jrg77

I am trying to figure out what I need to assemble a 400-500 hp engine. I doubt that I will come across all of the money at one time, so I have to buy the parts piecemeal and put them together at the end. I have read some stuff and it seems that it is very important to make sure the parts work together, yet I have not read how to know that going in. This is what I think I want:

Hydraulic roller setup (2500-6500 rpm range with good vaccuum)
Long tube headers into a dual cat y-pipe
True dual oval exhaust tubing into an x-pipe and Spintech mufflers
A/C

The rest of the stuff is up in the air.

The car's purpose is all=around fun. It is a street car that will do highways, autocrosses, open-track days and drag races, in that order. Every 2 years it gets the state sniffer on the tailpipes and gets a clean bill.

What is the appropriate list and order buy the parts? Do I start with a block? New or used? Which one? What after that?

Can you folks help me plan this?

Thanks,
Jason

jrg77

I forgot to mention the engine will use the Q-jet carb, as I know two guys who own dynos and recommend tuning with it.

Jason

ME Leigh

Your going to use a CC Q-jet to make 500hp. I think you need to do some research before even thinking about an engine.

jrg77

From what I've read the Q-jet will support 750 CFM same as the Holley product. Am I missing something?

Jason

ME Leigh

Are we talking computer controlled Q-jet like the one on your car?

Stekman

Theres more to the computer controlled q-jet than just maximum possible CFM. Things like that little ECM.

jrg77

So the computer won't support the hp?

OK, I'm flexible. what else needs to change?

Stekman

It isn't as much about support as it is compatability. The parts needed to make 500+ hp are generally put in the 'not so computer compatable' catagory. With tuning of course, sure, it can be done. But thats extensive tuning. In the long run it would most likely be most beneficial to run a non-cc setup such as a Holley double pumper or Speed Demon carb and a non-cc HEI distributor such as the ones from MSD. They allow for a far greater flexibility when it comes to part selection, specifically, camshaft choice, which is crucial when dealing with higher power figures.

Is this 500 naturally aspirated or 500 forced induction hp?

jrg77

It would be sexy to say forced, but that would mean $3k to go fuel injected and another $4.5k to do the forced air bit, and then doing the engine and pipe routing routine.

I was thinking CC Q-jet because it cam with my car, and if it rains or we're in deep autmn there would be no problems (I shudder to think about trying to get traction in winter).

This is my first engine since its going to be on a pay-as-I-go plan anyway, I might as well kick some butt.

I was just looking at World Castings $10k engine, and that seems like an easy pick if I had the $10k bill.

I figure to $300/mo. my local parts store until its all together, but I need a list so at the end I'm not missing this piece or that part, or even worse that part doesn't go with this piece.

The guys at the store say it would take about five pages handwritten to document each piece and price. I can understand how they are reluctant to do that with it being so time absorbing.

I'm afraid that if I just wing it I'll end up with some non-compatible parts that will send me to the local drug dealer (machinist) to make it work.

500 is not a hard and fast number. I'm not trying to race in any specific group. I just want it to be worth years of nut gathering.

Who knows? Maybe it could be a sticky or FAQ when its done.

Thanks,
Jason

Air_Adam

Why couldn't the CC carb handle 500hp? Its still a Qjet, as far as the engine knows, its the same as any mechanical Qjet that made 500hp before it. The CC Qjet can take most of the mods than any normal Qjet can, and its self adjusting (sorta) so it can somewhat fine-tune itself. All of the things you'd do to a normal Qjet to support 500hp, like rods, hangers, AV tuning, etc.. can all be done on the CC version too.

Only thing you gotta do is grind off the limitting tabs that the CC carbs got on the secondaries. Those limit it to about 600cfm. Once those are ground off, it will flow up to 780cfm if need-be.

Just as long as you have the right distributor (ie. CC distributor) and you don't use a solid lifter cam (the ticking drives the computer crazy) I don't see why it can't be done.

Stekman

On a side note, forced induction isn't exclusivly limited to fueil injection. There are plenty of people here running blowers with carburetors.

jrg77

Like I said I'm flexible. If it is easier to make it happen without it that is fine. I just happen to know two guys each with dynos and each claiming skills with the Q-jet. Let's not get bogged down in carb choice, as there are a lot of parts underneath to consider.

Thanks,
Jason

Stekman

Ok, all forms of injection aside.

