scanman717

My problem has been ongoing for a long time..

Sometime, I turn the key, I hear the Fuel Pump kick on, I turn the key to start and the started clicks, but nothing turns.. I have to hit the key 3-4 times, each time with a click at the starter, and no turnover.. Eventually it will start..

I replaced the starter about a year ago when the problem started and that didn't fix it. Early summer I replaced the battery with a Red Top Optima, that didn't help. Oh, and for good measure I had to replace the alternator about 3 months ago.

Any thoughts?? Could I have a missing tooth in the flexplate?? Would I hear the starter trying to spin?? It sounds to me like the gear is pushing forward to engague, bu tI cannot tell if it is wanting to spin..

Thanks

ridecamro

i had somthing simmilar happen to my car. but myn would struglle aot. it was just a timing problame. and after advancing the timing it cranked over right away and alot easyer.

sellmanb

chances are you need to properly shim your starter. Take the flywheel inspection plate off, have someone get in the car and turn it over. See what's happening with the starter.

Stekman

It's not the shimming.

Sounds like the starter isn't getting power. Make sure all the wires and terminals are clean. Maybe the starter enable relay?

scanman717

Already replaced the starter enable relay.. Sorry forgot to tell you that.

Isn't timing, I reset the timing this summer when I did a head gasket change... This problem was around before and after that.

Other than not starting right sometimes, she runs liek a top.. I have Datamaster and all the readings are good...

I guess I will have to drop the starter and turn the key and watch what happens..

Super_GTA

Turn the key to the on position and try jumping the two larger posts on the starter with a screwdriver, being careful not to electricute yourself. If the starter turns over then your solenoid is bad. If not, check all of your wires for a good connection, including grounds, and check for corrosion.

Benm109

Don't forget to check your battery cables. They can go bad over time, just like everything else. I had to replace mine recently because of a similar problem to yours.

hoogabooga

iTrader: (1)

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/2988/index3.html

i dont understand why everyone wants to replace the starter, rewire the car, buy batteries,spend all day diagnosing,spend hundreds of $$ when 95% of the time a $2.00 set of shims will cure a "clicking" starter problem. remove coil wire then have someone bump starter while you watch the starter pinion. if the pinion hits the flywheel that is the clicking you here. that link explains how to shim. if that isnt the problem THEN try the other things.


k.i.s.s keep it simple stupid

scanman717

Hoogabooga. You were right on the money... Bought a $4 shim kit, tried a few combinations and wham, starts everytime... I will wait and see what happens this week, as this problem did not occur %100 of the time but like %75...

scanman717

Well, that didn't solve the problem.. Just took the car out and had the starting problem again.

AAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!! How much shimming is safe? I have to get under the car and have someone hit the starter for me and hope it happens then..

I suppose it is safe to pull the coil wire off the distributor so the motor doesn't start while I am under there?????

Thanks

RB83L69

If hitting the starter makes it work, then you just need a new starter.

The bushings that hold up the armature (part that spins) are worn; and the armature is touching the pole pieces (parts that sit still) instead of the armature being suspended in the middle between the pole pieces. They stick together, being 2 magnetic things, and can't move.

Just replace the starter. When you install it, put the shims back like they always were when the starter was working; with none, if that's how it was; and leave them alone.

HalfInchWrench

He had a bad starter and better get rid of them shims before the new one goes in. He won't understand the internals but it wouldn't hurt to spark his mind about it.

I always rebuild my own. At least that way I know what I got and it's dirt cheap in parts, not to mention interesting.

rgarcia63

Replace the battery cables now, regardless of condition even if there only a few years old, stay away from connectors that are clamped to the cable, and crimped ends that leave the wire exposed.
Always use some type of anti-corrosion coating, or felt pad ends, and as stated by others make sure all connections are clean & tight.

if you have increased compression, you may need to upgrade the starter.
Changing the timing, (unless it's not to spec) only indicates the starter can't handle the engine's compression, or the electrical system can't provide the current required, either because of poor connections i.e. bad cables, or condition of starter, and or a bad battery.

scanman717

Thanks for the insight, however, I just did replace all the battery cables this weekend.. No luck.

The Battery was bought last summer (Optima Red Top) and the voltmeter still shows juice.

I am still thinking it is a shim issue.. I still get that noise like someone is hitting the flywheel with a hammer... When it works, it works, I barely have to touch the key and it fires right up...

How do I know how much shim to use?? I have seen this HOWTO: http://www.carcraft.com/howto/2988/index3.html
But I have the stock type started with no way of accessing looking straight on..

