ok, i have these heads, i just got them for free off a 355 engine this moron was gonna throw in the garbage. turns out, when i pulled off the valve covers, the heads have 1.6 comp cams roller rockers in them too! the casting number on them is: (10088113) on the tpis website, they have the stock flow numbers listed for these heads, i wanted to know how the following setup would put me hp wise with the following setup:

block - 355cid
heads - L98 corvette heads, Aluminum; 58cc; 1.94in/1.5ex valves; 1.6 comp cams roller rockers; flow numbers according to TPIs are: 60, 115, 161, 184, 196, 199
cam - mellings; hydraulic flat tappet; .050 duration: 204in 214ex; Valve Lift: .422in .444ex; lobe centers: 107in 117ex;
intake - TPIs base and runners, with factory plenum
injectors - SLP LS1 25lbs with custom retainer clips

 

Don't know about the HP guesstimate but I had those heads. Chevy Hi Performance flowed those heads and they were the worst flowing heads out of any...iron or aluminum. They had a max 199cfm @ .600. They are however very torquey (163cc) and will help with big burnouts. Those are the ZZ4 heads and are capable of maybe 390-400HP with the right cam, intake, compression and fuel delivery. it would have to be a much bigger cam than you have there. I don't know if you'd have to swap to a different intake or not (to try and get this 390-400HP) i sold mine on Ebay for $700. and put that money towards a much better set. But heck, you got these for free...with Comp rockers? That guy was ready to through away $800.

Thats is a tiny cam and I don't know what kind of pistons you have (compression?) So I'd only be ballparking it... 250hp

 

I think mwnova would disagree with that right there. I think he has those heads now. Then again, every accomplishment he's had has been an outright amazing feat so....

That's a low end torquey motor, those heads and intake. the cam is weenie no matter what you compare it to, it's just a dinky cam. replace that. maybe port the heads. It should run pretty well after that.

 

Low 13's in a heavy car w/ a sticky tire.

 

I've done months and months of research on cyl. heads when I was in the market for a new set. I'm just stating what *every* flowbench data states on every internet site that has tested heads. Independent or not. (Westech, GM, Chevy Hi Performance, Car craft..etc..) It has the lowest numbers. Maybe there is some crap iron head from some stock tiny cube sloth of a motor out there that flows worse than 199cfm max.. but were talking about a ZZ4 head that is considered a performance aluminum head. Its definately the worst flowing aluminum ever made. I'll be very surprised if someone can show me a lower flowing aluminum head. (Keep in mind the key words are "worst flowing"...not "worst designed"). It has always been at the bottom of the pile with its flow numbers.
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...98/index4.html
Don't get me worng.. I used this head for 4 years and it was fine. BIG burnouts, strong torque and made about 385HP in my set up. But, it fell on its face after 5000RPM. Its just too small to be a rompin, stompin bad-*** head. Besides that, for future upgrade, or if you ever wanted a bigger hyd roller cam then they won't accept a larger valve spring without machine work. And, Personally, I don't see how Comp has roller rockers to fit between the bolts of the centerbolt valve cover. They need to be a narrow body, self aligning type..and I didn't think Comp made them for this app. Anyway ..my point was why not sell them for $700 like I did, and if you still want a smaller head thats kicks some butt... then for $870 you can get a set of 175cc Trick Flows ...complete and ready to bolt on and flow 247cfm. Thats only $170 bucks out of his pocket!!

Its a no brainer. Dump those heads and get the Trick Flows for $170 more.

 

For potential horsepower of the heads you take the flow numbers and multiply by 2.056. So with 214 cfm that means the potential with 100% flow would be 440 horsepower.

 

With that cam, your head flow #s won't matter; the heads aren't the limit to the engine's performance. Nowhere near it in fact.

That's the cam that people usually mean when they say "RV cam". Not too much different really from a stock L98 cam, except not optimized for TPI. Which means, it will probably make less power, and therefore go slower, than stock.

I'm guessing 225 HP; about 15 less than stock, after accounting for the inferior inappropriate cam, and the lowered compression from teh rebuilt short block (which almost certainly lowered the pistons .025" or so deeper into the hole at TDC than stock).