The big question. What heads/cam do you plan on using? What displacement?

jrg77

I hvae no idea on the cam. Probably an aftermarket block so I can go big displacement in a little package. I would be nice to run up to about 6500 rpm redline without sputtering down low.

Jason,

Air_Adam

Thats not hard, and you don't need an aftermarket block to do that. Hell, a stock L69 can run up that high very easily, and still have some kick down low.

jrg77

If I use a blower then I have to have a big hole in the hood and advertise to everybody that I spend ungawdly amounts of cash on a $1500 basket case. Plus they don't look so cool on the autocross circuit, and may affect my ability to see pylons on the passenger side or apex properly at Gingerman.

Jason

89RsPower!

on a side note, you wouldn't need a y pipe for true duals.. then they wouldn't be true duals..

jrg77

The great thing about posting is that you can work out little inconsistencies without spending dollars.

With true duals then and two cats there's no y-pipe. So if I wanted to keep the two cats then one side of the exhaust would essentially have a longer route than the other. Would that affect the sound/power?

The rumor is that heads and cam make the main decisions, but they can only do that once they know what committee of parts they are working with. And the committee wants to know its objective before they are willing to participate. And that is where the identity crisis starts.

Forgive me if I've read too many Car and Driver magazines, but I've heard too often that around town American V-8s will lead the way, but then you get them on the highway and the germans start leaving at such an extreme pace that it is embarrassing.

Take two examples a brand new '97 T/A (I know its 4th gen, but bear with me) and a brand new RX-8. These two cars are the very exact opposite of each other. The T/A was flying at anything under the double nickel, but was feeling like the little engine that could above 80. Meanwhle the RX-8 was all sound and no thrust under 55, but was just clearing its throat at 100. A '97 Mustang Cobra has enough juice in 3rd at 80 to step out in the hands of someone that doesn't know. Too bad I don't like Mustangs!

So I am taking a body shape I love and trying to fit it with an all around performer that does not hold its head in shame in any arena. I haven't quite understood how there's no middle ground on this where the torque is either all there or non-existent and vice-versa with the horsepower.

So far this is my first American sports car. I've had an Integra GS-R and I have a Nissan Spec-V. The Spec-V is great in that it will almost hang with the GS-R up top, but straight walk away from the light.

I like blasting away from the light. But that sensation should only be the prelude to an experience that keeps going, and going, and going. The cars can go faster, but doesn't neccesarily seem to like it.

So to overcome inertia one needs large displacement. To pull the highway magic it needs to breathe and not break. And the syncopation has to understand this and agree.

I don't know why GM rates different blocks for different power and rpm levels, but they do. Every time I try to pick one I look at the price and the block alone is north of $4k. At that level you're in the same neighborhood as a Donovan, Rodeck, or World Castings where alledgedly you can go stupid huge in a small block shell. The other side is whether or not that actually just lets you spend more to accomplish less ("Oh you have a Rodeck block? Well you need the custom...). Any of them got oil squirters for the pistons?

Next you have the crankshaft and connecting rods. H- or I-beam? 5.7" or 6.0"? Big or small journal? American or not? I've heard you don't spend money this low in the block, but I don't understand how you don't if you want to spin the wee out of it and not spend time and energy forcing something to balance so it doesn't break later. Fix it and forget it is so so nice.

Then are the pistons. Forged or hypereutectic? Pop-out or Zero deck? Dish, dome or flat? Where's the wrist pin? Where are the rings? How many rings? What kind of rings? Does Saturn come with the rings?

Which came first? the heads or the cam? Flat tappet, Hydraulic roller, or solid roller? Is the block ready for it? What ratio rocker arms? Is there room for that ratio? Stud or shaft? Girdle or pantyhose? Maybe crotchless ? Cam buttons laces or zippers? How long are the pushrods? Bare heads or fully dressed? Hand port or CNC? Steam holes (maybe its pissed?)? O-rings or gaskets? Valves? Basic, hollow, sodium-filled? 3- 4- 5- angle valve job (why can't they use a shaped cutter with no angle just radiuses?)?

Pumps? (I prefer sandals so she doesn't stab my thighs with them...) Oil, fuel, water, A.I.R. brake, power steering?

Fuel delivery? Carb, TBI, TPI, SFI, LT1, LT4, LS1, LS6, LS8, Z28, Z06, PDQ, ASAP, RSVP, UPS, USPS... Stealth Ram, Mini Ram, Super Ram, Ram Jet, Chargers, Colts, Raiders...