BTW, this is the SECOND starter giving me this problem, as well as Alternator, Battery, Cables, Transmission, Headgaskets, Radiator, and whatever else I have replaced the last 18 months....

sellmanb

it's so true.... in every project there's a mountain to overcome


At this point you should probably take your starter out and have autozone or the likes test it.

Super_GTA

As far as shimming the starter, you want to be able to fit a paper clip between the starter teeth the the ring gear teeth. There is a way to get the starter gear to engage without turning over the motor. I forgot which terminals on the starter you're supposed to jump, but it can be done. I do believe it's the two larger posts, but I will check for you.

scanman717

Does anyone know how to engage the starter without it turning the motor over??

sellmanb

take the spark plug wires off the distributor cap, or take the fuel pump fuse out if you're running TPI... or... the list goes on, you can be creative with it if you want hehe

rgarcia63

edit: [i]Do this test from above, put the clip directly on the starter when working from underneath.
Try disconnecting the positive battery cable, and jumper the positive battery post to the "S" teminal on the starter. If you have a remote starter switch clip one end to the battery, and the other to an insulated long screw driver, or metal rod through rubber hose, or taped to keep from shorting on headers.

Here's another shimming procedure.
Install starter with bolts finger tight.
place a precise 1/8" diameter rod between a Flywheel gear tooth, and the starter armature shaft (rod is perpendicular to shaft.) if it's to tight install a complete shim.
If it's to loose install a 1/2 shim on the outside bolt.

Red Devil

RG bustin' out with the good stuff!!

Does it make me old if I remember the days when the shims and 'alignment tools' used to come with the starters?

rgarcia63

It makes me even older because it took a while to remember how I do it, and it's been even longer since I've bought an OEM style starter that had the alignment tool in the box.

The procedure doesn't work for the CSI Mini-starter (3 yrs old) I have now, but it did come with a tool, and instructions. I did check it, but it didn't need any aligning.

scanman717

So the S termional is the one with the positive wires, or the one with the purple wire?? Sorry, but they are not labeled on the starter as far as I can tell..

rgarcia63

There's only one wire on the "S" terminal (purple.)

RB83L69

If you want to waste a bunch of time on observing the starter drive mesh to the flywheel / flex plate, it's alot easier, and safer, to simply remove the screw and disconnect the little copper blade looking thing that carries current to the motor winding, from the solenoid, and bend it back a bit from its terminal on the solenoid; and then either use a helper to turn the key, or a remote starter switch, to energize the solenoid.

For whatever reason the text in red in that "explanation" from AllData was made red while not explaining it, it contains the key to understanding the object of the exercise; which is, to energize the solenoid so that it kicks out the starter drive, without energizing the motor.

For an "alignment gauge", use a 1/8" drill bit.

But none of that matters. This is a car, a REALLY simple thing, not rocket science. Use some logic.

All of that crap about shims is a total waste of time on a starter that has been working fine for however long, and then fails this way. It's a whole bunch of misdirected monkey-motion. It's all great stuff to do when you put on the new starter you're eventually going to break down and get after you get sick of all this other stuff, and the unlikely event occurs of it not working quite right. Until you replace the starter, don't bother with the shims.

Your starter broke. Broken starters need to be replaced. Starters that work fine for years on end and thousands and thousands of miles, don't suddenly just change size, and up and need their shims changed. They need new starters when they fail. At replacement time, you adjust the shim situation to perfect the new starter's fit to the engine; you don't somehow "fix" a failed starter by shimming it.

Leave the shims alone, and change out the starter, and spare yourself a bunch of futility and hassle.

LiquidSnake

I had a similar problem with my Starter sometimes I would have to turn the key 2 or 3 times until it started...did you check the three fusible links that come off the starter solenoid? For some odd reason one of the fusible links on my Solenoid didnt break completely like it should have...instead it kind of melted the stands together and from what I could gather the wire broke later from vibration

If that is the problem do NOT buy the replacement fusible links with the eye on them just get the ones with the prestripped ends I spent a good deal of time under my car after I found out that the eye was too small trying to drill out the hole...damn near killed myself at one point!

BRobinson

You say it could take a couple turns of the key to get it to start, and you replaced the starter a year ago, and the cables, etc. How about the contacts in the Ignition switch? Could they be corroded?

scanman717

RB83L69 - Thanks for the insight, except this is already the second starter doing this, that is why I am "wasting a bunch of time" with Shims... There is clearly a noise with EVERY turn of the key from the solenoid, so I have a hard time believing that there are 2 bad starters in a row... If I do end up bying a third it will probably be a different/better than parts store starter.. With that said, I don't want to go out and drop some $$$$ when there is a possibility of spending just a little on something as simple as a shim.

