brando54009

so i picked up a complete 327 out of a 68 truck and im unsure if its a large journal or not but im pretty sure it is. i want to use it in my build and im just wondering what i should do piston and rod wise. im looking for about 10.5 cr with vortec's

could a mod fix the title for me please?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

How much are you planning on spending on this motor?

How is it A Good Idea to spend ALL THAT, on some random 45-yr-old motor with who knows what quality control problems, when $50 will get you a MUCH newer one with better machine work and less wear and tear?

How is it A Good Idea to buy the expensive and hard-to-get part of a Vortec motor (the heads), and leave the rest behind (the short block) in favor of an older, smaller one WITHOUT roller cam provisions?

That said, you should use whatever rods FIT IT.... kinda hard for us out here to guess at that when

And in any case, if it is, (probably not) it's got a 45-yr-old cast crank in it, so it doesn't a whole lot matter what else you use, the crank will protect it all from any serious abuse; so the stock rods would be as suitable as anything. OTOH if it's a SJ there aren't really a whole lot of rods available any more that make any sense to actually buy.

With 64cc heads you will need domed pistons to get that much CR.

In case you can't tell, I'm not thinking that this entire plan is A Good Idea.

brando54009

yea i was looking into it more and im thinking that i will probably toss some bearings in it and some pistons along with a bore and hone. i have a set of vortecs but i still havent even looked to see what heads this motor has. im not looking to really spend much on this motor because its just going to get me rolling for right now while i put together my roller motor. i still have to strip this motor down and inspect and bring it in to see what they say (i get awesome deals through my uncles guy because he does so much with them) but if all is good i would like to have em work it over a touch and get me ready for some good stuff for a later project.

how big of a dome would i need to bring me up to my goal with a 64(ish) cc head?

SumDumbGuy

If it's a 68, it's a large journal. 68 & 69 are large journal. Check the block numbers to be sure though, there's always a possibility it's not the original motor. Rods are the same length as the 350s. I could be wrong, but to get ~10 CR, you'd need ATLEAST flat top 327 pistons WITHOUT valve reliefs. Too many unknowns to be 100% sure though, sorry I can't help much.

brando54009

same bore same rods, 3.25 stroke

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yeah right...

Doesn't really matter, except that if you can get those on old crap like .... 45-yr-old crap, you can probably get the same sort of thing on 12-yr-old BETTER stuff too. But, just for the fun of it, let's assume the 327 is FREE, and you'd have to pay MARKET PRICE for a late-model 350 short block core... let's say, $100.

Now take those facts, and do yerbasic 2-column exercise, 2 times.

First time, in the left column, write down all the advantages of the 327 as a motor, excluding cost, over the 350. In the right column, write down all the advantages of a 96-2000 350 over a 327. I can't think of ANY for the 327, but maybe you can. OTOH the 350 will give you powdered-metal rods, a better crank, factory roller apparatus, better machine work, and 27 more cubic inches (which is to say, about 8% more power, or about 30ish HP in a typical street-ish build).

Second time, in the left column, list all the costs to build the 327 short block, and in the right column, all the costs to build a 96-2000 350 short block, including the $100 for the core. Don't forget boring, honing, cleanup, rings, bearings, pistons, crank turning, oil pump, a cam, gaskets, fluids, and a healthy allowance for "might as well"s. Don't forget, boring either block costs the same, pistons cost the same, rings & bearings cost the same, you'll end up with the same "might as well"s regardless of which way you go, and so on. Do this honestly, truthfully, in an unbiased and open-minded manner, using REAL-WORLD costs for each one.

At the end of the exercise, tell us HOW MUCH YOU WOULD SPEND on each. I'm sure you've realized by now that just because you can post crap on the Internet about "toss some bearings in it and some pistons", your own personal attitude about "toss" doesn't make them any cheaper to buy, any cheaper to install, or any more likely to succeed, than if you took a meticulous, careful, disciplined approach to this project and called it "build". The $$$$ for "toss" (sloppy, haphazard) and "build" (careful, meticulous) are EXACTLY IDENTICAL.