Don't tell me to pick cause I don't know. I don't have experience with any of them so I truly do not have a preference. It appears that all of the items above work at some level, as all of them have been involved in making gobs of power that somebody just loved. Which ones hang together, will start up with no fuss whether its raining or sun scorching, or can be tuned to get through the gov'ts look up the tailpipe and still perform is all up in the air.

It is difficult to guess at performance parameters that are worth the price point when you haven't done it before. What's even more of a concern is that these are just the basic questions. This doesn't even include bolts, supports, can, pans, or any of that other "Oh yeah, I need X so Y will work with Z."

There's got to be a Sports Car Mods 101 somewhere. I have most of the books and they seem to all say the same thing:

It was better in the old days when the gov't didn't ineterfere.
If you are driving on the street we don't want to talk about it.
If it is a track only car then we have loads to say.

For a given rpm range there has to be a certain amount of CFM required to move a 3600lb. car rapidly. That air mixture should consist of certain percentages of various molecules at a specific minimum temperature to move with the right velocity through # cats to burn cleanly. The molecules must be created from a certain air/fuel mixture that can be consistently maintained as the engine turns faster or slower. I can pick the rev range. I can pick the acceleration level. I can even pick a terminal velocity. But it all goes around and around.

We could start from the other end. Wheels 81" in circumference, turning at a maximum 257 feet/sec go through a 3.23 rear end. The 6th gear ratio on a T-56 is .52. How much torque does it take to twist the crankshaft, flywheel, mainshaft, driveshaft, rear end, axles, and tires at that speed in a 3600 lb. Camaro at Stock height? How much torque does it take to average 18.5 ft/s^2 for the first twelve seconds? How much torque does it take to average 3.2 ft/s^2 for 41 seconds? Which one of these is the most torque? Given the gear ratios of a T-56 and a redline of 6500 rpm, where can we put that torque peak so that it is most effective at acceleration? What bore and stroke provide the best balance of maximum strength and minimal rotational mass to accomplish the torque and rpm numbers? How much air must the engine flow to het the numbers? What cam puts the torque and horsepower numbers where we need them? Which heads are best for that cam? Which intake best suits those heads? How much oil, fuel, coolant, must we flow to maintain these parameters safely, consistently, and reliably? What auxillary pieces are neccesary to facillitate this in a car with good A/C that produces no more than 2 HC ppm, 30 CO ppm, and 3 NOx ppm?

I hope this helps make the question more specific.

Thanks,
Jason

jrg77

I told y'all the last post was long...

In the mean time I now have a '76 2-bolt 400. It came with 882 heads which, if I understand correctly aren't even good for book ends. It also came with an intake for a 2-barrel carb. Since I don't have one of those I guess that has to change also.

It will be connected to a manual transmission.

Open to suggestions



Jason

Air_Adam

If you want 500hp, a 400 chevy is a GREAT way to get there... but with that much power, about the only factory part left will be the block. You'll need a forged crank, aftermarket rods, and forged pistons to make that much power in a streetable, NA combo.

jrg77

I am not opposed to that. With time and patience I can make it happen.

I know I'm gonna put 91 or higher octance in the car.

I'm guessing to be at 9.5:1 static compression. I don't know where the dynamic compression is gonna fall.

It would be nice to figure out how much cfm I have to flow to hit the horspower.

Jason

Air_Adam

Dynamic CR will depend on what cam you choose.

For a carb on a motor like that, I'd go for a either a Holley 3310 (sq. bore 750 vac. secondary) or a 750 double pumper.

jrg77

So I start with the carb, then pick the cam?

Jason

ljnowell

no start with the heads, then pick your cam. After you have decided on what cam, pick pistons so that you have the comp ratio right for your cam. Then move on to the intake and carb. These are both dependant on your cam/head setup.

jrg77

So far I've learned that peak torque generally occurs at 80% of peak horsepower. If I can get 500 horsepower at 6000 rpm then peak torque should occur around 4800 rpm. At peak torque I need at least 187 psi pushing on each cylinder. At peak horsepower I need at 164 psi. I haven't figured out the time or the flow I need to generate those pressures, but I am looking for the equations. Once I can figure that out then I think I can intelligently look for heads and a cam.