LiquidSnake - That is the only thing not changed, gonna give that a whirl when I get home in a couple of weeks.

BRobinson - Could be.. Is there actual current flow through those contact, or does that just engauge a relay?? The keys switch works 100% in all other aspects.

rgarcia63

Scanman,
I apologize if the "red text" didn't explain it. I thought I had given what is at least one method for kicking out the starter pinion shift lever without energizing the starter motor (I have done this so I know it works.)
Safety:
The battery cable is the only thing that needs to be disconnected, and connecting the remote starter switch is safe because no contact is made until the trigger is pulled.

New faulty products:
I just replaced the Coolant temperature sensor for the third time in less than a year and the motor has less than 100 miles on it.

Infinitro

Probably get booed off the stage here,but how about a voltage drop in the start signal harness.Maybe she needs the old auxillary "HOT" start cure. Just a thought!

scanman717

Fill me in... I have no idea what a HOT start cure is... At this point I will try anything...

And where would I measure the the voltage to find the drop??

Infinitro

Found this: https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/solenoid.shtml
Basically all you are doing is using the "start" signal from the key to trigger an aux relay. A full current 12 volts is ready and waiting at the starter ( via the new relay\solenoid) ready to kick the solenoid on the starter. This eliminates running 12 volts from the battery,inside to the key and back out to the starter. That is a very simplified explanation. That diagram may seem confusing,but he's trying to observe safety protocol in regards to using it as a remote starting\cranking source. In practice a more basic idea is to run a battery cable(or heavy wire-10 ga or so) from battery"+" to one side of the new relay\solenoid and a heavy guage wire from the other side of the new relay\solenoid to the starters "S" or start terminal and put the cars original "S" (start trigger)wire from the starter on the "S" terminal on the new solenoid.Hope that makes sense? Tried to break it down to it's simplest parts.That's the idea anyway! Please be careful!

rgarcia63

A "HOT" start, is starting an engine after heat from the engine & headers has soaked into the starter, specifically the solenoid.

I been using a remote solenoid ( I use a ford solenoid) on my 88' since it began suffering from heat soak in 1997.

Lo-tec

Is this a "HOT START" only problem or does it occur when engine is cold also? I would try and fix the problem without adding an extra solenoid and rewiring the cables. Also, did you crawl under the car yet and actually see what it happening when it won't start? That should give a big clue as to the source of the problem.

symonqg

I am having a VERY similar issue. I replaced the starter, adjusting the timing, and replaced the ignition switch, also added heat shields to the starter. Thought it fixed the issue. No problems for more then a month until this morning. Car was cold and the starter would not engauge. messed around for about 15 mins. Wiggled the wires on my aftermarket ignition coil (which should not have had any effect) and it fired right up..... so confused

scanman717

I ended up replacing the starter with a better beefier after market unit from a local speed shop. Sorry I don't know which one this was 6 years ago, and has been perfect ever since. Still have the car still drive the car (although admittedly not every day) and still love the car.

symonqg

alright then... I am also on my second starter. Even the first one tested fine but i replaced anyway.. ill keep looking... maybe replace again.. thanks for the help

xstang77

so still no solutions to this problem? I have been battling it for over a year now, I tried a new OE acdelco starter today and still the same problem it doesn't matter if its hot or cold, ive watched and the gear on the starter will come out and not mesh the teeth on the flywheel and will just hit into it causing the clicking, but I still have found no solution. someone please help im losing hope lol

Lo-tec

Did you try shimming the starter?

xstang77

Yea I've tried multiple shim configurations sometimes it will work fine though other times just click over and over till it goes

lbhicks76

If you have an aftermarket exhaust the starter could be getting to hot as well. Does it happen on cold first starts or only after it has been driven some?

xstang77

it has stock manifolds and y pipe. it happens no matter wether its hot or cold start, if im under there and watch it when it clicks I can see the starter and flywheel hit tooth to tooth instead of mesh with eachother.

lbhicks76

Only other thing I can think of is on 350's I know there are at least two different flex plate tooth combinations and you may have the same issue. If engine is stock call dealership and have them run the vain to verify which flex plate it came with and number of teeth and compare that to the starters you have been buying. Wish I had a better answer
Good luck.