Now consider that EVERY PENNY you spend on this "toss", DELAYS BY ONE PENNY the day that you will be able to build the motor you REALLY want; and that whenever that day FINALLY does come, you will have to throw EVERY PENNY you just spent on this 327 INTO THE TRASH because you'll have to do it ALL OVER AGAIN on the REAL motor. IOW, it is a left turn down a dead-end dirt road and into the weeds, where you will then be stuck; it doesn't even qualify as a "detour" (where you can keep going, so to speak, and get back on the road toward your goal).

Now tell us HONESTLY: does the 327 mistake make any sense, and if you somehow managed to distort THE TRUTH far enough to come to that conclusion, in what way does it make this sense?

cuisinartvette

pretty sure the small journal 327s were 67 and prior and did not use a bolt to hold the balancer on they are press fit only (never again!)

igotta355z28

iTrader: (1)

i wish i could quote sofakingdoms entire last post and put it in my sig...

brando54009

to give you a little background on me:

im a metal fabricator and im currently learning master-cam and have a few years experiance with a couple different blueprinting and cad software. i've spent all of my time with cars building dsm's and rotary's, both of which are very very touchy vehicles. i do not mess around when putting things together and i understand the importance of doing things correctly.

i currently work in an almost completely custom machine shop making things with tighter tolerances than most of this site will ever even be able to fathom (maybe not you because i know nothing about you or what you do but more just general population). this is my first time with a v8 but not my first time with a wrench. i want to put this motor together to familiarize myself with these motors and get a better understanding of this old technology.

on the car side of things:

this car will probably never be done... this will be a project that i keep forever and will eventually turn into my sons vehicle when he turns old enough (he's 9 months right now). this is just a starting point for the car, i just want to beat on it a little to kind of get acquainted with it and find out how it reacts right now so i can say what a difference each part makes and and be able to talk to people on a realistic level vs. just saying "if you don't put the best in it there's no point" or "i dunno, i just did all this stuff" and then have them walk away and think im some sort of jackass. this will also probably never be a dedicated drag car it will be more of a fun street car that does good at the track.

on the motor side of things:

i already have the motor and it was free and it turns over by hand. also machine work is a non-issue.

this motor will not stay in this car by any means nor will it stay in any of the future projects it will go into. this will be my mock up motor and my test motor, i will use it to get a vehicle running and driving to i can just drive it and see. i have another motor in the works for this car but it wont be done any time soon and i don't have the option of really waiting until i get that motor done to get the car running. i want to use this motor to get me started down the road so i can start getting the suspension set up and ready for the next stage in the process... MORE POWER!!!

i do honestly understand the mindset you have and given any other circumstance i would just probably cast this motor aside and say the hell with it and build the bigger motor but given where i am in life i cant really afford to build the motor i really want for a few more years so i am just going to put together what i have and make due, probably throw a little squeeze on it and just play around. i was wanting to mess around with a new setup i have been hearing about so i think that this motor will do the trick.

the reason it makes sense to me right now is because i don't have any more room for more motors and i'm doing the expensive work myself. and i really feel i would like to say i have a 327 in it rather than the old common 350 that everyone else has. i can also justify it because you have plenty of people rebuilding stock 305's back to damn near factory specs... i'm also 27 more cubes than those guys. i can also bring in the argument that why would you ever play around with a stupid little 350 when you can go to the parts store and buy a 572, or call up a race shop and buy some 600+ci motor, or buy a built turbo ls, or waste your time with one of these third gen f-body's when it been proven that there are many other cars that are much easier to make much faster. the money will come i just have to wait, there is no point for me to put off having some fun for the sake of taking forever to build something when i could just throw it together and have some fun now and then when things become easier ill do it better later

im also remodeling my house right now so that is taking priority over my funds


sorry for any weird stuff in the post i went back and re fixed it because i was talking to the wife as i typed it and this is now the third time i have had to redo it because of accidental deletion and what have you

brando54009

thank you to those that have cleared a couple of my questions its greatly appreciated