Jason

ljnowell

torque/hp/RPM will all be determined by your cam selection in relation to heads, etc. I think you are kinda going about it in a backward way to calculate psi per cylinder, etc.

jrg77

My logic was this:

Figure out the horsepower and torque I want. They require a certain amount of pressure on the piston head to push down hard and fast enough to meet my goals. Now that I know what pressure I need I am looking to determinehow much air/fuel I need burning to push that hard. If I then can discover how fast I have to get the mixture there I can pick the ports and the time I want it all to occur.

Am I in error this way?

Jason

ljnowell

Dont look at it that way, because I can make 400 hp with 10:1 or 11:1. Settle on a displacement. Thats first. Now look around at dyno proven results to give yourself an idea of what you need. Figure out a good head/cam combo this way. Then match your intake and carb to the heads/cam.

CaysE

jrg77, you are the man. I thought I'm the only person that thinks like this. I hope to get some answers from this thread, as well.

You should start with a displacement though. That will help determine how much pressure you can get in the cylinders.

jrg77

I know the displacement: 400 CID +/- 5.

Because most of the market doesn't use 400 blocks they don't test on them very much, if at all. The other challenge is that they use parts that do not allow at all the ability to pass the sniffer.

I will look, but knowing something works because X did it doesn't explain to me why he did it, why I should do it, and that it will completely work for me.

Jason

jrg77

Pounds of force required on an individual cylinder: 2500

Square inches of piston head : 13.364

Air fuel ratio: 13:1

Air and fuel are both weight in volumetric quantities (cubic feet, or gallons) which leads me to think that some of the force will be pushing on the cylinder walls. That means we will need more than 2500 lbs to make sure at least that much is available to push the piston head down.

I'm kind stuck here.

Jason

Stekman

You logic is sound, yes. However, don't forget, you really can't determine the dynamic compression until AFTER you fully assemble and do a test. Valve timing and port design are 2 important factors.

There's no actual downward containment for a combustion. Once lit up, the combustion expands in all directions possible. Think of it as a sphere that expands from a central point. Goes up, down, sideways, front, back, all over.

Sure, A/F ratios are good to go with. however, they are merely relative to eachother. Get better heads and a good cam to match and get more of both. More of both makes more power.

Square in. of piston head. Ok, but how much area of that sees direct combustion force? (Not sure of the exact term, but its the force of the initial explosion, rather than the pressure itself that pushes on the piston). Also, keep in mind that you have 7 other pistons already in other various stages of the combustion cycle. Each of them with their own inertial input.

if none of this makes sense, sorry. I'm kind of intoxicated at the moment.

CaysE

Pressure is the measure of force being applied to the piston from the explosion. It's the same thing.
This would definitely seem to be the difficult part, but really, there's always only one cylinder firing at any given time, and the amount of resistance being applied against the combustion could be measured and be constant for every cylinder.
Yes. Yes you are.

jrg77

That's the whole thing:

How do I know what a good head is? And even if it is a good head is it right for my intentions? If I pick good head (by luck right now) and a crappy cam how do I tell which is the problem?

There should be a quantifiable way to measure this stuff, and I SHOULDN'T have to buy a computer program (that uses equations)

ljnowell

Like I said before, you quit overthinking the problem, and look for known combos. No one says you have to build an exact copy of any engine. Just find something to give you some basic stats, and some hp/tq ratings and go from there. Build it bigger, and then visit the dyno. You can calculate everything you want, but you cant guarantee consistancy between cylinders, and there are too many unknowns to really calculate a combo based off of flow and pressures etc.

leeski

besides, trial and error is more fun than proving your calculations wrong. Find a proven combo and improve upon it.

Rabbitt

I say !STICKY!
I've learned a crapload just from reading this and this has helped me think about the more important parts of an engine, if that makes any sense...
Make this a sticky and move it to the engine swap forum!

jims87camaro

it doesn't need to get moved. it's in the perfect place - i found it.

it sounds like you are trying to reinvent the wheel (or, the internal combustion engine). don't. you are going to give yourself a migraine and the end result will be the same as if you chose to use someone else's buildup.

