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Vortecs age-cracking?

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Old 12-10-2012, 03:42 PM
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Vortecs age-cracking?

Is it just me, or is anyone else noticing more of this? All I'm seeing suggests that extended service lives are heat-killing the exhaust seats. In the last month I've pulled 5, and only 2 could be saved. As in most other regards, I'm not seeing any advantage to either 906s or 062s.
Old 12-10-2012, 04:50 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

I have heard some castings used in the heavier duty trucks got better valve seats compared to light duty trucks. Not sure if thats true or not
Old 12-10-2012, 05:09 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

We probably should get into that aspect. I have 4 Vortecs on my bench. 2 are from a '96 1500. The other 2 are from a 2500 C6P ( 8-lug ) In this instance, the 1500 heads are the cracked-seats, but have a 70-degree throat cut under the 45-degree exhaust seats. Not good, but... The other pair would seem to have had seats done. Only they haven't. And under the 45-degree seat there's a 90-degree mis-matched mess. Pics soon. These were discussed in HotRod magazine around Y2K. To fix these you must do larger exhaust valves, and you still won't get as good of results as playing with the 70-degree heads. However, the "HD" heads are not casted any thicker / heavier, and both styles were made in both casting numbers. If you're wanting 450 HP from a 350, you need to start with 70-degree versions. Trying to fix the 90s with 1.625" valves is risky because of the basic casting, and you sure can't combing these largest valves with having new seats done, you'll hit water for certain.
Old 12-10-2012, 05:28 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

Originally Posted by Atilla the Fun
Is it just me, or is anyone else noticing more of this? All I'm seeing suggests that extended service lives are heat-killing the exhaust seats. In the last month I've pulled 5, and only 2 could be saved. As in most other regards, I'm not seeing any advantage to either 906s or 062s.
I can't comment on the cracking issue. I purchased my Vortecs new, put over 60 000 miles on them and now they're retired (sitting on the shelf) however there's no evidence of any damage caused by the tough life they're endured.
As for the 906 vs 062, I lifted this from the Sallee Chevrolet website.

Please Note: The casting number myth debunked:
The myth is that there is a difference in the head performance produced by these two castings.
This myth was started by some Magazines that didn't do their homework before publishing their articles.
This is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So sayith the Grand Wizard GM and his Apprentice Wizard Chevrolet.
10239906 casting has one large single hump.
12558062 casting has 3 small humps.
If either of these two castings have not been altered by GM and the part number changed from 12558060 or altered by someone else (previous owner, etc.), the heads produced by either casting will be identical except for the external cosmetic difference. Both castings are used to make the 12558060 Vortec heads which are the true unaltered Vortec heads.
Heads from both castings come out of their cast IDENTICAL except for the minor cosmetic external differences!!!!!!!!

You can make an informed choice based on that.
Old 12-10-2012, 08:07 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

Not long after the L31 Vortec head was introduced, there was much made of the supposed difference in flow between the Vortec heads that came with the hardened exhaust seat inserts as opposed to the heads that had induction hardened seats. This was largely due to an incorrect, though oft-repeated statement made by a car magazine that said in essence the c/n 906 head was to be avoided because of the exhaust seat insert being vastly inferior to the heads with induction hardened exhaust seats.
Despite this having been being dispelled any number of times, it still surfaces now and then. But like is often the case, there's a grain of truth to this. On c/n 906 Vortec heads having the hardened exhaust seat insert (not all c/n 906 heads used the insert), there can be a lip made by the seat where it's pressed into the head. If there's a lip it can be blended and smoothed to improve the flow using nothing more than a Dremel. This is a common procedure that's often done in performance builds- regardless of whether the seats are inserts or induction hardened or unhardened. And also on the c/n 906 heads having the insert, the seat was machined with a single angle instead of a three angle seat as seen on Vortec heads having the induction hardened exhaust seat. The wider seat was used to better transfer heat from the valve into the head/cooling system. Three angle valve seats are the norm these days, done routinely by almost every machine shop. So if the seats are reground during a valve job, the single angle seat can be made into a three angle seat without a problem.
So both the c/n 906 and c/n 062 heads have virtually the same performance potential. In fact c/n 906 heads having the hardened inserts are actually preferred by some performance engine builders, mainly for marine applications. Later production c/n 906 heads stopped using exhaust seat inserts and at some point, all Vortec head exhaust seats were induction hardened.
I found this article on crankshaft coalition
Old 12-10-2012, 08:20 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

Some 906 heads were used in 3/4 ton and up natural gas trucks, and received the hardened exhaust seats. These are the only Vortec heads to have these seats, and as stated above, has minimal performance effect. Otherwise the 062 and 906 heads are identical.

As for cracking, I have pulled 5 sets in junkyards off of various size trucks, and found all but one single head to cracked. The most common place is in the center bolt hole, but I have seen at least 3 heads cracked in one of the two center exhaust valve seats. Researching more about the problem online, I have found that the factory Vortecs are simply too thinly cast, leading to their being prone to such cracking. The best solution is to use an aftermarket Vortec such as the Scoggin-Dickey or RHS Vortecs. they have thicker castings, can be purchased with the traditional SBC intake bolt pattern as well as the Vortec pattern, and the Scoggin-Dickey Vortecs come in various intake runner sizes, machined for higher valve lift, and larger valves.