1983Chimaera

There are those on here who have slavering rabid hatred of 327s, and no matter what you say will go into a junkyard dog-esque barking fit of "350! 350! 350! 350!" anytime one is brought up (they do the same anytime anyone asks any kind of tech questions about the 305 also I've noticed). If you want to build the 327, go for it! I turned a 1991 .040 over 4-bolt roller 350 into a 327 (333) with a 3.25" stroke crank and rear seal adapter, the 4-bolt's rods, 327 pistons, balanced rotating assembly, 64cc GM Goodwrench crate motor heads (milled to 63cc's and machined for LT1 valve springs and .525" lift), an LT4 Hot Cam, and a TPI system controlled by a Megasquirt-I ECM. It's pushing 10.5:1 CR, around 315hp and 400 lb-ft torque, and gets 27 mpg on the highway. It spins up wicked fast, and even with 2.73 highway gears will put the car sideways easily. It's YOUR car, build it how YOU want it, and whenever you ask a straightforward question on a forum and get someone's opinion on how you should build what they want, just ignore it.

brando54009

i appreciate everything i get, good and bad. sofaking seems to know what he's talking about because i have read other threads he has posted in and it was sound knowledge then again it was really anything that you shouldn't be able to figure out yourself. (nothing against this person at all just saying).

i also like when people post stuff like this because it might help someone who is reading through trying to figure out what they would want for themselves as i have come into a thread completely green and clicked off with a much better idea of what i want to do.

also i have grown very thick dinosaur like skin being a rotary kid in a past life lol and a dsm kid lol again

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Let us know how those two 2-column comparison exercises work out. They can be a pretty convincing way to get at THE TRUTH and help MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION in times when one's REASON is clouded by EMOTION.

When you put aside the notion that you're "different" or "special" and that all the accumulated experience of the human race doesn't apply to you, and instead SEE THE TRUTH put down on paper by your own hand right in front of your face, you won't have any further trouble seeing what a mistake this 327 idea is.

You also don't have any idea who I am, what my level of experience is, or anything of the kind. But I'll give you a hint: I've been in this hobby long enough to have seen this very mistake made OVER AND OVER AND OVER, and in fact to have made it myself a couple of times back when 350s were just starting to become available in the junkyards. I'm a slow learner, so it took getting beat TWICE before the lesson sunk in. The critical difference however is, I eventually LEARNED FROM MY MISTAKE, as well as that mistake being made in front of my face by others; and I've avoided it for the last 30 some-odd years since, because while I'm not very smart, I AM humble enough to admit when I'm wrong, and to LEARN from the experience instead of fighting off the knowledge. I won't make EVER make that particular mistake again. But there's always some young starting-out kind of guy that thinks they're doing somehting "unique" or "different" when in fact all they're doing is REPEATING THE FAILURES OF THE PAST and IGNORING WHAT THE REST OF US HAVE ALREADY LEARNED, and won't listen when they're told otherwise.

You (or anyone else) has the "right" to make that mistake and turn your back on what the rest of us have ALREADY done, ALREADY know the result, and are WILLING TO SHARE THAT KNOWLEDGE with you. It'd be a pity not to take advantage of a wider range of experience than you yourself have yet, being offered freely to you. I would personally not classify doing that as the mark of intelligent decision-making however.

1983Chimaera

By your own argument nothing but LS motors should ever be invested in, as any other build would be a waste of money and resources over these newer, far more efficient per cubic inch engines. So why are you still pushing people towards 60+ yr old inefficient technology when the modern powerplants are so vastly superior? The same cost analysis still holds true, even with the substantial investment an LS swap brings, because of the improved economy and greater ability to easily modify the engine for greater power output over the legacy 350. So if all of this holds true (and it does), WHY would anyone ever still build a 350? Why invest money in such an old design when the LS motor is its superior in every regard?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

That's true; that argument could be made.

However the pile of money one has to start out with is MUCH greater than either a 350 or a 327.

The point I'm REALLY trying to drive home, is the relationship between the size of the pile of money, and the results. Given that the cost of working over some 60s 327 and the cost of working over a 96-2000 350 are IDENTICAL, EVEN AFTER taking into account the purchase of the core, there is NO LOGICAL REASON - no reason that a rational, dispassionate, analytical THINKING CREATURE would accept as valid - for building the "free" 327.

