild kit (can't remember where). The steering never felt right. It felt like it was binding and the outside tire would drag on hard turns. What a difference once I replaced it yesterday. Much more natural feel to the steering, better return to center....So glad I found the part and made the switch. Tossed that other one right in the trash....
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
Here's another one for the list.
Picked up a few of these as a wholesale closeout last week. They were listed as Raybestos 4501065, all the packaging is Dana/Spicer. Actual part is the same as the ACDelco 45C1065 pictured on Rock Auto, or the McQuay Norris FA1399E on the MN website. The same part is pictured on the NAPA website as the more expensive option. FWIW.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
I completely forgot to take pictures when I did it, but I picked up a new old AIM FA1399 idler arm off eBay. Matches up with all the other "correct" idler arms I'm seeing here. I replaced an original with nearly 180k miles on it. Pretty tedious trying to align these things by yourself laying on your back.
These are the pictures swiped from the eBay listing:
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
Ok - I gotta ask, Can one rebuild an Idler Arm for our specific machines? I see a big nut looking thing that makes me think it may be possible, and possibly designed for rebuilding.
Last edited by LiquidBlue; 07-07-2019 at 12:50 PM.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
AFAIK no. The thing that wears out is the joint where the arm pivots on the bracket, which is sorta crimped over at the factory, with a xx,xxx ton press.
The nut out at the end is actually associated with the center link.
Personally I don't think the "drop" thing makes the slightest difference. As long as the axis (the fixed part) is the same, and the arc length is the same, and it can be adjusted to where the center link is level, it's all the same. Basic high school geometry. As long as the arc at the end with the CL joint swings through is the same, then … it's the same.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
Yeah I don't see any reason why the drop makes a difference either. The original factory one is "wrong" if you look at it that way. However if you look at the OP's issue, you'll see that the mounting holes were higher on the "wrong" Moog part compared to the older "correct" made in USA one. There should be enough adjustment for that to not matter, but it could vary car to car.
Since these parts tend to all be clones or even made in the same factories (especially when they have the same part numbers) I opted to look for an older "correct" made in USA one for mine. Ended up being cheaper anyways.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
The version in the blowup is not quite like ours... ours AFAIK are all the sintered ball & forged socket type of thing with the socket cold-crimped over the ball.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
Originally Posted by sofakingdom
The version in the blowup is not quite like ours... ours AFAIK are all the sintered ball & forged socket type of thing with the socket cold-crimped over the ball.
I stole that off a site that rebuilds them. I had emailed them earlier to see if they can rebuild ours. will let you know if they respond back with an answer.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
My factory one wore out back in about 88 or so; LONG time ago. But I don't recall it raising or lowering anything. It pretty much just rotated in an arc around the axis created by the piece that bolted to the "frame". First time I changed it, I knew I should scribe marks on the "frame" so I could put it back, but the new "frame" piece wasn't exactly the same. I ended up just adjusting it with an angle gauge to make the plane of its arc identical to the Pitman arm's arc, and to make the center link perfectly parallel to the line connecting the control arm bolts. Pretty much, just basic high school geometry. Dayummm, that was a long time ago... I bet ABUNCHA the people reading this thread weren't even born yet back then... nonetheless, it worked fine, and for acoupla more replacements after that, over a period of all these years and probably 300k miles on that poor work truck.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
It's not like it's a 1" thread pitch, you wouldn't notice it screwing in and out as it moved unless you looked for it. Wish I had kept mine to disassemble and take pictures, but I wasn't exactly happy to see it after I was finally done replacing it and junked it. Looks like someone disassembled theirs and had it zinc plated in another post in this thread like I thought: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ml#post6016837
My particular car was "born" just a few months before me.
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
The factory piece found on later cars has a nut on the bottom of the pivot. There's at least one shown earlier in the thread.
I've never bothered trying to take one apart. In my experience, they're usually caked in dirt and old grease, and when you hold one in your paw it's obviously a light duty part. Every decent thirdgen I've owned with any miles has already had that junk replaced. You can still spot them on extreme low mileage cars, and on beaters that no one has cared about since they were a few years old. I've got one out in the refuse pile. Mostly just threw it in the pile instead of the trash so when I get around to reassembling the new steering linkage, I can refer back to the old tie rods to get a baseline of measurements.
I think the concern with the "other" designed idlers is that they make it difficult or impossible to properly level the centerlink. IDK, I was keeping an eye out because I'm building my Firebird project from the ground up with all new parts. Why not get the style that mirrors the original and isn't potentially going to be a problem?
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
my car in storage for 25 years. still have factory idler. 65k of mostly highway miles on it. happy to post photos when i can. no idea if it is good or not. but front end steering is my next project. it’s sloppy, so sumptn wrong. could just be front shock change and no alignment. or could be i’m used to my other modern day super car. control arm bushings “look” solid. sway arm bushings have seen better days. will stay tuned for any info you guys can come up with. it’s happening soon!
Re: BEWARE moog idler arms, and other generic brands - they are incorrect for these c
Originally Posted by rburrow87
I was under the impression that the factory one is actually on threads. I noticed it would raise and lower when turning it.
It is. Mine was unscrewing slightly as it turned, and that was causing slop. I tried tightening the nut on the bottom but couldn't get it to work, so I just replaced it.
11-08-2017, 12:04 PM