As for the exact cause of the cracking, online research points to overheating. This is purely speculative though, and I have no first hand experience to corroborate the claim. I have wondered while pulling them in the junkyard if it was possibly a bolt-pattern problem, and have tried to pull them carefully by easing off pressure on bolts in a alternating center-out method, but the heads still ended up cracked.

I for one won't be investing any more money in factory Vortec heads, and will be sourcing mine from the aftermarket.
Old 12-10-2012, 08:29 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

Would the hardened seats be less prone to cracking around those areas? Transfer heat better? Were the trucks you pulled them out of, were they 3/4 tons at all? Just curious
Old 12-10-2012, 08:38 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

I never came across any of the LNG trucks, but I did pull from gasoline 3/4 tons. Can't say if the hardened seats would have made a difference on the valve seat cracking, but I'm not a machinist mate. But since out of 10 heads personally pulled, 8 had cracks in the center bolt holes easily visible without fluxing, 2 of those had an additional crack in an exhaust valve seat (also easily visible), 1 had just the exhaust seat crack and 1 was a non-cracked (at least visually) head, I'm thinking it best to avoid factory Vortecs altogether. None of the vehicles looked overly beat on, the oil residue in each looked fine and didn't smell burnt or mixed with coolant, the cylinders looked fine, and the mileage wasn't exorbitant.
Old 12-10-2012, 09:04 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

I agree the price for sdpp vortecs already machined for more lift are hard to beat. No sense in using factory castings unless you are lucky enough
Old 12-11-2012, 01:13 AM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

Pretty much. And even if you don't need the extra lift or other goodies, the RHS heads are still a bargain over stock Vortecs, they have the thicker castings, and they're drilled for both intake manifold bolt patterns.
Old 12-11-2012, 08:19 AM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

It is correct that the heads with the better seats and the worse throat cut didn't have much affect on HP in stock form. But who here is happy with 250 HP? Who here runs the stock L31 cam? Who here combines Vortecs with stock exhaust manifolds? That's why the worse flow made little difference. But it is no difficulty to prove that flow was and is slightly but consistently measurably worse with the 90-degree throats. Even easier to prove that this still holds true after doing 1.60" exhaust valves with 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 cuts in both 70 degree and 90 degree versions. At higher elevations, a well-done 1.94 / 1.60 Vortec that had 70-degree throats can benefit from a single-pattern cam. But I'd never want to run a single-pattern with Vortecs that started with 90-degree throats. No sense discussing the aftermarket Vortecs, because they can't be had in still-useable condition for $40 each. Especially no sense discussing the RHS Vortecs, since they've been discontinued. If you're okay with giving up 10-20 free horses, then pay no heed to the little details.
Old 12-11-2012, 02:49 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

There is no difference in the casting of the heads, only that some had inserted hardened seats for 3/4 ton up LNG operation. As stated quite clearly above, there is no casting difference between the 063 and 906 heads. Numerous magazines have dyno'ed the two casting and found no performance difference whatsoever. This also includes the heads with the hardened seats, and still found no appreciable difference, even on performance builds. It's a non-issue.

What is still a problem is the inherent prone to cracking. $40 wasted on a cracked head is still money wasted.

I wasn't aware RHS had canceled the cast iron Vortecs, but I imagine they haven't gone the way of the Twinkie yet. and you still have the Scoggin-Dickey Vortecs, which as I mentioned already have significant upgrades and thicker casting at a decent price. If you're going to spend the money and effort and money to upgrade, why not do it right? Especially given the evidence with factory Vortecs?
Old 12-11-2012, 03:00 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

Summit makes vortecs too... Or well sells someones vortec heads under their summit name
Old 12-11-2012, 03:15 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

Jegs and Summit both have re-branded aftermarket Vortecs, both with the thicker castings. The price isn't that much more than for a set of new GM Vortecs, but without the thin castings.
Old 12-11-2012, 05:34 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

Originally Posted by 1983Chimaera
$40 wasted on a cracked head is still money wasted.

I wasn't aware RHS had canceled the cast iron Vortecs, but I imagine they haven't gone the way of the Twinkie yet. and you still have the Scoggin-Dickey Vortecs, which as I mentioned already have significant upgrades and thicker casting at a decent price. If you're going to spend the money and effort and money to upgrade, why not do it right? Especially given the evidence with factory Vortecs?
Because most factory Vortecs don't crack. Mostly those run hot under load for any length of time. Why would you buy the head if it's cracked? You can see any cracks as soon as you pull the head and scrape the carbon around the exhaust valves. No yard makes you pay before pulling the head. I've been to dozens, from California to Florida, none ask for money first. S-D offers Vortecs modified for more lift, which is dumb since the intake port flow stalls hard past 0.475" actual valve lift. Those are no thicker than stock. You don't need machining or longer valves or offset locks to use the ZZ4 cam with virgin Vortecs, just the right choice of springs, retainers and seals. That's actually about the best possible match for most average torque and matching their most-effective RPM ranges anyway. It's almost like they intended it. And you're taking this far beyond the intent of this thread. If you can't grasp the advantages of using used Vortecs, then please go start another thread. I've done a 400 HP 350 for under $500 using used Vortecs, and it now has nearly 45K miles on it since I built it. If that means nothing to you, then you're definitely barking in the wrong thread.
Old 12-11-2012, 05:39 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

