Juve88GTA

Hey guys I need help.
I'll try to keep it short. 88 T/A GTA 350ci 5.7L TPI.
It has fuel pressure 40psi, 50+psi when cranking.
It has spark, new coil, new cap and rotor, new pick up coil.
The injectors have 16+ ohms and pulsate when cranking.
Timing should be good enough to get it going.
It starts for about 2 seconds with starting fluid.
Any suggestions? Can you guys tell me what else to check for.

I apologize if this is an old thread.

iroczjoe

if it starts for only 2 seconds with ether something is wrong. what do you mean timing SHOULD be good enough to start? did you do something with the timing?

IrocRoadRacer

Is the maf sensor hooked up?

iroczjoe

it crossed my mind that you may have replaced the distributor and have the gear in the wrong position .......just an idea

Juve88GTA

The MAF is Plugged in and hooked on.
I replaced the Pickup coil so I did messed around with the timing, I put the engine in TDC and pointed the distributor to cyl#1. I don't have a timing light so the timing is not perfect I might be a couple degrees off but it should start.

NCC-2569

iTrader: (1)

Perhaps your VATS module is shot.

Juve88GTA

If it's the VATS module would it still crank and have pulsations to the injectors?
I thought the VATS shut down the starter and injectors.

NCC-2569

iTrader: (1)

I remember cases where the engine would start up for a moment and then die when the VATS module was defective.

Juve88GTA

Is the there a way to know if it's the VATS module before I replace it? A code or something.

manolis1969

did you say it starts for two seconds with starting fluid? Does it start at all without the starter fluid?

Juve88GTA

I kinda does start but it dies right away, I would say that the rpm goes to 1200 and it dies. Thats without starting fluid and only sometimes

saldav420

Fuel pressure regulator, did you test the psi when it was on or off

saldav420

Also try checking your fuses especially the ECM fuse located near rad or fender

Juve88GTA

I don't think is the fuel pressure regulator, I've heard that when in goes the fuel gets sucked through the vacuum, but not sure.

I will check the ECM fuse next to see what happens.

saldav420

Check your timing, move it a little every time you crank it. has the fuel pump been replaced?

Juve88GTA

The timing is good, I moved the distributor cap thats how I got it to start for 2 seconds.

manolis1969

stick the fuel pressure gauge on the schraeder valve..prime ur fuel pump and see what happens...if the pressure very slowly creeps down then its normal..However if the pressure goes down steadily then grab the return line and squeeze it so no gas goes passed it..prime again while ur pinching..if the gauge stays steady then its ur regulator if it goes down then its either your fuel pump or your injectors are leaking

Juve88GTA

I used the Pressure gauge to see if it even had pressure and it does 40psi when primed and it does go down very slow (nothing to consider steady) I would say it holds and it goes up to 55ish on crank.
.

manolis1969

thats good pressure..
Well if you have spark and fuel and compression..then just grab ur dizzy as someone is cranking and turn it until she fires

Juve88GTA

SO… I bought one of those code readers that make the check engine blink, I'm a little confused, it said is supposed to blink 3 times with a code 12 (system check), but after the 3rd code 12 it keeps giving me the same code 12 which is also "The distributor is not sending a signal to the ECM". But I'm not sure if it's stuck in the system check or is actually giving me the diagnostic. I also got a code 46 which is "Faulty VATS". I only got this once and never again.
Anyone knows whats going on here? if it's the distributor not sending a signal how can I fix that.

saldav420

I think you just found your problem, the V.A.T.S that kills your injectors. their is a video on YouTube on how to bypass the V.A.T.S

Juve88GTA

I think the VATS was an old code, I do have pulsation to the injectors and it does crank.
The bypass I think is only if the cylinder breaks or theres a problem wit the key, mine works great (new cylinder proper resistance on the key). If its anything with the VATS is probably the module not sending the signal to the ECM but I doubt that since I'm getting a pulsations and the starter works.

saldav420

Code 12 will blink 3 times then pause and restart again. Did code 46 come after code 12 then 12 again?

W.E.G.

So, clear all codes, disconnect/re-connect battery, and run the check again?

