Zed'er

Anyone ever heard of an Ertel camshaft. I have one, supposedly an RV type, but there are no grind numbers on it. It does have yellow and pink paint on it, but i don't know what that means. I asked about the paint on cams before, but apparently no-one else knows either.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Ertel used to make pistons; yerbasic rebuilder's cast low-bid ones. I doubt they "made" cams, but rather, bought them in bulk from somewhere and sold them as part of "kits" or as just another "value added" product line for their distributors. I'd bet that your cam is either a 929 copy, or if it's a REAL STRONG RUNNER and STUMP PULLER, it'll be the 204/214 .420/.442 one that Edlebrock sells as the 2102 and Melling sells as the MTC-1 and Summit sells as the 1102 and everybody else in the business sells under some part number or other.

The yellow and pink paint on it, once it's outside the factory, means that somebody put yellow and pink paint on it while it was still inside the factory.

While it was still in the factory the paint might have had some meaning, like color coding for part of a part # or something; but out here, it's pretty useless.

Zed'er

It only has about 1000kms on it (not even). The engine was a very strong puller, atleast till it vaporized a piston. I've heard rumors that Crane actually makes the cam, but you know what rumors are like.....

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Mic it.

See if the lobes come out to .260/.273, or .280/.295. Those would be the lobe lift #s for the 2 grinds I posted above.

Yeah, we all know about rumors. Screw the rumors. Ya know, I heard a rumor once that the Earth was flat; didn't seem to affect the actual shape of the Earth too much though. I guess the Earth didn't hear the rumor. Didn't get the memo.

Apart from that, just knowing that Crane ground it, doesn't tell you diddly about what it is. Crane, and Comp, and Edelbrock, and all of those guys, don't "make" those high-volume zero-research 40-year-old copycat grinds; they only "make" their own specialty low-volume grinds and customs, and they buy the high-volume stuff from somebody that has a machine that can spit out a couple hundred mass-produced cam copies an hour, instead of about 2 high-precision close-tolerance cams an hour.

Zed'er

Any tips on how to measure it out of the engine, like some kinda formula for the ramp height over the base circle, etc, etc..?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Mic it.

Mic across the lobes, and mic the tip of the lobe to the heel. One intake, one exhaust. Maybe do a couple of each so you can be sure you're not measuring a worn one.

Lobe lift = approximately the big number minus the small number; for a tiny cam such as "RV cams" usually are, the lobe is so dinky, that the technique above gives results within a couple of thousandths of the true lift.

Zed'er

Cool. Thanks for the info. I don't have a micrometer, but I do have a digital caliper, that should work. If I understand correctly, you are saying to measure the base circle of the cam and subtract it from the actual height of the lobe.

Zed'er

OK, so I measured every lobe. I came out with .278/.292 Now, if I recall correctly, that would be the seat to seat measurement. How do I convert that to .050" lift, or is that possible?

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

.050" lift is exactly that.I think what your asking for is .050"duration,hopefully someone here can decipher that for you.

Your lift,however,is as follows,assuming you took proper measurements and are using 1.5 rockers:.417intake,.438 exhaust.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Sounds to me like you have the 204/214 .420/.442 cam, since you're within a RCH of the .280/.295 lobe lift numbers for that cam. Which is not surprising, because even though the "RV cam" term is meaningless, when people say that, they're often referring to this one. It's been around since the mid or late 60s that I know of. It works real good in a tractor-motor type application; a low-compression, poor-flowing, smogger kind of motor, that you want to use for truck type applications. It's an excellent match for that situation. Pitiful for performance use, as its RPM range is so limited.

This is what you/ve got. http://store.summitracing.com/partde...rt=SUM%2DK1102

What sort of help are you looking for? That cam is so cheap, the whole K-kit costs less than a pair of head gaskets; it's certainly not worth "saving", let alone designing a motor around. What are you planning on doing?

I can definitely tell you, if that motor had those "pop-up" pistons and 70s smogger heads like 882 or 993 or 624 on it (that being a REAL TYPICAL "rebuilder" malfunction), and that cam, and you thought it ran good before, you will be utterly overwhelmed by what a properly built motor using correctly matched components will do.

Zed'er

That cam should work well in one of my 305's.

I'm not looking to build a full-on race engine. That cam was used in that busted block, with 882 heads (larger valves, though). It wasn't mine. Over 7000rpm for 30 miles literally killed it. He only had about 1000kms on it, lol. I got it for the steel crank, which luckily wasn't damaged.

My build will consist of
350 4-bolt block 0.020 over, originally a summit block
624 heads 2.02/1.6 - may do a little work -unsure
L82 cam - 224/224 - .450/.461
Speed pro H617CP pistons rated to give 10.24:1 with 76cc heads but i'll try to knock it down to 10:1 / or H618CP's rated at 9.38:1
either a torker II or performer EPS (probably eps)
comp cams magnum roller tip rockers 1.52
Speed pro moly rings

I am looking for an honest 300-325 hp out of it, and keep the cost reasonable (I actually got the $1000 block for free, as well as an assortment of cylinder heads, "Who says inlaws are good for nothing", lol.)