that said, the best low-mid-buck buildup of a 400 engine i have seen to date was the Impersonator motor done by one of the magazines. it started out with a 400 2 bolt main, did the .030 bore to make it a 406. then they filled it with 4130 (strong up until you get to 850 hp, or so) crank, rods and 22cc-dish, 4.155-inch bore forged pistons, which, with the heads they chose (boo, hiss!) the AFR 180s, adds up to 9.5:1 CR (with 68cc combustion chambers). the cam was a single-pattern Lunati camshaft sporting 0.480 inch of lift with 230 degrees of duration at 0.050. the induction continues with an Edelbrock (say what you will, it's still a solid, inexpensive intake) Performer Air Gap intake and a 750 holley mechanical secondaries carburetor and 1.5:1 roller tip rockers. the end result is a torque peak of 529 lb-ft at 4,100 rpm and 490 hp at 5,600 rpm.

now, if you want to get all scientific and stuff you can start researching other parts that can be swapped into this setup. i know for a fact that it will run strong as a bull with Vortec heads, though probably not at 500 hp. it will probably breath a little better with a slightly larger cam, like the XE284 (my choice) and 1.6:1 roller rockers. you might also want to check out the Dart heads, which when worked slightly breath much better than most of the heads on the market. true, you can work any head to make it breath better, but it's usually better if you start with one that breaths well to begin with.

btw, the whole package as described is under 6k. and it should get your 3800 lb. bulk down the 1/4 in 11 seconds or so. a solid performer, to be sure.

now, all of the stuff listed needs bolts or studs to hold it together, so you're going to need a bolt/stud package. ARP makes it easy by putting together a complete package for engine building, and it differs by which motor you are building (so they actually thought about it). fel-pro makes a complete engine gasket set. you are going to need to cover the bottom of the engine with something and you are going to need a flexplate or whatever depending on what transmission you decide on. it will need a starter, and there are many out there that will do what you need - start the car. there will be vacuum hoses, coolant hoses and lines and a lot of other stuff you will need that perhaps you can cannibalize from your current motor.

oh, and make sure the block is align honed, decked (if needed), baked (no, not that kind), and get the rotating assembly (crank, rods, pistons) balanced before you button it all up.

i am sure i am forgetting something, but others will chime in where i have left something out. none of the above is personally witnessed by me, but if all goes the way it should (when does that ever happen?) then come springtime i will be dropping an engine quite similar to the above in my '87. oh, and if i am completely off base and this is not what you wanted to see, well, deal with it.

good luck with your project.

jrg77

Thanks, jims87camaro, I appreciate you input. With your cam choice is that flat tappet or roller? Does it matter? I think I understand that roller allows the system to be a bit smoother and run higher easier. I think a rev kit is in order.

The Dart heads... are they PRO1s?

How much torque would I lose if I went with the Victor Jr.? Where would I lose it? Since I will be driving a stick how significant is the torque loss, since I won't have to fight through an automatic?

I'm thinking 6.0" rods, but with the piston ring issue is this a good idea? Who makes reasonably priced forged pistons sets that won't falter here?


Now I got something to work with!


Jason

jims87camaro

roller, solid. makes a BIG difference in power output.



PRO-1s will work, as will the Iron Eagle, 72cc heads



about 100hp and 50lb ft of torque - lost. the problem is now you have to find a cam that will work with this. even with the race setup and 12.5:1 CR, i couldn't get the hp back. the torque came back, but you need the hp once the car gets moving, or it falls flat on its face.



throughout the entire range of the engine, from 1500 - 6500 rpm.



regardless of which transmission you use, the lack of torque (and an automatic is actually a torque multiplier) will really hurt your performance. while i understand this will be more of a road race car than a 1/4 car, you will miss not having the extra torque once you hit the apex and start to accelerate out of a turn.



i went with domed JE pistons, part #JE-213112 for a 400 Small Block 18° Dome 4.155" X 3.875" X 6.000". the rest of the setup has to be the same, with the crank and rods matching, and since the recent post about the Scat crank, i've been thinking Cola. still, you have to match all of this stuff up.

you do, and you can continue to think about heads and cam. they have to match, which i think is the problem with the Victor Jr heads, is that i had trouble finding a cam to match. does Edelbrock recommend a certain cam for that head? that would help - maybe even recover the lost power.

jrg77

I didn't check with edelbrock about the cam. I'm probably just gonna go with the performer rpm or AFR's intake.

How does it work with the stroke part? If the OEM rod was 5.565 there has to be some clearance issues if you go longer.

