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TPI shootout in Feb Super Rod magazine

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TPI shootout in Feb Super Rod magazine

Old 01-06-2005, 07:28 PM
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TPI shootout in Feb Super Rod magazine

Super Rod did a decent TPI shootout in their Feb. issue. It has:

Stock TPI (410hp, 500lb-ft)
Edelbrock High-Flo (431hp, 501lb-ft)
Extrude Hone base & LTR (451hp, 534lb-ft)
TPIS Big Mouth System (460hp, 534lb-ft)
ASM Siamesed Runners (464hp, 510lb-ft)
SLP T-Ram (466hp, 495lb-ft)
Accel SR (480hp, 506lb-ft)
Holley single plane (493hp, 480lb-ft)
HSR (501hp, 493lb-ft)
MR (505hp, 471lb-ft)

The engine was a 10:1 383 with Trick Flow heads and the Comp XR288HR (236/242, .520/.540)

The article is mssing a few things that I would have liked to have seen. They used different size TB's for a number of the tests and the cam is better suited for the short runner stuff. All of the combos made decent power though. I would have liked to have seen a RPM Air Gap and properly sized carb tested as well.

AFAIC, the HSR is the winner as far as numbers:$. And i'm a SR guy, lol.

If you want the RPMs and graphs you'll have to buy the mag.

It would be nice if this thread could manage not to turn into a massive cluster **** of stupidity and ignorance
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Old 01-06-2005, 09:23 PM
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HOLY hell thats a huge cam for TPI. it made sick numbers tho. thats impressive. i wasnt sure if TPI LTR setups could make that high horsepower. LOL some of those combos could be potent low low 12's and maybe high 11's in some cars.

i wonder how easy it is to tune those LTR combos and how streetable that cam is. also wonder how power would suffer from a smaller cam like a 224/230 or so

Last edited by Orr89RocZ; 01-06-2005 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 01-06-2005, 09:35 PM
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is this issue in store's yet
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Old 01-06-2005, 10:00 PM
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I'll have to pick up the issue. One would have to see the dyno graph's to really see what was going on. Peak numbers do not tell the whole story. Allen
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Old 01-06-2005, 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by 1989GTATransAm
One would have to see the dyno graph's to really see what was going on. Peak numbers do not tell the whole story. Allen
I agree,,, and you guys thinking about an intake need to check this article out. It's on the shelves and is a nicely done article even though there were different T/Bs used. Each intake gets its own graph (per page) and is compared to the stock TPI. Great visuals.

Stock TPI - stock 47mm T/B and stock plenum
Edelbrock High-Flo Base and Runners- stock 47mm T/B and stock plenum
Stock GM extrude Hone base & TPiS LTR - 52mm T/B and Extrude Plenum
TPiS BigMouth Base and TPiS LTR - 52mm T/B and ported plenum
ASM Siamesed Runners - 52mm T/B BigMouth Base and ported plenum
SLP FireHawk T-Ram - 47mm stock T/B
Accel SuperRam Upper- 1000cfm Accel T/B and BigMouth base
Holley MPFI Single Plane - 1000cfm 4bbl T/B
Holley StealthRam - 58mm T/B
MiniRam - 52mm T/B

There were no real surprises.

It shows that a fully ported stock intake can hang with an aftermarket intake. Although if you couldn't do the port work yourself it wouldn't be cost effective to pay someone to port it (or have it extrude honed).

It shows that StealthRam put out more power than the MiniRam everywhere until 5800 on this 383. The MiniRam peaked 3 HP higher, but gave up as much as 23 HP and 28 TQ at 4400rpm.

The StealthRam's tunnel-ram design also put out more power at all points than the Holley single plane intake used. However there are better single plane intakes out there that could be converted to EFI and show better results when compared to the single plane used in this test.

If there was a "winner" among these tested, IMO,,, it was the StealthRam with the SuperRam running a close second --- FOR THIS COMBINATION. HOWEVER, if you wanted to keep gearing and the stall speed to a minimum,, the SuperRam would probably be the better choice. The old SLP T-Ram did well also,,, and would have been close to the SuperRam numbers with a larger T/B. I've also gotta say the TPiS long tube runner system showed very well. If you didn't race the car much the LTR system would be an absolute blast driving around town with approximately 47lb/ft more TQ at 4000 rpm compared to the StealthRam and around 28lb/ft more than the SuperRam at 4000 rpm!

