whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

EDIT: Changed title to more reflect body of thread

I have to make this news go big for myself and for all third gen guys that have suffered with bad straight line tracking all these years. I believe I may have found a big part of the issue.

Years ago when finishing my car, I put an advance auto store brand idler arm on my car. The steering has sucked ever since. Fast forward to now where I had to replace my center link. Figured while I was at it, I'd put on a nice moog idler arm because I wanted something higher quality on there. My center link was very off, hanging about 3/4-1" lower on the pass side than the drivers side, and that was as far as I could get the idler arm up in the factory slots. This was with both the old advance auto idler and the moog idler. After ripping half my hair out, I FINALLY found the issue. THE AFTERMARKET IDLER ARMS ARE NOT CORRECT FOR OUR CARS!!!

If you know steering at all, you will understand that if the pitman arm off the gear box and the idler arm are not mirror images of each other, the steering geometry will be terrible, and you will have awful bumpsteer issues. Very apparent especially while trying to keep the car straight on uneven roads. After getting two identical idler arms from two different companies, I feared that my BMR K-member was tweaked, or even that my cars subframe itself was tweaked. I picked up a used pitman arm and compared it to mine just to make sure it wasn't bent, and it was not. I then held the used pitman arm up to both my aftermarket idler arms, and low and behold, the angle difference was drastic! Luckily my brother had a 92 camaro in the driveway, so I went out and held my pitman arm up to the idler arm on his camaro, and the angle was exact!

So here's the deal...Moog part number K6249 idler arm is WRONG, as well as advance auto's brand which I believe is DW-K6249. There's another company that sells a high end replacement called rare parts, and I believe theirs is wrong as well. I've included pics to show you guys the difference, and I encourage all of you with bad straight line steering to go look under your cars right now. If the center link is not straight in line with the A-arm bolts, and it looks like the idler arm side drops down farther than the pitman arm side, YOU HAVE A WRONG IDLER ARM.

Anybody that has found a replacement that actually is the correct one, please post up the brand and part number if you can. Lets get this issue resolved ASAP, because this will absolutely cause a car to steer badly.

-Found AC delco part number 45C1065 is a 100% correct fit

Pic 1 is the angle difference of the stock pitman arm vs the aftermarket idler arm. Pic 2 is showing how uneven my center link is with the moog idler arm. Look at where the inner tie rods mount compared to the A-arm bolts and you will see it's a solid 3/4" or more lower on the pass side. Pic 3 shows you where both the pitman arm and moog idler arm sit in relation to the sway bar. The moog idler arm is up as high as it can go, yet still drops down much lower than the pitman arm where it mounts to the center link.

thtanner

iTrader: (1)

Also running a K6249, and have pretty crappy strait line tracking. All suspension components were replaced with Moog. I was going to re-adjust the steering box and replace the steering shaft with a Astro van one to help alleviate it

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

The astro shaft is a nice upgrade, as I am running one myself. But after that and a $1200 delphi 600 race gearbox, my steering still sucked. I am basically 100% positive this idler arm issue will completely rid the terrible straight line tracking, as I know I am getting bad bump steer. I would bet anything you have the same issue considering you used a moog. Have you had a chance to check out the centerlink to see if it is in fact not straight?

plum92_camaro

I replaced all my steering linkage in '13 with all moog. My center link is level and car drives fine. My toe setting made more of a difference than anything. When I adjust my caster (-2.5*) for autoX, it automatically gives me more of a toe out than normal and makes it wander a bit to and from the track. I know the negative camber can also cause some wandering but when I return everything back to street specs (3/32 toe in, -.5*) it drives fine again. I've run stock 245/50R16's and 255/50R16 Toyo R888s. I bought some 17x9.5 ZR1's with 275/40R17's but I haven't driven on them yet.

You have my attention though with your find. I'll have to check my car next time I'm under there. My OE steering linkage is still in my scrap metal can so I can compare also.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Please post back up after you do compare them. My center link is so far off with these idler arms I couldn't even get it close to straight. There is no possible way the idler arms are correct. If your center link is in fact straight and inline with the A-arm bolts, now I'm wondering if this is a boxing error from the factory. Still doesn't explain how I received two identical wrong idler arms from two different companies over a 4 year span! I also noticed that on rockauto's website, almost every idler arm they offer besides the AC delco has the part number designation of "6249" but with different letters. To me, that means every company shares the molds and most likely every idler arm with that part designation number is wrong.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

pic shows factory Camaro idler arm on right (of my 92 Z28)

idler arm on left is a replacement. AC Delco part. picked up years ago for back up parts.. also plated

Different shape.. but on the same plane..when bolted up.


also with a factory pitmen arm

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

EXCELLENT! Thanks a ton for the picture. Basically confirms that the AC delco part is correct. I can tell just by looking at the picture that the curve in the arm on that piece is much less extreme than the moog part. I will be ordering the AC delco idler arm tonight. When I get it, I'll post a comparison picture of it next to the moog. Thanks again buddy!