Jason

jrg77

Here is what it says:

Block
Degrease, Hone, Bore, Install Cam Bearings, Install Freeze & Galley (where are those?), Resurface Block, and Align Hone w/studs main $660.00

Head Work
New Motown 220 $975.98

Rods & Pistons
SIR5700 rods
Hypereutectic Pistons .030
Moly Rings
Hyd. Cam lifter
Roller chain
Roller Rockers
HT push Rods
HV Pump & Pickup

Crankshaft
Grin, Chamfer and Micro Polish ($125)
Weld Rod (what's this)
Balance Assembly - External ($195.00)
Damper
Balance Plate

Total: $3629.44

Does this sound about right? It doesn't say whether the honing is with a deck plate or not. It doesn't mention anything about checking the block to see if all of this work is worth doing to it. He mentioned no brand names except for the heads. I want AFR 195cc heads, but I don't think he can get them, so I will have to get them on my own.

If/since the original rods were 5.565" and he's installing 5.7" isn't the block going to need some clearance work done? Would it be much different for 6.0" rods?

This is supposed to be with my crankshaft. Isn't it a cast crank? If everything goes according to plan this thing is going to put out 475-500 hp. That is right on the border of all I've heard that cast cranks, and
hyper- pistons for that matter, can handle. Should I adjust that to have a larger safety factor (forged crank and pistons)?

Can I beat his price is I get my own balanced rotating assembly and just have them do the block work?

What other block work could/should be done?

jrg77

OK,

The block is done. They had to go .040 over and do two sleeves, but he says the block can handle it from the magnaflux and sonic test.

Where should I start the parts process? It would be nice if I could assemble as I go as I don't realy have a WHOLE lot of time, and I want to try to do this myself?

Thanks,
Jason

ME Leigh

I'm not a big fabn of World heads, they need a lot of work to even be good.

I'd get some ProTopline heads like these http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~osie4078/proheads.htm

Or some AFR heads.

Go with a roller cam like comp XR288HR

Wiseco Forged Pistons or SpeedPro pistons

Edelbrock Air-gap intake

Scat 6" H-beam rods, for cam clearance

Scat 4340 Forged or 4130 forged crank.

Comp Hi-Tec Stainless steel 1.6 ratio

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The "freeze plugs" are the stamped metal plugs on the side and end of the block. The "galley plugs" are the screw-in plugs that close off the oil passages after they are drilled in the factory. Both types of plugs are removed so the block can be thoroughly cleaned before & after it is machined.

That's to add material to the crankshaft journals so they can be ground back to the proper diameter.

I'd say borderline is putting it mildly for 500 HP.

A Motown block.

jrg77

Just order the Eagle cast crank/ kb piston combo with the 5.7l rods.

Gonna get the Edelbrock Performer RPM heads at 64cc, unless someone else can come up with some better ones for $1000 ready to install.

Gonna get hydraulic flat tappet cam with roller tip rockers. If you can think of some better choices feel free. So far, here's the prospects:

Crower
Grind: - 258H
Lobe center - 112*
Adv. Intake Dur. - 258*
Adv. Exhaust Dur. - 264*
Int. Dur. @ .050* - 204*
Exh. Dur. @ .050* - 208*
Int. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .414"
Sxh. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .417"

Grind: 288H
Lobe center 112*
Adv. Intake Dur. 288*
Adv. Exhaust Dur. 298*
Int. Dur. @ .050* - 214*
Exh. Dur. @ .050* - 224*
Int. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .444"
Sxh. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .467"

Lunati
Grind: - ?
Lobe center - 102*
Adv. Intake Dur. - 278*
Adv. Exhaust Dur. - 288*
Int. Dur. @ .050* - 204*
Exh. Dur. @ .050* - 214*
Int. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .422"
Sxh. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .444"

Grind: - ?
Lobe center - 112*
Adv. Intake Dur. - 287*
Adv. Exhaust Dur. - 287*
Int. Dur. @ .050* - 214*
Exh. Dur. @ .050* - 214*
Int. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .444"
Sxh. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .444"

Comp Cams
Grind: - 286H
Lobe center - 110*
Adv. Intake Dur. - 286*
Adv. Exhaust Dur. - 286*
Int. Dur. @ .050* - 236*
Exh. Dur. @ .050* - 236*
Int. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .490"
Sxh. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .490"

Grind: - XE274H
Lobe center - 110*
Adv. Intake Dur. - 274*
Adv. Exhaust Dur. - 286*
Int. Dur. @ .050* - 230*
Exh. Dur. @ .050* - 236*
Int. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .490"
Sxh. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .490"