Last edited by BadSS; 01-07-2005 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 01-07-2005, 01:03 AM
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The magazine also has a small writeup on Barry Grant's new 3 valve SBC heads
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Old 01-07-2005, 02:36 AM
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wow, this sounds very impressive? Were you just wandering around at your local grocery store (like I do and just happen to read every magazine you want. If you tell me where these things are available all over the place I will definitly buy it.

This will help people feel their options out and starting with their intake. These cars sound heavily modified. I have a HSR sittimg in the box - the fuel rail. If I don't get my hands on another car I plan on picking up for cheap I think I am going to buy the fuel rail. I might just wait to get some aluminum L98 heads, though before I slap my HSR on cause I think with some port work I could really crank out some happy N/A power!

This magazine sounds very hepful to the average thirdgenner. Maybe you can get this stickied? Or at least in the magazine article section!

Sorry for the long post, but I am sure 99% of you have seen the Full throttle everyone is talking about. I just want to here some input?

Last edited by 83BlackBeauty; 01-07-2005 at 04:04 AM.
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Old 01-07-2005, 03:36 AM
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Can someone scan the article, dont have that magazine over here..

/N.
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Old 01-07-2005, 03:50 AM
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Originally posted by 83BlackBeauty
wow, this sounds very impressive? Were you just wandering around at your local grocery store (like I do and just happen to read every magazine you want. If you tell me where these things are available all over the place I will definitly buy it.

This will help people feel their options out and starting with their intake. These cars sound heavily modified. I have a HSR sittimg in the box - the fuel rail. If I don't get my hands on another car I plan on picking up for cheap I think I am going to buy the fuel rail. I might just wait to get some aluminum L98 heads, though before I slap my HSR on cause I think with some port work I could really crank out some happy N/A power!

This magazine sounds very hepful to the average thirdgenner. Maybe you can get this stickied? Or at least in the magazine article section!

Sorry for the long post, but I am sure 99% of you have seen the Full throttle everyone is talking about. I just want to here some input?
I buy Super Rod every once and a while. They have it at quite a few places here. They should have it at most corner stores. I only buy it once or twice a year. I wasn't able to see the Full Throttle episode because we don't seem to get the same programming you guys do. It doesn't sound like I missed much though.
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Old 01-07-2005, 03:51 AM
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Originally posted by gta324
Can someone scan the article, dont have that magazine over here..

/N.
I'll try and find the software for my scanner this weekend. I'll scan it if I can find it.
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Old 01-07-2005, 03:54 AM
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That would be great, THX!

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Old 01-07-2005, 09:36 AM
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I've never heard of Super Rod.
Now I'm going to have to go and find it!

POOP!
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Old 01-07-2005, 10:30 AM
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any one else think that cam is too big for TPI?
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Old 01-07-2005, 11:20 AM
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Was this done with a stock PROM?
If there was tuning done I see the cam being alright.
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Old 01-07-2005, 12:06 PM
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i almost assume tunning had to have been done extensively too. maybe not even stock TPI ecm, but digital fuel injection like Accel Gen VI or FAST or something.
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Old 01-07-2005, 01:30 PM
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just got the magazine at lunch time and......

They used an Accel DFI (supplied with the superram) as the engine management system.
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Old 01-07-2005, 03:10 PM
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For those that don’t have 1/4 simulation programs, I though I would plug in the numbers from this article to showing the potential ETs with different 3rd gen combinations. I’ve found the ¼ JR program to be a very useful tool over the many years I’ve used it. I have also found it to be within hundredths of seconds to what I’ve expect to run at the track when I’ve made a KNOWN change. So,, these estimates should be fairly accurate assuming traction.

3510lb car with driver, 70 degrees, 30” bara, 70% humidity – 26x11.5 slicks

Typical stocker - 2.77 gears, 2000 rpm stall, 700r4
TPiS LTR system-- 12.48 @ 110.6
SuperRam-------- 12.52 @ 111.8
StealthRam------- 12.55 @ 113.7

Typical streeter – 3.42 gears, 2600 stall, 700r4
TPiS LTR system-- 12.20 @ 113.6
SuperRam-------- 12.18 @ 113.9
StealthRam------- 12.16 @ 114.2

Typical racer – 4.11, 3600 stall, TH350
TPiS LTR system-- 11.88 @ 111.8 (over revved)- 28” slicks – 11.82 @ 114.2
SuperRam-------- 11.79 @ 116.5
StealthRam------- 11.74 @ 118.3