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

my factory arm can be broke down in the 2 pieces by hand..
(upper and lower unscrew)...the new GM part you can not take down..(funny)

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I've heard the factory piece unscrews. Not sure why no aftermarket version is made like that, but I'm assuming that a tighter tolerance can be achieved with a bushing assembly over the screw style that GM used. However as for longevity, not sure if a bushing style would last as long and remain tight.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

I can tell you my 48.000 mile OEM idler arms has 0 play and still seems like new...
off the car for plating. and upgrades...

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Just spoke with a technician at moog and explained to him the issue with their idler arm. I told him I have pictures and everything showing how it's a wrongly designed part, and he basically told me the cars are too old for them to bother redesigning it. I asked him if there was anybody higher up that I could e-mail the pictures too and that it was pretty apparent from them that it was incorrect, and he said that they wouldn't do anything anyways. LOL, so basically everybody that is reading this thread, DO NOT buy an idler arm from moog.

Onion

Sometimes it makes me wonder why people even try anything else but AC delco

thtanner

iTrader: (1)

I'll change mine out as soon as I get the car back from paint.

Moog is known for quality parts and a good fit. This is rare for them, and the fact they won't adjust their product accordingly is a disappointment.

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

Perhaps the screw type is serviceable. I remember my OE part being that way.Or perhaps GM designed it that way so it backs out in one direction & backs in, in the other.I remember once noticing my linkage move up/down slightly, as the steering went lock/lock.Maybe the screw design compensates for this & the aftermarket design does not.

I'm only guessing though & never gave it it any thought until I read this post.Where are the steering experts?

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Here you go gentlemen. Received my AC delco idler arm, PN 45C1065 and compared it to the moog PN K6249. The proof is in the pudding...the moog is obviously a wrongly designed part and is not correct for our cars. Some people have told me they got there's to work and the center link to be level, however it still doesn't mean it is a correct part with correct geometry as can be seen in the pictures.

Two things to note are that the mounting holes to the chassis are at different heights, and the arm itself on the moog drops down farther. Unacceptable. Please be aware for future purchases all, and I highly recommend sticking with AC delco on at least your idler arm.

Any chance we can maybe get a sticky out of this one mods? I can see it being very useful for future use, especially considering the popularity of moog parts as replacements on these cars.

Stock pitman arm on left, AC delco idler arm in center, moog idler arm on right

Motown

I was days away from ordering all new tie rod ends, tie rod sleeves, idler arm and swaybar bushings for my 85 IROC-Z. I am glad I saw this thread. Thanks a bunch for this info!

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Results are in! The AC delco idler arm is a 100% perfect fit. My centerlink is now within 1/2 millimeter per side which is about as close as it's going to get. The idler arm also now sits in the correct location in front of the sway bar, and the pivot point on the idler arm mirrors the pivot point of the pitman arm.

I'll get driving results after I get an alignment, but it's looking promising so far and the steering geometry should be perfect now.

Nice perfectly level center link and correctly positioned idler arm!

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Glad I could be of some help

peterc005

Bummer, just put Moog Idler Arm and Tie Rod Ends in my project car.

Any change you can post pictures of the steering geometry and possible measurements when installed on the car?

Two words "Product Recall" or "Class Action".

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I plan on returning my moog idler arm and having the local parts store take it back as defective. I'm sure they will.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "post pictures of the steering geometry or measurements?" I did post a few pictures of the new AC delco idler arm installed in my last post. The geometry is basically that the idler arm and pitman arm need to be mirror images of each other, and the "flats" on the center link needs to be the same height in relation to each A-arm bolt. Theres actually a small instruction sheet in with the moog idler arm that explains how to get the center link level.

My issue was that even if you could get the center link straight (which I couldn't), the moog idler arm still has a completely different shape than the pitman arm. It mounts higher up on the chassis yet the arm drops down farther than it's supposed to, making it almost impossible to get the center link straight.

daferris

iTrader: (8)

From the photos its clear they are different. I however just this year have put a white box K6249 arm on my 88 IROC and had no problem getting both sides of the center link to be 17mm below the centerline of the LCA bolts. So really confused why the difference in the arms in the photo...

brett89

Damn !! Just received my moog idler arm from rock auto guess I'll return in exchange for the delco one just to be on the safe side .. Good find

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Just for giggles, put it up next to the factory one and see if its the same or way off like the OPs is.
All my moogs match my factory stuff but they were changed a long time ago.

brett89

I would but my car is in storage when I get delco one I'll compare to the moog one I just got

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

The angle of the drop on the moog may match the factory idler arm closer, but the factory idler arm is a different design and much less bulky. With the design of the moog, the meaty part where the joint is will not clear the sway bar and has to sit above it. It's a crap design like I said, whether it can be made to work or not, and after seeing the fit of the AC delco, it's like it was meant for the car.