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

That combo is EXACTLY what I was describing to avoid.... you got your "pop-up" pistons, your 624 smogger heads, your old lazy obsolete factory cam, your T2 manifold.... EVERY SINGLE MISTAKE that people used to make back in the 70s and 80s, all rolled into one motor. All you need to complete the disappointment, is a stock converter and 2.73 gears. What you'll get is a motor and car that has no low end because of the cam, no high end because of the heads and intake, no leave because there's no torque multiplication, won't build up RPM because of the gears, and will ping like crazy because of the dome pistons.

Under no circumstances would I build that motor. I wouldn't even do it for somebody else if they paid me, because I don't want the warranty problems and complaints and bad will and my name associated with a disgrace, of somebody that paid good money to create something that can't beat a stock Grandma's grocery cart. Which is exactly what that combo will produce. In terms of numbers, I'd be shocked to see 260 HP at the crank; which would be 210 at the wheels.

If that 204/214 cam was really run at 7000 RPM for 30 miles, then it's trash. Throw it away and don't worry about it. There's no wisdom in "saving" a $30 generic cam, and smoking a new motor with it when it rolls a couple lobes off from getting pounded to death by uncontrolled valve float. That's what might be described as "penny wise and pound foolish".

Those advices might sound a little harsh, and I'm sorry about that; on the other hand, it's better to get a dose of harshness on the Internet, than to get dosed by reality AFTER you've spent however much it takes to build the motor, and have it turn out to only be able run about even with slugs.

Zed'er

I guess DD is waayyyy off then. It shows peak HP at 323@5500rpm and a flat torque curve of 343@3500-4500rpm. Don't you want the torque at it's highest when shifting? This was using 882 heads (stock airflow file) with 2.02/1.6 valves, a 750 carb, dual plane intake, hp manifolds and exhaust (I have 3" single on my car), the L82 cam, and the 9.38 comp ratio pistons.


So what did they do before aftermarket aluminum heads and roller cams were available? The domed pistons are the easiest way for me to increase the compression a bit. Can you even get flat-tops that will produce no less than 9:1 compression without having the deck or heads (76cc) machined? What would you suggest for a cam? It would have to be streetable, as the car will not see the track. As for the tranny and gears, I have a five speed and a 3:42 rear end.

As far as heads are concerned, I might do some port/polish. The valves and seats are already done. Believe me, if I could afford some AFR's or the like, I would get them.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Well, I'm not going to comment on whatever "they" did.... but I can tell you, WE used THE BEST STOCK HEADS we could get our hands on, and threw the smogger and sedan and truck crap in the trash. And, WE were running roller cams for decades prior to the factory noticing them.

Power lives in the heads. If there is any one thing to remember about building a good-running motor, that is it. Lesson One. Nothing can "make up" or "compensate" for heads that are inferior. You have 2 choices: you can win, or lose. You want to win, get the best heads you can afford. You don't care if you lose, then run a bunch of crap. If your heads are no good, then all the cams and intakes and high-$$$$ bottom end stuff in the world won't make the engine put out power.

That doesn't mean you have to go out and buy AFRs. What it does mean, is that in terms of results per $$$, HEADS are at the very top of the list.

Going back to life in the olden days before CNC casting, remember that all of those cars from the 60s that people spank off nowadays about how fast they were, had some kind or other of STOCK heads on them. Depsite the problem that most of what you hear about them is romantic nostalgia exaggeration, the fact remains. They DID NOT however have heads from sedans and trucks. And in the 70s, the way we all made cars fast, was to take the smogger crap like 882s and 624s OFF and throw them in the trash, and put on some of the better heads from the 60s (not sedan or truck heads). We didn't need (or have) Desktop Dyno to figure out which ones were garbage and which ones won races. It was REAL OBVIOUS. Still is, to this day.

A much better alternative than smoggers and "pop-ups", for a budget situation using easily obtainable junkyard heads TODAY, is to use one of the better 305 castings (416 or 081); install 1.94" intake valves in them, open up the chambers to unshroud them, and port the bowls right behind the valves; and use pistons with about a 12-15cc D or "reverse dome" dish. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS get your block zero-decked to your pistons, and run a .039" head gasket (1004) You'll end up in the mid-high 9s of CR with that combo. It will easily run on pump premium, and maybe on pump regular.

A good cam for that combo is the Comp XE262; or the comparable one from Crane, or the Lunati Voodoo. Look for .050" duration in the 215 degree range on the intake, and 225 degree on the exhaust, and the least possible difference between the "advertised" (seat) and .050" durations. For instance, your el cheapo cam is 278 seat and 204 @ .050"; the XE262 is 262 seat and 214 @ .050". That's 74 degrees that the valve spends just barely cracked open (leaking but not really flowing anything) on the cheep cam, compared to 48 degrees on the modern cam. In other words, same driveability, same vacuum, same gas mileage; 10%-15% more power when you stand on it, and 800-1000 more RPM before the motor runs out of breath. You'll find similar numbers from the other mfrs that are doing R&D.

Zed'er

I actually have three sets of 416 heads, and have been reading the how-to's that have been posted here. I also downloaded the standard abrasives how-to. I have an older sioux valve grinding machine and seat grinder. Maybe I should do a little practice this weekend. As for the suggested pistons, they would definatley be cheaper than the domed ones I was looking at.

Thanks for the help.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

So there you go...

Better results, for the same $$$.

Good luck!!!