Let me end by saying,,, in reality,, it’s hard to get a LTR car to hook and the estimated ETs for the LTR and SuperRam (to a lesser extent) are harder to actually run than the estimated time for the StealthRam. I know this to be a fact. Never the less the potential to run the times are there and it also shows how the ETs and MPH are not effected all that much with the intake change on the “middle” combination. However, note how it becomes more apparent as you move away from the middle,,,, when the terminal rpm better matches the particular intake’s inherent rpm range / characteristics.
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Old 01-07-2005, 03:38 PM
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those are about what i expected although i figured with all that torque and 460 hp, i would hope to think that motor would run consistant 11.8's especially with superram/hsr/miniram. i know of a 383 superram vette doing 11.3's with 4000 stall ( i thought that to be too big tho) so with a race weight about 3350-3400 lbs, 11s should be possible and consistant.
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Old 01-07-2005, 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by Orr89RocZ
those are about what i expected although i figured with all that torque and 460 hp, i would hope to think that motor would run consistant 11.8's especially with superram/hsr/miniram. i know of a 383 superram vette doing 11.3's with 4000 stall ( i thought that to be too big tho) so with a race weight about 3350-3400 lbs, 11s should be possible and consistant.
It's all about the combination of engine and car. Weight, stall, and temps have a huge impact on the ETs -

Using 3350lbs, 700r4, 3.08 gears, 4000 stall, 45 degree temp Quarter Jr estimates with the SuperRam combo above:
11.52 @ 117.1 mph

When you start getting on up in stall speed, the efficiency of the converter will make an impact on the ET and MPH (A $300 converter with a 4000 stall speed is not going to perform as well as a $800 converter with a 4000 stall speed,,, at least it shouldn't,,, lol). Also there's no factor for the lock-up that can mean ET and mph. So,,, it is not easy to get it nuts on with an unknown combination. However, once you get the car's actual known info and ETs dialed into the program, you will be extremely close on estimates for any changes you want to make. So long story short,,, the differences in ETs when going from one intake to the other should be close,,, again assuming traction and you don't run out of RPM with the LTR systems (over geared).
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Old 01-07-2005, 06:07 PM
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yeah, i was figuring that.

how about the stock ecm? with a tuned chip. is it possible to achieve those results? or atleast get close?
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Old 01-07-2005, 07:55 PM
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Thanks Acceld Z.
Another magazine that tends to have an abundance of useful TPI 3rd gen upgrades is named "GM- Hightec"
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Old 01-07-2005, 08:29 PM
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Geese I wish they had this mag here ! I can't believe they got that out of a TPI ( LTR) ...gives me hope .
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Old 01-07-2005, 10:11 PM
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I can't believe they got that out of a TPI ( LTR) ...gives me hope .
yeah, me too. i wonder tho about the stock ecm and chipping the car. not using DFI or another type of EFI
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Old 01-07-2005, 10:19 PM
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So run SD and tune it yourself. I'd bet you can get the same results.
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Old 01-07-2005, 11:01 PM
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Originally posted by Orr89RocZ
HOLY hell thats a huge cam for TPI. it made sick numbers tho. thats impressive. i wasnt sure if TPI LTR setups could make that high horsepower. LOL some of those combos could be potent low low 12's and maybe high 11's in some cars.

i wonder how easy it is to tune those LTR combos and how streetable that cam is. also wonder how power would suffer from a smaller cam like a 224/230 or so

i wouldnt think the torque would suffer too much but the hp might be down a little. that cam isnt that big as long as it is tunned and has a modded intake
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Old 01-07-2005, 11:11 PM
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Originally posted by D's89IROCZ
Geese I wish they had this mag here ! I can't believe they got that out of a TPI ( LTR) ...gives me hope .
LOL, go to a Chapters, Beckers or Macs. That's where I got mine.
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Old 01-08-2005, 02:02 AM
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Originally posted by Acceld Z
The magazine also has a small writeup on Barry Grant's new 3 valve SBC heads
I bought the magazine earlier today, I saw it @ pipes & pages (where my girlfriend applied today) I asked the lady and nearly pooped myself when i saw it. I read the whole article on Barry Grant's 3 valve heads and they look AMAZING! I am assuming this will allow more air and definitly some performance boosts. The greatest part of it all: They are a stock replacement that uses the stock head gaskets. There were no mounting issues and I can only imagine what these will cost. I personally hope they aren't too expensive! They did have a website listed on the mag too, here it is Barry Grant's Website

This thread is getting hot!