I simply could not get my moog to sit where the center link was straight, no matter how high I pushed it up. AC delco went in and in 20 minutes, I had it straight as can be.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Damnit, now I have to see what part came in my Spohn kit. And if it is the wrong part, I'll be asking for some money back.

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

It looks like the NAPA Chassis NCP 268-3635 is the same as the AC Delco part. As in the same piece exactly. It is sourced from Federal Mogul so I assume they are using the same supplier. That is what I am running on mine. I don't remember seeing an issue when I put it in, but I'll double check this weekend.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

I definitely find this interesting. Just in January I replaced inner/outer tie rods, center link, and idler arm with all MOOG stuff from Rock auto. Can't return any of it because i sanded it all down ad painted them gloss black...greased, and installed everything.... oddly with zero.zero issues, the idler arm mounting holes lined up exactly where the factory one had been and I could verify this by the markings on the painted surfaces.. also the center link is dead center and sits dead level. the car tracks dead straight and has no bumpsteer... I'll do a quick examination again once I get back under the car, but when I got the parts in a compared everything to each individual factory part I was removing and nothing stood out as being that far off at all. Thanks for posting, i'll recheck it all... in hopes that somehow nothing needs to be redone.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Thanks for the info! Good to know theres another part thats a better fit than moog, and being from napa it should be readily available.

I can't explain it because some people that use moog seem to get it to work. It just plain didn't in my case. I'm wondering if the fact that I run a tubular K-member may have thrown something off where the moog no longer works correctly? But BMR is known for being very high quality and my suspension seems spot on, ride height is perfectly level, etc. Not sure how to explain it other than AC delco worked, moog didn't lol. This thread was just supposed to be an eye opener to those considering replacing their idler arm in the future. The few pics I have seen of moog idler arms installed definitely looked like they were not sitting correctly from what I could make out.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

the last few boxes I have of diff GM/AC Delco parts also say.. Made in China

I do like factry parts...but a lot of that stuff is farmed out now....
watch your pitmen arms all are stamped diff the 3 I have (+2 +4 +8) ill mic a few out and see what gives

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I replaced my idler arm, inner and outer tie rod ends and center link all at the same time with the AutoZone brand (Duralast) a few years back. I bought the parts in 2007 I'm thinking. I went out and checked and the center link height on both ends and found it to be equal on both sides. The pitman and idler arms seem to match up by looking side to side. So the AutoZone brand at one time had the correct measurements. Maybe they have changed suppliers since and they also have the same problem but someone could give them a look. I know from working there as a manager in college some of their store brand suspension was reboxed Timken and Moog as some of it still had Timken and Moog stamped on it.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

The AC delco idler I just got from rock auto has "made in USA" stamped right on the arm. Box was labeled as USA made as well. Seems to be a solid good quality piece.

I did call the local auto zone but the closest one they could get was a few days out. If I was waiting on a part anyways, I just preferred to order the AC delco which I was positive was correct. But good to know they may use a company that has the correct design for the idler arm.

brett89

I looked last week and rock auto offered the Acdelco idler arms went to order one just now and it doesn't exist on their site .. Guess your thread got a lot of people checking their cars and cleared out rock auto lol

peterc005

Had a look tonight and the trailing link definitely seems lower on the (Moog) tie rod side.

My car is right hand drive.

Guess I've have to find an AC Delco part.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Just to give an update on the topic, I did drive the car finally. It hasn't been aligned yet unfortunately, but I can tell you 100% that even though it's probably toe'd out now, it steers a hundred times better than it ever did. Going straight down the main road by my house which is my "test road," I didn't have to correct the wheel whatsoever. Car is tracking straight as an arrow. I'm sure it can only get better with the toe set correctly. But needless to say, I'm ecstatic. This has been an ongoing issue for 4 years, and I finally feel like I nailed it!

LOL, I'm sure they will hopefully get a restock soon. Rock auto is normally pretty good about inventory in stock! But I hope it is because of the info I posted. Especially after moog basically told me to get lost after explaining the problem in detail and telling them I had pictures to send.

Yes sir, that was exactly how mine looked as well (on the opposite side), and I couldn't get the idler arm adjusted high enough to correct it. The AC delco or an equivalent should fix it for sure. Someone said they thought the NAPA idler arm may be the correct style as well, but I haven't confirmed it yet.