Imagine you're going to the grocery store, and you have a pile of money to buy dinner. Let's say you have enough for a pound of beef. You could have a pound of tripe, a pound of hamburger, a pound of round steak, or a pound of filet mignon, all for the same money; your choice. QUICK: which one do you walk out of the store with? What's going on here is EXACTLY THE SAME THING. Take the names of cuts of beef out of the sentence and put SBC engine displacements in instead (305, 327, 350). Makes just as much sense to say in the beef example, "I want filet someday, but I'm going to toss this tripe in my cart instead instead"; EVEN THOUGH THEY COST THE SAME.

Any LSx motor would add SIGNIFICANTLY to the total cost, in the form of a core, other modifications to the vehicle such as exhaust, additional work and expense in the electronics, and so on. But you're absoultely right that the payoff would be greater. You'd just have to start out with a bigger pile of money to get there. Consequently I'm not advising that as an "equal cost" alternative to the poor idea of the old 327. But that's not a problem with a 350.

I'm not sure where all this "327 hate" and "350 worship" type of stuff comes from. It's just MONEY, that's all. There's no "love" or "hate" involved. Just MONEY and NUMBERS. COST and BENEFIT. CASH and POWER. That's all.

Also, there's no such thing as "investment" going on here; any notion of residual "value" is a non-issue. Don't even drag that misleading term into the discussion.

1983Chimaera

I believe the discussion is what parts to use on the OP's in-hand 327, not what engine he should be building instead. There are plenty of threads already on 327 vs 350, let's leave all the comparison talk there. If you have nothing to say about what to use on 327 build, then you're on the wrong thread.

1983Chimaera

AND just FYI, YELLING every OTHER word DOESN'T make YOU sound ANY more INFORMED. Just ANNOYING.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Hmmmmmmm.... must have struck a little close to home, if picking at the use of emphasis is all you can find a difference with....

Read this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

You don't really "get it", do you.

I believe the discussion is about how to help the OP get the most from his money, since he goes on repeatedly about his .... "economically sensitve" .... situation; which in this case, he sort of has a choice. He's got a pile of money that, one way or another, he's going to spend on rebuilding some motor. Object of the exercise therefore, is to help him get the most for his money. Just like the cow part example. He could take his $xxxx, whatever it is, and spend it on that old "free" turd; or, he could take the same $xxxx, and do something else with it, and get MORE.

Obviously there are people in the world who, when faced with a choice like that, make the wrong decision, and choose to get LESS. Some of those spend EXTRA money to get LESS. (hard to believe I know, but I've seen it on the Internet, so it must be true... you can't post stuff on the Internet if it's not true, right??) Some people even choose that deliberately. I reserve the right to laugh as I dust them at traffic lights as they are being "different" and "special".

1983Chimaera

Oh, so you're one of those "different" "special" people I pass being loaded into the back of police cars for street racing.

And again, the OPs thread was what to use on his 327. Money and cost did not enter the discussion until after you first jumped in with your "A Good Idea" post. Your very first entry to this thread was about how wrong he would be to continue on his present course and not to simply answer his question.

This thread is not about your opinion on his choice of motor, not a rant about why what you want is better than what he wants, not for you to spiel about how he's wasting his money...If you can't answer the question he asked then don't post on his thread.

You come off as very elitist and arrogant (the random "yelling" of chosen words you use far too often helps this). We have no clue what you've built in the past, or the present for that matter. For all is collectively known you have a long stream of blown up engines behind you. For that matter, you may have a display case full of trophies. Either way, neither can be verified, so anything you say has to be taken with a grain of salt. That's the general problem with forums, opinion enters way more often than fact. The true fun comes from sifting thru all the garbage for the nuggets of fact sprinkled in amongst the crap. Unfortunately, some people (a lot) offer nothing but garbage. If you take offense to that, then you should take stock on why you do (it's not directed at you per se). Most umbrage comes from what we dislike about ourselves and don't like for others to notice. I understand that forums are the last place to ever find peace and harmony, but in this case it's supposed to be a repository of knowledge and to seek help when needed. Telling someone you don't like their plan from personal feelings is not knowledgeable or helpful, and leads to threads like this.

Look, basically it comes down to this; He asked for help building his chosen engine, a 327, which he has on hand and wants to invest in. He did not post a thread asking for an opinion of what he should build, or why or why not it would be a good/bad investment.