Originally Posted by 1983Chimaera
Jegs and Summit both have re-branded aftermarket Vortecs, both with the thicker castings. The price isn't that much more than for a set of new GM Vortecs, but without the thin castings.
Also without ALL of the awesome intake flow / swirl that makes true Vortecs slightly better performers in true street applications. Give up 10 cfm at all intake lifts? No thanks. We should NOT have to use swirl-polished, under-cut, 1-piece, back-cut stainless valves to equal stocvk flow when those same valves will pit true Vortecs up another 12 cfm, proven by myself on a then-new SuperFlow 1020 with every option, freshly calibrated by a SF technician. At risk of the moderators reprimanding me, allow me to clue you in on a fact you seem unaware of. I may have been inactive the last several months, but in TGO I am the god of Vortecs. And I yield to nobody, ever.
Old 12-12-2012, 07:05 AM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

Im not sure I understand the intent of this thread either.

I am enjoying the information from it, but it started out sounding like you (Atilla) were putting down using the factory heads because of them being prone to cracking. Others probably did as well, that being the reason they started bringing up aftermarket thicker vortec castings.
Old 12-12-2012, 09:41 AM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

No just checking to see if anyone else is noticing cracked heads. Appears it is a great possibility to find cracked heads. They are best bang for buck for mild applications but i know this...i dont want to go searching for heads to find an uncracked set, spending hrs pulling heads on old motors in a yard several times to find they are busted, when i could spend 360 bucks for new pair from scoggin dickey already machined.
You may not need to machine but at very least if i grab a used head from a junkyard i am gonna disassemble, clean and inspect, mill surface deck flat, check valves and seats, replace seals and inspect guides. After all that you may have 100$ more into them or worse find out they have bad guides or bad valve job or something else that costs money to repair.
Old 12-12-2012, 03:33 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

Cracking aside (and I believe Atilla has his answer) the above mentioned reasons are why I went the aftermarket route when it came time to do something about my OEM Vortec heads. Having already spent dollars on them for screw in studs, new seals, springs, etc. and some general machine work (ie. cut for flatness), when the time came for new guides I couldn't justify spending any more them. Gone are the days when I would do my own valve job with somebody else's equipment.
Amortizing the cost of the machine work into the purchase price of new RHS Vortecs, I not only have better flowing heads (also gone are the days when I'd pick up a die grinder and have at the ports myself) but I still have the old Vortecs as a project base or for re-sale if and when I need them.
For a guy like our thread starter, who's obviously very hands on and with adequete resources (like machine shop tooling), taking a few hours to head to the junk yard and building something out of it probably makes sense.
Old 12-12-2012, 04:23 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
No just checking to see if anyone else is noticing cracked heads. Appears it is a great possibility to find cracked heads. They are best bang for buck for mild applications but i know this...i dont want to go searching for heads to find an uncracked set, spending hrs pulling heads on old motors in a yard several times to find they are busted, when i could spend 360 bucks for new pair from scoggin dickey already machined.
You may not need to machine but at very least if i grab a used head from a junkyard i am gonna disassemble, clean and inspect, mill surface deck flat, check valves and seats, replace seals and inspect guides. After all that you may have 100$ more into them or worse find out they have bad guides or bad valve job or something else that costs money to repair.
Pretty much half of the same conclusion I came to...
Old 12-12-2012, 04:25 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

Originally Posted by skinny z
Cracking aside (and I believe Atilla has his answer) the above mentioned reasons are why I went the aftermarket route when it came time to do something about my OEM Vortec heads. Having already spent dollars on them for screw in studs, new seals, springs, etc. and some general machine work (ie. cut for flatness), when the time came for new guides I couldn't justify spending any more them. Gone are the days when I would do my own valve job with somebody else's equipment.
Amortizing the cost of the machine work into the purchase price of new RHS Vortecs, I not only have better flowing heads (also gone are the days when I'd pick up a die grinder and have at the ports myself) but I still have the old Vortecs as a project base or for re-sale if and when I need them.
For a guy like our thread starter, who's obviously very hands on and with adequete resources (like machine shop tooling), taking a few hours to head to the junk yard and building something out of it probably makes sense.
Aaaaaaaand there's the other half!

By the way...To quote Denis Leary "The last time someone declared themselves GOD on this planet we nailed them to a cross."
Old 12-12-2012, 04:39 PM
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Re: Vortecs age-cracking?

this turned into a dumb thread.

sorry to the God of used vortecs.

buy some real heads.
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