If its still throwing a VATS code then, it wouldn't be an "old code."

manolis1969

if i remember correctly..the vats either cuts off ignition power and or stops the injectors from pulsing..you said you have pulsing and ur motor cranks..

the ecm gets its informtion from your module..you are getting spark, right?I would suggest you reset all ur codes like suggested and see what happens..also try re-diagnosing everything from scratch..or have a fresh set of eyes look at it too

saldav420

I agree^ reset the ECM wait like 10 minutes before you reconnect the negative cable.

Juve88GTA

I've done that unintentionally to save battery power and to prevent shorts.
Today I will run all the codes again disconnect a few fuses to see if it gives me the right codes.
Thanks a lot guys for your feed back, I feel I'm getting closer to see her on the road again!

Oddie65

I know this may sound bizzare, and I probably don't know what I'm talking about, haha, but try pumping it when you start it and see what that does. I don't know why, but on my 86 iroc, even though it's tpi, after the first start of the day I have to pump it just a little to get her to fire. New fuel pump too, so it's not a bad pump.

Juve88GTA

The VATS code only came on once, I didn't get it anymore until I unplugged the fuse to see if it came up again, and it did. Plugged it back in and nothing. So It must have been an old code.
I also tried pulling the throttle while cranking and at times it game me a 2 second high rev. but then it died. Also tried a constant stream of starting fluid and it wouldn't stay running.

Oddie65

Hey, I have an idea. This exact thing happened to me last summer, and I don't know why I forgot about it. Under the hood, on the passenger side, there should be a wire, and it should have a fuse near where the battery is located. That's the fuse for the fuel pump. Check and see if that fuse is blown.

NCC-2569

iTrader: (1)

There shouldn't be any code about the VATS if it's ok.
Try the bypass and get the module out of the way for as long as you're diagnosing.
Those two seconds of running seem to be very reproducible without being much different from time to time, which suggests something is actively killing the fuel supply. Since the pump is delivering decent pressure it can't be the pump, the fuel filter, the regulator or the injectors (except all die at ONCE).
That only leaves the ECM and the VATS, IMHO.
Perhaps someone here is willing to lend you his ECM and PROM to rule the ECM itself out and then there's only the VATS bypass left to do.

Juve88GTA

The car had an issue with VATS before, but it was fixed by replacing the ignition cylinder.
Would it still crank if it's the VATS?
I noticed that when it cranks the security light flashes and I don't remember if thats normal, it comes on when I turn the key to the on position but it goes off in a second or two and then flashes when I try to start the car. Not so sure if thats normal or if it's an indication that something is wrong.

NCC-2569

iTrader: (1)

That light behavior used to freak me out a couple of times as well. It's normal.

Juve88GTA

Update: I got a VATS delete chip from PCMforless… It still won't start.

jas2730

iTrader: (7)

Did you remove the plug wires from the cap while you were messing around with it?

Juve88GTA

New cap and rotor.

jas2730

iTrader: (7)

Are you positive that you put them back on in the correct firing order? Simple mistake but happens more than you would think.

Juve88GTA

18436572 clockwise. thats what it is, right?

jas2730

iTrader: (7)

Correct. But i'm asking if you've double checked to see if you've made a mistake and gotten them out of order. Your statement saying you got it to fire by moving the distributor should tell you it's a timing issue. I'm sure you either made a mistake reconnecting your plug wires or your off on the tdc position.

Juve88GTA

I'm gonna triple check the wires… and try to figure out the timing.

jas2730

iTrader: (7)

[quote=Juve88GTA;5507630]I'm gonna triple check the wires… and try to figure out the timing.[/

If it fires your close. If you find you have them in the correct order try moving them all 1 position clockwise, if that doesn't get it then try 1 position counter clockwise from your original starting point.

Juve88GTA

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out this timing stuff…
I put the engine in TDC, point the rotor to the first cylinder wire, rotate the distributor clockwise and counter clockwise a little at the time but nothing. And I also tried moving the wires one position

Fuel pressure at 40psi
It does have spark
Injectors pulsate and I even try to disconnect an injector at a time and crank to see if there was a bad injector but no.

Any other ideas?

dreamcruiser_1

This should be interesting to find what is wrong because I am having the same issue with my 91 TPI 350

jas2730

iTrader: (7)

When you've gotten it to fire does it run rough and backfire?