IROCtheRoad

Here is a very good read that you may enjoy

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...g/viewall.html

For what it's worth, I'm building a 302 in the garage right now. Why? Because I want to. For the same amount of money I could have a 383 and have fun with it and what Sofa says (to a point) is very correct - it makes way more sense to build the bigger engine for cheaper.

But that would/could defeat the purpose of our hobby - building what we want to :-)

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

100% agree with what Sofa said...and he convinced me to go with a 350 rather than rebuilding my 305 (Even though now, as a DD, I now realize I should have stuck with the 305). I'm going through $70 a week in gas.

But I also agree 100% with IROCtheROAD. Ours is a hobby, so build what you want. Hobby's by definition are, something we "enjoy", so it's inherantly an emotional choice we make.

1983Chimaera

Interesting that the smallest displacement 302 produced the best peak hp number. I also noticed the 327 and 350 were within 1 hp, so close as to be inconsequential. Good article.

1983Chimaera

One of the reasons I didn't go with a larger displacement, actually. My 327 is getting 27mpg currently, and that's as of last fill up before I got my TCC lockup sorted out. My next fill up will reflect working lockup, and as soon as I can get my Y-pipe ordered my headers should give me a small mpg boost as well. More cubes = thirsty motor.

SumDumbGuy

In the world of hot rodding, I've learned to just "Go with what you feel." You can spend thousands on the biggest and baddest motor you can make....And somebody will always have something better. My first build was a 1963 327 when I was going to college. It took me $4,000 and 4 years to build. It only lasted 3 weeks, but it it was one hell of a motor. Word to the wise, NEVER ask an alcoholic drag car builder to help tune in your car....They tend to forget that it's a street car that was build to stay under 7k rpms...
After that, I built a 4bolt 355 1970 LT-1 clone. I'm happy with it, but I'd take that 327 over it in a heartbeat. It's all personal preference. You're going to catch crap and praise regardless of what you build.

brando54009

im sorry that my thread made people "emotional". I in no way ment for this to happen as i try not to be a confrontational guy. were all hot rodders here in one way or another.


heres another good question just to make some people happy...

will my 91 350 crank fit in my 327 without major modification? will i have to trim the block at all for clearance? It is in fact for sure a "large" journal crank (more like medium but whatever). the bore and the rod length are the same but for some reason i cannot find any reputable consistent data on this subject anywhere.

thank you all for your inputs but from here on out i would not like to see any **** talking and "emotional" typing i.e CAPITALIZING your words, it just makes you seem like your being a dick.

brando54009

also all of these posts and no one has yet to even come close to answering my question so here it is again.

what pistons would you buy if you had to keep a large journal 327 at its stock stroke with stock rods and a .040 overbore?

im also looking to get my compression up as high as possible on the stock double humps

brando54009

just cutting to what we all want to see. this was with, from what i understand, the factory cast 327 crank and both the others had forged cranks

HORSEPOWER NUMBERS
RPM 302 327 350 350 ('71)
3000 167 196 208 199
3300 184 210 232 223
3500 206 232 254 246
3800 233 261 283 275
4000 248 275 298 291
4300 272 297 318 311
4500 283 308 329 324
4800 301 324 341 340
5000 311 333 347 347
5300 326 344 352 355
5500 333 349 353 361
5800 347 347 350 362
6000 350 348 348 361
6300 353 352 348 353
6500 356 347 342 345
6800 356 339 329 332
7000 352 331 312 319

TORQUE NUMBERS
RPM 302 327 350 350 ('71)
3000 292 332 364 349
3300 293 334 369 354
3500 309 348 381 369
3800 322 360 391 379
4000 325 362 391 382
4300 332 363 389 380
4500 331 360 383 378
4800 329 355 373 372
5000 327 350 364 364
5300 323 341 349 352
5500 318 333 337 345
5800 314 314 317 328
6000 307 305 305 316
6300 295 293 290 295
6500 287 281 277 279
6800 275 262 254 257
7000 264 248 234 239

AIRFLOW DATA CFM:
In/Ex In/Ex In/Ex In/Ex
Lift 186 *461 492 487
.050 30/20 30/21 30/22 31/22
.100 58/45 59/46 59/47 59/51
.200 113/87 115/93 115/92 119/102
.300 158/120 164/127 158/117 173/133
.400 190/136 201/155 186/127 207/144
.500 205/140 211/168 200/134 213/146
.600 205/141 212/174 209/137 215/146


*461 heads eliminated for test due to obvious porting; 327 was run with 186 heads.