At what compression ratio? What fuel? Might it not be, oh, say, 2.055, if it was a 7.9:1 motor; or even (gasp) 2.057 if it was a 14:1 motor?

3 decimal places for that rule of thumb is ridiculous. I'd say that's about 3.5 too many. Which is just like statistics: research has shown that 76.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

"Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with dynamite"

 

1989GTATransAm,

Nah... salleechevrolet.com is the west coasts top GM crate engine builders/sales. They have ZZ4 crate engines that can be bought custom made with their performance upgrades. The baddest ZZ4 crate engine that they sell is 440 HP *but* they had to port the head to get that HP. Without the porting it was 410HP. This comes straight from people who build this engine and flow it. How can I argue with them? Your talking about $800 of port work (from sallee). Thats rediculous!! Do you know what kind of head he could have if he sold them for $600-$700 and then put that other $800 that it would take for the port work? Thats a brand new set of AFRs, ported and milled. 270-280cfm.
It just doesn't make sense to put money in these heads.. I've been beat'n myself up about this exact same predictament that he is in.. I was in it. I've asked every question and done countless research to find what the best route would be. Sell the heads and get the trick flows for $170 (if you strapped for cash) You could always go bigger and better if you wanted. You have a free $600-$700 jump start on ANY new head youwant. Take total advantage of that!!

By the way, you will never find 2 flowbenches that say 214cfm for those heads.. thats a bit optimistic. Even GM won't say 214cfm. And I've asked.

 

alright, then ill just list EVERYTHING i have, and you guys tell me what you think is the best thing to do:

Cams
cam in my car: mellings; hydraulic flat tappet; .050 duration: 204in 214ex; Valve Lift: .422in .444ex; lobe centers: 107in 117ex; 1,000-4,500 RPM
new cam in box: lunati voodoo; hydraulic flat tappet; .050 duration: 227in 233ex; Valve Lift: .489in .504ex; lobe centers: 110in 110ex; 1,800-6,200 RPM
cam in free engine: compcams; hydraulic flat tappet; .050 duration: 230in 230ex; Valve Lift: .480in .480ex; lobe centers: 110in 110ex; 2000-6000 RPM

Blocks
block in my car: 355cid cast iron 2 bolt; 4 valve relief pistons .030; cast crank
free block: 355cid cast iron 2 bolt; 1 valve relief pistons .030; cast crank balanced (i think)

Heads
heads in my car: stock 305TPI cast iron, 58cc, 1.84in/1.5ex valves
free heads: 10088113, aluminum, 58cc, 1.94in 1.5ex valves

i also got an aluminum water pump, and a summit timing chain cover w/ the free engine, and the 1.6 roller rockers ARE installed in those aluminum heads, even with the centerbolts
also, im not completely sure what my compression is, i was told by my engine machinist that it would be around 9.75:1 with my 305 heads, and my pistons does this seem accurate???

 

You guys are missing the point again. He asked what was the "theoretical" horsepower with the flow numbers. I gave it to him with the common standard of 2.056. Now that is with everything 100% which it is not. He also supplied the 214cfm.

SofaKingdom, I'm disappointed in your response. I thought you would know better. Anyways check with Stan Wiess's cylinder head page and see what he uses as the standard to guage horsepower.

 

big chief, that second cam, the lunati voodoo one is one that I hold in my hands (ok, it's on my bench at home), to me I think of it as "inbetween a compxe 268 & xe274 ". It's a NICE cam. The 3rd is symmetrical, not terribly useful.

my thoughts?

-use the 2nd cam
-sell both sets of heads (the zz4 heads can be sold as zz4 heads, or 'vette heads, people will eat 'em right up)
-buy ANY kind of heads. you could use vortecs (aftermarkets), or edelbrock, AFR, heck, anything pretty much. You could port your TPI heads, but if you make money from selling the 113 heads, use it for aftermarket heads.
-do more research on your blocks to pick the best one (what machining has already been done, etc
- think about if your rockers are self aligning or not (do they have tangs below the main hole on them?), then don't bother with guideplates if they are, etc.