P.S how are those scans coming Accel? I want everyone else to be able to see this. I would do this myself, but I have no scanner.

P.S.S. I start attending school Monday! I am on my way to becoming a mechanic!

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Old 01-08-2005, 12:38 PM
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i saw it. I read the whole article on Barry Grant's 3 valve heads and they look AMAZING! This thread is getting hot!


Theres a company called AraoEngineering also known as Dominion who has been making direct bolt on 4 valve 32 valve SBC chevy heads for years. So if you were thinking 3 is better than two than try 4

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Old 01-08-2005, 12:53 PM
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that makes me want a LT5 LOL

i think i am gonna try and get that magazine too. proves all those TPI haters wrong. stock TPI can support over 400hp LOL
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Old 01-08-2005, 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by robsgta

Theres a company called AraoEngineering also known as Dominion who has been making direct bolt on 4 valve 32 valve SBC chevy heads for years. So if you were thinking 3 is better than two than try 4

Yes I know this, but who wants to spend 3-5k on a set of heads? I hope BG makes these affordable and they are supposed to bolt right on.

P.S. Check out the aftermarket product review board I started a thread about these heads there, seems like everyone wants to criticize these things though and just tell me there is something better. All I am trying to do is find out information and compare and contrast to other heads. Please put any info on the thread!
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Old 01-08-2005, 01:59 PM
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Not a bad comparision..though having diffrent TB's on the tests hurts a little.
Is the Trickflow heads ported? Or out of the box?
I have never seen this magazine anywhere.I'll have to hunt around for it...
That is a big cam for LTR...but maybe being a 383 its not as big a deal. 460hp/530lb torque...thats just plain nasty!!!!
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Old 01-09-2005, 03:55 AM
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ROFLMAO..................

Rhay didnt even bother to waste their time running the SLP Runners.

Damn is that funny.
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Old 01-09-2005, 03:56 AM
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Also what head did the run.

Which TrickFlow model???
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Old 01-09-2005, 10:57 AM
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I can not find this damn mag anywhere!! If I do get my hands on it, I'll see if I can get the text in at least, if not the whole thing scanned. Big if finding it though, too much ric<c>er crap in the stores here.
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Old 01-09-2005, 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by OMINOUS_87
Also what head did the run.

Which TrickFlow model???
They didn't say. It could be a moderately ported set of the 2.02/1.6 - 195cc heads or a cleanup / mild pocket port on the 2.08/1.60 - 215cc heads. You need around 265 - 270 cfm intake and 200 - 205 cfm exhaust flow at cam lift to get the numbers they did from this type 383 build.
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Old 01-09-2005, 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by OMINOUS_87
ROFLMAO..................

Rhay didnt even bother to waste their time running the SLP Runners.

Damn is that funny.
Or the Accel runners. They'd planned on running an Individual Runner setup but didn't in the end. It would have been cool to see the numbers on that.
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Old 01-09-2005, 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by BadSS
They didn't say. It could be a moderately ported set of the 2.02/1.6 - 195cc heads or a cleanup / mild pocket port on the 2.08/1.60 - 215cc heads. You need around 265 - 270 cfm intake and 200 - 205 cfm exhaust flow at cam lift to get the numbers they did from this type 383 build.
Would a set of 215's seal on a stock TPI base? They could also be a set of ported TW G1's or G2's.
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Old 01-09-2005, 12:46 PM
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As for the cam being too big.......it looks like it did the job. It may be a little ugly at part throttle or low speeds but it sure did produce.

The full specs for the cam are 288/294, 236/242, .520/.540, 110 LSA.
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Old 01-09-2005, 02:27 PM
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You dont think a ported set of SLP's would have produced good numbers?

also what was the rpm range of that motor? 215's and that cam should make power up over 6000rpm for sure, where HSR and miniram should have destroyed the others for sure. but its pretty even looking. i mean you give up 30-50hp for 30-50lbft or so. judging by the times estimated, it seems pretty close. 460 hp with AS&M system vs only 505 with miniram. i thought there would be a bigger spread than that, considering the LTR should max out at 5500-5800 and the miniram at 7000rpms. LOL very impressive tho.
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Old 01-09-2005, 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by Acceld Z
Would a set of 215's seal on a stock TPI base? They could also be a set of ported TW G1's or G2's.