Juve88GTA

Today I focused on the timing, and it turns out that I was 180 degrees off. After I corrected it I tried to start it and for a couple of times it sounded like it wanted to start but it didn't, now I need an extra set of hands that can help turn the ignition while I turn the distributor.

PS.
Just wanna post this for all that are having the same issue. Someone told me that the TDC mark on the balancer may have moved and that I needed to figure it out using a piston stop tool, I looked in every parts store and couldn't find one so I bought a cheap spark plug and made one myself. I haven't use it yet, I'm confident that the TDC mark is correct by looking at the valve movement.

tomlyons

give me an email at tomlyons354@gmail.com and i can help you thanks tom

Juve88GTA

Well, today I found out the mark on the damper which points to TDC was about 5 degrees off. After that I messed round wit the distributor cap and it gave signs of life but it does not run yet…

saldav420

Prime it a couple of times, spray some starter fluid in throttle body. But before you crank it reset ecm. It doesn't hurt to try unless you tried that already.

Juve88GTA

I don't know what else to do… I've done everything twice; check fuel pressure, spark, injectors, timing… but the car just sputters and stops. I'm out of ideas.

bwiencek

Have you checked timing with a timing light?

Since it sounds like you're on your own and are fighting unknown issues - go down to the parts store or harbor freight and pick up a timing light and a "bump switch" or "starter switch" so that you can run both by yourself and a "piston stop" that threads into the spark plug hole.


Next - pull #1 spark plug and install the spark plug piston stop. SLOWLY rotate the engine by hand (socket on the balancer bolt) until it stops against the piston stop and mark the balancer at the "0" mark on the timing tab. Next SLOWLY rotate the engine the opposite way and once it stops mark the balancer at the "0" on the timing tab. Measure between the two spots and then exactly half-way between them is the exact TDC mark (which should also be your harmonic balancer's line if nothing has moved/slipped) - if it's not exact then mark a new TDC mark on the balancer - if it's WAY off then likely your balancer has slipped and you need a new one or you'll be having more problems later....

Now that you have TDC - pull the spark plug piston stop. Rotate the engine by hand with a finger over the #1 spark plug hole until you feel the air coming out of the cylinder - then move to your marked TDC. The engine is now on TDC on the compression stroke.

Check the distributor and the rotor should be pointing at the #1 cylinder, and the 'point' on the shaft should be just past the 'point' on the pickup - if it's not rotate the distributor base until it's just before the shaft's point. Next mark the base of the distributor where the rotor is pointing to on the outside of the distributor. install the cap. The terminal that lined up with your mark on the distributor body is your #1 cylinder. Install the #1 spark plug on that terminal and continue around in a clockwise direction hooking up the plug wires according to the firing order ( 18436572 )

Now that you've got the static timing set (it should be close enough to start... BUT) hook the bump-starter up and then the timing light up to #1 wire. Unplug the timing wire (SPOUT connector) Turn the key on "run" and then point the timing light at the timing tab and hold the bump-starter down and see where the light fires and if it's not close to the base timing spec (6*?? - check the manual) then turn the distributor and then re-check until you get the timing at the recommended base timing. Lock the distributor down and then re-check the timing. If all is OK then plug the connector back in.

Assuming that it hasn't started at this point and you've gotten a steady flash of the timing light when setting timing we can start looking at fueling problems. Get a fuel primer bottle:

and then fill it with gasoline. Next give the engine a little shot of fuel. Pull off a vacuum hose that's "post throttle body" and hook it up to the bottle's spout. With the key on hit the bump start switch and the engine should fire off - once it does feed it a little fuel at a time and see if you can keep it running for 15-20 seconds at least - that will verify that you've still got good compression, good spark and mechanically everything is fine.

NEXT: Diagnosing the fuel injector delivery problems... Let us know when you get to that point and I or someone can jump in with next steps to verify that you're getting injector pulses (NOID light is handy here) and the proper fuel pressure (which I think you've already verified somewhat - but I haven't heard if you've pulled the vacuum line off and tested pressure and then applied 15" of vacuum with a hand pump and verified pressure drop)