-induction? either carb and intake, or figure out if your TPI stuff is worth using (and porting and upgrading and prom burning probably).

 

also, im not completely sure what my compression is, i was told by my engine machinist that it would be around 9.75:1 with my 305 heads, and my pistons does this seem accurate???

 

maybe, not enough info yet.

 

1989, I was just yanking on you, because you made it so easy.

None of those cams is appropriate to TPI. While each in its turn might be perfectly suitable for SOME engine build or other, it's not this one. I wouldn't use any of them with TPI. In fact, you'll probably make back IN CASH in 5000 miles of driving, the price of a correct cam.

Also, in NO CASE WHATSOEVER, will a motor even vaguely approach its theoretical head-flow-limited HP, with TPI on it. No way no how. With that induction, the heads never get the chance to be the limit. TPI protects them from ever being put to the test.

9¾:1 would be about right, if the pistons are flat-tops, and they have the extra .025: of deck clearance; and it has a .039" (typical) head gasket.

I'd suggest looking at Comp or Crane, at their TPI-specific cams. Comp has a version of the XE262, on 114° lobe centers, that would probably work real good; I believe Crane still has a cam in that same general area also.

I think you could eBay that VooDoo, and use the money to get the right thing. For that matter, if you have the lifters to go with the 280 Magnum, you might be able to get $25 or $30 out of that one too, it's a perfectly good cam for some things... just not TPI.

 

Do you what you want with the cam (just pick a larger one than the 204 dur.) My main point is SELL THE HEADS. I did. It went with 20 some bids!! You have to find your CR before you can buy new heads so you'll know what combustion chamber to get. Personally, Trick flow, Brodix IK, Canfield, are the best heads in the $1000-1100 range. AFR is more. Edelbrock RPM is cool but Trick Flow is the same price and flows more. If you are not into spending a bunch of money then go with the 175cc Trick Flow heads. They are the best aluminum you can buy in the $800 price range. hey flow more than the RPM heads and cost $150 less.

1989GTA,
Yea, I know the 214cfm came him. Sorry if it sounded like I was correcting you. Your right, it won't be 100% so those heads don't make much HP. They just dont. Sallee only got 410HP with the extremes of everything (single plane, bigger cam, 750 carb...)

 

well, i am also considering getting the accel super ram intake, i've heard its very easy to install, and you dont have to change anything. so what i was planning was putting that voodoo cam in my engine now, with a nice pair of trick flows 58cc, and the accell super ram, with my current stock fuel rails, injectors, etc.... what do you guys think about that?

 

I think I have $1000 canadian dollars tied up in a set of trick flows that flowed 269 cfm on the bench. There definetly good heads for the money outta the box, and flow real good with some work.

 

what about that intake???

 

Someone's been lying to you! I've heard it called the "Super(PITA)Ram", among other things - this article gives you some idea of the things that people have run into when trying to install the damn thing... Maybe some people have had easy installs, but I've heard of plenty who haven't...

 

Just to let you know those Trick flow heads are 56cc chambers. Summit has it wrong...again. I was ready to buy these but someone talked me into the 195s. So tell me how these are.. they look good.

 

thanks a lot about the heads up with the accel super ram man, ill look further into that.

 

what you guys are saying doesnt agree with me, b/c when i got the voodoo lunati cam, i was trying to replicate what they did in this article:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...feb-super.html

what do you guys think of my motor the way it is now, but with aftermarket heads, the voodoo lunati cam, and the TPIS base and runners! this is what i wanted to do for a LONG time. what do you guys think???? keep in mind, they made 460/530 with the TPIS stuff and a big cam like mine........ i would NOT have a problem with that, btw

 

Erm that was a 383. They were running quite a bit of a more agressive cam then you. Not to mention the usually magazine bs (no parasitic loss, running through straight long tubes, etc). Basically, the only way you "replicated" that motor was with the intake system.