1gary

I think the two of you might want to go to their prospective corners and take a deep breath.

I will say this Sop.It isn't the first time your style of posting has ruined a thread based on totally on your argumentative methods.You sir should feel very lucky,because anywhere else on the web,site management would not tolerate your disruptive posts effecting the harmony of the forum.It doesn't matter if your right or wrong at some point.It matters more how many people you have Pi$$$ed off.You waver from the facts to personal attacks to undermine creditability of opposing opinions to your own.It is there where you are so,so,wrong in what your doing.I for one have seen this over and over again with you and is the main reason I am posting this on the main forum.Also I am forwarding my post to site management.

One last thing.You say to learn from your mistakes.Your activity has got me to reflect on my own posts and how people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.Well thanks for that I guess.

SumDumbGuy

I hate to burst your bubble Brando, but I don't think the double humps will work for you for very long. Fuelie heads were designed for leaded gas, they don't have hardened valve seats. You can run lead additive, not sure how long they'll last though. You'd have to ask someone with more experience in that field. Keep your eye on Ebay. You might get lucky and find a rebuilt set of 2.02s for cheap.
As for the forged crank, not sure. My 63 was forged, can't speak for all of them. Since you're replacing bearings and stuff anyway, pull the crank out and see. Check the parting line in the crank - if it's wide, it's forged, thin is cast. Or, stand the crank up on the end the flywheel attaches to and hit it with a hammer. If it rings like a bell, it's forged. If it's "dead" sounding, it's cast.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

No, won't fit. It's because of the rear main seal style. '68 is 2-piece RMS, '86-up is 1-piece RMS. You can get an adapter to put a 2-piece RMS crank in a 1-piece RMS block, but not the other way around.

So what pistons & rods would I use? I'd pick the pistons for my intended use. If I wasn't going to spray, I'd use hypereutectics. I'd probably want ARP rod bolts and probably have the big ends resized, but first I'd check to see if Summit or Jegs had a set of decent rods with ARP bolts that would cost about the same as having ARP rod bolts and resizing done to the stock rods.

I wouldn't spend a dime on double hump heads and but get a set of Vortecs with the appropriate intake from sdparts.com instead.

Consider the title fixed.

1983Chimaera

RHS has some nice Vortec heads as well, a bit cheaper than the SD ones as well. They also have the dual intake pattern so you can run the Vortec or standard intake bolt patterns (Vortec is still highly recommended).

brando54009

i tried looking at there site but its buggy. is there anywhere else i can find them?

brando54009

thanks a lot for the info. this actually helped me lol


i hope i have not created any problems with anyone i'm just new to this whole scene and i found it a bit harsh when i was jumped on right off the bat

Tom 400 CFI

I don't know if that is fact. When I went from my stock 170hp 305, to my ~300hp 400, I actually gained one peak mpg, from 24, to 25. Obviously, when I beat on it, the 400 could and would use more gas b/c it was faster, but driving steady state highway, I actually picked up fuel economy w/the bigger motor.

Sort of like how that article showed only 1 hp from 327 to 350...all depends on the circumstances but a larger engine doesn't necessarily condemn you to poor mileage.

EDIT: just read the article and think it's kind of dumb for the discussion at hand. THey put a smaller cam in the larger engien...that is how they ended up w/such close hp numbers. That combo will provide a better street engine than the small cube/big cam. And for the same $$ the big cube, big cam combo would provide the most tq and hp. Oh well.

brando54009

yea i went back and reread it and noticed that too. but really the cams aren't that wildly different. the other thing is they went with an after-market crank in the 350 and kept the stock crank in the 327 to thats another difference that i kind of think levels the field

from what I've learned its more about how much torque you are putting out. if you have 2 motors that make the same hp but one makes more tq the one with more tq will usually get better mileage

1gary

I bought stroker profiled Scat 5.7 press fit rods with ARP bolts which I found are really decent rods at a good price.Got them from Competition Products which you might want to check them out.It really doesn't matter if your using them for a stroker or not.