Isky
Grind: - 264 - Mega Hydraulic
Lobe center - 108*
Adv. Intake Dur. - 264*
Adv. Exhaust Dur. - 264*
Int. Dur. @ .050* - 214*
Exh. Dur. @ .050* - 218*
Int. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .450"
Sxh. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .450"

Grind: - 268 - Mega Hydraulic
Lobe center - 107*
Adv. Intake Dur. - 268*
Adv. Exhaust Dur. - 268*
Int. Dur. @ .050* - 224*
Exh. Dur. @ .050* - 224*
Int. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .450"
Sxh. Gross lift @ 1.5 - .450"


How close are these in performance? I tried to go from the top of the page down to just before they would say rough or choppy idle. I also tried not to pick anything above a 9:1 compression.

Jason

Slow89Iroc-Z

Those cams are WAY too small for the power your after.....Bad choice on the cam style too. I would go with a solid/mechanical roller setup at the power level you are after. Possibly the Comp Cams XR280R, with their 818 solid roller lifters, 3100 timing set, Pro-Mag 1301 roller rockers, the Hi-Tech series push rods (after the valve train is assembled and proper length can be determined), and a set of their 977 springs.
Aslo shoot for your compression to be in the 10:1-10.5:1 range. Those heads are crap too....get a set of AFR's, Trickflows, or Darts in the 195-210 variety.

jrg77

I am rethinking this thing and readjusting mygoals. Instead of throwing all of this super stuff on a very used block, I just want to nail down the basic processand make sure I know what I'm doing. Plus everybody keeps telling me I can't have it all, so I'm just trying to do a bit better than an OEM rebuild.

I was trying to pick cams that would work with a $1000.00 pair of heads, as opposed to a $1500.00 pair of heads. I intentionally picked flat tappet cams for their cheap but good performance. The only thing I am going to splurge on is the roller tip rockers.

I mean why try really hard on a block that I can't spray or supercharge? If I hadrealized I was going to drop $1000 on the block alone I would have just gotten an aftermarket block and started there. At least then I could have absulfreakinlutely have know restrictions at all.

And checking out a different board I am realizing that 18* heads are where its at, and I am pretty sure my pennies arent that shiny.

So is there a better choice of heads that can be put on for $1000 or less without fancy schmancy parts? 220cfm at .400 lift would be good, wouldn't it?

Jason.

jrg77

Update...

I have Dart Pro 1 heads. 64cc. 230cc runner 2.08/1.60 intake/exhaust. 1.550 dual springs.

The rotating assembly is Eagle with SRP pistons. I should be about 10.3:1 static compression.

I have an Eagle Performer RPM intake.

One local parts dealer said I should consider a speed demon 825cfm carb. I have no particular allegiance to any carb at this time.

My next purchase should be towards the valvetrain.

Looking for recommendations...

Jason

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I'll throw my limited experience in here....I'm not an expert on this like so many others seem to be here, but I'll tell you what I've found out with my setup:

I think it's gonna be big $$ to acheive 500+ fwhp and stay streetable. But everyone's idea of "streetable" is quite different.

I'm pushing close to 400 fwhp, and the ONLY thing on the engine that is stock is the block, as was mentioned above.

I have been running one of the cams you posted above, the Comp XE274H. Idle is a little choppy, but great torque and midrange power. This is my 2nd cam since two lobes were wiped when it was on the dyno thie first time. The XE series of cams are hard on valve trains, but nonetheless a good cam. Will it get you close to 500 hp with the heads/compression you have? I dunno - But I think you'll dyno higher than mine since you have higher compression and aluminum heads. Just keep in mind that if you go with a bigger cam for more top end HP, you'll lose a bit on the bottom end and idle will get worse - here's where your idea of "streetable" comes in. I'm presently going retro-roller this winter so I can take advantage of a more aggressive cam profile and stay more "streetable". Most likely I'll go with the Compcams XR288 or something simular as mentioned above, but have'nt decided yet.

I've personally had no more luck with a Speed Demon carb than I would have had with a Holley. If I did it over again, I'd save a few bucks and go with a Holley carb. Same thing IMO but cheaper.

I think you're well on your way to 450 fwhp, but if your lookin for 500 rwhp - and "streetable", I'd say get a Motown block and either spray it or go forced induction. JMO...

PS: You'll also need a better flowing exhaust than what I have, which is TES 1 5/8 headers and a single 3" Hooker catback. Just doesn't flow enough I think. True duals are in order I think.