 

alright, but my power couldnt be too far from that with my system could it? maybe say around 400hp? even 350? who cares, i'd take that

 

Your vehicle description says you have an 89 camaro with a 350 bored 0.030 over. If that's the motor that came with your car, then none of the hydraulic flat tappet cams are what you need. You need a hydraulic roller cam. Also, the flow numbers you got from T.P.I.S. are for a set of ported L98 heads. Stock flow at 0.600 is 199.0, as someone else stated earlier. My one question is, do you have an idea as to what you want to use the car for? Will it be a weekend toy, or your daily driver? Be brutally honest with yourself as you ponder that question. Failing to do so, will result in you have a car that you are dissatisfied with. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just wanted to point out somethings that you either may not have known, or hadn't considered yet. The reason for that, is that I'd like you to have an enjoyable experience with your current project and its results. After all, if you had a bad experience, you might never wrench on a motor again. And that's just not good for the hobby, or the enthusiast.

 

i will be using the car as a daily driver sir.

 

HP = .2575 x CFM (@ 28" of water) x number of cylinders

so basically, 440.84 HP at MAX those heads can handle/

 

i'm not talking about those heads anymore man. i'm talking about a set of trick flows, or even afr heads...... thats what i meant by AFTERMARKET

 

same thing applies, use the math i posted.

 

AFFIRMATIVE

 

No matter which of those cams you go with you're going to need lots of tuning. I suggest learning to do it yourself, if not find someone local that can do it for you......and for god's sake don't wast your money on mailorder crap. The cheap stuff doesn't do crap, and the expensive stuff is way too expensive for a half assed tuned.

If you're not going to tune it just stop right where you are untill you can get a carb on it.

 

i have bought everything to tune off moates.net, i'm ready to do that myself

 

good job, moates has everything u need.

 

yup, im all set

also, what do you guys think my compression is? i have the following:

355cid
hastings .030 pistons, 4 valve reliefs
305 heads 58cc
victor reinz head gaskets (normal thickness i guess)

i was told by my engine builder 9.75:1, but the guy on summit tech told me it should be atleast 10.25:1 with those pistons, and 58cc heads..... ugh im confused

 

Need to know:
Piston to deck height
Piston dome volume (+,- or zero)
Combustion chamber volume
Bore
Stroke
Head Gasket thickness

Guessing or not knowing any of the above won't get you an accurate CR.
9.75 sounds about right though.
BTW, The Super Ram is a great performing manifold. But it is a nightmare to install, I had one.

 

what are you using now?
----------
piston to deck height = ?
piston dome volume = ?
combustion chamber volume = 58cc
bore = 4.030in
stroke = 3.48in
head gasket thickness = ?

 

gasket can be approximated by 4.166diameter, .039" thick
piston volume will be roughly 5cc's assuming 4 valve reliefs on a flat top, could be different though

piston to deck height you can assume it's around .045" and calculate, but that's probably not all that accurate, so who knows...

I'd say higher then 9.75 though...

 

i'm telling you, i've asked A LOT of poeople that are automotive engineers, they say higher, more like 10.25..... just wanted to know what u guys thought

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/procrastination/motor.html

that site gives me 12.8:1 LOLOL howwwwwwwww

any thoughts????

 