1983Chimaera

Very true, my 327 is only making about 315hp, but it's around 400 lb-ft of torque. The extra torque means the engine isn't having to work as hard to move the car from a dead stop. Have no idea what my city mileage is yet, have to wait a couple tanks of gas to get a decent average. I know the 2.73 rear gears I have aren't helping much, but before I got my lockup working my all-highway driving tank was 27mpg, and that's still with the restrictive exhaust manifolds. My hope is a city average around 20+, and highway around 28+ once the headers and full 3" exhaust is in place.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

IF, they are the same CID. Mighty big "if", that.

OTOH, more inches will make more torque, every time, guaranteed, take it to the bank, no other outcome possible, if all else is equal. (compression, cam, induction, heads, $$$$$, etc.)

brando54009

a number is a number my old 450hp turbo 2.0 is the same as a 450hp big block. now with that being said there are a million more things to this equation like reciprocating mass and how well your car holds speed and drag coefficient's and things of that nature along with where your motor makes that power and how it delivers it, weather its a carburetor or a fuel injection system and how good your spark is and all of that.

but in a general sense you are correct, the bigger motor has an easier time making that number

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Turbo vs non-turbo != all else equal

Different carb, FI, etc != all else equal

Different reciprocating mass != all else equal

Etc.



All else equal means ALL ELSE EQUAL. Only the one thing you're wanting to analyze is different.

1gary

The premiss of a 2.0 being = to a BBC is misguided.Provide documentation of a 2.0 at what RPM with 450 HP.AND what that cost to be built.I have serious doubts...............The old adage applies to this post:

brando54009

one=1 its the same as if i type it out or write it by hand, a number is just that a number. yes they will make power at different times and it was a turbo motor. but in the end a number is a number.

also please tell me that you guys know that imports have been able to make good numbers for quite some time now.

as for picture proof that was many computers and about 5 places ago so i have lost pretty much everything but i could show you dyno graphs of other similar builds.

btw it was a $7000 setup including trands and diff and axels and all.

brando54009

what im saying is that if you want good mileage than going with the lightest parts available isnt always the best way

reasoning:

-when you let off the throttle with a heavy bottom end it will want to hold its pace

-when you let off with a lightened bottom end it will want to immediately drop to idle therefore requiring you to open it up again. i saw this first hand on my talon when i went with the lightest flywheel i could get.

these can be replicated with big heavy wheels vs. light weight wheels and so on and so forth.


but anyways... still haven't really gotten a response yet

1gary

Soooo,dance aside.You have no proof.Rough estimate,even if it was true, is about 2.5 hp per cubic inch.................for a backyard shade tree mechanic.Naww.LOL,send in your resume to some of the Indy car teams who with all their tech and money are not achieving that.And for 7,000 grand no less!!!.

Damm it.Now I have fallen into the off topic trap.What in the hell does this have to do with the O.P's thread???. If I was the O/P of this thread,I'd be telling you to get the hell off my front lawn.

For my part in this exchange to the O/P,I wanted to say I'm sorry.Just I needed to point out for the record that if something doesn't make sense,it generally doesn't.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Gary, Brando IS the OP. He has merely chosen to veer off of his original topic and into this .... other .... stuff.

Brando,

I don't think the whole fallacy of your arguments has sunk in yet.

Look closely at the words ALL ELSE EQUAL. Consider that phrase one word at a time. ALL means every single thing, with no exceptions. ELSE means that apart from the ONE thing that is allowed to be NOT equal, EVERY other thing is equal. EQUAL means that if you put a light flywheel on one, you put a light flywheel on the other. If you put a turbo on one, you put a turbo on the other. If you put an ignition system with good spark on one, you put it on the other.

If you don't do that, a valid comparison between 2 options is not possible. It devolves into meaningless drivel.

The purpose of the mental exercise is to understand the effect of making ONE change to the overall system, and figuring out what effect THAT ONE thing has on it. The reason for doing this is to determine which factors produce the results you want, and which ones either have no effect at all or in fact have the opposite effect to what is desired.