Evanslooten

Well I just took out my steering parts. Have all moog replacement parts: center link, idler arm, inner / outer tie rods and sleeves. I will take a pictures to compare and post if I notice any issues!

Yeah but the NAPA part is $30 more!

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

I checked over mine also which I had installed in january (see my above posts on here).. I guess I got lucky but everything related to the idler arm, lateral and horizontal positioning of the center link, spacing and alignment is absolutley correct. I don't know maybe i got lucky. Maybe it's because I am on 2" drop spindles?? Definitely measures good side to side. Took it and did the alignment at midas. (techs let me back there to set my own caster/camber/toe specs) and evaluated everything with the wheels loaded (not on a 2 post lift) and we are good to go. tracks straight down the road and everything. Glad you mentioned this post and that people can read about it and use the info... but I am even happier that mine wound up correct and i didn't have to pull off and replace any idler arm or components (all MOOG all from rock auto january 2016)

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Sorry but Moog=Federal Mogul

Evanslooten

I just finished installing everything. Maybe it's because I'm such a novice, but I couldn't see the issue you were talking about. I didn't have any clearance issues with the sway bar, and from what I could tell visually, I had room to mount the idler arm above or below the pittman level.

Purchased my parts March 8. Idler arm is MO K6249.

I'll be getting an alignment tomorrow, I'll ask the shop for their opinion.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I'm not sure what the deal is honestly. I'm really wondering if it maybe has something to do with aftermarket tubular K-members possibly shifting the A-arm mounting position from the stock K-member and thats whats not letting the moog piece align everything correctly. As much as I hear of some people getting the moog to work fine, I still HATE the fact that it is not a true mirror image of the pitman arm. It just seems like it has so much potential of screwing up the steering pivot points if it's not aligned 100% evenly. I'm glad to hear some of you are getting it to work, but for my centerlink to be even close to straight I had to jam it up into the slots as high as I could go. Even then, it was sitting above and almost touching the sway bar...and it still would not allow the centerlink to be straight.

t/aws61985

iTrader: (2)

Wow this thread has me worried now. I replaced my whole set up with the kit from spohn. I hope I do not run into any of these problems. I did have to redo my whole front end when i couldn't get the ride height correct (old springs. Had to replace with moog springs. Had to cut out that inner ring on spohns A arms so that they could fit. I REALLY hate how they put that inner ring in. The ramp to index the spring is cool though.) Anyways I dented my oil pan (dont wanna talk about it) so now I gotta fix that before I drive the car.

thtanner

iTrader: (1)

Ordered the last ACDelco idler arm on Amazon. Will post my results after installation/alignment.

Motown

This thread turned into a double edged sword. I learned that I need an AC Delco idler arm but now I have returned from vacation to find that the internet is out of them! My front end rebuild will now be put on hold until then...

brett89

I was told that Acdelco has discontinued the part . I was able to find one locally although not easily done. EBay has some listed same with Amazon

thtanner

iTrader: (1)

eBay has a ton of them.

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

Most of those "AC delco" pieces look more like "GM approved aftermarket", not genuine GM parts.I remember the OE part looking just like the piece posted by Articwhite.

That part has a threaded stud instead of the ball/socket type the aftermarket use.Because of its design the genuine part will move up/down slightly or even "unbolt" from the base.This allows it to move in/out as you steer lock/lock.

I venture to think this has some negative effect if the replacement cannot (by design) do the same. Food for thought.

Note: Classic Ind list both aftermarket & GM.Their GM part # is G6313 ($69.99), but no pic unfortunately.Tempted to buy one, but I want to see it first.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I didn't hear anything about AC delco discontinuing it. Not sure why they would? I don't think it's just a rebadged "approved" aftermarket part...as I said, mine was stamped "made in USA" right on the casting. Seems to be a very high quality part as far as I can tell. It doesn't have the same design as the stocker, but maybe they found a flaw in the stock units design and went to the ball and socket style over the threaded style to improve it. Happens quite often in the aftermarket, but who knows for sure.

Nowhere locally to me had any either, but as was said they are plentiful on ebay. Rock auto also should keep refreshing the stock as they sell out I would imagine.

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

My original was the same design as Artics piece posted above, but the replacement I have looks like all the others posted, no matter the brand.The AC delco part looks no different to me.
Classic does list theirs as GM as opposed to ACdelco, wonder if there's a diff? Gonna give them a call, see if I can get a description.May be all the reason I need, cant hurt to compare.

thtanner

iTrader: (1)

My ACDelco idler arm came in. Looks right.

I should have it on this weekend, or early next week week. I have the week off so time to do some stuff to the car!

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Awesome! Looks just like the one I got. And notice the "made in USA" tag