If you're going to use this as a daily driver, I'd be more concerned about the rising gas prices. Contrary to what a lot of people believe, you don't need a lot of camshaft duration to have good power numbers. For a street driven application that will see daily use, I would say the most you want for intake duration is gonna be about 224 @ .050 inches of lift. The exhaust can have a little bit more to compensate for a weak exhaust. For head selection, you could use the A.F.R.'s, but I'd recommend using the newer 180 heads. The 190's and 195's had a bit of a problem with the location of oil drainback holes. When selecting your cylinder heads, pay close attention to the lift figures below 0.350 inches of lift. This is where your motor will spend most of its time. And the lobe seperation angle should be at least 112 or more. Drop below that, and you're going to have problems with a fuel injected set up. If you decide to go the carb route, you can disregard the lobe seperation angle advice. The Dart series cylinder heads are cheap and flow really well out of the box. They also have decent swirl, which is important for the air and fuel's ability to mix and make more power. Also remember that the cam manufacturer will tell you to use a specific compression ratio because the cam will make the most power with that compression or higher. You don't have to use that compression if you don't want to though. Aluminum heads should definately be on your list for the decision, because they don't hold as much heat and therefore will help fight off detonation. You should be able to run right around 9.5 - 9.7:1 compression with aluminum heads on 87 octane without a problem, while still making good power. The vortec heads are also a good choice, but unless you want to fork over the extra cash for the aluminum ones, I'd avoid them. Whatever heads you decide to buy, do yourself a favor and have a competition three angle valve job done on them. This will get you a couple more horsepower, believe it or not. The shop may offer you a five angle valve job for a bit more, but don't be suckered into it. It won't help out with the airflow, and there's plenty of dyno data to back that up. David Vizard, along with many other reputable porters, have known that for years. I can't think of anything else that I haven't answered, but if you have more questions, feel free to ask.

 

irocracer, thanks a LOT for that man. def. cleared up a lot of questions i had about cyl heads. i'm not considering this setup

 

just wanted to hear what you guys thought of this setup:

TPiS zz4 heads: flow #'s again(after machine work): 62, 140, 203, 239, 259, 256; 58cc; 2.00in/1.56ex valves
lunati voodoo cam: .050 duration: 227in 233ex; Valve Lift: .489in .504ex;
Intake: Accel Super Ram, stock TPI throttle body
LS1 SLP 25 lb injectors
10:1 compression

how much power? any suggestions?

 

Without knowing what you intend to use for your entire intake set up, I wouldn't hazard to guess. With what you're going to spend on the super ram, you could buy one of the injection kits from Edelbrock. You could use the RPM Air Gap intake with it, which is the best flowing dual plane intake out there to my knowledge. At that point, I'd say your combo would be worth at least close to 420 hp and an easy 450 lb ft of torque. That would be good enough to get you into the 12's. If you use forged pistons, you could add a boost timing retard and run a shot of nitrous to drop a full second off your e.t. whenever you needed to.

 

I'd go with Vortec heads for a daily driver tied to a Stealth ram or an LT4 with the required machining. Just my $.02 though.

 

Shawn I'll let you know in about two weeks.....I am assembling a new gm short block (12556121) trickflow 30300005 heads (56cc should give 10:1) 1.6 rockers on stock cam, bigmouth (heads and intake gasket matched to a 1256) edelbrock hi flow runners and modified plenum, 52mm tb, headers,duals. Hpoing for around the 300 mark with still decent fuel economy. Considering they are talking $4.00 a gallon by the end of the summer!

 

this sounds like a good combo... superram should work well with that cam. alot of guys using similar cams if not abit smaller cams than that one are seeing 400crank hp easy.


if you do go long tube runners from TPIS or w/e, then look into the ZZ9 cam from TPIS.. pricey but very good cam for TPI. this is IF you have a roller block motor.

 

haha, i'd have to say no on the roller block motor

for now, i think im just gonna throw the stock zz4 heads on my engine, with the mellings cam (mild, torquey). i ran that system through desktop dyno, tops at about 418lbs of torque at 2500rpm, and 317hp at 4500rpm. does this seem accurate??

ps
i'd also be using 1.6 comp cams roller rockers, and guide plates, and screw in studs on those zz4 heads....... didnt know how to implement that into desktop dyno

 

dd200 tends to be overly optimistic but, yah i would guess about 300hp and 375 trq.

I only use dd2000 to get my overall torque curve myself.

Helps for figuring out a correct converter stall speed and gear ratios.

 

yah, definetly... i'd probably be running 2.73's. after i finish the body work, i have to change the rear end, i have a spare posi rear with 2.73',s and a built rear with 3.73's they are both 10 bolts.

 

ok guys, its been a year now and i've been in an accident where i had to stop all project ideas haha.... i'm actually gonna get her painted pretty soon but i still stand in the same place as of right now, i'm just trying to figure out if i should go with a super ram still, because the only reason i would is to keep EGR.....