You're right. I haven't had my hands on a set of the 215 TFS yet, so it would depend if they recommend using a 1206 gasket with them and how far to the edges of the 1206 gasket the opening actually is. If the heads are taken out to the edges of the 1206 gasket opening, then the StealthRam would definitely have issues sealing.

It probably is a moderately ported set of 195s considering the midrange of the HSR and that the HSR peaked 501 HP at 6000rpm with 493 lb/ft at 4600 rpm. I was guessing 215s due to the TPiS LTR system peaking 460HP at 6000. However, the more realistic HP number for the LTRs is 450 horses since it had that at 4900 rpm!!!!! Peak TQ was 534lb/ft @ 4000 for the LTRs.

The MiniRam made right at 500 HP at 5800, peaked at 505 at 6100 and appeared to drop to 504 horses at 6200. TQ peaked at 471lb/ft ,,, it looks to be either 4700 or 5100 rpm - the article doesn't say at what rpm and the graph apears to be basically flat from that range. Not a very good showing for the miniram on this combination. Although the StealthRam had benefit from a 58mm t/b and the Miniram used a 52mm T/B.

Last edited by BadSS; 01-09-2005 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 01-09-2005, 04:32 PM
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Scan it in and the article should be a sticky for sure. You can't count the people that ask the questions what will I get with _____ combination. This will give them a good I idea of what to look for. Great find!!!!!!!! :hail:
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Old 01-09-2005, 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by Acceld Z
Would a set of 215's seal on a stock TPI base? They could also be a set of ported TW G1's or G2's.
Those are my thoughts.

I just dont think they put the 215 heads up to a stock plate.

Not to mention, even the HSR needs material welded up if ported to a 1206.

The only intake in that bunch that could have been 1206 readu out of the box was the Miniram.

I assumed it was the 195 heads, however I just wonder if it was an old set G1s or G2s.
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Old 01-09-2005, 07:14 PM
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Great Article! Thanks for the heads up! What amazed me was how even the factory TPI HP peaked at 4,400 RPM but held the peak through 6,000 RPM. So much for that power wall! Too bad the BBK Intake isn't ready yet. I'll be in the market for a new intake soon. For everyone having a difficult time finding the mag, I found it at Walgreens.
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Old 01-09-2005, 11:02 PM
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Well I am pissed off..........

I searched around everywhere here in AZ trying to find a copy of the damn magazine.

And NADA, ZIP, ZILCH, ZERO...............

And then towards the end I became angry, after seeinf all damn **** magazines on the shelves, seemed to outnumber the muscle car stuff.

WTF??????????
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Old 01-10-2005, 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by OMINOUS_87
Well I am pissed off..........

I searched around everywhere here in AZ trying to find a copy of the damn magazine.

And NADA, ZIP, ZILCH, ZERO...............

And then towards the end I became angry, after seeinf all damn **** magazines on the shelves, seemed to outnumber the muscle car stuff.

WTF??????????
Thats because you are close to California, everyone even close to Cali is going to want a piece of the Import scene There are very select cars that are actually good in the Import scene. If I were you I would see if you can buy it online or just have some one pick it up and then mail it to you.

Any word on those scans?
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Old 01-10-2005, 01:50 AM
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can anyone post some scans of the article... the bookstore or his supplier around here has never even heard of the magazine
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Old 01-10-2005, 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by 83BlackBeauty
Thats because you are close to California, everyone even close to Cali is going to want a piece of the Import scene There are very select cars that are actually good in the Import scene. If I were you I would see if you can buy it online or just have some one pick it up and then mail it to you.
Very sad for a magazine from California.

www.superrod.com

And nothing here in L.A. ( Wallgreens, Albertsons, 7-eleven, Borders and others )

Jerry
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Old 01-10-2005, 09:40 AM
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yeah, that was a good article! i read it over the weekend when i got my copy in the mail.. it helped me alot to choice an intake... i'll try and scan it tonight if any wants it or emailed....
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Old 01-10-2005, 09:43 AM
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I would love a scan!

/N.
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Old 01-10-2005, 09:46 AM
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ok.... soon as i get off work and eat dinner.... we'll say around 6:30, 7-ish.... est.....
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