What were the results you got when you did the 2-column exercise, way back up at the top? As you saw by doing it, that's such a great way to clear out the mind and get focused on the heart of the matter, and it's so simple to do, it's amazing that people don't do it more often. We haven't heard yet how that worked out for you.

brando54009

i don't have direct proof of my build nor am i making you believe me because frankly you don't know me so there for you should not be expected to believe me but i can direct you to a little thing called google and youtube and dsm tuners and mitsu style and the internet and real life standing in front of the dyno watching countless cars pull off making 350+ hp. just so you know because it seems as though you might be stuck a little bit on v8's and might have gained a small amount of tunnel vision imports have well surpassed the 1000hp mark as seen here by the guy who built my long block:


heres another car of theres its a 93+ rx7 with a 2.4 liter bottom end and a 2.0 head and makes roughly 1100 hp


now i know that THESE ARE NOT MY CARS but i am just showing everyone on here that yes imports do in fact have the ability to make power and go fast.

i also like how you people think im some hack job back yard hill billy. im not... i've had stuff done by shops and i've put in the time behind the wrench on other things. I've had shops machine and assemble my motors until i could assemble them myself, i have 4g63's still pushing 18+ pounds through 20g's and 35r's even 4 years after i put them together. I've blueprinted every motor i have ever assembled and gone so far as to take out my caliper to align an exhaust gasket correctly.

now sofa:

i understand that there is no replacement for displacement and that a bigger motor will always have the ability to out power a smaller one but at the same time i have seen the results of what i have done personally with fuel mileage builds on imports and it always works the same. More torque with less sprung weight and more rolling weight and you end up with better mileage that is if you can keep your fuel consumption to power the motor as low as possible and keep your foot out of it (but what hor rodder really builds a car to go slow in the end anyways). so here to end this discussion (i dont see it as an argument per se' just an exchanging of knowlege) i will call a draw you can go with what your saying and ill go with saying almost the exact same thing. not saying your wrong im just not getting anything tangible from you.

btw i didnt do the column thing because im not going to sit there and write things out but i completely understand where you are coming from im just not easily swayed when you answer a question not asked... which is where this thread has gone... not answering the question... yet again


remember boys when you assume you make an *** out of u m e.

1gary

You do know you have this coming.The sarcasm u-tube and alike..........

I don't care about you.Really I don't.You've posted in a false pretends about a tile of a thread having nothing to do with your posts,debates,theories,topic unrelated to this forum of Thirdgens and engines and then go off on a excursion of 200 cc engines.

It is a self severing rant circus that the clown show wasn't that good.

I posted on here to honestly help you,who by YOUR standards knows it all anyways.

I'm leaving with 30+ yrs in BBC and SBC's with a lost count at 30 yrs in drag race engines and a background as a engine tester/dyno rm tech for GM Chevy.

Broke my trust in a believability.I'm packing my stuff and leaving this mess behind.

What a total waste of time it surely has been.

brando54009

im sorry that the lot of you are so sensitive to having a little discussion. its all ok though because you don't really care to actually answer my question you just feed into the other stuff all i got from you was a just go into it blindly and all i got from other people was the same. sofa has so far been about the only one to come close in saying that i shouldn't bother with it which I'm not, nor am i messing around with these little motors, im picking up my 454 hopefully this weekend if i get time

I'm sorry if i caused anyone and mental frustration issues or breakdowns. I'm not trying to justify imports nor will i mention them any further than this, theres a reason im back into v8's i just found it odd that they were questioned in this day and age. nor am i questioning the credibility of anyone because if i were to then there would be no point in me even posting this thread

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

The problem is the old Gen I smallblocks are garbage as delivered from the factory. hamstrung by either old technology or CAFE/emissions regulations depending on the year. The newer they got, the better they were. I'd never build another 86 and older block again, and I'd sure as hell never build a 4 inch bore block with anything less than a 3.75 inch stroke unless I was specifically trying to build some kind of high strung road racing motor, and that's not because I believe in the short stroke myths, but just for less piston speed and therefore bore wear for sustained high RPM operation.

Really it's just silly, IMO, to build any 350 these days. You need expensive aftermarket parts and hopefully a longer stroke to make it worth it. And they are decent after that, but everyone thinks you can throw some camel humps on a 327 and make 450hp NA... and it just doesnt work that way.